Synoid Gammacor Does Not Need Changes, It Is Already Balanced

[Faulcun]

Armor is a problem that needs to be looked at for long term game balance, but the Synoid is something that can be fixed right now. Very tired of seeing 1-2 members in each pub squad using a Synoid.

 

My issue isnt with the gammacor getting a nerf or not. Its with comments like that one. That is not a gun problem, that is a personal problem, and not even close to a good excuse to alter a weapon, buff or nerf.

[Magneu]

My issue isnt with the gammacor getting a nerf or not. Its with comments like that one. That is not a gun problem, that is a personal problem, and not even close to a good excuse to alter a weapon, buff or nerf.

It is a gun problem not because it's the best gun in the game, but because it's the best by such a massive margin (along with almost no downsides). I would normally say paper DPS=/= game DPS, but 25 meter perfect accuracy is pretty perfect for most encounters in the game. As soon as you hit that 25 meter, you get full DPS. No wind up, no accuracy problems...just the finger of God distilled into a handheld laser.

[BluelitHalo]

I'm personally of the mindset that if a weapon like Synoid is gonna be so damn powerful, then it has to either be situational or require a substantial amount of skill input from the player to utilize.  Currently, it's a continuous firing, straight laser pointer with high ammo efficiency, perfect accuracy (meaning you can score headshots more easily with this than any other weapon with basic tracking skills, upping your effective damage output by ~1.5x depending on how well you can track), and high sustained damage output (~50k) at a safe-enough range in a majority of tilesets to put not only all secondaries, but all primaries to shame.

 

Take the Kohm, for example.  You'd think it's the king of damage in the game with it boasting a potential 90k DPS, but in reality, but it is certainly not the king of reliable damage.  It has a spread that goes all over the place, limiting its effective range to 10-15 meters to even be able to pump out something similar to Boltor Prime damage output.  In order to truly get that 90k DPS, you have to be in the enemy's face which is just suicide.

 

Brakk has crazy high burst damage, but's still limited to around 30k sustained DPS, along with having spread and falloff so that you must get in close range to utilize the thing to its fullest.

 

(Vaykor) Marelok and (Telos) Akbolto have spread and recoil going against them, which can be worse to control with a mouse-wheel macro.

 

Boltor Prime is projectile-based and has spread going against it with Heavy Caliber on.  Soma Prime's spread can get crazy with Heavy Caliber.  Both can only get around 20-30k sustained DPS, and you're not guaranteed to make every bullet count with the fast firing rates of these things.  Maybe putting on a lower rank Heavy Caliber would benefit weapon control, at the cost of valuable damage output that can't even break that of Synoid's in the first place even if you used an aimbot.

 

All of those downsides, and the Synoid just gets a lousy 25-meter range slapped onto it as if that justifies (lol) its low-skill-in to monumental-power-out ratio.  Anyone still using the range argument in defense of the Synoid just doesn't know how long 25 meters is in Warframe at all (and by that logic, the Embolist should be absolutely facerolling).

 

Yeah, Warframe may be a loot-driven game in which the player deserves a great reward for, in this case, grinding for Syndicate rep.  However, it's also a third-person shooter, and as such, skill-input to power-output ratios should also be taken into consideration when reviewing weapons and weapon balance.  Looking at it this way, the Synoid is just too disproportionately powerful for the effort put into operating this thing, and thus needs dampening whether it's in damage output or mechanics.

 

To anyone that's gonna shove the "don't like it, don't use it" ad-hoc "balance" card into my face: If no balance happens, players will inevitably continue to take the path of least resistance and effectively turn the game into a joke at a faster rate just by having this weapon built and maxed out.  If balance happens, by then it'll be the first step in attempting to achieve Syndicate weapon balance since those weapons that take roughly equal amounts of work to get shouldn't have to be tiered separately to begin with; it won't fix all of Warframe's balancing issues, but it'll surely be a sign of a trend coming along.

 

No one would enjoy seeing this weapon become "meh", but at the same time, when it's out-performing every other weapon in its own Meta Knight-like, pre-nerf Iron Skin-like tier, there's a problem whether or not you can face this fact.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Sonitorum

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

"Those who do not learn form history are doomed to repeat it." -some guy

 

DE's staff obviously flunked out of all their history classes. The Synoid Gammacor is the Acrid all over again. It's another secondary weapon that absolutely blows every other weapon in the game out of the water, even every single primary (Except the Kohm, of course. 100k DPS representin'.)

