IlluminaZero Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 you raise a valid point...this is an inexcusable blunder by the lotus,that has been repeated ad nauseam "I tell her I won't lose her. That I have another ship on its way. She is smiling because she knows I am lying... Tenno..." Lotus's chronic lying is even in-lore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunDownGrace Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 "I tell her I won't lose her. That I have another ship on its way. She is smiling because she knows I am lying... Tenno..." Lotus's chronic lying is even in-lore. that too.my oh my the evidence of the lotus`s traitorisms never ceases Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immolator1001 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 DE has said the Lotus is good. There is no "oh maybe she's evil or will turn on the Tenno" they have explicitly stated that helping the Tenno is her number 1 priority. These threads and speculation mean nothing when the creators of the game have said she is a good guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunDownGrace Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) DE has said the Lotus is good. There is no "oh maybe she's evil or will turn on the Tenno" they have explicitly stated that helping the Tenno is her number 1 priority. These threads and speculation mean nothing when the creators of the game have said she is a good guy. no,all DE ever said is "the lotus`s intentions are good" one of the most famous quotes states " the road to hell is paved in good intentions" yeah,im willing to drive a wedge into that technicality (also,"she is a good guy",that somehow sounds wrong) Edited January 31, 2015 by GunDownGrace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlluminaZero Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 DE has said the Lotus is good. There is no "oh maybe she's evil or will turn on the Tenno" they have explicitly stated that helping the Tenno is her number 1 priority. These threads and speculation mean nothing when the creators of the game have said she is a good guy. She can mean well but still be an untrustworthy chronic liar . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunDownGrace Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 She can mean well but still be an untrustworthy chronic liar . you said it best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immolator1001 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 no,all DE ever said is "the lotus`s intentions are good" one of the most famous quotes states " the road to hell is paved in good intentions" yeah,im willing to drive a wedge into that technicality (also,"she is a good guy",that somehow sounds wrong) She can mean well but still be an untrustworthy chronic liar . No they didn't say her intentions were good. They said she was good. Don't pick and choose what you want to hear. Also chronic liar? The only time she has lied in lore was when she was comforting a dying friend. She actually has compassion. Literally this entire thread doesn't matter because DE has declared her to be a good guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakrana Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 if the lotus is our mother..where is our father? (and dont say there is no father of the tenno,i doubt DE wants to make that kind of implication) A symbol doesn't necessarily need a counter point. In Abrahamic faiths for example, there is no female equal to God. It's possible the Lotus is an inversion of that; the overarching matriarch, opposed to the overarching patriarch. It is also not necessary for a person to have a mother and a father; a good enough parent will be just as able to raise a child into a decent human being, even if they're only one 'half' of the equation. The Lotus 'matriarch' angle is...admittedly curious, but then the trope A father to his men could be in play as an inversion here. She's kind of like Nocturnal about it though; stern, but approving. In as much as trust? Considering the context and effort gone to to get the Tenno to safety or to have a place in the world, a lot of her actions imply a strong sense of loyalty and, indeed, reverence for the Tenno. Zanuka's basically a kind of blasphemy, so far as her dialogue goes in that mission. "I tell her I won't lose her. That I have another ship on its way. She is smiling because she knows I am lying... Tenno..." Lotus's chronic lying is even in-lore. Ever tried consoling someone in an impossible situation? Pretty natural reaction. Heck, I imagine it's procedure for emergency services if a person is barely conscious and that tenuous consciousness is their only hope of not dying before they get treated. "You'll be ok, just listen to my voice!" "Everything's going to be alright, you just have to hold on!" "I'm right here, don't be afraid" I recommend people give a listen to the lyrics of No Way Out by Peter Gabriel (Up album) to get a bit of an idea of what I mean. Oh, and I Grieve is another good one, from the same album. Hell, have you never once tried to soften the blow of loss to someone? Never tried to make it less painful, be it breaking up with someone, spending time with a loved one on their death bed, or telling a kid that Floppsy the rabbit is going to the rabbit hole in the sky? Lying to those who are about to be hurt, die or have endured loss is one of the few positive applications of dishonesty. Especially as we all know they're pretty much lies, but the thought is what counts. I don't think many people will be thrilled if their long term relationship ended on the 'we'll never speak again, despite all we've