Handspring Shouldn't Be A Mod

[Effusion-]

Maybe if warframe was a side scrolling beat em up. Doesn't really fit with the whole 3rd person action thing, and since you get staggered so often, getting mobbed by chargers would ironically make you nearly invulnerable. 

No you wouldn't, you would still get CCed repeatedly and you would even take damage faster than you do currently.  You just wouldn't get stun locked.

[Mr.Kazimir]

100% agreed. We`re space ninjas for crying out loud! We shouldn`t need mods to execute a basic move like that. Have it cost 50% of your stamina if you will, but add it as a move and remove the mod.

[Stanzwick]

It seems that you're right; I just looked it up on youtube: 

 

I'm not terribly impressed with the animation, though. It's not really a handspring like the mod's picture would imply - more along the lines of a slightly modified recovery animation that already exists.

That looks...really boring.  Recovery doesn't seem near fast enough to ever warrant taking up a slot either (I was expecting a pretty much instant recovery for the use of a slot). 

[CosyPigeon]

Latest update did not fix this issue, despite the fact that the community has clearly expressed that handspring should not be a mod. Disappointed. 

[Cr4p]

+1

I think this kind of mods should have the ability / power polarity. Because those slots on a warframe are a hinderence to me most of the time.

That would be nice. I'd actually use it on some frames if it could be slotted in an ability slot in place of one of the abilities I don't use much, as it is, it's never going to make it into any of my builds.

[Gestalt]

From my point of view the solution to knock downs is, 'don't get knocked down'. Having a mechanic in game to mitigate a punishment for what is generally the result of sloppy play seems silly. There are a very limited number of enemies that have the ability to knock down player characters in game. Heavy Grineer, Ancients, Shockwave moa, and shield Grineer, on top of they can only knock down players in melee range.

 

 

 The entire point of the card is to give those who find the idea of spending a couple of seconds on their back intolerable an option to reduce the punishment aspect of knock downs. Not to implement a 'basic gameplay mechanic'.

The card attempts to trivialize knockdown (it doesn't; the time it shaves off is almost negligible). What DE should've done is add techroll to the core mechanic. Press a button or a combination/series of buttons after you've been knocked down but BEFORE you've hit the floor completely to execute a rolling manuver to get back on your feet a lot faster.

Rewards/gives a second chance to those who get knocked down, but are reflexive and observant enough to save themselves from further troubles. Still punishes those who are so inattentive, they missed the window of opportunity altogether.

[MJ12]

Latest update did not fix this issue, despite the fact that the community has clearly expressed that handspring should not be a mod. Disappointed. 

 

DE only listens to community feedback when the community feedback is absolutely terrible and ruins the game, it seems :(

 

Maybe that's confirmation bias at work but still.

 

Maybe they're working on it as part of Update 8? I really hope so.

[Gestalt]

Latest update did not fix this issue, despite the fact that the community has clearly expressed that handspring should not be a mod. Disappointed.

Well you have to remember it's not so cut and dry.

They did reward it as part of the extermination weekend top 100 rewards. They're also selling these in the platinum mod packs I believe (heard somewhere; not sure).

To just make this mod obsolete would get some other people riled up (extermination leaders/people who bought plat mods). If they replace handspring from the people who got it as reward/plat pack/drop, it'd have to be another new mod, and even if it's one of the same extreme rarity, they'd get players who don't like that new replacement mod as much crying foul.

Just saying that even if they have considered what we're asking here, it'd have to be thought out well to prevent backlash.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Gestalt

[MJ12]

Well you have to remember it's not so cut and dry.

They did reward it as part of the extermination weekend top 100 rewards. They're also selling these in the platinum mod packs I believe (heard somewhere; not sure).

To just make this mod obsolete would get some other people riled up (extermination leaders/people who bought plat mods). If they replace handspring from the people who got it as reward/plat pack/drop, it'd have to be another new mod, and even if it's one of the same extreme rarity, they'd get players who don't like that new replacement mod as much crying foul.

Just saying that even if they have considered what we're asking here, it'd have to be thought out well to prevent backlash.

 

Well, a few points:

 

1. Does anyone like Handspring? I'm getting the feeling that nobody really likes the mod as it is because of how gimmicky and bad it is, not to mention all the things talked about in this thread.

 

2. You could just go 'instead of Handspring here, have Thunderbolt/Retaliation/a random rare mod you don't have a copy of' in that rough order.

 

3. You could give people with the mod platinum back as recompense.

 

4. You could change Handspring into a 'CC resistance' mod, as I mentioned before, with a 25/50/75/100% chance of nullifying staggers and knockdowns.

[elindred]

The card attempts to trivialize knockdown (it doesn't; the time it shaves off is almost negligible). What DE should've done is add techroll to the core mechanic. Press a button or a combination/series of buttons after you've been knocked down but BEFORE you've hit the floor completely to execute a rolling manuver to get back on your feet a lot faster.