 

As of right now, the only primary weapons I would ever consider using in high levels are the Kohm and Dread, and the only secondaries are the Synoid Gammacor and the Rakta Ballistica. There's just no reason to ever use anything else. the Dread's DPS isn't even that high, I just pair it with the Synoid for longer ranges.

 

"But what if none of those weapons suit my playstyle?" Well sucks to be you, little Timmy! Use these four guns or put yourself at a massive disadvantage!

 

I can only assume DE is ignorant to these problems, because I just can't accept that DE wants the weapon balance to be so atrocious.

 

Secondary weapons in general far out-DPS primaries. The Kohm is actually the only primary capable of having higher DPS than any of the top tier secondaries. there are four reasons for this:

1. Hornet Strike increases damage by 220% as opposed to 165% with Serration.

2. Barrel diffusion increases multishot by 120% as opposed to 90% with Split Chamber.

3. Lethal Torrent exists.

4. Primed Heated Charge exists.

 

Unmodded, the Synoid Gammacor and Boltor Prime have almost identical DPS. If these four problems were solved, there would actually be a reason to use primary weapons again.

 

The only remaining problem would be the Kohm, because seriously, 100k DPS, I mean Jesus f***ing Christ.

Edited March 13, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[vaugahn]

The only remaining problem would be the Kohm, because seriously, 5x the DPS of the Boltor Prime, I mean Jesus f***ing Christ.

 

Now I agree with you on the Synoid, but have you ever used the Kohm? Now more than ever that number is purely theoretical.

[NocturneOfSolace]

Considering that the Synoid Gammacor has literally twice the DPS of the Boltor Prime (assuming you don't like ammo issues), It's safe to say that this isn't about ruining a weapon out of malice. What kind of idiot would think that the Warframe community would want to harm the game they love?

 

This isn't just an issue of the number of upsides and downsides, this is an issue of how much one weapon absolutely towers over everything else in terms of killing power. The other top tier secondaries come close to the Synoid (so close, yet so far, Brakk), but never surpass it, and the only weapon in the game capable of surpassing it is the Kohm. The only secondary weapon I feel you could argue is on par is the Rakta Ballisica, which has solid DPS and range.

 

What do you sacrifice for having literally twice the DPS of the best rifle in the game? A minor range loss? 25m is hardly "french kissing" and the Synoid's DPS is already so apocalyptic that a range extension mod won't hurt it too much.

 

You act like a 25m range cap with no range mods actually justifies having twice the killing power of the best rifle in the game. It doesn't.

completely untrue

Can you please not state falsehoods

[Faulcun]

It is a gun problem not because it's the best gun in the game, but because it's the best by such a massive margin (along with almost no downsides). I would normally say paper DPS=/= game DPS, but 25 meter perfect accuracy is pretty perfect for most encounters in the game. As soon as you hit that 25 meter, you get full DPS. No wind up, no accuracy problems...just the finger of God distilled into a handheld laser.

 

Then stick with that reasoning, not because you dont like seeing the weapon in the hands of scrubs all the time.

[Magneu]

completely untrue

Can you please not state falsehoods

I didn't do whatever math he did. BUT, I did do the math that shows that the Synoid has 27% more burst and 52% sustained than the frickin Boltor Prime. Mechanics easily favor the Synoid with both builds (max Heavy Caliber, 3.3 seconds firing, projectiles vs. 11.6 seconds firing, perfect accuracy, 25 meters range (essentially effective range for the Boltor Prime with that build), with another 5 clips in reserve...plus it uses pistol ammo), as well as being pure elemental (Magnetic doesn't even matter; with said build it hits 64k burst DPS against alloy). These numbers aren't falsehoods. They're uncomfortable truths that your favorite laser pointer of death is way too powerful for anything but level 100+ enemies (don't even try to pull the "we need strong weapons for end game" argument...Tenn0s did a 7 HOUR run I believe last summer. Many hour, even two plus hour runs happened before the Synoid/Boltor Prime/Soma Prime). You also cherry-picked his argument for a single statement, completely ignoring the detailed argument of the mechanics of the Synoid vs everything else not justifying its insane numbers.

