Pvp: Oneshots Don't Belong Competitive Pvp

[Intalus]

Its a matter of generic Oneshots, not headshots.

The thing is that there isn't that much of a negative consequence for dying in CTC unless you're the flag carrier.  You respawn in a relatively short amount of time and the maps are so small that you can pretty much get where you need to in 10 seconds or less if you're proficient at the game's movement system.  The only thing you really lose is your energy, and it's still possible to be competitive without any abilities... just be good at aiming and hitting fast moving targets.  

Edited March 22, 2015 by Intalus

[Burnthesteak87]

The thing is that there isn't that much of a negative consequence for dying in CTC unless you're the flag carrier.  You respawn in a relatively short amount of time and the maps are so small that you can pretty much get where you need to in 10 seconds or less if you're proficient at the game's movement system.  The only thing you really lose is your energy, and it's still possible to be competitive without any abilities... just be good at aiming and hitting fast moving targets.  

When you die, you'll stay dead for some time. Meanwhile your team plays 3v4.

By another point of view it's not funy at all, the fight should involve action and reaction, not a flat boom, oneshot, respawn, boom, oneshot, respawn, etc.

It's not possible being competitive without abilities and energy, when the opponent team controls energy and spam #4 to wipe clear your teammates.

As I wrote on the first post, a solid PVP should offer everyone the chance to fight back or to react. Elseway it will be just a massacre to who would oneshot first.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Intalus]

When you die, you'll stay dead for some time. Meanwhile your team plays 3v4.

By another point of view it's not funy at all, the fight should involve action and reaction, not a flat boom, oneshot, respawn, boom, oneshot, respawn, etc.

It's not possible being competitive without abilities and energy, when the opponent team controls energy and spam #4 to wipe clear your teammates.

As I wrote on the first post, a solid PVP should offer everyone the chance to fight back or to react. Elseway it will be just a massacre to who would oneshot first.

I don't see the problem if it's 3v4 because you died as a result of your own actions.  

 

If you have good movement you won't get oneshot on a regular basis.  Like I said before, you're dying as a result of your own actions (or rather, lack of action taken against someone with a precision pin-point weapon).

 

It's certainly possible to be competitive without having energy.  Just because you haven't found a way to competitive without energy does not mean the game should be limited/dumbed down.  If you have good movement, you should be able to dodge most warframe's abilities.  If you see someone using a specific warframe, you need to anticipate the possible abilities that they're going to be using.   If you're not attempting to predict what your opponent is doing, then you are entirely at fault for your losses.

 

As for warframe abilities... that's an entirely different problem.  The abilities themselves definitely need to be addressed.  There is no reason for why they are dealing that much damage when they have that much range AND effectively auto-aim for the player.  

 

Obviously the time-to-kill shouldn't be too low, but it's there are exceptions for high-risk/high-reward playstyles like getting headshots with bows...  Bows do have fairly limited ammo.  You will be out of ammo relatively quick unless and unless you're actively running around picking up ammo whenever it comes off cooldown.  If someone else is hogging all the ammo reserves then you're probably going to have to switch to your secondary. If you attempt to zoom in with the bow, your movement is coming to a complete halt; chances are you're going to die in short amount of time if you continue to stay zoomed in for more than a few seconds.    

Edited March 22, 2015 by Intalus

[Burnthesteak87]

It's not dying on the basis of my actions, it's dying on the basis of a broken and bad thought mechanic.
Having a good movement doesn't mean you'll always be alive and avoid oneshots most of the time.
As I wrote on the first post, it's like having about 20% possibilities vs 80% opponent's with Oneshot ready. With Oneshots pending on your head means the smaller error is death. And not your opponent's error, because when people will become skilled, they won't miss their chance the most of the times.

You claim that energy isn't necessary to win, this is clearly an unexperienced statement, I've played more than 8 hours this PVP (the game isn't still that rich and deep) and... energy for ults is necessary. Energy control is the actual way to play.
I'm not asking to dumb down the game. The total opposite, the Oneshot mechanic is dumbing down it. Because when you'll understand that the only way to fight back who Oneshots you is to do the same, the metagame will lock around it.

Also regarding the bow, I don't think those fingers are enough to stop the leak on the dam.

I'm not interested into attack and defense cheap talks, don't answer for pride, answer with logic please.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Amazerath]

I played several PvP shooters during the 90's and because of that I've grown accustomed to being killed/killing in a single hit. That's just the way things worked back then. Thunderbolt on water, snipers, Bio-rifle charged shot, ASMD rifle combo... You could get killed by all of those in a single hit and it happened very often.

