Feedback On Nekros After Testing In T3 Survival Solo

[elele]

I main Nekros so I was extremely excited for this buff. And after some testing, I must say, good job DE! 

 

Survived for 35 minutes, died 3 times (mostly out of my own fault such as standing still in front of a Bombard or running into a Nullifier bubble losing all my Shadows). 

 

Shadows of the Dead is EXTREMELY useful now. They actually killed a lot of stuff. And they scale pretty well with enemy levels.

 

After 30 minutes, lvl 50ish Heavy Gunners and Bombards start to show up. My Soma was having trouble killing them so I couldn't replenish my army. Plus I died too many times so I had to extract. But all in all, it is FUN playing Nekros now. Seeing three Heavy Gunners Shaows ganking on one of their own never gets old. 

 

My build (focusing on maximum duration and some strength): http://goo.gl/i6seIJ

[geninrising]

AI is still too bad to warrant having a Nekros DPS rather than a farmer for LS. Still needs more work.

Edited January 30, 2015 by geninrising

[elele]

AI is still too bad to warrant having a Nekros DPS rather than a farmer for LS. Still needs more work.

 

AI of Bombards, Heavy Gunners and Corrupted Moas are OK because they don't hide in covers. 

 

Corrupted Ancients are pretty much your personal Trinity. Nullifiers are your personal Frost. Neither needs much AI. 

 

Any way those are not meant to be DPS IMO. They're just meat shield that covers your back, while capable of taking care of itself by killing stuff and staying alive for the whole one minute duration of SOTD. They're great for solo play or providing some support fire. 

 

Oh also the AI shoots Nullifiers' shield with good efficiency, especially Heavy Gunners. 

[(XBOX)His 1st Shadow]

AI of Bombards, Heavy Gunners and Corrupted Moas are OK because they don't hide in covers.

Corrupted Ancients are pretty much your personal Trinity. Nullifiers are your personal Frost. Neither needs much AI.

Any way those are not meant to be DPS IMO. They're just meat shield that covers your back, while capable of taking care of itself by killing stuff and staying alive for the whole one minute duration of SOTD. They're great for solo play or providing some support fire.

Oh also the AI shoots Nullifiers' shield with good efficiency, especially Heavy Gunners.

The buff is pretty much lackluster because it effects health and damage.

DE completely overlooked enemy type.

You're speaking of what bombards, gunners and ancients were doing but they're 1 time use rendering them undependable. Being required to skip kills to target certain enemies only to have a limited duration and not be recast able is the abilities biggest flaw.

I just wish DE understood that.

Edited January 30, 2015 by (XB1)His 1st Shadow

[ThePredicament]

Although I agree that the AI needs tweaking, you guys are really being overdramatic about it. The current AI does fine for what they are, especially now. Dividing aggro between SCALING alliies is much more important than doing damage (which they do anyway). It's not really that bad.

[(XBOX)His 1st Shadow]

^In comparison to what?

Miasma, M. prime, R. javelin?

If you think of Nekros as a damage dealer with SotD, thanks for saving me some time and effort. I'll end the conversation there.

Its support functions fails against R. Disarm, blessing. Heck even against chaos.

If all ults are going 80mph or better taking one from 15 to 20 isn't a buff.

Edited

Edited January 30, 2015 by (XB1)His 1st Shadow

[elele]

^In comparison to what?

Miasma, M. prime, R. javelin?

 

He's more "fun" than "pressing 4 to kill everything". Playing him reminds me of playing the summoner witch from Path of Exile. 

 

And he gives loot. 

 

Before the buff his 1,2, 4 skills are just plain bad. Now they're OK. --Speaking of Javelin and Miasma, at least Nekros' 1,2,4 skills are now better than Slash Dash, Super Jump and Contagion, which makes Nekros "OK" if you want to use him for other than "hiding in a corner pressing 3 until your fingers hurt while teammates kill stuff."

[ThePredicament]

^In comparison to what?

Again, chill on the dramatics.

 

But seriously, WHAT ARE YOU EVEN GOING ON ABOUT?

 

Comparing it to skills that fall off against level 30 enemies? What? Support? It has nothing to do with any other skill. It does what it needs to do and it does it well. Being reliant on Shadows for kills is probably what you want but that's not what it's supposed to do. I just told you, aggro split on meat shields that actually defend themselves and do twice the damage of the current levels of enemies. Does it do that? Yes. Does it last too long for you? Less duration.

 

Have a feeling you don't even Neks though, even if you did, you don't seem like you know how to properly.