 

We don't need weapons this strong. We need players more willing to use actual weapons instead of a *click-and-dead* laser pointer. 

Edited March 13, 2015 by Magneu

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

completely untrue

Can you please not state falsehoods

 

Completely untrue.

 

You're the one who needs to stop stating falsehoods.

 

With both weapons maxed, the Boltor Prime has 41k burst while the Synoid Gammacor has 56k, so I guess it's not completely true. However, in the real game, sustained is the DPS you'll actually be doing, and the Boltor Prime has 23k while the Synoid Gammacor has well over double at 48k.

 

However, the Boltor Prime's DPS could be said to be even lower. The Synoid Gammacor can be modded for max DPS without ammo issues, but if you don't want to waste resources spamming ammo restores, the Boltor Prime needs ammo mutation. With ammo mutation, the burst becomes 22k and the sustained becomes 16k, both well below half the 56k burst and 48k of the Synoid Gammacor.

 

EDIT: Kohm still has 100k, apparently. Get rekt, game balance.

Edited March 13, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[DarkLordX2]

You balance experts should go play with level 80+ enemies and come back here tell me more about balance.

Furthermore, the only half decent weapon at those ranges are bows.

 

Maybe we should nerf paris prime and dread now too? They have also too many "Positives" and not many downsides.

 

 

I am really glad DE never reads these forums.

 

One thing you never bother to answer, what are you balancing the sgammacor to? Its peers?

Meanwhile, there are things like the amprex...

Let's see:

-Charge time

-Flight time

-Low accuracy on uncharged shot

-Small ammo pool

-Rare ammo type

-Slow Fire rate

 

Need more?

 

Also, do you realize that the Amprex has a shorter range than the S. Gammacor, right?

Edited March 13, 2015 by DarkLordX2

[Rorgal_Sina]

Amprex runs out of ammo WAY too fast.

[Faulcun]

 

Completely untrue.

 

You're the one who needs to stop stating falsehoods.

 

With both weapons maxed, the Boltor Prime has 41k burst while the Synoid Gammacor has 56k, so I guess it's not completely true. However, in the real game, sustained is the DPS you'll actually be doing, and the Boltor Prime has 23k while the Synoid Gammacor has well over double at 48k.

 

However, the Boltor Prime's DPS could be said to be even lower. The Synoid Gammacor can be modded for max DPS without ammo issues, but if you don't want to waste resources spamming ammo restores, the Boltor Prime needs ammo mutation. With ammo mutation, the burst becomes 22k and the sustained becomes 16k, both well below half the 56k burst and 48k of the Synoid Gammacor.

 

EDIT: Kohm still has 100k, apparently. Get rekt, game balance.

 

When do those numbers even matter!

[DarkLordX2]

Yet the marelok is better than the grinlok, its longer sniper version.

 

The marelok is both a sidearm, better sniper and does huge damange with no downsides plus AoE. The marelok is OP.

The akbolto with macro can stomp everything. What are the downsides?

 

Again, this has nothing got to do with balance, just about ruining a weapon.

Since when the Blast AoE is "OP"?

And what makes you think that everybody that uses the Telos AkBolto plays with Macros?

 

And this has nothing to do with ruining a weapon, just about balance.

 

By the way, the Vaykor has more disavantages than the Synoid, just to let you know.

[HibikiGanaha]

Cool, 10 seconds of firing time. The Synoid has 15 seconds of firing time with a typical build, 11.6 seconds with an absolute max damage build. And FYI, the ragdoll damage is the damage from the killing shot...a bit over 1k on a good Boltor Prime build. All those weapons you listed are good, but nowhere near Synoid's level. Glaxion has ammo issues, Phage has focus time, Quanta has mediocre DPS with main fire, biggest draw is alt fire spam, Amprex admittedly can CC like a monster but consumes ammo crazy fast AND has a shorter range than the Synoid. None of these weapons, with the exception of a max Primed Point Blank Phage can break half the sustained DPS of the Synoid, not to mention burst. The Synoid also has the greatest time spent firing compared to each of these weapons, as well as a disproportionately large reserve ammo for its weapon type. I know that paper DPS=/=game DPS, but when most encounters take place within 25 meters, and most team compositions have ways to get close without taking damage (or outright shutdown enemies), the Synoid dominates all competition without breaking a sweat. The numbers are obscenely inflated compared to every other weapon in the game, ignoring its ease of use, ammo efficiency, innate Entropy effect...it's blatantly OP, and I'm starting to think people who defend it and want absolutely no nerfs on it are just scared of having their laser-pointer-of-God taken away.