shared'. Lying in the face of oblivion is human. Don't pretend it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunDownGrace Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 No they didn't say her intentions were good. They said she was good. Don't pick and choose what you want to hear. Also chronic liar? The only time she has lied in lore was when she was comforting a dying friend. She actually has compassion. Literally this entire thread doesn't matter because DE has declared her to be a good guy. well two things 1.im pulling the "pics or it didnt happen like you said" card 2.text meaning is lousy,and so is voice acting sometimes...that could be a severe run of cruelty there 3.there you go again,claiming that the lotus "is a good guy" despite it being a her 4.me and the other awakened tenno have a legion,you got yourself,im calling numbers here,your literally the only one trying to say this whole thread is invalid because of one thing that can be taken multiple ways A symbol doesn't necessarily need a counter point. In Abrahamic faiths for example, there is no female equal to God. It's possible the Lotus is an inversion of that; the overarching matriarch, opposed to the overarching patriarch. It is also not necessary for a person to have a mother and a father; a good enough parent will be just as able to raise a child into a decent human being, even if they're only one 'half' of the equation. The Lotus 'matriarch' angle is...admittedly curious, but then the trope A father to his men could be in play as an inversion here. She's kind of like Nocturnal about it though; stern, but approving. In as much as trust? Considering the context and effort gone to to get the Tenno to safety or to have a place in the world, a lot of her actions imply a strong sense of loyalty and, indeed, reverence for the Tenno. Zanuka's basically a kind of blasphemy, so far as her dialogue goes in that mission. Ever tried consoling someone in an impossible situation? Pretty natural reaction. Heck, I imagine it's procedure for emergency services if a person is barely conscious and that tenuous consciousness is their only hope of not dying before they get treated. "You'll be ok, just listen to my voice!" "Everything's going to be alright, you just have to hold on!" "I'm right here, don't be afraid" I recommend people give a listen to the lyrics of No Way Out by Peter Gabriel (Up album) to get a bit of an idea of what I mean. Oh, and I Grieve is another good one, from the same album. Hell, have you never once tried to soften the blow of loss to someone? Never tried to make it less painful, be it breaking up with someone, spending time with a loved one on their death bed, or telling a kid that Floppsy the rabbit is going to the rabbit hole in the sky? Lying to those who are about to be hurt, die or have endured loss is one of the few positive applications of dishonesty. Especially as we all know they're pretty much lies, but the thought is what counts. I don't think many people will be thrilled if their long term relationship ended on the 'we'll never speak again, despite all we've shared'. Lying in the face of oblivion is human. Don't pretend it isn't. first quote there,wrong thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlluminaZero Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 No they didn't say her intentions were good. They said she was good. Don't pick and choose what you want to hear. Also chronic liar? The only time she has lied in lore was when she was comforting a dying friend. She actually has compassion. Literally this entire thread doesn't matter because DE has declared her to be a good guy. Good people can lie. Good people can lose trust due to those lies. I hope you are not implying that good people are incapable of lying and must always be trusted. Lying in the face of oblivion is human. Don't pretend it isn't. Whatever convoluted rationalization you need, it is good to see another whom accepts Lotus's lying ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morec0 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 really,thats a good one but you forgot one point if the lotus is our mother..where is our father? (and dont say there is no father of the tenno,i doubt DE wants to make that kind of implication) I'd say our father is the Orokin - cold, harsh, pushing us harder than our mother and, honestly, kinda a $&*^ to both parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurnuttaja Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) This thread again? https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/356575-do-you-trust-the-lotus/ As for my stance? I dont care, she is just the announcer of the game. Edited January 31, 2015 by Kurnuttaja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damuranashi Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Meh, she gives me money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunDownGrace Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I'd say our father is the Orokin - cold, harsh, pushing us harder than our mother and, honestly, kinda a $&*^ to both parties. the lotus is orokin,either a.i. or human orokin dont get me wrong i like where your going with this but the logic error has me confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakrana Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Good people can lie. Good people can lose trust due to those lies. I hope you are not implying that good people are incapable of lying and must always be trusted. Whatever convoluted rationalization you need, it is good to see another whom accepts Lotus's lying ways. I feel you're missing the point I was trying to make: To lie