Adding Genuine Progression;if Not Removing Serration, How About This?

[Innocent_Flower]

So, the comunity essentialy has two camps.

 

one camp argue that reducing the amount of damage players can do would remove a lot of the progression; Mods like serration are needed to separate the new from the old, That forma is there to make the weapon stronger, and that being OP might be their right as they have worked towards it. They are right.

 

The second camp, but by no means a lesser camp, argue that warframe's progression is bloated; weapon modding is all about adding damage to your weapon to combat enemies who have health and Armour added to them in a pointless cycle of ever increasing numbers which,if uneven, is a bit messy; That if we want true progression, we need to fight more varied enemies with more utility focused mods on harder hitting. They are also right. 

 

I'l get onto missions and unlocks in a moment, let me just try to tackle the problem of weapons and scaling first. 

 

Weapon Mods and progression

 

Now, there will probably be a 'best build' , no matter how you do it. It's not a question, but the answer should be; We shouldn't care. Secondly; A player can be overpowered without additional damage (not to say we're getting rid of damage) and there's a few dastardly examples in pvp to go with that claim (glaxion users; Delete 'system 32') But what we don't want is for a player to be overly-overpowered. Instakilling everything with a single shot from a fully automatic weapon like the soma is a bit much. So, Let's make things overpowered and interesting at the same time.

 

for the most part, there's little to complain about warframe moding. It could be better, yes, but I don't wanna get too verbose,scattered, or unclear. 

 

 

Elemental mods.

Buff them to eight ranks each (I suppose you can do ten if you really have to, but eight is such a nice number; Spiders. )

Now, that's overpowered, but not currently interesting. We can make it interesting: Remove the damage they add to each hit entirely.

Instead, rework elements so that with each rank, the status proc evolves (maybe a tiny multiplier for each hit depending on resistances, but we're focusing on the status proc here) Let's take cold for example: 

This all assumes that the enemy is neutral in terms of weakness and resistance. Also; Effects would scale well for harder hitting weapons. 

 

0- causes the part struck to take extra damage from future hits, larger area and bigger multiplier each level. 

2- Causes slow of that particular part. (we could have a cool limping system, but for now that'd be something like legs=movement slow, upper body=slow reload and poor accuracy. head=long stun)

4- causes full body slow, and a chance of total freezing in the area shot. 

6-frozen parts shot explode and hurt nearby enemies. Also, as a sort of red-crit, there's a chance of full freezing

8- Enemies slow down when near a frozen ally, who radiates cold. 

 

as for multishot, make it change the mechanics of the weapon, so that it's no longer a use-with-everything, but rather a powerful bit of customisation. Examples include:

Making a single shot weapon burst fire. 

Making the damage cone of a weapon wider, so that it hits more things.

Dividing the projectile up into several smaller, weaker missiles (you're going to love this one on explosives) 

an alt fire for bows and shotguns, allowing for the player to be legolas/go double barreled.

 

- you could probably put several of these on the same weapon at the same time. 

 

 

Boosting Reload speed and clip size/max ammo mods. But, also, Changing the way they mix with corrupt mods; For example burdened mag (+clip size -reload speed) shouldn't be used alongside ammo stock. You should only need one. Currently they both give you +60% clip size, you'd need to use both for 120%, and only using one would mean ammo stock every time. The solution: Buff the corrupted mod to give the player 120% at max on its own. Both mods become viable. 

 

As for physical damage mods; Put them into two sets (will add a little to this in the meta progression). Those that add a small bit of extra damage (the increase based on base damage, not the specific damage) and those that convert damage. (the player would have a cap, so that they can't increase their additional damage by adding all the mods) 

 

More special mods, examples:

Energy leech

Defense leech. Temporary extra armour/shield recharge rate. 

Non-elemental/physical status mods, like fear or ability-canceling. 

Specific damage mods, like more against enemies knocked down, heavy enemies, or headshots.

