Rhino Proposals

[RoosterTheRed]

Allow me to make myself perfectly clear: I love Rhino. I've spent hundreds of hours lugging his gargantuan armored backside all over the star system, and I wouldn't have it any other way. 

 

But I see the complaints of others, and I agree with many of their points, to an extent. Rhino doesn't need a "nerf," as many people say, he needs a rework. And I'll explain why, according to his powers, abilities, and stats. 

 

 

 

1. Rhino Charge. I never use this one, primarily because my mods make it last for half a second. However, others like to use it, so I'd like to put my 2 cents forward in discussion of the subject. For those unfamiliar with Charge, it's affected by both duration and range. And honestly, it's just like Excalibur's Slash Dash. You rocket forward, and suddenly stop. There's usually some killed/damaged/knocked down enemies behind you. 

 

I propose that Charge is changed from a rocket-across-the-room power to what the power actually describes. I think it should be a toggleable ability, and slighter faster than your usual sprint speed. You'd be able to change your direction whilst charging, but no weapons would be available to you until you exit Charge. As for energy consumption, it could perhaps be similar to Ember's Ultimate, wherein there's an initial cost, and subsequent costs per second for use. 

 

 

2. Iron Skin. I REALLY don't want this one nerfed. Again, I main Rhino, and I only use melee weapons, so saying that Iron Skin saves my life would be a gross understatement. However, I can see its issues. As someone else pointed out, it's too good against early enemies, but too weak against later enemies. It needs some scaling fixes. As for mechanics, I can't say it needs anything. Many say the Rhino needs to be tankier, while others claim that a tankier Rhino would be OP. Another complaint is that many early players run into an open room, toggle Iron Skin, and just stand there shooting all the enemies.

 

The argument is that this breeds bad behavior on part of all early Rhinos, and isn't to be encouraged. So perhaps using a primary or secondary with Iron Skin slows down a Rhino? This would encourage Iron Skin users to use melee, and aggro enemy fire. 

 

 

I have no other suggestions for his abilities. Roar and Stomp are, in my opinion, fine as they are. 

 

His stats, however, could use a buff. He could use some more armor, to be sure. I like his speed, but as he is, his speed only gets him killed in higher levels, as he's not tanky enough to justify such slowness. Perhaps a passive ability could be integrated, wherein his speed directly affects his stats, or his Iron Skin strength. Ultra fast Rhinos like myself would rely on our speed to keep us safe, but people with default Rhinos could plod along happily drawing enemy fire for their teammates. 

 

TL;DR: Rhino needs some scaling work, and his Charge could be better. 

 

Any thoughts? 

[Qynchou]

Augments, imo:

 

Ironclad Charge - too short, should be 20 seconds so I dont have to pump max continuity and have an out-of-map charge

Iron Sharpnel - Iron Skin should be refreshable without it. Augment should take your current armor into consideration when applying iron skin (synergy with ironclad/steel fiber)

Roar - strength/duration extended by the amount of people you hit it with. Affects power strength for yourself. (iron skins buffer under roar should be higher accordingly)

Stomp - Reduces enemy armor for the stomp duration or increases damage based on charge counter (how many enemies you hit with charge recently).

 

These would be worth a mod slot and wouldnt be OP. Why? Because you cant have them all and have a solid build, you have to choose and build around it. Your skin might go to 6k+ but thats with the roar cost.

[(PSN)jFresh215]

I would like charge to have a conned blast at the end when he stops or when he hits an enemy. make the distance of said cone be affected by range. as for roar it would be nice if we could get an augment or something that causes a stun on enemies. I wanted it to work kinda like terrify but thought that might be a little op. i think that iron skin is good as is but as a rhino player would like to see it scale a little more. stomp shouldn't be touched. 

[9tailboy]

No, Rhino is strong as it is, just about any player on warframe can pick up a rhino and use iron skin with stomp, instantly get 50% damage on the mission stats, I don't care what happens, rhino needs nothing to be changed.