with the intent of comforting someone as they die is not a bad thing. To lie in most other contexts, indeed at all, is unnecessary and the source of a lot of pain. Also note that lying in the 'console' context can be just as much as for the liar as the one being lied to. Lying to someone as they're about to die that they're 'going to be ok'? Not something I can fault. Lying to someone so you can hurt them and serve your own ends? Different. Blasted. Thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunDownGrace Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I feel you're missing the point I was trying to make: To lie with the intent of comforting someone as they die is not a bad thing. To lie in most other contexts, indeed at all, is unnecessary and the source of a lot of pain. Also note that lying in the 'console' context can be just as much as for the liar as the one being lied to. Lying to someone as they're about to die that they're 'going to be ok'? Not something I can fault. Lying to someone so you can hurt them and serve your own ends? Different. Blasted. Thing. no...both him and me are referring to the act of lying to someone,simply to be cruel for a twisted enjoyment given that in the last few seconds the person that is lied too will figure it out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheErebus. Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I trust the Lotus as much as I trust the Grineer that I stab in the gut. My point is, I don't trust her. She saved us and all, but there is something about her that ticks me the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlluminaZero Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) I feel you're missing the point I was trying to make: To lie with the intent of comforting someone as they die is not a bad thing. To lie in most other contexts, indeed at all, is unnecessary and the source of a lot of pain. Also note that lying in the 'console' context can be just as much as for the liar as the one being lied to. Lying to someone as they're about to die that they're 'going to be ok'? Not something I can fault. Lying to someone so you can hurt them and serve your own ends? Different. Blasted. Thing. Lying is good? Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, Pinocchio. Doesn't change that Lotus is a liar, nor that her reinforcements will never come for us or the deceased Mirage. Edited January 31, 2015 by IlluminaZero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakrana Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) no...both him and me are referring to the act of lying to someone,simply to be cruel for a twisted enjoyment given that in the last few seconds the person that is lied too will figure it out Lying is good? Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, Pinocchio. Doesn't change that Lotus is a liar, nor that her reinforcements will never come for us or the deceased Mirage. Once again, you're missing the point that Context plays. Lotus' actions with Mirage, in the context that Mirage is certainly going to die, is typical of someone slipping into desperation. Denial is the first stage of grief, and trying to convince yourself and others that the imminence of loss or pain isn't going to occur is typical. Lotus' words are basically a more eloquent rendition of saying "No no no no no you can't die no" ad nauseum. Again, when someone is faced with things that we do not wish to accept, acknowledge or entertain, it is typical for a person to lie, with the intent to comfort or console both or either party. When you lose someone/thing you love, respect, admire, whatever, the idea you're going to lose them hurts. And if you really must dredge up Immanuel Kant, the standards to which the Golden Mean wishes to uphold do not work in the context of a real world, as evidenced by the tired 'Do you lie to the murderer?' thought experiment. Sure, it's a nice idea to live in a world where we only tell people the truth, but the practicality of such a world is not going to happen when you contend with the fact that humans have feelings and they are adverse to pain. Brutal Honesty might be a good thing, but there is a time and a place. Telling someone 'Yeah, you're going to die and that's it' on their death bed is far crueller than telling them 'I'll see you again'. No, lying in and of itself is not a 'good' thing, but much like a lot of the moral dimension, depending on the reasons for your actions, they can be done for good reasons. Sure, deontology and teleological angles don't see eye to eye, but if you sincerely believe that there is no situation where telling someone something that is not true can be for the best, then there is no situation whereby we can reconcile disagreement. Fact is, you both appear to be arguing on the tautology that 'those who lie are always doing a bad thing', and are dismissing the value and reason of context within actions. I could go out and donate money to charity, an ostensibly good thing yes? But if I donate enough, I get admiration and attention the real motivation for my action. Would that not detract from the act of donating to charity? It wasn't done out of a sense of goodness, but out of self service! But, again, I suspect that this is the point where it is impossible to discuss further as none of us will be willing to concede to anything; I cannot assent to a world of absolutes without nuance, you cannot, it seems, abide a world where the intentions of an act, whatever that act may be, can inform the morality of said act. So, I will leave you with a quote from Paul Hoffman's The Left Hand of God, and take my leave: "No one expects a good humoured man or a kind woman