SIDESTRE4M Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your points are invalidated or anything like that - for the most part it really doesn't strike dragon into your head on first look - but we are talking about mythical creatures that as far as science is concerned probably never existed in the first place, so if we start harping on "sea dragon" versus "sea serpent" then we are really digging into semantics. I'm not a religious person, so some of this may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I've heard numerous times within the holy books things refered to as Dragons that don't fit our standard idealized version of dragons. Heck, a lot of modern "dragons" are actually more akin to Wyverns, and that's a good bit of arguging that can happen right there. So my main point was the fact that there are so many different things that are labelled as Dragons in various different cultures and faiths that it's a lot broader than "this is what it looks like in Skyrim" (which could be argued is technically a wyvern by some). Luck dragons and all that. The reason I included the Komodo Dragon in my comparisonal set is only partially because of it's name - which if we want real world living creatures we can all go out and see, we don't have much else to really go off of besides it's name do we? - is because it's a lizard that stands up on it's hind legs, which gives it that quasi-anteater feel to it's mass. Is it a perfect line up? Of course not. If they just copy-pasted something it would feel really out of place in Warframe. Tidbit: DnD players will be familiar with most dragons having a polymorph self ability. Although we can say that the big scaly (or gemy) form may be it's "true form", I can't forget about that time that cat I've noticed on a critical fail of a spot check ended up turning into a dragon and saving my bacon. It was much preferably to the horned Black Dragon that hit me so hard I blew out of a 8-th story tower wall that was magically reinforced (I did not survive that. Thank heaven's for revive rods). That being said, I'd be more impressed by the moves being dragon related than the aesthetics - and on the chromatics effecting powers alone is enough to already have me excited for it (if not slightly annoyed over the color vs utility route). Another classic with a bit of a snout/whisker approach, cause i feel everytime I post I should add more dragon pictures. You know what? I think you are the only sane one here. (Me excluded as well.) Edited March 10, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboDoge Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 You know what? I think you are the only sane one here. (Me excluded either.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Lorewalker1022 Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 LOLOL...I'm not mad at how this thing looks from the previews, because I believe in reserving final judgment until the actual thing is released. And then I will try it for not only how it looks but it's functionality. But let me just say this based on what I have seen. This thing doesn't look like a dragon. it doesn't look like a European dragon and I just went to a Chinese New Years celebration about a month ago with some of my friends and I can tell you it doesn't look like any dragons they had up in that piece. And assuming that there are cultural similarities between the way dragons are drawn in Eastern cultures I'd say it also doesn't look like any Japanese, or Korean dragons I've seen either, etc, etc.Somebody on here mentioned multiple times that it resembles a seahorse and I have to say I concur. Somebody on another forum I believe mentioned it looks like an ant-eater and I have a tendency to agree with that too. So I'm not sure where the dragon feature (in terms of a first look) is coming from but I like many, don't see it (be it Western, Eastern, Northern, Southern, wherever you find dragons in the global book of mythologies).However the most important thing when it comes down to it, is functionality, and if this frame has great utility you bet I will have to pick it up regardless of how seahorsey or ant-eaterish it appears. Substance over style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbanGado Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) You know what? I think you are the only sane one here. (Me excluded as well.) If I'm sane, the world is in some pretty poor shape :P I'm not worth of the Gigantor baby-carry Grey Knight DreadKnight? That's a shame. Do love me some demon-thumping terminator-packed dreadnought supported Grey's though. Just a shame my dice rolling skills usually end up with all of mine being brutally murdered by the most useless of units :( Edited March 10, 2015 by KorbanGado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WetAedeagus Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 This is what the community expected: This is what they saw at reveal: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Akuma_Asura_ Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIDESTRE4M Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 And I just saw a dragon with a narrow mouth. Huehuehue we didn't get that stereotypical dragon they are using everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your points are invalidated or anything like that - for the most part it really doesn't strike dragon into your head on first look - but we are talking about mythical creatures that as far as science is concerned probably never existed in the first place, so if we start harping on "sea dragon" versus "sea serpent" then we are really digging into semantics. I'm not a religious person, so some of this may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I've heard numerous times within the holy books things refered to as Dragons that don't fit our standard idealized version of dragons. Heck, a lot of modern "dragons" are actually more akin to Wyverns, and that's a good bit of arguging that can happen right there. So my main point was the fact that there are so many different things that are labelled as Dragons in various different cultures and faiths that it's a lot broader