I came across something like this in a previous thread, and I think it's a great idea:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/27477-implementing-ukemi-into-warframe/?hl=ukemi

 

It seems they're more interested in making items harder to acquire without money than they are in presenting us with interesting options, however.

[PiggySaysWhat]

Welp, I'll put in my vote for what it's worth here near the edge of this topic's event horizon. I'm against the inclusion of this mod at least as it stands currently. Not so much because I had a problem with knockdown. Even when it caused me to die I never felt like I was being cheated. But because it is a waste of an interesting gameplay mechanic.

Knockdown, as CC, seems to act as a way to change up the flow of combat, right? It's about trying to create a cadence to your fighting so that it's not just constant hack, slash, boom. Sure, it's certainly a common enough mechanic. So then why not add its corresponding response? A timed button-push into backflip would cause you to probably lose just as much time from shooting between impact, reaction, and redraw/reorientation. It would however feel better to the player. They would now be actively engaging with your gameplay mechanic and feeling like they were playing the game properly while still having to deal with the flow you're looking to implement.

As knockdown stands in what I've gleaned from the hive-mind is as a 4th wall breaker more than anything else. Being killed from a cheap mechanic is one thing. Seeing something that takes you out of the flow of the game entirely is another. Knockdown pushes that boundary and it seems the majority of the comments make reference to feeling like they're pushed out of gameplay, rather than immersed in it by, even a detrimental, mechanic. The mod doesn't address that issue. It doesn't address the core flaw that knockdown interacts poorly with its given response in this type of fast-paced game. Just speeding up the jump-up animation doesn't fix that. At best all it could do is push knockdown into obsolesence by negating its effects. Which then begs the question of why even have knockdown if it isn't serving its intended purpose?

Does that mean I think you should turn the mod into an ability? Personally, no. I think that would find it to be underused. Now, making it an actual ability polarity skill makes that a perfectly viable choice as there are many players who rarely use all four of their warframe's abilities on any given run and having a replacement sounds productive. I just think that still doesn't address the issue of having a mechanic that doesn't have a logical response. Having a mod that enhanced that response, by making it easier to execute, more forgiving on whatever resource it uses, increasing its distance covered or adding a new effect to it like damage or energy recovery would make sense for a mod. But then all of that would imply that you have given the players a way to react to your gameplay mechanic which, if you haven't picked up in, is my point. The overall conclusion on the mod though is that there are many options in dealing with it--but it has to be addressed because it neither addresses the concern of your player base nor does anything other than diminish your own desired control over gameplay experience.

[elindred]

Whatever the previous guy just said.

[MJ12]

Update 8 has dropped: Handspring still exists, getting up still takes forever, and they added an enemy with an unavoidable knockdown move just to make sure you knew about it. I really should point this thread out to Steve and Rebecca via PM because it really seems like nobody's looked at it despite it having crap-tons of support.

[Gestalt]

Update 8 has dropped: Handspring still exists, getting up still takes forever, and they added an enemy with an unavoidable knockdown move just to make sure you knew about it. I really should point this thread out to Steve and Rebecca via PM because it really seems like nobody's looked at it despite it having crap-tons of support.

Please do MJ. It'd be nice if a non-rager were to bring this up to their attention (Lotus knows I've raged on here enough). Gives more credence to our position.

[MJ12]

Please do MJ. It'd be nice if a non-rager were to bring this up to their attention (Lotus knows I've raged on here enough). Gives more credence to our position.

 

Oh I rage a hell of a lot. Just that game design is something I'm pretty familiar with (from a tabletop perspective, though), as well as economics, so on the things most people complain about I have the knowledge to post "this is bad and should be changed" and articulate why I feel that way/why others feel that way instead of just raging.

 

Stunlock Man still needs to be bopped on the head with a volleyball though.

[AsianJoyKiller]

Oh I rage a hell of a lot. Just that game design is something I'm pretty familiar with (from a tabletop perspective, though), as well as economics, so on the things most people complain about I have the knowledge to post "this is bad and should be changed" and articulate why I feel that way/why others feel that way instead of just raging.

 

Stunlock Man still needs to be bopped on the head with a volleyball though.

If you could use something heavier and more dense than a volleyball (or his head), that would be nice.

[Code_Grey]

If you get knocked on your butt enough that you need to use a recovery mod, you're just not doing it right.

 

I know there are some people that are just not familiar with fast paced games, but how long does it honestly take to recognize a telegraphed attack that knocks you over? Even Rhino can leap like Max Payne.

 

If you are in a situation where Handspring would come in handy, say..surrounded by Moa. Why don't you just hit your handy-dandy 4 key and nuke them? If you have NO energy to do so, that makes Handspring so situational it's useless because how often are you surrounded by knockdown enemies with no energy or other means of escape?