 

Sidenote: Disarm isn't that great.

[(XBOX)His 1st Shadow]

^ Now this is comedy.

I've already pointed out that the effectiveness of using bombards, gunners, ancients etc. weren't dependable because they're 1 time temporary cast.

I also have already stated that the it renders the move undependable. Nothing to do with other skills? I let you in on a secret. When devs balance things, they consider other skills.... You're welcome.

Yet somehow mr "chill and all caps calls me dramatic. Lol. You've claimed to know what I want to do and also claim I don't know how to play. I could respond with a personal attack on mr hentai but class prevents me from doing so.

On topic

Nekros SotD does NOT do anything well and in fact it's the most restricted ult in the game.

- Unusable with full energy unless you've killed 1st.

- Even with 1000 kills ult is only usable 2x if each cast summons 10. 20 shadow cache

- inconsistent use resulting in undependable effectiveness due to DE not addressing enemy types. (Summoning crawlers vs ancients, tar moas, eximus etc.)

- Poor AI (adds to inconsistency)

- Longest cast time in game for the least amount of damage/defense. (Other abilities do everything better, faster, consistently and are always usable)

I could go on about the issues with SotD but what's the point?

[(XBOX)His 1st Shadow]

He's more "fun" than "pressing 4 to kill everything". Playing him reminds me of playing the summoner witch from Path of Exile.

And he gives loot.

Before the buff his 1,2, 4 skills are just plain bad. Now they're OK. --Speaking of Javelin and Miasma, at least Nekros' 1,2,4 skills are now better than Slash Dash, Super Jump and Contagion, which makes Nekros "OK" if you want to use him for other than "hiding in a corner pressing 3 until your fingers hurt while teammates kill stuff."

Fun is debatable. Whatever you use him for outside of desecrate there are better and IMHO more fun frames then he. The only reason he's valued is desecrate.... That's what's not fun.

Edited January 30, 2015 by (XB1)His 1st Shadow

[ThePredicament]

^ Now this is comedy.

I've already pointed out that the effectiveness of using bombards, gunners, ancients etc. weren't dependable because they're 1 time temporary cast.

I also have already stated that the it renders the move undependable. Nothing to do with other skills? I let you in on a secret. When devs balance things, they consider other skills.... You're welcome.

Good thing you aren't a game designer (inb4butbutiam) because you are wrong and you don't play Neks, simple as that. And the actual funny thing is, Shadow poorer AI is based off balancing, that's great right?

 

I've already pointed out that the effectiveness of using bombards, gunners, ancients etc. weren't dependable because they're 1 time temporary cast.

I have never ever heard anyone ever complain about this, ever. If a Neks player is running out of summons (even special ones), they are just not killing enough. Instead of using incompatible weapons and mashing 3, play correctly and this will never ever be a problem.

 

Yet somehow mr "chill and all caps calls me dramatic. Lol. You've claimed to know what I want to do and also claim I don't know how to play. I could respond with a personal attack on mr hentai but class prevents me from doing so.

If you are taking it as a personal attack, that's on you to get butthurt. I claim you don't know how to play as Neks because I'm great with Neks, maybe even one of the best, and every complaint you've made has never affected my performance to outperform everybody else on the team. If you actually did, you wouldn't complaining about them at all. You ignorantly put up biases against Shadows that aren't even that significant.

 

Nekros SotD does NOT do anything well and in fact it's the most restricted ult in the game.

- Unusable with full energy unless you've killed 1st.

- Even with 1000 kills ult is only usable 2x if each cast summons 10. 20 shadow cache

- inconsistent use resulting in undependable effectiveness due to DE not addressing enemy types. (Summoning crawlers vs ancients, tar moas, eximus etc.)

- Poor AI (adds to inconsistency)

- Longest cast time in game for the least amount of damage/defense. (Other abilities do everything better, faster, consistently and are always usable)

Aside from AI all of these complaints are either uselessly situational, due to poor gameplay style, and basically just user error.

-Do you really need to summon Shadows (or use any ult) at the start of any match?

-Yeah, if you aren't killing anything. If you aren't then you are playing this game wrong. Shadows isn't a crutch and was never meant to be a crutch.

-Inconsistent dependability? Shadows soak damage, that used to scale 1:1 with current enemy waves but now it's 2:1. Damage ults fall off at mid levels and those that don't, have target limits and then fall off.

-Like I said, AI does need tweaks but DE knows why it can't be buffed to enemy levels, especially on a 2:1 power ratio, and I agree with them too.

