Ways To Address Power Creep And New Player Power Skipping

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

tl;dr: To decrease the negative perception of new player rush grinding high level gear or buying out right, a system where Tenno struggle mentally without their memory to control the void infused powers causes various torments that can only be mitigated by the focus of battle over time and honing of skill.

 

One of the contentious issues with the game is the nature of power creep and how new players can acquire powerful weapons and frames. In the case of the latter, new player can get access to the top tier weapons and debatably more powerful frames by intense grinds and/or trades, or through cold hard cash. 

 

I can understand players that feel this effects the perceive value of their time and quality of the game, but I also respect players who can effectively grind for a goal, or put their cash down.

 

Instead of weapon gating the game via mastery rank, that just punishes these new players and potentially cuts of revenue for DE we should consider alternatives. 

 

One alternative would be to introduce different limiting factors that can distinguish veterans from noobs. I was checking out the Darkest Dungeon and some other games that have interesting mechanics, an idea came to me. The Tenno are warriors capable of shaping void energy into manifestations of great power. This is possible due to there horrific exposure to the void itself. Most things that come in contact with the void are twisted beyond hope or destroyed outright. 

 

Following me, so far? The Tenno, presumably have put considerable effort into overcoming this, possibly by having survived early exposure as children. Who knows, lore is esoteric at best. Lets assume that the Tenno has great mental dedication and methodology to master the void energy, without going insane.

 

Now, after the war and the destruction of the Orokin Empire the Tenno went away. Only to now return after the Lotus awoke them from their cold slumber. These Tenno have returned without their memory intact. So, considering a Tenno without their memories maybe at a disadvantage when confronting the bedlam inducing power of the void. Sure, through muscle memory the Tenno can still use there martial skill and express their frames awesome power, but at what price? The assault of the void beckons them to madness.

 

Hence a new, "stress mechanic" that could be introduced to assault the mind of the Tenno. The exact nature of how this stress is inflicted and how it manifest can be up for debate, but the purpose of it is provide a system of progression that will mark a veteran uniquely from new players. It can be partially tied to mastery, but should ultimately be tied to time and skill. Unique mission that harden the will and mental fortitude of the Tenno after exercising great feats of mastery over there arsenal, and/or completing trophies, etc. Maybe, the focus system could be part of a system that prevents the Tenno from descending into schizophrenia. 

 

This is just one idea. It isn't complete, and could use input.

 

Edit: To clarify, this is intended to stigmatize the new player's Tenno with a degenerative madness that is mitigated by either/or mastery rank progression, or some other way of measuring progress in Warframe. Nothing to severe, but enough that one can definitely tell a veteran from a new player.

 

If I where to continue with the Darkest Dungeon inspiration, I would introduce a mechanic where the Tenno could suffer PTSD attacks of varying severity, induced in combat. Certain enemies, numbers, types, or actions, could trigger a panic attack in the Tenno, causing any number of manifestations to occur. Bury vision, shaky aim, botched power casts, half-remembered Orokin screams (temporary of course). A hud indicator showing the stress build up could be implemented letting the Tenno know how close they are to losing their grip.

 

The severity and frequency of these episodes would be diminished through the progression system.

 

I realize this isn't everyones cup of tea, but I would find it exhilarating. Kind of like how I would panic when my rusty AK would jam in Farcry 2. Or when Solid Snake would have a PTSD episode after killing x number of enemies. 

Edited February 13, 2015 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX

[Burns2PvP]

If you were to do that kind of idea, you would want to mark someone out with the "Skill" tab and have it a non early alpha build.

 

The skill would be decided through length and amount of damage / kills on average per mission or something along those lines.

That could then give the player after a while, a different color or look or whatever you are getting at.

 

This also would not address power creep in the slightest, just the relation to Newer / Mid Tier person - End / Late End Gamers.

Edited February 13, 2015 by deadinflict

[VKhaun]

No thank you. I like this game very much as a gear collection instead of a gear progression. Let cores / creds and fusion be the progression we get over time. Keep weapons and affinity nice and short term IMO.