(possibly Mutually exclusive) mods for punch-through,ragdoll and explosive rounds

 

 

 

 

The solar map and progression.

 

Part 1: getting things. 

The player should get the simple things first. The Complex things later. Before graduating to the midgame, the player should have all the simple improvement mods. For example Continuity, steamline, intensify and stretch. Redirection and vitality. Many single-stat weapon mods. When they get to the midgame; Assume they have all this stuff, and give it to them no longer. Instead; give the dual stat mods, mods with penalties, and mods that change the mechanics of an item. (also increase the quality of fusion cores). Take several corrupted mods out of the vault and add them to the drop tables (in weapons, as discussed, they are alternatives to several non-corrupt mods) (also, even though DE 'fixed' the vault drops, they're pretty bloated, and it wouldn't be too bad to loose a few. to get them all would take way too many runs). By the time players get to the late game, they will have interesting, specialized weapon builds that aren't just the same weapon with more damage (though it will do more damage). (players already kinda do this with frames) At the same time; They don't have 1-hit kill soma, so early game, though now very easy, isn't stupidly so. 

 

Part 2: enemies.

So currently enemies... get more health and more armour and more damage and many don't really like this kind of progression because it's shallow... yet to justify a change from the shallow +damage system enemies are going to need to get more mechanics, Introduce special enemies like nullifiers later. But more importantly; change the way old enemies behave and give them new abilities. For example seekers, as you progress, could drop more seeker mines, and again as you progress, these mines can have one of several unique improvements that make them more nightmarish for players if they're not handled properly. By the time that seekers are very dangerous enemies, the player already knows how to deal with them; and that's the meaning of progression. The changes on enemies could be simple; like minor speed boosts, an increased fire rate/reload speed or a steady increase in the use of an 'ability' like grenades.  Or it could be more complex; Enemies spawning alongside those who work well with eachother. A change in AI like charging in a zigzag to be harder to hit, a new ability they didn't previously have. It could even be something absolutely cunning; Like enemies not stupidly running into vortexes Like enemies who can buff/heal/resurrect allies. 

 

Part 3: The story; Is there one? There's two big narratives for individuals that persist at the moment.  Here's them roughly:

Vor, His team-up with krill, and his new job as Orator of t4 

The Infested, Salad, zanuka and valkyr, The harvester, Salad's removal from the board, Salad and mutalists. 

 

Other than making sense of those two stories, it might be nice for players to revisit some events; whilst keeping others as historic events fought by tenno who woke up before you did. Perhaps, were DE to wish for each individual to experience part of an old 'historic event', they should make new questlines with similar themes, activities and the same rewards. Alternatively; DE could make (always active) quests within the context of a changing solar system to introduce the player to new mechanics (first time you have access to an invasion the lotus should make a bigger deal out of it, give you an additional guidance, and give an additional reward for completion.)

 

 

For getting Weapons and frames. 

 

 

Story wise, the only frame you shouldn't have access to a quest for in the begining is valkyr, being related to alad V's story (mesa comes in later, but she's never a product of alad) (unless we had valkyr pre-torture. That could be a thing) Gameplay-wise; There are several frames most player's would deem 'essential' and then there's a few frames that players would deem peripheral.  It's not to say that some frames are just bad, but rather that players should get frames like Frost and loki before they get frames like hydroid and mirage. It's a largely non-consensus thing that we could probably go to war for (I think everyone should have at least four trinities, but I'm sure many of you will tell me otherwise) Thus, my thoughts are so;

 

quests for basic frames should be available from early/from the start

Players should have got the original before getting the prime. 

Prime frames should be from high level missions. (mag is way too easy to get!) Because they're more a symbol of progression/support of the game than something you get for superior stats. 

 

Weapons: 

-Some weapons should be better than others. However; Should two weapons cost the same,by way of resources, They should be equal.