to be good humoured or kind every day and every moment - yet they're appalled when people are trustworthy for a month or a year and then aren't for an hour or a day" Edited January 31, 2015 by Blakrana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altey Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Say what you want but i still wont trust her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morec0 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 the lotus is orokin,either a.i. or human orokin dont get me wrong i like where your going with this but the logic error has me confused Aye, she is, but that only further cements the analogy - as your parents TEND to be the same race as one another. In that same vein, both our mother (the Lotus A.I.) the our father (the leaders/scientists/military of the Orokin) stem from the same source, but are still very much different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlluminaZero Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 "No one expects a good humoured man or a kind woman to be good humoured or kind every day and every moment - yet they're appalled when people are trustworthy for a month or a year and then aren't for an hour or a day" Lotus lies to us far more frequently than year/day month/hour ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackVernian Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) 1.) It's kind of demeaning to say that a person is unable to define their own purpose in life without being told what it ought to be. 2.) Children trust out of naivete. It is not a quality that people with the capacity to massacre millions should emulate. The more power you have, the more you must consider the practical and ethical implications of what you do. 3.) Lotus gathers and organizes the Tenno, but giving people a purpose doesn't in itself make you benevolent. What we must consider is the WHY of things.... and we don't know WHY Lotus does anything, because she won't tell us. It should be slightly worrying that the "bad guys" in this universe are more straightforward about their objectives than our leaders. 4.) I'm really tired of this phrase "maintain the balance". For one thing, as far as we know the Tenno and their warframes were built to serve the Orokin, and the Orokin are now gone. This whole "balance" thing is Lotus, and it leads to the question: balance of what. Are we trying to prevent any faction from becoming significantly stronger than the others? Then why aren't we busting both the Grineer and the Corpus down to the point that they are on equal terms with these colonies that we hear so much about? For that matter why do we constantly kill and destroy, slapping people on the wrist when they try to deploy new super weapons, instead of trying to promote research, trade, and cultural exchange to bring lasting peace? Again: if Lotus would share the thought process that motivates our strategic orders, then that would really help the whole trust issue. I would like to emphasize that I've described only one side of the hexagonal coin, so please, do not try that hard describing obvious to me. I did not tell to replace trust with naievity. From tenno's point of view, they have a lot of reason to trust lotus, and less so to think for themselves. They know they are tools. They know that whatever saved them doesn't desire them dead, and that's enough for the most, it seems. Tenno like to obey orders, that's their purpose. "Maintaining the balance" thing is good enough for them, since they trust lotus. Why? Because she(it?) was the one who saved them and showed them the way, opened their destructive potential. So it's good enough for tenno. They are warriors, not leaders, philosophers or politics. All their life they waged war, and are perfected tools of destruction. Do not forget about it. Also I openly dislike your demagogy. It's useless. Edited January 31, 2015 by JackVernian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackVernian Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 no,all DE ever said is "the lotus`s intentions are good" one of the most famous quotes states " the road to hell is paved in good intentions" yeah,im willing to drive a wedge into that technicality (also,"she is a good guy",that somehow sounds wrong) If lotus was anywhere short of shortsighted, she wouldn't be able to command tenno. Her secrecy policy sows the seeds of mistrust, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunDownGrace Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Once again, you're missing the point that Context plays. Lotus' actions with Mirage, in the context that Mirage is certainly going to die, is typical of someone slipping into desperation. Denial is the first stage of grief, and trying to convince yourself and others that the imminence of loss or pain isn't going to occur is typical. Lotus' words are basically a more eloquent rendition of saying "No no no no no you can't die no" ad nauseum. Again, when someone is faced with things that we do not wish to accept, acknowledge or entertain, it is typical for a person to lie, with the intent to comfort or console both or either party. When you lose someone/thing you love, respect, admire, whatever, the idea you're going to lose them hurts. And if you really must dredge up Immanuel Kant, the standards to which the Golden Mean wishes to uphold do not work in the context of a real world, as evidenced by the tired 'Do you lie to the murderer?' thought experiment. Sure, it's a nice idea to live in a world where we only tell people the truth, but the practicality of such a world is not going to happen when you contend with the fact that humans