 

However, there's a very important difference between 90's PvP and Warframe PvP. Warframe PvP only has three types of pickups: health, energy and ammo. The older shooters had more things to offer, such as "armor" or "extra health". So you could prevent people from one shooting you by grabbing some armor, additional health, or even a temporary invincibility item. Granted, you still had to stay alive long enough to find one of those pickups, but that was part of the dynamic. Also, the weapons were pickups back then so you had to "earn the right" to one shot people by competing for those weapons.

 

With all that said, to me this discussion is not actually about one shot being "right" or "wrong". It is about whether or not it has a place in Warframe PvP. And that depends a lot on what the PvP dev team is aiming for. If they decide to add different types of pickups then that would probably bring us closer to oldschool PvP. But if that is not what the team is aiming for, then I agree with Burnthesteak. We should not have one shots in PvP if you're not going to be offered any means to protect yourself against that kind of damage.

[Intalus]

It's not dying on the basis of my actions, it's dying on the basis of a broken and bad thought mechanic.

Having a good movement doesn't mean you'll always be alive and avoid oneshots most of the time.

As I wrote on the first post, it's like having about 20% possibilities vs 80% opponent's with Oneshot ready. With Oneshots pending on your head means the smaller error is death. And not your opponent's error, because when people will become skilled, they won't miss their chance the most of the times.

You claim that energy isn't necessary to win, this is clearly an unexperienced statement, I've played more than 8 hours this PVP (the game isn't still that rich and deep) and... energy for ults is necessary. Energy control is the actual way to play.

I'm not asking to dumb down the game. The total opposite, the Oneshot mechanic is dumbing down it. Because when you'll understand that the only way to fight back who Oneshots you is to do the same, the metagame will lock around it.

Also regarding the bow, I don't think those fingers are enough to stop the leak on the dam.

I'm not interested into attack and defense cheap talks, don't answer for pride, answer with logic please.

You're dying because someone managed to hit your Warframe's head with a difficult to use weapon.  How is that a broken and bad thought out mechanic?  It's the player's lack of situational awareness which results in death in that scenario.  As a competitive player, you should know the map's layout like the back of your hand, and as a result you should be able to have a general idea where all your opponents are at.  It ultimately comes down to the player's fault because there are many precautions they can be taking to prevent getting one shot.  

 

Having good movement is your best defense against difficult to land weapons... In addition to being able to pull off all of the parcour abilities on a whim, you need to be unpredictable.  If you're moving predictably, then yeah, chances are you're going to get hit because it's not throwing off the player who's aiming.  

 

You could have played PvP for the last 20 or so hours, but that doesn't make a difference if you don't possess critical thinking skills.  I've had no issue winning most of my matches by simply ignoring energy restores; As it stands right now, I can grab the opponent's flag and get it back to my base in under 10 seconds.  CTC isn't designed entirely around kills - it's an objective based gametype.  

 

So you're saying that someone who is putting in the effort to predict a player's crazy movement results in the game becoming dumbed down?  That doesn't make any sense.  I've already stated before that the damage of the fast charging bows should be tuned down a bit so that it doesn't one shot someone who has 100% effective HP.  It should deal ~90% of their effective HP so that they can be finished off quickly, or if they're already taken some damage, they will die instantaneously.  

Edited March 22, 2015 by Intalus

[Burnthesteak87]

You're dying because someone managed to hit your Warframe's head with a difficult to use weapon.  How is that a broken and bad thought out mechanic?  It's the player's lack of situational awareness which results in death in that scenario.  As a competitive player, you should know the map's layout like the back of your hand, and as a result you should be able to have a general idea where all your opponents are at.  It ultimately comes down to the player's fault because there are many precautions they can be taking to prevent getting one shot.  

 

Having good movement is your best defense against difficult to land weapons... In addition to being able to pull off all of the parcour abilities on a whim, you need to be unpredictable.  If you're moving predictably, then yeah, chances are you're going to get hit because it's not throwing off the player who's aiming.  

 

You could have played PvP for the last 20 or so hours, but that doesn't make a difference if you don't possess critical thinking skills.  I've had no issue winning most of my matches by simply ignoring energy restores; As it stands right now, I can grab the opponent's flag and get it back to my base in under 10 seconds.  CTC isn't designed entirely around kills - it's an objective based gametype.  

 

First of all I've replied more times that I'm not talking about Headshots but generic Oneshots. Body-hits oneshotting.

I'm fine if a skilled player is able to headshot me. I'm not ok if a skilled to unskilled player is abusing a bow to oneshot me every time I'm in its bow range.

The same with skills.