- Other than prime weapons, and event weapons; many more weapons should be convertable into more powerful versions of themselves. Starting from a certain mastery rank; players should be able to remake weapons. Not changes from the latron to the tiberon or the bo to the tipedo; Changes like the nikana to the dragon nikana, or the gorgon to the prisma gorgon. Perhaps this might even carry any potato added to a weapon forward (though unlikely,it would be much preferred) We don't need ten subsequent versions of each weapon, just maybe a version of a mediocre weapon with nice mechanics buffed for late-game. 

 

  

Anyhow. I hope this thread was more constructive than a builder. The suggested changes should hopefully please everyone. The first parts are more important, but the latter still holds true. 

Edited January 26, 2015 by Innocent_Flower

[Yazeth]

Not bad. I especially like the extra dmg against x suggestion the most.

[Aspari]

So far I like what I'm reading.

 

(Will edit when I have more time to read it thoroughly.)

[Innocent_Flower]

On serration and it's like itself; whilst I think It'd be better removed, with such a system, removing it would be less necessary.

[UltimateSpinDash]

You definitely put some thought into this.

[Innocent_Flower]

You definitely put some thought into this.

It's the accumulative thought of several threads. Actualy took me a couple of hours to do. Shame it doesn't attract many posts. Updated the title to be more catching (i don't like it; any better ideas) Could I at least have one person who's adamantly against this kind of thing so that a discussion forms. 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

It's the accumulative thought of several threads. Actualy took me a couple of hours to do. Shame it doesn't attract many posts. Updated the title to be more catching (i don't like it; any better ideas) Could I at least have one person who's adamantly against this kind of thing so that a discussion forms.

I've got your back. STORY JUST SIDETRACKS US SCALING IS THE ONLY TRUE WAY TO SHOW PROGRESSION NEW PLAYERS SHOULD ONLY HAVE THUNDERBOLT AND WARM COAT UNTIL MR15.

I like it and agree with everything you said except "[This] should hopefully please everyone". I know you know better than to hope for that.

[DrBorris]

I am with you here. I am glad that someone else is looking to bring Progression into Warframe and that others are interested and commenting, but it does kind of irk me that it took three days for Progression 2.0 (the post I made) to get this amount of comments (I know why now though, the community just has a reading limit for posts that I exceeded). The stuff you got here seems pretty good, but does have some holes. The holes are due to you not writing 13,000 words, and that is good because the Forum goers do not read that much. So... the holes are pretty easily patched, nothing that can destroy these suggestions. 

 

Oh, and as for Enemy level and planet Progression,

The picture that wraps up pretty much my entire topic and can somewhat apply to yours. I somehow managed to incorporate enemy level, weapons, power, difficulty, and story into that picture directly.

 

A bump to my post would be okay :)

[Oberonight]

I would also like to add this to the Progression. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/390674-potato-salvage/

 

Spending Potatoes on weapons with Prime versions punishes the player.

Same thing goes for Nikana and D.Nikana. Why should making my weapon stronger punish me? Why don't potatoes transfer to higher tier weapons?

[Innocent_Flower]

I am with you here. I am glad that someone else is looking to bring Progression into Warframe and that others are interested and commenting, but it does kind of irk me that it took three days for Progression 2.0 (the post I made) to get this amount of comments (I know why now though, the community just has a reading limit for posts that I exceeded). The stuff you got here seems pretty good, but does have some holes. The holes are due to you not writing 13,000 words, and that is good because the Forum goers do not read that much. So... the holes are pretty easily patched, nothing that can destroy these suggestions. 

 

Oh, and as for Enemy level and planet Progression,

The picture that wraps up pretty much my entire topic and can somewhat apply to yours. I somehow managed to incorporate enemy level, weapons, power, difficulty, and story into that picture directly.

 

A bump to my post would be okay :)

Where are the holes here? 

 

 

Also; That picture is pretty rough, and would be both two steps forward and two steps back. On one hand progression would be 'clear'. On the other hand there's too many black-white values there and a great encouragement for grind to get to wanted parts. Your idea is essentially too 'rigid'  to be fun. 