 

Though in fairness DE does seem to be leaning your way, with the new weapon crafting progressions that use older low tier weapons as prerequisites.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

If you were to do that kind of idea, you would want to mark someone out with the "Skill" tab and have it a non early alpha build.

 

The skill would be decided through length and amount of damage / kills on average per mission or something along those lines.

That could then give the player after a while, a different color or look or whatever you are getting at.

 

This also would not address power creep in the slightest, just the relation to Newer / Mid Tier person - End / Late End Gamers.

 

If you went only with a visual mark to delineate between new and veteran I would agree, but I am suggesting that a negative stigma be applied to new players that is mitigated through playtime and skill. Nothing game breaking, but enough to show that a player that hones their mind through battle has mastered the corruptive influence of the void and can walk through the battlefield without concern of loosing their grip with reality. Or something along those lines. Thanks though, it demands clarification.

No thank you. I like this game very much as a gear collection instead of a gear progression. Let cores / creds and fusion be the progression we get over time. Keep weapons and affinity nice and short term IMO.

 

Though in fairness DE does seem to be leaning your way, with the new weapon crafting progressions that use older low tier weapons as prerequisites.

 

 

Pretty sure, I was suggesting a method that would not gate gear at all. Did I somehow do the opposite of my intention?

Edited February 13, 2015 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX

[Burns2PvP]

Going to say, it was a bit hard to read at some points. Throw in a TL;DR to save yourself people that also don't understand, like myself.

[Adaptor-Face]

so something like a reversed gate crash effect on newer players (not that extreme though) that only applies in void missions? sure (it gets slowly reduced though playing regular missions)

 

I agree that newer players acquiring the "best" weapons so early is a problem, but it is more a community problem than a game problem. any weapon can go to 40min T4S, including the MK1s, and the community needs to realise this

Edited February 13, 2015 by Adaptor-Face

[Burns2PvP]

so something like a reversed gate crash effect on newer players (not that extreme though) that only applies in void missions? sure (it gets slowly reduced though playing regular missions)

 

I agree that newer players acquiring the "best" weapons so early is a problem, but it is more a community problem than a game problem. any weapon can go to 40min T4S, including the MK1s, and the community needs to realise this

Best solution for voids imo would be to raise tf out of their levels.

 

15 t1 start

30 t2

45 t3

60 t4

 

Increase the worth of items in market, reduce some players from having it. Makes a more balanced trade system as it is harder to get.

Ontop of that, the endgamers will have more fun for the challenge.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

Going to say, it was a bit hard to read at some points. Throw in a TL;DR to save yourself people that also don't understand, like myself.

 

tl;dr's are a crutch of the internet generation. sigh, alas I shall submit.

 

so something like a reversed gate crash effect on newer players (not that extreme though) that only applies in void missions? sure (it gets slowly reduced though playing regular missions)

 

I agree that newer players acquiring the "best" weapons so early is a problem, but it is more a community problem than a game problem. any weapon can go to 40min T4S, including the MK1s, and the community needs to realise this

 

Ah, great point. Limiting the stigma to exposure to void maps might be an extremely good idea. Though, only if the balance only feels necessary for access to the void. Players to buy gear still can rock the face off a boss harder than they arguably should. Maybe, the void increases the stigma's severity, while progression from outside mitigates it. Making the void easier to confront the more experienced they become.

[XAN3MK]

While I understand what you are trying to push across, I feel it is just another gimmicky mechanic that adds nothing to the game as a whole.

Personaly, I'd rather Warframe adopted Path of Exile's way of progress, via complex and detailed mechanics and upgrades, and provide depth by allowing FAR larger customisation and diversity, instead of slapping all this gimmicky clutter (ala Kubrow and/or Archwing) which provide nothing substential to the game and are nothing more than additional busy-work.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

While I understand what you are trying to push across, I feel it is just another gimmicky mechanic that adds nothing to the game as a whole.

Personaly, I'd rather Warframe adopted Path of Exile's way of progress, via complex and detailed mechanics and upgrades, and provide depth by allowing FAR larger customisation and diversity, instead of slapping all this gimmicky clutter (ala Kubrow and/or Archwing) which provide nothing substential to the game and are nothing more than additional busy-work.