-Least amount of damage/defense, really? Does the word scaling not mean anything to you? At high enough levels every Shadow round shot will OUTDAMAGE a tick of a damage ult and every enemy will have a higher EHP than any defense skill.

 

Again, exaggerating without even properly thinking of what is implied and opinion based off poor timing skills. Hyperboles isn't going to get you anywhere and it's definitely just making your point look like whining rather than an actual well formed complaint.

 

Fun is debatable. Whatever you use him for outside of desecrate there are better and IMHO more fun frames then he. The only reason he's valued is desecrate.... That's what's not fun.

And your opinion is better than his because?

Spoiler: It's not.

[Paradoxbomb]

Shadows could definitely still use their own "unique" and more aggressive AI so that non-heavy enemies put their amped damage and health to use instead of wasting there short lives behind a chest-high wall, but it is still nice to see his skill set get some much needed attention and improvement. Maybe playing as Nekros will be a bit more enjoyable now.

[Monolake]

SoTD is functioning the same as before - a meat shield. A beefier meat shield now but still. The AI is hopelessly bad and only creates clutter.

The nerf on Terrify range is quite significant and its still a horrible CC with enemies running away at max speed  and you don't want duration on it (yet you want max duration for ult).

The casting speed-up is great, but the rest is not changing the game, still a Farmer frame. 

[Monolake]

Nekros SotD does NOT do anything well and in fact it's the most restricted ult in the game.

- Unusable with full energy unless you've killed 1st.

- Even with 1000 kills ult is only usable 2x if each cast summons 10. 20 shadow cache

- inconsistent use resulting in undependable effectiveness due to DE not addressing enemy types. (Summoning crawlers vs ancients, tar moas, eximus etc.)

- Poor AI (adds to inconsistency)

- Longest cast time in game for the least amount of damage/defense. (Other abilities do everything better, faster, consistently and are always usable)

I could go on about the issues with SotD but what's the point?

pretty much this

 

 

 

My Soma was having trouble killing them so I couldn't replenish my army

 

 

 

While with Nyx or Loki Irradiate disarm you could go on CCing and making enemies fight each-other scaling to infinity.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Monolake

[elele]

 

While with Nyx or Loki Irradiate disarm you could go on CCing and making enemies fight each-other scaling to infinity.

 

If chaosed/irradiated enemies can't kill each other, you still have to kill them yourself, eventually, right?

[Monolake]

If chaosed/irradiated enemies can't kill each other, you still have to kill them yourself, eventually, right?

 

You can recast and it affects new enemies that spawn too, repeat forever as long as you have energy, but again its for CC rather than damage. But with Necros your power is not working at all unless you have filled the stack with kills (like you noted you lose them if you die), you cant just cast it or resurrect corpses killed by others.  

[OUTAKE]

i was just looking at your build and seeing how you have streamline and equil might as well not have dispoil cuz its cheap and youll come across alot of orbs and i would put vigor or that one mod that gives resist knockdown and plus spell time

[quietcanary]

Guys don't fight. This is a happy day! Nekros buff is looking good on the first go around.

Some things I want to comment on however.

-a group of 10 souls should be able to kill a group of 40 at any level. Assuming everything goes perfectly they should both die on the 40 mark of course AI makes this less or more likely but it's conservative to say they could handie at least 20.

-if no changes to AI were made then yes it's pretty wonky but it's not "useless"

-mathmatically this is stronger than any ult but practically it is slightly less useful than most damage ult at damage itself, but the focus should be on its strategic advantage instead a.k.a the aggro steal, meat shieldness.

-the soul cap is a handicap and the need to select targets is a double edged sword. Pretending these are not problems to be worked around because you think it's a scrub problem is just enforcing your ego in a debate which we don't care how good you are, and it doesn't have any bearing on the arguements validity. It's called a "Geht gud" mentality and it's my new favorite phrase on the warframe forums.

-Disarm is amazing. I hate Loki and yet I know this to be true.

-That cas time is awful. Doesn't make it the worst ult and just because it does nothing the best specifically doesn't mean it's worse than those that do. I feel like it's better than any pure damage ult (embers, volts, saryns, mags, but probably not ashs) but isn't quite as good as the best damage/super utility ults (nova, vauban, nyx, loki) and falls close to the ones that are primarily damage with decent micro area cc, like hydroids or zephyrs.

We can all agree AI needs work. Question is is it worth duration or not? Terrify being recastable makes enemies running forever less of a problem right? Personally I feel removing the duration from souls, and making it recastable would fix most problems with it not being a quite powerful enough.