Edited January 25, 2015 by Innocent_Flower

[DrBorris]

Where are the holes here? 

 

 

Also; That picture is pretty rough, and would be both two steps forward and two steps back. On one hand progression would be 'clear'. On the other hand there's too many black-white values there and a great encouragement for grind to get to wanted parts. Your idea is essentially too 'rigid'  to be fun. 

The holes are minor, nothing idea breaking. The stuff you brought up would be awesome things to implement (and points for creativity).

 

*cracks fingers* Time for the feedback. 

 

Elemental mods

The problem here is that there is a lot of effort into "levels" when the top is the best in every way. Using mods for progression is very touchy, this is due to mods being relatively easy to rank up and just being able to buy your way to end-game. However, having the status procs become that dynamic would be great. Currently, only viral and corrosive are that great of procs. That is mostly due to them being the ones that really do damage. While cold, fire, electricity and radiation have some CC elements, their usefulness can not compare with removing enemy armor or cutting health in half. So... making more dynamic procs (that you have to work for) sounds like a step in the right direction.

 

Multishot

+1 Mods should modify weapons more. Pretty much everything now makes a weapon straight up better. Having mods alter the use of a weapon would be probably the best thing DE wold have done for Warframe in quite some time. When weapon augments came out, I was expecting them to alter the abilities of weapons, but instead they are just buffs :(. So... yes please.

 

Getting things

This is what I mean by holes. What you said was great, lock away the fancy stuff from new players and have them acquire the fancy stuff as they progress. The problem is... you said nothing on how to do it. This is where my post went from big to obnoxiously large, so I understand leaving out the "how to," but can we at least get a hint with what you are thinking? Locking stuff away from new players without forcing them to grind is a very difficult task. I tried to come up with a solution, but the Forums did not like that so much.

 

Enemies

YES, simple enemies on low level, fancy enemies at higher level. I do not know how much more yes I can give to this part. Enemies scaling in ways beyond health, damage, and armor (artificial difficulty) is in great need. Eximus enemies were DE kind of getting this, but the progression should not be rare, it should be universal as you progress.

 

Story and getting Frames

You have seen my picture, you know what I think here.

 

Getting weapons

What is needed in the world of weapons in Warframe is more options. Yeah, there are a but load of awesome types of weapons, but a select few that are actually decent into late game. Of course higher power weapons should be locked away from new players, but the play style of low level weapons should not be invalidated by other weapons. And the gaping hole is back. You said that Warframe needs a mechanic (weapon progression), but completely left out a way to do it. I think everyone would agree that you should get better weapons as you progress, how you do that is the hard part. The MR argument is always heated because, in general, MR = Grind and as of now there are no in-game alternatives. That is what the "Progression Rank" thing I wrote about in my post is supposed to fulfill, a rank that accurately displays your Progression in game and the level of weapons you have access to. 

 

 

Alright, that is it from me for now. As long as there are people pushing for Progression in Warframe, I am happy. 

 

 

Ohhhhhh, you're the one who commented on my post without reading it (sorry about the rage if you read it). I am curious to see why you call it "rigid" and not fun. While I did make a rigid structure, it is still very open compared to a normal campaign. I also added two alternatives to the "Difficulty versus Power" section, with what you said here, I would be interested to see what you think of that (new) stuff. One of which involved using Focus, and the other removed Serration. If you don't want to convolute your post or or bump mine, just shoot me a pm. 

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Warframe was built from the ground up with the idea that you'll never stop grinding/min-maxing.

Removing a element of that simply removed an element if the game.

The overhaul needed to correctly introduce horizontal progression is gigantic.

Simply removing serration is only a half arsed attempt.

[--Q--uaint]

Also, the Miter->Panthera "advancement" is an exceedingly backward step. I mean, the Panthera does terribad damage... and can't even zoom in! And yes, I've rebound alternate fire.