 

I am not familiar with the mechanics of Path of Exile. Perhaps you could share some of the merits of said games systems?

 

As far as Kubrows and Archwing being gimmicky culture, as it stands you are maybe correct. But, DE has been pretty good at sweeping iterative improvement to nearly every part of the game. The pet system is ripe for improvement, and Archwing is clearly a place of great potential for Warframe.

 

I didn't mention it explicitly in my OP, but I also like my idea because it can plot/lore thread into the game.

 

Edit: Oh and thank you for contributing.

Edited February 13, 2015 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX

[Samplon]

Best solution for voids imo would be to raise tf out of their levels.

 

15 t1 start

30 t2

45 t3

60 t4

 

Increase the worth of items in market, reduce some players from having it. Makes a more balanced trade system as it is harder to get.

Ontop of that, the endgamers will have more fun for the challenge.

 

I agree with this. Allowing the more powerful weapons and warframes to only drop on the higher level missions would make it harder for new players to attain. This way, Mastery Locking the weapons won't be necessary either. Right now, i don't feel that there's a huge difficulty difference between these void missions.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Samplon

[Koloricsi]

What is everybody's problem with MR gating?! As somebody already said on a different thread, if 90% of mmos, where do you see level 10- dudes running around with level 100 stuff??? Why the f*ck would it cut revenue? That's the point, a new player sees how awesome that weapon/equipment is and it inspires him to work towards that goal while not cutting 60% of the game's content, which is the number of weapons. I can't see the problem of people not being able to buy a certain equipment before he reaches the required experience (MR) level, and being able to only but it at that point if they still don't want to bother farming it out.

[Samplon]

What is everybody's problem with MR gating?! As somebody already said on a different thread, if 90% of mmos, where do you see level 10- dudes running around with level 100 stuff??? Why the f*ck would it cut revenue? That's the point, a new player sees how awesome that weapon/equipment is and it inspires him to work towards that goal while not cutting 60% of the game's content, which is the number of weapons. I can't see the problem of people not being able to buy a certain equipment before he reaches the required experience (MR) level, and being able to only but it at that point if they still don't want to bother farming it out.

 

The problem is that some players don't like wasting their time leveling up garbage equipment. All that time could be dedicated to forma-ing equipment that a player prefers to use instead. Not to mention that leveling up garbage equipment requires no skills at all.

[Koloricsi]

The problem is that some players don't like wasting their time leveling up garbage equipment. All that time could be dedicated to forma-ing equipment that a player prefers to use instead. Not to mention that leveling up garbage equipment requires no skills at all.

-.- If we apply this so common mindset to other games (because everyone seems to have this...) then every equipment is trash compared to the level 100 one. Doesn't that sound a bit, just a little bit strange to you? Also "don't like wasting time", i really don't want to go too deep into how wrong is the average player's attitude towards Warframe.....

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

What is everybody's problem with MR gating?! As somebody already said on a different thread, if 90% of mmos, where do you see level 10- dudes running around with level 100 stuff??? Why the f*ck would it cut revenue? That's the point, a new player sees how awesome that weapon/equipment is and it inspires him to work towards that goal while not cutting 60% of the game's content, which is the number of weapons. I can't see the problem of people not being able to buy a certain equipment before he reaches the required experience (MR) level, and being able to only but it at that point if they still don't want to bother farming it out.

 

I think this is something that is still being worked out in the market. Free 2 play is comparatively young, and many of the games you mention that would balk at a lvl 10 running around with lvl 100 gear often do so when those games use pay to win strategies to allow just that.

 

This is also mitigated by the fact that unlike newcomers perception, only a few weapons are really in a class of their own. Most weapons are capable enough against nearly all threats in the game (thanks to the modding system). Its just easier with these, "top tier weapons."

 

Warframe changes that relation by not gating to begin with. Its just grind/skill, or your cash. You decide how you want to play. It is clearly not perfect but it has changed the paradigm. Now the industry watches Warframe in the F2P sphere.