[elele]

i was just looking at your build and seeing how you have streamline and equil might as well not have dispoil cuz its cheap and youll come across alot of orbs and i would put vigor or that one mod that gives resist knockdown and plus spell time

 

Despoil is there because it makes sure I can always "self-regenerate" energy (sorta of). When Shadows die, I desecrate them for red orbs while taking a hit to my HP through Despoil. Then with Equilibrium I can have full energy to cast Shadows again.

 

It works like blood magic. Makes sure I ALWAYS have energy to re-cast SOTD.

 

Vigor doesn't help much after 30min in T3 when heavies pretty much just one shot you anyway.  

[elele]

You can recast and it affects new enemies that spawn too, repeat forever as long as you have energy, but again its for CC rather than damage. But with Necros your power is not working at all unless you have filled the stack with kills (like you noted you lose them if you die), you cant just cast it or resurrect corpses killed by others.  

 

This is my first time ever doing a solo T3 Survival mission using Nekros. Before this the only long solo survival I did was on Pluto and Jupiter against Corpus (and those were before Nullifers). I'm sure as I practice more, I won't die as often. 

 

Also Soma is a bad weapon in killing lvl50+ heavies IMO, bad ammo economy and all. I'll try again with Torid. Seems like would work if I just lob gas clouds into big crowds of enemies fighting shadows. 

[ThePredicament]

-the soul cap is a handicap and the need to select targets is a double edged sword. Pretending these are not problems to be worked around because you think it's a scrub problem is just enforcing your ego in a debate which we don't care how good you are, and it doesn't have any bearing on the arguements validity. It's called a "Geht gud" mentality and it's my new favorite phrase on the warframe forums.

I want to stop you right there. It has nothing to do with working around with anything. This is Warframe, players kill waves of enemies with a single bullet (Ala Braton P splitting), having a reserve of 100, hell even 100000000 will not do anything, players will technically shelve LOWER level enemies since summons will pick from recent kills rather than the earliest ones. Killing after summoning is not unheard of, especially for those that have higher than baseline duration.

Target selecting is also not as big of a deal as people make it out to be. Shadows are expendable, just like weapons in Halo, you use them and adapt to what they can do rather than trying to rely on picks to win the match. It's still in your (or your teams) hands to do actual work.

 

Skill level is also relevant with the proper utilization and timing of skills. Like Limbo, Neks has a higher skill ceiling than most frames due to having to create "turf" and proper placement of Shadows. For example, in Void defense, summoning Shadows offset from the objective will likely end up with more favorable results rather than summoning in the middle. Total reliance on them is what makes capacity, clutter, and most of the other complaints an actuality but can be avoided easily with proper skill use.

 

Also, vanilla Disarm is terrible by itself without high amounts of CP. In places where it counts, high level, void, survival/defense, enemies will have extremely high armor, aggressive swarm behavior, and the same amount of aggro against players and objectives. They are basically armor scaling Infested, they don't become push overs like they do with Chaos even with the aug mod.

Edited January 30, 2015 by TheLocalHentai

[Noble_Cactus]

Can players shoot through the shadows now?

If yes, then DE actually remembered to fix a core problem of the ability.

If not, then the ability still needs work. Doesn't take a Neks player to realize that.

He's more "fun" than "pressing 4 to kill everything". Playing him reminds me of playing the summoner witch from Path of Exile. 

 

And he gives loot. 

 

I find this hard to believe unless shadows now reliably rush enemies and meatwall for you instead of cowering for 15 seconds behind a crate.

[elele]

Can players shoot through the shadows now?

If yes, then DE actually remembered to fix a core problem of the ability.

 

You can walk through them now. But I didn't notice shooting through them. 

 

I find this hard to believe unless shadows now reliably rush enemies and meatwall for you instead of cowering for 15 seconds behind a crate.

 

Among my 10 shadows, I almost always have two or three heavy gunners/bombards/butchers. Those actually charge out and kill stuff. 

[Insizer]

Despoil is there because it makes sure I can always "self-regenerate" energy (sorta of). When Shadows die, I desecrate them for red orbs while taking a hit to my HP through Despoil. Then with Equilibrium I can have full energy to cast Shadows again.

 

It works like blood magic. Makes sure I ALWAYS have energy to re-cast SOTD.

 

Vigor doesn't help much after 30min in T3 when heavies pretty much just one shot you anyway.  

That's actually brilliant. I imagine you run with a full vacuum carrier as well?

[elele]

That's actually brilliant. I imagine you run with a full vacuum carrier as well?

 

Thanks! And yeah full vaccum carrier.