[Qynchou]

No, Rhino is strong as it is, just about any player on warframe can pick up a rhino and use iron skin with stomp, instantly get 50% damage on the mission stats, I don't care what happens, rhino needs nothing to be changed.

Im pretty sure anyone who tries hard enough can get more than 50% damage.

 

e.g Me getting 90% with saryn on invasion missions. Nerf saryn?

Edited January 25, 2015 by Qynchou

[Morgax]

Iron skin is a tricky one to figure out frankly, the way i see it if you want to scale it properly it has to be tied to enemy level.

 

Solutions that wouldn't work:

 

1. Armor benefiting skin, again early levels would be even easier.

2. complete immunity out of question

3. damage negation, again doesn't scale very well unless it is very high which is not a good idea.

 

My idea would something akin to Nyx's absorb, the amount of damage you suffer would determine how strong your iron skin is.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Morgax

[Azawarau]

I feel like rhinos iron skin falls a bit short as well

 

After long talks with Ronyn weve come to 6-8k EHP being good for his health and iron skin with max mods

 

The thing with his iron skin being too powerful too early on was fixed a bit with gaining levels while you do the star chart so thats ok IMO

 

If youre using a 6 formad frame with max mods lvl 30 enemies probably arent going to be a threat

 

I like the idea of a toggleable charge but hope it isnt a rush tool or something situational

 

It should be based on movement speed and have a forward bullet deflection so it can be used to close gaps or keep from taking too much damage while being vulnerable

[Qynchou]

Iron skin is a tricky one to figure out frankly, the way i see it if you want to scale it properly it has to be tied to enemy level.

 

Solutions that wouldn't work:

 

1. Armor benefiting skin, again early levels would be even easier.

2. complete immunity out of question

3. damage negation, again doesn't scale very well unless it is very high which is not a good idea.

 

My idea would something akin to Nyx's absorb, the amount of damage you suffer would determine how strong your iron skin is.

1. You just destroyed iron skin for endgame.

 

My proposal is to make it synergize with ironclad charge, which would scale into lategame. New players? Someone suggested making iron skin initial buffer based on your current health, so new players with low vitality/redirection wont be godlike. New players wont have ironclad charge or iron sharpnel.

[Morgax]

1. You just destroyed iron skin for endgame.

 

My proposal is to make it synergize with ironclad charge, which would scale into lategame. New players? Someone suggested making iron skin initial buffer based on your current health, so new players with low vitality/redirection wont be godlike. New players wont have ironclad charge or iron sharpnel.

I don't understand how exactly.

 

Synergy from armor buffs and roar? Again it helps with end game but early game will be even easier. 

[(PSN)TheArrowOfGod]

My problem is that Rhino charge is a JOKE. I imagined it as plowing through enemies and sending them flying kinda like when you slam on the ground, but NOPE you just hit the first guy, stop and they fall on the floor for like half a second. USELESS.

[Holeypaladin]

For iron skin, a way to make it scale better is to make it based off of health+shields, and benefiting from armor DR.  Also yeah, Rhino's armor needs to be buffed to 300.  So does Frost's armor.  Having it slow him down isn't really a good thing, since Rhino is already the slowest frame.

 

That way you really have to drop four max-rank mods into iron skin in order to make it really good, rather than being equally good to someone who doesn't have high-rank mods as it is to high-level players who do.

[Epicagemo]

I love the Rhino Charge idea, it would differentiate him from excal and hydroid.

[Qynchou]

I don't understand how exactly.

 

Synergy from armor buffs and roar? Again it helps with end game but early game will be even easier. 

Explain to me how early game will be easier with a 150 hp iron skin?

 

Synergy of ironclad charge and iron sharpnel. Charge to enemies to increase armor and then pop iron sharpnel which takes armor into consideration.

Thats 2 mod slots already.

[XToxinator]

Rhino charge shouldn't be a dash. More like Rhino dash. So yeah change it to a ability that you can charge to enemies with energy drain.