than "this is what it looks like in Skyrim" (which could be argued is technically a wyvern by some). Luck dragons and all that. The reason I included the Komodo Dragon in my comparisonal set is only partially because of it's name - which if we want real world living creatures we can all go out and see, we don't have much else to really go off of besides it's name do we? - is because it's a lizard that stands up on it's hind legs, which gives it that quasi-anteater feel to it's mass. Is it a perfect line up? Of course not. If they just copy-pasted something it would feel really out of place in Warframe. I appreciate what you're saying but if I may add.....The fact that these didn't really exist is doesn't take away from the ability to recognize their traits. It is not an issue of semantics or harping. It's about respecting cultures, beliefs and being real about when they are accurately represented. There are certainly a ton of different depictions of dragons across many cultures. With that initial variety added onto an artists personal interpretation there are all kinds of ways to go. Still when an artist decides to go off the beaten path and do something that doesn't really match up with any of the previous depictions it should be simple enough to just acknowledge that. As I put it in another thread- The pro-chroma helm people need to stop pretending it looks like any existing mythological dragon. It doesn't. The anti-Chroma helm people need to stop pretending that DE needs to change their design away from something unique. They don't. DE did something unique with the helm there. Now they deserve whatever credit or condemnation goes along with that. Tidbit: DnD players will be familiar with most dragons having a polymorph self ability. Although we can say that the big scaly (or gemy) form may be it's "true form", I can't forget about that time that cat I've noticed on a critical fail of a spot check ended up turning into a dragon and saving my bacon. It was much preferably to the horned Black Dragon that hit me so hard I blew out of a 8-th story tower wall that was magically reinforced (I did not survive that. Thank heaven's for revive rods). That being said, I'd be more impressed by the moves being dragon related than the aesthetics - and on the chromatics effecting powers alone is enough to already have me excited for it (if not slightly annoyed over the color vs utility route). Ah yes. So many fun stories from playing D&D for all of us who took the time. I'm still hopeful about Chroma's power set. Another classic with a bit of a snout/whisker approach, cause i feel everytime I post I should add more dragon pictures. I think the snout and whisker approach is more than fine. Chroma's hem doesn't follow that though. Chroma's snout is tubular, ends with horn like lips and what some try to say are whiskers are like hard bars angled forward. It's just an issue of how much Chroma doesn't quote fit a dragon look....its that Chroma's face shape almost exactly fits the seahorse look. Since mythical dragons aren't real, DE could come up with everything they like. Technically true but then EVERY mythological creature/theme falls under that same heading. yet if there is no consistency to the design of things under the same label doesn't the purpose of a visual theme fall away? The question is simply does it (based on the general shape) look more like a dragon or more like a sea horse. Well, it looks more like a sea horse for many different reasons. THIS. This is the point right here. Edited March 10, 2015 by Ronyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 "Alt helm better be awesome" TRUTH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIDESTRE4M Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Technically true but then EVERY mythological creature/theme falls under that same heading. yet if there is no consistency to the design of things under the same label doesn't the purpose of a visual theme fall away? We got a ton of dragons in our culture, in our media. And everytime a dragon appears, it was interpreted by its artist. I see enough similarities to think of Chroma as a dragon. Just because a part of the community is brainwashed to think of dragons like in Skyrim or Hobbit or whatever is not a reason to despise DE for doing something unique. Some people will never shut up until Warframe looks like Halo and plays itself like Call of Duty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbanGado Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) I think the snout and whisker approach is more than fine. Chroma's hem doesn't follow that though. Chroma's snout is tubular, ends with horn like lips and what some try to say are whiskers are like hard bars angled forward. It's just an issue of how much Chroma doesn't quote fit a dragon look....its that Chroma's face shape almost exactly fits the seahorse look. I'll certainly give the seahorse thing, as it's definatly something that's readily comparible. To help elaborate a little bit on the snout and whiskers thing (if you really want a better understanding of what I'm thinking, i can try doing some photo manip to help), if you look at that image of the DnD Red Dragon, i akin the horn on the top of it's nose to the "horn" on the end of D-frame's snout. Likewise, the little seahorse-fin-flair to the back of the head strike me as a little reminiscent of things such as the Red or Greens as well. The wisker thing was always more the metallics IIRC (or stereotypical DBZ long-dragons), so when in my mind I see the dragon qualities, I'm looking at if from a side perspective. Granted, again, at first glance it really doesn't make one think dragon, but the main thing I think of when thinking of dragons is breath weapons - which it does have - ginormous scale, a swords and sorcery. Of course, then the stereotypical dragon image comes in my head as well, but dragons are just rad in general, so the only time I really tried to get into a dragon-olgy debate was when trying to classify what was a dragon and what was a Wyvern - and then stuff like Dragon Age came out with their males without frontal legs and females with and wyverns being feathery