have feelings and they are adverse to pain. Brutal Honesty might be a good thing, but there is a time and a place. Telling someone 'Yeah, you're going to die and that's it' on their death bed is far crueller than telling them 'I'll see you again'. No, lying in and of itself is not a 'good' thing, but much like a lot of the moral dimension, depending on the reasons for your actions, they can be done for good reasons. Sure, deontology and teleological angles don't see eye to eye, but if you sincerely believe that there is no situation where telling someone something that is not true can be for the best, then there is no situation whereby we can reconcile disagreement. Fact is, you both appear to be arguing on the tautology that 'those who lie are always doing a bad thing', and are dismissing the value and reason of context within actions. I could go out and donate money to charity, an ostensibly good thing yes? But if I donate enough, I get admiration and attention the real motivation for my action. Would that not detract from the act of donating to charity? It wasn't done out of a sense of goodness, but out of self service! But, again, I suspect that this is the point where it is impossible to discuss further as none of us will be willing to concede to anything; I cannot assent to a world of absolutes without nuance, you cannot, it seems, abide a world where the intentions of an act, whatever that act may be, can inform the morality of said act. So, I will leave you with a quote from Paul Hoffman's The Left Hand of God, and take my leave: "No one expects a good humoured man or a kind woman to be good humoured or kind every day and every moment - yet they're appalled when people are trustworthy for a month or a year and then aren't for an hour or a day" my oh my star in heaven drop... i did not think in all my years i would see someone quoting such snarled chicanery for one thing...now your so far backed into a corner your starting to try and lie to save your ineffective attempt at defending the lotus you claimed the lotus said something on the order of "ill see you again" when not only did she not say that,ever,in the whole history of wf...but the line we were picking apart didnt even mention that..your mind is so desperate to save that treacherous witch known as the lotus that your willing to make extraordinary leaps of context that not even this darling english language will allow as for the whole twisted lie that the disgusting,torpid miasma known as traditional wisdom would poison us with,specifically LIEING to comfort the near dead...That is a severe insult,that is a blind misjudgement of a simple mind trying to emulate a higher emotion it assumes that a dying person is of such low intelligence that a lie,which is wrong no matter the context,would somehow comfort them when its very obvious to the dying person that they will die id think in such a situation truth is more of a comfort,because then the dieing person knows there fate is sealed,and can resolve themselves to the moment classic examples: new star trek movie,second one,where spock says this in explaining his lack of emotion about dieing: "knowing that my own death was imminent,i chose to feel nothing" (essentially implying that he let go of all emotion,so that no matter the circumstance of his impending doom,the truth of the event would allow him a measure of peace) dead space 3,when isaac clarke and the other guy learn of the necromorph moon`s impending ressurection,isaac clarke is looking embattled,and then the other guy grabs his shoulder and says "no b(think expletive)s,we die now?"...with the implication being they knew they were going to die,so they might as well give the necromorphs hell before they do,and ironically enough this comforted isaac as for the rather lackluster charity example.im not terribly offended personally either way whether you donate alot or a little for a charity for self service of social gratification or not doesnt matter to me,cause rich or poor,loved or hated,in that case youll just be treated as another nameless person in an ocean of charity statistics as for the kant guy quotes from the other guy taking your lotus support apart...being imperfect ourselves doesnt prevent us from taking apart the moral high ground of someone else who is faltering we may be doing the same imperfections or having done so for a very long time...but the point is,msot of us are honest to some degree about our imperfection,like i myself am not perfect, However,the lotus,and her idealogical supporters on the forums seem to reject any notion that the lotus herself is imperfect...which is insultingly dishonest given that if the lotus was actually perfect,it would be such a powerfull thing that there would be no detractors..I.E. breathing air is relatively perfect,so not very many people complain about it(unless said air is filled with particulate) well thats about it for that part as for me myself?im actually extremely machivellian,beleiving that the world is not a just place,everyone is corrupt to some degree without exception,and thus for a "just and right" result to come about,people must be manipulated into doing so but i suppose your wondering why ive seemingly grown so rabidly ardent in my idealogical attacks against the lotus?and why i seem relatively uneffected by the various things about the lotus (i say that because i dont want to get crude and uncouth about this line) that everyone else except for us truly awakened tenno seem effected by? ill give you a big,huge hint "The eye of darkness cannot be blinded by the light" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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