[Beetamus]

Ironskin needs to scale to not be godlike early, and not next to useless late game, any good ideas for this i'm going to get behind. Nuff said...

 

Rhino Charge should lose it's dash forward, not get blocked by enemies, give blast procs (and some damage cause you just got trampled) on contact with an enemy, be either toggle-able or duration based, give you a slight speed increase if you keep running in a straight line and make it harder to turn. Think a charging Rhino.

 

It may not be the best move in the game, but it has style.

 

Roar i'm still thinking about

 

Stomp should be affected by duration, so it's harder to min/max

[Censium]

You have my up-vote with the charge. The most I use charge for now is jumping gaps.

 

And yeah. Ironskin is godlike 1-15. Anything above that it really falls short. I'd personally like it if it could take all incoming damge and reduce it by 70 or 80% and only does that for a # of hits. Face tanking would be alot harder, but not impossible, and it'd be useful in the higher end missions.

[Holeypaladin]

You have my up-vote with the charge. The most I use charge for now is jumping gaps.

 

And yeah. Ironskin is godlike 1-15. Anything above that it really falls short. I'd personally like it if it could take all incoming damge and reduce it by 70 or 80% and only does that for a # of hits. Face tanking would be alot harder, but not impossible, and it'd be useful in the higher end missions.

You should try Trinity sometime.  She can reduce all incoming damage by 75% for base 12 seconds (affect by power duration mods) with link.

 

I think iron skin should be more like her link ability.

[Azawarau]

You should try Trinity sometime.  She can reduce all incoming damage by 75% for base 12 seconds (affect by power duration mods) with link.

 

I think iron skin should be more like her link ability.

I think trinity is more the issue in this case

 

Giving rhino that kind of buff would present more issues than solutions

[RoosterTheRed]

To give some perspective, are you guys familiar with the Juggernaut, from the X-Men? The way he runs (charges) is the way I wish Rhino could be. No weapons, just diving headfirst into a group of enemies. And it'd be grand that upon leaving Charge (either because the time has run out, or because it was un-toggled) Rhino does some awesome finisher or melee swing or something that does extra damage to whatever he ended up hitting. 

[Paradoxbomb]

A possibility to improve Iron Skin's scalability across all levels could be to make it's effective health a hybrid of HP and number of hits taken, similar to the Nullifier's shield. That way it can still break down quickly at low levels if you aren't too careful, but it won't be destroyed by a single bullet in a T4 mission.

 

And +1 to the Charge overhaul, I myself would love to see it made into an actual charge attack rather than a very slight variation of Slash Dash.

[BaIthazar]

What we have learned so far:

Iron Skin with its own health does not scale.
you can run a lvl 5 mission on 1 ironskin no problem.
but it gets destroyed in no time lategame.

Iron Skin with DR wouldn't work aswell late game either IMO.

take 75% DR for example..
100 Dmg might hurt, but 25 doesn't as much
1000 Dmg hurts alot, and 250 Dmg is still more than the early game Dmg you would've received without 75% off.

 

 

My idea.. (feel free to give your opinions)
Have Iron Skin make it impossible to lose more than a certain % of your maxium health in a certain period of time.
I'm just going to throw numbers at you guys so if the example sounds ridiculous that might be the reason.

Imagine your Rhino has 1500 Health
Early game enemies deal 100 Dmg/second
it would take 15 seconds of standing still to die.
but with Iron Skin you can only lose 5% of your maximum health/ second
enemies will only deal 75 Dmg/second
it would now take 20 second of standing still to die.

Skip to late game, same Rhino, same Health
Enemies deal 1000 Dmg/second (10x as much)
it would take 1.5 seconds of catching bullets to die. (10 times as fast as early game)
but with Iron skin they only deal 75 Dmg/second (5% of 1000)
it would still take 20 second of catching bullets to die.

 

no matter how much health you have, or how much damage the enemies deal,

only being able to lose 5% of your Max Health/ Second will always give you a survival time of 20 seconds no matter what stage of the game you are in.