 

Reduce range to 15-18 meters? That's balanced. Increase ammo consumption per damage? That's balance. Decrease max reserve ammo/clip size? That's balanced.

 

Do nothing? That's not healthy for game balance in the long term when a single weapon defeats EVERY other weapon in the game.  

Really only seeing your argument as valid on survival.  On the star chart, anything with longer ranger is capable of outperforming the gammacor in non-endless modes.  Synoid gammacor is among the worst guns for Hijack missions.  On endless modes, it is not always the best gun to pick.  For interception, the weapon doesn't matter at all.  For defense, all guns fall off around the same point.  You can't hit guys behind the planters if you stay inside a frost bubble on t4d.  Excavation it is REALLY BAD for defending drills.  Should a gun be balanced around one game mode?

 

Raids have been shown with massive tiles and puzzles where you need to stand in one spot.  Gammcor is not going to be OP there either.

 

It doesn't defeat every other weapon in all situations.  It's not even the best at clearing hallways.

[HibikiGanaha]

Considering that the Synoid Gammacor has literally twice the DPS of the Boltor Prime (assuming you don't like ammo issues), It's safe to say that this isn't about ruining a weapon out of malice. What kind of idiot would think that the Warframe community would want to harm the game they love?

 

This isn't just an issue of the number of upsides and downsides, this is an issue of how much one weapon absolutely towers over everything else in terms of killing power. The other top tier secondaries come close to the Synoid (so close, yet so far, Brakk), but never surpass it, and the only weapon in the game capable of surpassing it is the Kohm. The only secondary weapon I feel you could argue is on par is the Rakta Ballisica, which has solid DPS and range.

 

What do you sacrifice for having literally twice the DPS of the best rifle in the game? A minor range loss? 25m is hardly "french kissing" and the Synoid's DPS is already so apocalyptic that a range extension mod won't hurt it too much.

 

You act like a 25m range cap with no range mods actually justifies having twice the killing power of the best rifle in the game. It doesn't.

it's not twice as much

 

 

Yes, armor is a big problem for game balance. The problem with the Synoid in particular is that it's burst/sustained DPs not only shadow the entire beam class, but every weapon in the game. Armor is a problem that needs to be looked at for long term game balance, but the Synoid is something that can be fixed right now. Very tired of seeing 1-2 members in each pub squad using a Synoid. Customization is awesome, but when the Synoid is so strong, the variety of weapons in the game starts to shrink as practically everyone starts to use the strongest weapon (I.E. Synoid), which is also the easiest to use weapon.

 

Shamelessly self-promoting, but I made a post higher up this thread detailing number differences between Boltor Prime (one of the strongest weapons in the game) and the Synoid, as well as some mention of the in game effects of their respective builds. The Synoid outclasses the Boltor Prime 10:1.

it's not 10:1

[HibikiGanaha]

I know that paper DPS=/=game DPS, but when most encounters take place within 25 meters, and most team compositions have ways to get close without taking damage (or outright shutdown enemies), the Synoid dominates all competition without breaking a sweat.

 

Thank you! A person with sense in this thread. Brakk has abysmal range, Rakta has weird mechanics, yet both can't match the DPs/ease of use/ammo efficiency of the Synoid. Too many people like having a nuke focused into a laser pointer that trivializes the game that can shoot practically forever. There is no variety at high levels anymore; it's Synoid or GTFO for too many groups that I've been invited to.

You were JUST arguing how range didn't matter since you can CC rooms with frames and now you are arguing how the brakk has abysmal range?  You can't argue for both sides for when it conveniences your point.  Pick one and stick to it.

[HibikiGanaha]

All of those downsides, and the Synoid just gets a lousy 25-meter range slapped onto it as if that justifies (lol) its low-skill-in to monumental-power-out ratio.  Anyone still using the range argument in defense of the Synoid just doesn't know how long 25 meters is in Warframe at all (and by that logic, the Embolist should be absolutely facerolling).