Edited February 13, 2015 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX

[Samplon]

-.- If we apply this so common mindset to other games (because everyone seems to have this...) then every equipment is trash compared to the level 100 one. Doesn't that sound a bit, just a little bit strange to you? Also "don't like wasting time", i really don't want to go too deep into how wrong is the average player's attitude towards Warframe.....

 

I never said to just allow everyone easy access to the high tier equipment. I don't know where you got that assumption from.

Also, unlike those RPG games where you earn stronger equipment as you level up, just about every weapon in this game is "capable enough against nearly all threats". At the end of the day, no matter how good a weapon is in this game, you won't get very far with it without having the right mods for it.

 

I personally don't even care to use overrated weapons such as the Soma Prime, Boltor Prime, and Synoid Gammacor because there are plenty of other good weapons. 

 

I play Warframe because it is Warframe. I certainly don't want it to be like one of those RPG games where you progressively get better gear as you level up and then every gear you've acquired before that becomes obsolete. 

Edited February 13, 2015 by Samplon

[XAN3MK]

I am not familiar with the mechanics of Path of Exile. Perhaps you could share some of the merits of said games systems?

 

As far as Kubrows and Archwing being gimmicky culture, as it stands you are maybe correct. But, DE has been pretty good at sweeping iterative improvement to nearly every part of the game. The pet system is ripe for improvement, and Archwing is clearly a place of great potential for Warframe.

 

I didn't mention it explicitly in my OP, but I also like my idea because it can plot/lore thread into the game.

 

Edit: Oh and thank you for contributing.

 

PoE's skill system, which is give or take the equivalent of our modding system, is far more sprawling, complicated and detailed, and while it does have certain keystones that are obviously superior and more vital from others, it allows for insane levels of customisation (Think of Final Fantasy X Sphere Grid, if you are familiar with that title). The other thing is the way they handle their loot drop in the sense that the loot tables in that game are FAR more diluted that what we have in Warframe yet obtaining loot feels infinitely more rewarding. It is not a surprise that people like it when the enemies drop relevant loot as well, instead of praying that they might get a certain reward by the end of the mission.

 

The last thing is the way enemies scale, as in, it is a more controlled environment, and while health and damage indeed scale to one-shottable potential, they are never really the crutch. Think of them as our "Eximus" but with way more modifiers. So, as an example, lets say we have an Eximus Bombard who has frost resistence, has a chance to apply frost status effect which each hit, leaches life with every hit and reflects physical damage back to the attack -- and then this kind of enemies are grouped in different categories (think rare, champion, unique, elite etc. etc.) which determine the complexity and the count of the modifiers and this enemies are pretty much all that you end up seeing in high level missions. So, instead of fighting an infinately scaling bullet sponges you end up with a game where you have to take in consideration how you approach your enemies.

 

All this is not necessarily relevant to your OP, but you did ask for explanation so there it is :P

 

As for Archwing, my "issue" with it is that it was not needed, per se, plus the idea that DE will keep linking relevant progression and power increasing content to a mode a lot of people feel it is a gimmicky waste of time and have no interest in it, yet be forced to invest in it or give up on certain (event) rewards. The way I see it, the only way Archwing can end up being decent is if it remains contained in its own ecosystem and with rewards and events that only put content to that ecosystem. that way, those who enjoy Archwing can keep investing in it, while those who have 0 interest in it can completely ignore it and not feel like they are missing on something.

 

What is everybody's problem with MR gating?! As somebody already said on a different thread, if 90% of mmos, where do you see level 10- dudes running around with level 100 stuff??? Why the f*ck would it cut revenue? That's the point, a new player sees how awesome that weapon/equipment is and it inspires him to work towards that goal while not cutting 60% of the game's content, which is the number of weapons. I can't see the problem of people not being able to buy a certain equipment before he reaches the required experience (MR) level, and being able to only but it at that point if they still don't want to bother farming it out.