 

early game survival time= 20 seconds

late game survival time = 20 seconds

with this... you can still die if you're being incredibly stupid or reckless. but your survivability is the same in both Early and Late game

 

keep in mind the numbers are all bullsh*t made up in my mind, 5% was just a number I used as an example.

doubling the health you can lose (10%) will cut your survival time in half, 10 seconds of not being swiss cheese will still carry the danger of dying.
this way people can tank as Rhino effectively, without growing too attached to being unstoppable.

(maining Rhino has made it hard for me to adapt to other warframes and their respective playstyles)

 

Let me know what you think

Edited January 26, 2015 by BaIthazar

[Azawarau]

What we have learned so far:

Iron Skin with its own health does not scale.

you can run a lvl 5 mission on 1 ironskin no problem.

but it gets destroyed in no time lategame.

Iron Skin with DR wouldn't work aswell late game either IMO.

take 75% DR for example..

100 Dmg might hurt, but 25 doesn't as much

1000 Dmg hurts alot, and 250 Dmg is still more than the early game Dmg you would've received without 75% off.

 

 

My idea.. (feel free to give your opinions)

Have Iron Skin make it impossible to lose more than a certain % of your maxium health in a certain period of time.

I'm just going to throw numbers at you guys so if the example sounds ridiculous that might be the reason.

Imagine your Rhino has 1500 Health

Early game enemies deal 100 Dmg/second

it would take 15 seconds of standing still to die.

but with Iron Skin you can only lose 5% of your maximum health/ second

enemies will only deal 75 Dmg/second

it would now take 20 second of standing still to die.

Skip to late game, same Rhino, same Health

Enemies deal 1000 Dmg/second (10x as much)

it would take 1.5 seconds of catching bullets to die. (10 times as fast as early game)

but with Iron skin they only deal 75 Dmg/second (5% of 1000)

it would still take 20 second of catching bullets to die.

 

no matter how much health you have, or how much damage the enemies deal,

only being able to lose 5% of your Max Health/ Second will always give you a survival time of 20 seconds no matter what stage of the game you are in.

 

early game survival time= 20 seconds

late game survival time = 20 seconds

with this... you can still die if you're being incredibly stupid or reckless. but your survivability is the same in both Early and Late game

 

keep in mind the numbers are all bullsh*t made up in my mind, 5% was just a number I used as an example.

doubling the health you can lose (10%) will cut your survival time in half, 10 seconds of not being swiss cheese will still carry the danger of dying.

this way people can tank as Rhino effectively, without growing too attached to being unstoppable.

(maining Rhino has made it hard for me to adapt to other warframes and their respective playstyles)

 

Let me know what you think

I like the concept but 20 seconds is just asking for rage life strike abuse

 

As a Valkyr,Ember,Saryn, and Nekros melee i can tell you that enemies at around lvl 60 will take down your EHP in closer to 3-4 seconds if you stop moving even with Valkyr and QT

[BaIthazar]

I like the concept but 20 seconds is just asking for rage life strike abuse

 

As a Valkyr,Ember,Saryn, and Nekros melee i can tell you that enemies at around lvl 60 will take down your EHP in closer to 3-4 seconds if you stop moving even with Valkyr and QT

 

While I appreciate any kind of criticism..

might I remind you that I was just throwing around numbers.

literally any amount of % would fix it.

5% gives you 20 seconds...

it was an example to prove that this method would provide you with the same amount of survivability no matter how far into the game you are

de actual amount of % and thus the total seconds of survival are all up to DE

[Azawarau]

While I appreciate any kind of criticism..

might I remind you that I was just throwing around numbers.

literally any amount of % would fix it.

5% gives you 20 seconds...

it was an example to prove that this method would provide you with the same amount of survivability no matter how far into the game you are

de actual amount of % and thus the total seconds of survival are all up to DE

I did say i liked the concept

[BaIthazar]

I did say i liked the concept

thank you