Then I thank you again, and again and again. I finally understood that "a moving target is better than a standing target". Sorry for the cheap irony, but you're pulling it out so many times, I'm becoming doubtful myself.. :P

What does make you think that your opponents were skilled players if even using energy they lost to a player not using energy?

Let's be honest, with the unskilled people running around even I could do such a thing.

The Rule here is: "What would a skillcapped player do with such option in this situation?"

 

 

So you're saying that someone who is putting in the effort to predict a player's crazy movement results in the game becoming dumbed down?  That doesn't make any sense.  I've already stated before that the damage of the fast charging bows should be tuned down a bit so that it doesn't one shot someone who has 100% effective HP.  It should deal ~90% of their effective HP so that they can be finished off quickly, or if they're already taken some damage, they will die instantaneously. 

You're clearly misunderstanding my point. The "dumbing down" is the consequence of abusing Oneshot to kill opponents which will surely become the metagame.

Experience will make the player just better at predicting target's movement, it's part of the learning curve in every shooter.

I even proposed in the second page to reduce Bow's damage and increase the arrows speed...

Edited March 22, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Burnthesteak87]

I played several PvP shooters during the 90's and because of that I've grown accustomed to being killed/killing in a single hit. That's just the way things worked back then. Thunderbolt on water, snipers, Bio-rifle charged shot, ASMD rifle combo... You could get killed by all of those in a single hit and it happened very often.

 

However, there's a very important difference between 90's PvP and Warframe PvP. Warframe PvP only has three types of pickups: health, energy and ammo. The older shooters had more things to offer, such as "armor" or "extra health". So you could prevent people from one shooting you by grabbing some armor, additional health, or even a temporary invincibility item. Granted, you still had to stay alive long enough to find one of those pickups, but that was part of the dynamic. Also, the weapons were pickups back then so you had to "earn the right" to one shot people by competing for those weapons.

 

With all that said, to me this discussion is not actually about one shot being "right" or "wrong". It is about whether or not it has a place in Warframe PvP. And that depends a lot on what the PvP dev team is aiming for. If they decide to add different types of pickups then that would probably bring us closer to oldschool PvP. But if that is not what the team is aiming for, then I agree with Burnthesteak. We should not have one shots in PvP if you're not going to be offered any means to protect yourself against that kind of damage.

That's an amazing idea from old school games. Really Nice.

[onemoonlight]

dont have a pvp bow, might get one, eventually, but not any time soon

 

i do think that weapons like bolt action rifles and bows while fully charged should be given that one shot body shot potential, just because dodging is so easy

 

dont ADS when someone is aiming a bow at you and you will be fine, and if you do like to ADS zealously, just bind your dodge key to something like alt and do sideflips/backflips/rolls while aiming at the bow user and use cover; maps are really linear and dont have much verticality to them, so if you cant spot a bow user and prepare, you just lack awareness

 

the charge also does make a sound, so if you're playing with headphones you get an advantage by hearing him prepare his shot, or just twitch-spam dodge if that happens and you dont know where it is coming from

 

you can also "shoot from cover" with a hitscan weapon - something a bow user cant do - and bows lose their charge when performing some of the movement

 

i do think however that non-charged damage should be kept in check

[Burnthesteak87]

I invite you to read other posts. Please.

It's not a "I pass by and drop my experience here" thread.
It's not a "I think this and I'm not explaining in a smart way why" thread.
That's not constructive.
If you take time writing so much, you'll have time to read the other posts too and keeping it in mind before writing whatever passes in your mind.
And whatever, nobody is going to consider your opinion if you're not going to justify it.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Blatantfool]

idk, its fine to distinguish what is strong, what is OP and what is weak. But kneejerk reactions are how things like Rhino get nerfed on day 1 when none of what he does is even viable in the way the game is currently being played.

 

Like it or not, the best melee weapon in the game is currently the Paris. Actual melee weapons need a range buff (allow the use of range mods and allow the use of polearms/bo etc). Being killed by coptering is completely avoidable and telegraphed where being killed by a gun/bow in a single shot is not. People really need to let the "meta" evolve and not kneejerk their reactions based off a small amount of their own play experience.

 

The reason there's a lot of melee weapon use is because non-bow gun weapons are so incredibly weak its almost completely not worth using, especially with the mobility we have.

 

At the moment, one shots are necessary to counter the strong mobility we are capable of using. Until mobility and picking up the cephalon are changed...OHKOs are absolutely necessary to progress the game. The ultimates give a small window to avoid and someone has to be lucky or in melee range to kill with bows. Imo automatic and semi-automatic weapons need a buff and the 6 second tracking mods need to also have a built in 30% pvp slow.