instead, and I just gave up and enjoyed it for the fantasy fun it was. Just because a part of the community is brainwashed to think of dragons like in Skyrim or Hobbit or whatever is not a reason to despise DE for doing something unique. The one you are referancing doesn't really dispise it I don't think. S/He's kind of the middle ground moderator who (really) is pretty much doing the same thing as me, except slightly more of the "it's not really appearance wise instilling the instant image of dragon" (to which s/he is pretty right). Edited March 10, 2015 by KorbanGado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIDESTRE4M Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I quoted him, but I was talking about a part of the community in that part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbanGado Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I quoted him, but I was talking about a part of the community in that part. Ah, Gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 We got a ton of dragons in our culture, in our media. And everytime a dragon appears, it was interpreted by its artist. That is not in debate. The issue is that there are well treaded paths that will fall into expectations and then there is the stuff that is out there. I see enough similarities to think of Chroma as a dragon. With the wide view of Chroma I can follow that, when it comes to the helmet in particular I don't believe so. At best it is a dragon with a seahorse head. Just because a part of the community is brainwashed to think of dragons like in Skyrim or Hobbit or whatever is not a reason to despise DE for doing something unique. "brainwashed" and "despise" are extremes. There are likely very few people who could fairly be described as brainwashed, and very few who could be categorized as despising DE. More commonly at's a matter of people being disappointed with a certain interpretation that departs more than they would like it to. Like I said, when an artist does something unique they are now going to get the credit or condemnation goes along with it. I'll certainly give the seahorse thing, as it's definatly something that's readily comparible. To help elaborate a little bit on the snout and whiskers thing (if you really want a better understanding of what I'm thinking, i can try doing some photo manip to help), if you look at that image of the DnD Red Dragon, i akin the horn on the top of it's nose to the "horn" on the end of D-frame's snout. Likewise, the little seahorse-fin-flair to the back of the head strike me as a little reminiscent of things such as the Red or Greens as well. The wisker thing was always more the metallics IIRC (or stereotypical DBZ long-dragons), so when in my mind I see the dragon qualities, I'm looking at if from a side perspective. Granted, again, at first glance it really doesn't make one think dragon, but the main thing I think of when thinking of dragons is breath weapons - which it does have - ginormous scale, a swords and sorcery. Of course, then the stereotypical dragon image comes in my head as well, but dragons are just rad in general, so the only time I really tried to get into a dragon-olgy debate was when trying to classify what was a dragon and what was a Wyvern - and then stuff like Dragon Age came out with their males without frontal legs and females with and wyverns being feathery instead, and I just gave up and enjoyed it for the fantasy fun it was. I get where you're coming from. Not to make it too simple but at the end of the day... IMO if it looks this much like a sea horse it is a bit too far from a dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monybags33 Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Chroma's design is rather very rebellious. I wont blame Chromas design the least bit after hearing so many people scream "No typical dragon frame" for the longest time, not hes nothing like a dragon if not very "abstract" and yet people are in a uproar. I say haters will be the most commonly found people on the forms before likers...likers wait in patience for the new frame while haters just go on about how its not what they wanted. Damed if you do damed if you dont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIDESTRE4M Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 That is not in debate. The issue is that there are well treaded paths that will fall into expectations and then there is the stuff that is out there. With the wide view of Chroma I can follow that, when it comes to the helmet in particular I don't believe so. At best it is a dragon with a seahorse head. "brainwashed" and "despise" are extremes. There are likely very few people who could fairly be described as brainwashed, and very few who could be categorized as despising DE. More commonly at's a matter of people being disappointed with a certain interpretation that departs more than they would like it to. Like I said, when an artist does something unique they are now going to get the credit or condemnation goes along with it. A bit of exaggeration on my side... The core is that streamlined designs sell the best. Remember Brakk? Remember how many people cried about it's ugliness and rather wanted to have that less detailed and less animated brick called Detron? I don't trust people on things like that anymore. I admit, I expected another design as well, but oh my god are people having a jam about hating on Chroma because they don't get their Smaugframe. That's the sad part of the story. The people won't give the artist any freedom. I bet he would have made everyone happy if he just had that helmet with an opened Jaw and some sort of a face (as far as Tenno have that) and a gundam like mech with dragon features which you get in every anime, but do we really want that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OniDax Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 We got a ton of dragons in our culture, in our media. And everytime a dragon appears, it was interpreted by its artist. I see enough similarities to think of Chroma as a dragon. Just because a part of the community is brainwashed to think of dragons like in Skyrim or Hobbit or