 

The problem is not with the MR gating, but with the fact that MR is a broken, useless and unfit for purpose system. There is no skill, effort and any kind of illusionary complexity to the system, it is just a "Look at all the garbage I've ranked up to increase my Mastery Rank" and nothing more. It is an artifical content bloat and one that is ever so glearing when you take in consideration that you have access to 90% of the gear in the game by the time you are MR6, MR8 unlocks the last few pieces of gear and MR10 unlocks your last extractor. After that you might as well stop giving an effin F about MR because it is about as useless as it can get.

 

Trying to link any form of relevant mechanics or progression to a system that is flawed by design is well, just a bad game design, and it is a good thing that we haven't really done it thus far. All in all, the MR system either needs a complete rework, from scratch, or to be canned completely.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

In response to XAN3MK statement:

PoE's skill system, which is give or take the equivalent of our modding system, is far more sprawling, complicated and detailed, and while it does have certain keystones that are obviously superior and more vital from others, it allows for insane levels of customisation (Think of Final Fantasy X Sphere Grid, if you are familiar with that title). The other thing is the way they handle their loot drop in the sense that the loot tables in that game are FAR more diluted that what we have in Warframe yet obtaining loot feels infinitely more rewarding. It is not a surprise that people like it when the enemies drop relevant loot as well, instead of praying that they might get a certain reward by the end of the mission.

 

The last thing is the way enemies scale, as in, it is a more controlled environment, and while health and damage indeed scale to one-shottable potential, they are never really the crutch. Think of them as our "Eximus" but with way more modifiers. So, as an example, lets say we have an Eximus Bombard who has frost resistence, has a chance to apply frost status effect which each hit, leaches life with every hit and reflects physical damage back to the attack -- and then this kind of enemies are grouped in different categories (think rare, champion, unique, elite etc. etc.) which determine the complexity and the count of the modifiers and this enemies are pretty much all that you end up seeing in high level missions. So, instead of fighting an infinately scaling bullet sponges you end up with a game where you have to take in consideration how you approach your enemies.

 

All this is not necessarily relevant to your OP, but you did ask for explanation so there it is :P

 

As for Archwing, my "issue" with it is that it was not needed, per se, plus the idea that DE will keep linking relevant progression and power increasing content to a mode a lot of people feel it is a gimmicky waste of time and have no interest in it, yet be forced to invest in it or give up on certain (event) rewards. The way I see it, the only way Archwing can end up being decent is if it remains contained in its own ecosystem and with rewards and events that only put content to that ecosystem. that way, those who enjoy Archwing can keep investing in it, while those who have 0 interest in it can completely ignore it and not feel like they are missing on something.

 

 

The problem is not with the MR gating, but with the fact that MR is a broken, useless and unfit for purpose system. There is no skill, effort and any kind of illusionary complexity to the system, it is just a "Look at all the garbage I've ranked up to increase my Mastery Rank" and nothing more. It is an artifical content bloat and one that is ever so glearing when you take in consideration that you have access to 90% of the gear in the game by the time you are MR6, MR8 unlocks the last few pieces of gear and MR10 unlocks your last extractor. After that you might as well stop giving an effin F about MR because it is about as useless as it can get.

 

Trying to link any form of relevant mechanics or progression to a system that is flawed by design is well, just a bad game design, and it is a good thing that we haven't really done it thus far. All in all, the MR system either needs a complete rework, from scratch, or to be canned completely.

 

I'll have to take your word on the virtue of PoE's skill tree. The enemy factor, I would agree, could use some love. More diverse attributes and a smarter AI, that scales, could impact play by requiring an ever growing skill in the game. This should be happening anyways.

 

I believe, more so even than before, Archwing is independent to the rest of the game. With the possible exception of a future mission type being a hybrid of game types you needn't play Archwing, unless you are looking for more MR fodder.

 

Thanks for the input. I am still internalizing your post, so more thought are forthcoming.