Already proved I know how long 25m is in Warframe, so try again with a real argument.

 

Embolist does faceroll, I was wrecking lvl 80-90 corpus with only 4 damage mods on it.

[Magneu]

You were JUST arguing how range didn't matter since you can CC rooms with frames and now you are arguing how the brakk has abysmal range?  You can't argue for both sides for when it conveniences your point.  Pick one and stick to it.

Brakk falloff starts at 8-10 meters; if you want to stay alive against high level enemies at that range, you better have some form of damage mitigation/CC on said enemy. Range does matter when a weapon like the Embolist has what, 6-8 meters? 25 meters is more than enough range. I can hit guys behind the planters taking maybe one step out of a normal sized globe. Dropping a damage mod for range extension STILL puts the Synoid as the top damaging weapon in game, especially related to ammo economy. 

 

Already proved I know how long 25m is in Warframe, so try again with a real argument.

 

Embolist does faceroll, I was wrecking lvl 80-90 corpus with only 4 damage mods on it.

A pure Toxin weapon is good against Corpus? Shocking. Especially considering how squishy Crewmen are. Still, the 3 basic damage mods and max Pathogen rounds is giving me 6.2k sustained vs Crewmen Flesh. they can hit pretty hard at that level, I find it hard to believe you facetanked them without some sort of damage mitigation or CC. It doesn't matter you know how long 25 meters is, it matters that most engagements in the game take place at 25 meters. IDK about you, but I can stay fairly close to the core/rover and still hit guys with a 25 meter range (Ruinous Extension isn't even that big of a DPS loss), and a good amount of defense maps have enemies hiding behind cover that's within 25 meters. Even in survival, most encounters aren't the player staring down a long hallway, it's defending chokepoints/fighting in corridors. If the Synoid had a 15 meter range, I wouldn't even be here arguing. But 25 meters (top of all beam weapons except Quanta) is too long to justify it's insane DPS numbers and economy.

[weezedog]

The Synoid Gammacor is the Flux Rifle 2.0. Back when the Flux Rifle first came out, in Damage 1.0, it was the best weapon in game. It was one of the few weapons that completely bypassed all armor and would cut through heavy gunners and infested ancients like butter. You could take an unranked Flux Rifle into a level 30+ mission and destroy stuff with ease. High damage, large 200 round clip, and decent reload speed. Sound familiar?

High damage, large mag, decent reload speed combined does make it a bit OP. Generally to keep things balanced you get high damage with a small mag, or low damage with with a large mag, not both. And large mags usually have slow reload speeds, which 2.0 sec for 75 rounds in a secondary is quite fast.

And it is incredibly ammo effecient. The only downside is the 25m range. Very much reminds me of the Flux Rifle, which got nerfed into the ground with damage 2.0.

Edited March 15, 2015 by weezedog

[Azamagon]

The Synoid Gammacor is the Flux Rifle 2.0. Back when the Flux Rifle first came out, in Damage 1.0, it was the best weapon in game. It was one of the few weapons that completely bypassed all armor and would cut through heavy gunners and infested ancients like butter. You could take an unranked Flux Rifle into a level 30+ mission and destroy stuff with ease. High damage, large 200 round clip, and decent reload speed. Sound familiar?

High damage, large mag, decent reload speed combined does make it a bit OP. Generally to keep things balanced you get high damage with a small mag, or low damage with with a large mag, not both. And large mags usually have slow reload speeds, which 2.0 sec for 75 rounds in a secondary is quite fast.

And it is incredibly ammo effecient. The only downside is the 25m range. Very much reminds me of the Flux Rifle, which got nerfed into the ground with damage 2.0.

The old Flux Rifle wasn't even nearly as strong as the S.Gammacor is. The ONLY better part of it was that it ignored the armor (which can be ignored with Corrosive Projection, or some augmented skills, or mostly ignored with the help of Corrosive/Radiation these days anyway)

 

Compare these things, just so people understand how insanely much stronger the S.Gammacor is compared to the old Flux Rifle:

* Flux Rifle had (and still has) a rate of fire at 10, making it consume ammo very quickly, 5 times more quickly compared to the S.Gammacor. So just looking at ammo pickups, the S.Gammacor is already 5 times more efficient.