 

So yes, it -should- be an innate ability in all Tenno. If only because the people who need it are just so helpless they need the mod slot for something else to keep them alive.

 

Disclaimer, I didn't read pages 2 and 3. Sue me, I'm too relaxed to read.

 

*EDIT*

I just realised there are like ten pages. That's how little I looked through the forum, just wanted to put my two rusty cents in.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Code_Grey

[Spriggs]

I agree, Handspring should not be a mod. In fact, I would go so far as to say most of the mods introduced in Update 8 shouldn't be mods at all. Since the introduction of the research facilities in the clan dojos, why not instead make these "mods" researchable improvements to a frame's base stats, with the same cap as the mod.

 

No one in their right mind is going to slot Cryo shield reduction or Wallrun Stamina usage reduction over a lot of the other more viable mods. This would give players the ability to improve their warframe, such as Handspring, without having to waste a valuable Mod slot. All it would cost is credits, resources, and possibly Forma.

[Saint_Tan]

Though I’m not thrilled about how rare the Hand Spring mod is, I totally disagree with the OP.

 

At its core, this mod is no different from any other speed increase mod.  No one seems to have a problem with mods that +% to speed for:  running, ammo rate of fire, or melee attacks.

 

Had this mod simply put “+50% to recovery speed” I doubt there would be such an issue.  But now suddenly everyone is up in arms about something they feel should just be a ‘given’.  Where does that stop?  Should all my guns just fire more rapidly from the get-go without mods?  And should my run ability start maxed out as well?

 

Just a thought from the other side of the coin.

[Shadowcrusnik]

Simple solution to this?

 

BRING BACK THE SKILL TREE!

[Spriggs]

Simple solution to this?

 

BRING BACK THE SKILL TREE!

Mod page for major mods like Improved Shields, Health, Max Power and such, with a skill tree providing supplementary things, like increased sprint speed, faster stamina recharge, stun and knock down reduction, and reduced effects of Cryo stages.

[Reaver_X]

Though I’m not thrilled about how rare the Hand Spring mod is, I totally disagree with the OP.

 

At its core, this mod is no different from any other speed increase mod.  No one seems to have a problem with mods that +% to speed for:  running, ammo rate of fire, or melee attacks.

 

Had this mod simply put “+50% to recovery speed” I doubt there would be such an issue.  But now suddenly everyone is up in arms about something they feel should just be a ‘given’.  Where does that stop?  Should all my guns just fire more rapidly from the get-go without mods?  And should my run ability start maxed out as well?

 

Just a thought from the other side of the coin.

 

no, just....no

 

 

u shouldnt require a mod to do some basic stuff like getting up off the ground faster.

[BoompigXD]

Cool can they convert jump, walk, sprint, and shoot to a mod?

Wonder when they will do that........

[Gestalt]

If you get knocked on your butt enough that you need to use a recovery mod, you're just not doing it right.

 

I know there are some people that are just not familiar with fast paced games, but how long does it honestly take to recognize a telegraphed attack that knocks you over? Even Rhino can leap like Max Payne.

 

If you are in a situation where Handspring would come in handy, say..surrounded by Moa. Why don't you just hit your handy-dandy 4 key and nuke them? If you have NO energy to do so, that makes Handspring so situational it's useless because how often are you surrounded by knockdown enemies with no energy or other means of escape?

 

So yes, it -should- be an innate ability in all Tenno. If only because the people who need it are just so helpless they need the mod slot for something else to keep them alive.

 

Disclaimer, I didn't read pages 2 and 3. Sue me, I'm too relaxed to read.

 

*EDIT*

I just realised there are like ten pages. That's how little I looked through the forum, just wanted to put my two rusty cents in.

Well, saying the solution to potential incoming stun/knockdown chains is to hit 4 is pretty showing as to how the system has room for improvement. Surely, it is more engaging and takes more manual dexterity to execute a techroll/knockdown recovery than to just press 4 all the time.

Also, Warframe has some serious input lag from what I can tell, and this affects movements like jump the most, making fast-paced dodging less than optimal.

I've spent more time in Quake 2/3, UT (and its children) and CS than in this game to know what fast-paced shooter feels like (ok, maybe CS was too slow), and Warframe can use a bit of smoothing in terms of movement responsiveness to make it a truly fast-paced game.

 

Oh I rage a hell of a lot. Just that game design is something I'm pretty familiar with (from a tabletop perspective, though), as well as economics, so on the things most people complain about I have the knowledge to post "this is bad and should be changed" and articulate why I feel that way/why others feel that way instead of just raging.

 

Stunlock Man still needs to be bopped on the head with a volleyball though.

I thought you were always pretty level-headed XD

[[DE]Rebecca]

This is a wonderful thread that has virtually unanimous community support, even after 10 pages. This feedback will be emphasized with the Devs.