whatever is not a reason to despise DE for doing something unique. Some people will never shut up until Warframe looks like Halo and plays itself like Call of Duty. Brainwashed? Halo? Call of Duty? What are you on about? Whatever it is, stop smoking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIDESTRE4M Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) Brainwashed? Halo? Call of Duty? What are you on about? Whatever it is, stop smoking it. A bit of exaggeration on my side... I even explained it in the very last post before yours. Nevermind. Edited March 10, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapClown Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 This is a dragon This is a Dragon This is a seahorse This this is a seahorse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerHappyWhiteGuy Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I was hopeing for this when they said "dragon frame". https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/37089-a-warframe-concept-the-dragon-20-%E2%80%94-final-update-2092015/ I also wanted the wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinReplica Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 The funny part about all of this is when he's released tons of Chroma are gonna be running around. And eventually, a lot of people are gonna admit that he grew on them. End of the day it's a game, and when you have a new toy to play with (no matter how unpleasing it may be to the eyes) you're gonna try it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otaiken Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) A bit of exaggeration on my side... The core is that streamlined designs sell the best. Remember Brakk? Remember how many people cried about it's ugliness and rather wanted to have that less detailed and less animated brick called Detron? I don't trust people on things like that anymore. I admit, I expected another design as well, but oh my god are people having a jam about hating on Chroma because they don't get their Smaugframe. That's the sad part of the story. The people won't give the artist any freedom. I bet he would have made everyone happy if he just had that helmet with an opened Jaw and some sort of a face (as far as Tenno have that) and a gundam like mech with dragon features which you get in every anime, but do we really want that? Buddy... a middle ground? Are we entertaining that possibility? I mean the place between cliche and stretching the theme to the brink of bursting. Don't tell me it cannot be done. Also, if I despise anything it's this attitude that everything has to be new and original even if it looks ridiculous... there's no pride in that, you're still catering to someone, it's just the minority this time. And let me tell you something... the wisdom that came with age. Sometimes... the majority is a majority... get this... for a reason! Really! Majority of people frowns on killing people and stealing stuff. Wouldn't call that a bad thing though. Aaaand don't tell me this is a hyperbole... it is, but you did the same thing multiple times so we're even. Originality for originality's sake. Man, we just need a gimmick we need something different... and you end up with something that is indeed different but actually worse. I grew really warry of this thinking... I guess that's why old people turn conservative? But I digress. Lastly, I'm not saying that this is the case with the design. I'm not saying that the designer indeed purposefully (if anything maybe accidentally) did that. Maybe they were just trying to incorporate too many themes into one thing or maybe there's a completely different reason and they very well might stand by their design (good for them). And I still appreaciate their work even if I don't see their particular vision. But it's people defending the design with... "Well, at least it's unique (used often as euphemistic insult btw). You lot just want a cliche, this is much better." Now this isn't a counterargument. This is circle-jerk. "You can't possibly understand." Wehn I say Chroma is ugly to me(I don't like it)... that is at least honest. When you say you like it. It's honest. When you say you like it because it's unique. That's still honest. BUT when you say that others are wrong for disliking it for being unique... or that unique is always better than cliche... that is not honest and the argument stops being about the design and starts being about inflating your ego. So... you're not wrong for liking it. When you point out that this and that is a dragon feature... I can debate you on that to some extent (this is always gonna be subjective in the end). But I'm not attacking your right to like it. Also, I do reserve the right to mock the design with pictures and gifs and comparisons. Mocking the d esign doesn't mean I mock the people liking it, I do it cause it's funny. You can mock the product without mocking the fanbase... though many people fail to understand that... hence the fanboi is born. So yeah... I don't like the design. Do you like the design? Good for you! No argument there. Now... when we discuss the dragon-like features. I can kinda debate you on that... can't I? I mean... you like it, I get it. But... really? Whiskers? That? Common... (jk) Edited March 10, 2015 by LocoWithGun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerberus888 Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 This is a dragon This is a Dragon This is a seahorse This this is a seahorse Nope. It is a sea dragon which is in the same family as sea horses and pipe fish. But ultimately different from both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rontul Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Dont really like it but I'll give him a closer look and check his alt helmet... might grow on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Jack.Of.Blades- Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Nope. It is a sea dragon which is in the same family as sea horses and pipe fish. But ultimately different from both. sea dragon sea horse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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