* Even though having 5 times slower ammo consumption, the S.Gammacor STILL also has a HIGHER dps than the old Flux Rifle. I don't remember the numbers exactly, but it had somewhere between 180 dps and 250 dps, while the S.Gammacor has 420!

* Flux Rifle's magsize was only 100 back then. If the S.Gammacor would have the same amount of shooting time as the old Flux Rifle had it would need to have its magsize reduced to 20, instead of 75. For ammo reserves, that would mean the S.Gammacor needs to have 108 in spare, to be similar to the old Flux Rifle's 540 (rather than the S.Gammacor's current 375). But, the S.Gammacor was nerfed to those numbers, it would still be in a major advantage compared to the old Flux Rifle, since ammo pickups are 5 times as efficient (AND it still deals double the dps on top of that), so the comparison is still not perfectly emphasized yet. So to REALLY put an emphasis on how efficient it is:

* If you put the S.Gammacor to have the same ammo consumption rate as the Flux Rifle (rate of fire at 10), while still keeping its current magsize and spare ammo equivalents, that means that its current magsize would be 375 and an ammo reserve of 1875. That while ALSO having pistol ammo pickups give you 100 ammo each! And that WHILE STILL HAVING ABOUT DOUBLE THE DPS.

* So, if you cut down the S.Gammacor's dps AND ammo consumption rate to be the same as the old Flux Rifle (which means cutting it down from its current 210 damage and 2 rate of fire (420 dps), to just ~21 damage and 10 rate of fire (210 dps, halfed of its current)), while still retaining its equivalent in magsize, spare ammo and ammo pickups as it has now it would mean that it would have: 750 magsize, 3750 spare ammo and 200 ammo per pistol ammo pickup...

 

That means, with similar dps and ammo consumption in contrast to the Flux Rifle: It would have 7,5x the magsize, ~6,94x the spare ammo and 10x the ammo pickup.

 

But in reality, due to not having the same dps nor ammo consumption, the real direct comparison is rather it having 2x the dps, 5x the ammo pickup and 5x slower ammo consumption rate with the only "downsides" being ~0,69x the spare ammo and 0,75x the magsize (which doesn't matter due to the massive ammo efficiency and dps differences)

 

So no, not a fair comparison AT ALL! The S.Gammacor is miles and miles and miles and miles ahead of even the old Flux Rifle...

The power creep is real... wait no, that's not the right term: The power LEAP is real people!

Edited March 15, 2015 by Azamagon

[HandsomeSorcerer]

The power creep is real... wait no, that's not the right term: The power LEAP is real people!

What power creep? The creep to the star map char?

 

WHat, should weapons be balanced to the level people like you who are MR0 and play mercury?

[Azamagon]

What power creep? The creep to the star map char?

 

WHat, should weapons be balanced to the level people like you who are MR0 and play mercury?

Power creep in comparison to the other weapons, duh >_>

 

And I'm MR19, please try again...

[HandsomeSorcerer]

Power creep in comparison to the other weapons, duh >_>

 

And I'm MR19, please try again...

 

Meh. You shiould try more then. Its not like power creep is even an argument, when you have other unbalanced weapons.

But I guess nothing should ever trump your favorites, right?

[Azamagon]

Meh. You shiould try more then. Its not like power creep is even an argument, when you have other unbalanced weapons.

But I guess nothing should ever trump your favorites, right?

I should try more? MR19 means i HAVE tried everything lol!

And yes, more weapons are unbalanced, just that the S.Gammacor is currently the most imbalanced of them all.

And I actually like the (Synoid) Gammacor, at least its looks are absolutely awesome! But being so blatantly overpowered makes it boring to use. And also the fact that it is yet ANOTHER continuous beamweapon (which obsoletes the Spectra and Nukor, weapons that could've needed tweaks rather than being ignored and overshadowed by the newest and shiniest) put me off from it quite a bit. I mean it could've been implemented more like Megaman's blaster, that would've been unique, new and fun!

Edited March 15, 2015 by Azamagon

[RealPandemonium]

What power creep? The creep to the star map char?

 

WHat, should weapons be balanced to the level people like you who are MR0 and play mercury?

They should be balanced for people who don't need things like the Synoid to play T4s.  Not everyone views Warframe as an online casino.