[Koloricsi]

The problem is not with the MR gating, but with the fact that MR is a broken, useless and unfit for purpose system. There is no skill, effort and any kind of illusionary complexity to the system, it is just a "Look at all the garbage I've ranked up to increase my Mastery Rank" and nothing more. It is an artifical content bloat and one that is ever so glearing when you take in consideration that you have access to 90% of the gear in the game by the time you are MR6, MR8 unlocks the last few pieces of gear and MR10 unlocks your last extractor. After that you might as well stop giving an effin F about MR because it is about as useless as it can get.

 

Trying to link any form of relevant mechanics or progression to a system that is flawed by design is well, just a bad game design, and it is a good thing that we haven't really done it thus far. All in all, the MR system either needs a complete rework, from scratch, or to be canned completely.

Well, i give you that you are correct about the mastery rank, but i was sticking to it because  that is the only indicator of anything even remotely comparable to a progression system. Also most guns being "garbage" is also a pretty big design flaw, tho i don't see them as such and i'm probably alone with it. Obviously there are weapons i consider really bad but i kinda enjoyed most while i was leveling them, and i enjoy the boltor and such the least...

(Also just for clarification, im mr 16)

[Adaptor-Face]

Well, i give you that you are correct about the mastery rank, but i was sticking to it because  that is the only indicator of anything even remotely comparable to a progression system. Also most guns being "garbage" is also a pretty big design flaw, tho i don't see them as such and i'm probably alone with it. Obviously there are weapons i consider really bad but i kinda enjoyed most while i was leveling them, and i enjoy the boltor and such the least...

(Also just for clarification, im mr 16)

you are not alone. i rock the MK1 braton from time to time in T4S, but i generaly go to weapons that is not "normal" like phage, amprex, glaxion, nukor, anything that does not feel like a normal gun

 

All weapons can do a good job anywhere in the inteded endgame, even blast corrosive MK1-Braton

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

you are not alone. i rock the MK1 braton from time to time in T4S, but i generaly go to weapons that is not "normal" like phage, amprex, glaxion, nukor, anything that does not feel like a normal gun

 

All weapons can do a good job anywhere in the inteded endgame, even blast corrosive MK1-Braton

 

Lol, the good ol' mk-1 Braton in the void is a bit excessive to prove a point, but bravo. 

 

I am in a agreement that part of the problem is perception of weapon value. However, one cannot deny that half or more of the game feels challenges when you have prematurely acquire a Rhino Prime and a Soma Prime. The Defensive potential of A Rhino and the initial quality of damage on a Soma makes for a pretty big power jump. Not conquer the T4 void instantly level, but certainly takes away the sense of threat the enemy brings to bare unless you go to Ceres, Pluto or high level Towers. Hence the desire to implement some form of progression that addresses this issue. 

 

I am attempting to find a solution that doesn't go straight to gating gear. Stigmatizing new players with Tenno on the brink of madness until they remaster their Warframes through hardened battle is one suggestion. So, as fine as it is that you pre-aquired a fancy Prime-whatever and a Boltor Prime, your mentally disturbed Tenno is still gonna get the shakes (just an example) when he faces the corrupted hoard. And the tremors of your nightmare will cary with you until you can once again conquer your mystifying powers.

Edited February 13, 2015 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX

[Koloricsi]

you are not alone. i rock the MK1 braton from time to time in T4S, but i generaly go to weapons that is not "normal" like phage, amprex, glaxion, nukor, anything that does not feel like a normal gun

 

All weapons can do a good job anywhere in the inteded endgame, even blast corrosive MK1-Braton

Tho they are indeed not normal weapons, they are pretty decent and widely used, like phage, amprex and glaxion. I sometimes have fun with max fire rate and ammo mutiation build with twin vipers and such. For example, i really loved Karak, Buzlok, Vectis for primaries. I've been using Acrid even after they nerfed it horribly. As for melee daggers are my favorite type, even if they are horrible by design (being so slow an such) but all time favorite it not as uncommon, being the nikana, cuz let's be honest here, its a fkin katana :D

Edited February 13, 2015 by Koloricsi

[Opellulo]

Imho the prime parts shower is going to end soon and I think it will be replaced by rewards via quest chains unlockable by mastery rank (or plat).

There will be the usual complaints but in the end the system will be fine.