 

 I'm sorry I didn't happen to see your response sooner, I would have responded.

 

 While I see what you're trying to say, I simply can't agree.

 

 No. It's never appropriate for it to be so simple to kill someone as to spam an easy, quick firing projectile or simply bump into them with a sliding melee. 

 

 Quick movement be damned. If you want to crap on Coptering players you should be getting clever with Pull or Radial Blind. Maybe even Snowglobe.

 

 Standing in the right position you can use a Player's own muscle memory against them as they copter past you to grab the flag. I've outright watched people copter straight off the cliff behind the flag after being blinded.

 

 

 That aside, further answers to high mobility haven't been added to PvP yet. Ask yourself - how effective do you think coptering in and bumrushing a flag will be once Ember can drop Ring of Fire on it to blast apart your shields or Iron Skins and Fire Proc you? 

 

 How easily do you see it being to escape when Nekros' Soul Punch is a nearly instant, homing knockdown attack?

 

 Nova will even be able to MPrime, essentially creating a zone where if the enemy copters through they'll be rendered so slow that being airborn to Coptering or Airdash is actually a disadvantage enough to get them killed?

 

 One shot kills in our weapons aren't helping. They are a serious balance issue. More serious then the high movement speeds, as there is not nearly enough answers to them built straight into the game.

[Nxai]

After reading your post twice.

 

Since you've shared that, I will respectfully retract my statement. It's often hard to tell the exact intent behind a statement online especially with such a varied array of people. I will maintain that you are however disallowing any arguments. Yes, on paper any weapon being able to one shot somebody is a threat to balance but you can't call something unbalanced purely on it's numbers. You have to account for everything and that means taking into account that there isn't a computer behind that bow it's a person and people aren't flawlessly able to execute headshots at 40 meters with one hand. Further there are game mechanics that prevent you from taking that damage, such as blocking that must be accounted for, on top of, there are mods and augments which I'm sure only a small percentage of people are currently using that provide an array of options to even the playing field against not just that weapon but all weapons. Augments that let you switch weapons faster, augments that let abilities heal or restore you, things like that which are tactical options for counterplay ignoring perceived "skill" there are a lot of options to deal with incoming arrows.

 

Two of the available frames currently have defensive shield skills and rhino has iron skin which would at least increase the likely hood of living as well mag has shield polarize which gives overshields. All frames can block with melee. There are several dodge manuevers besides just the standard roll including various flips at various speeds in every direction. Air melee or coptering is already a strong tactic for evading computer enemy fire, why should it be any different for real people? The paris isn't even a guaranteed one shot, it's a very likely one shot so playing one of the tankier but somewhat slower frames is a passable idea. I personally took several arrows yesterday playing frost and they didn't one shot me immediately in most cases and the only time it did was a full charge shot. Right now there aren't a lot of options in PvP, so some things might seem disproportionately strong, but things won't become any easier to deal with if you don't use everything you have available. We can be months down the line with all the frames and all the weapons and if you aren't adapting to counter things you know as a player you can't handle head on than you won't win no matter what you are using, you as a player need to realize the gear you take should directly compensate for your weaknesses and play off of your strengths, which is part of the rationale for telling you my logic and playstyle.

 

I keep moving, I don't want to stop moving, so I take a melee, in this case the bo, which lets me move quickly back and forth, I take a weapon that hits hard but considerably quickly, in this case the strun because I know I can move to engagement distance easily, and I take a secondary to use at range or when flag carrying, which I don't have yet but have seen the dual cestra put out considerable damage and in my mind that is an ideal loadout to compliment my strengths and I'm playing frost who has a bit more armor and a bit more health even though his sprint is slower, I have defensives and AOE abilities that can turn the tide of an encounter and help me survive a situation I'm otherwise outplayed on. That's just one persons way to adapt to the situation, and everyone plays differently. If you can't outplay the other person and you can't create the circumstances of your victory than how can you expect to win against any weapon let alone just one?

[Aggh]

 I'm sorry I didn't happen to see your response sooner, I would have responded.

 

 While I see what you're trying to say, I simply can't agree.

 

 No. It's never appropriate for it to be so simple to kill someone as to spam an easy, quick firing projectile or simply bump into them with a sliding melee. 

 

 Quick movement be damned. If you want to crap on Coptering players you should be getting clever with Pull or Radial Blind. Maybe even Snowglobe.

 

 Standing in the right position you can use a Player's own muscle memory against them as they copter past you to grab the flag. I've outright watched people copter straight off the cliff behind the flag after being blinded.

 

 

 That aside, further answers to high mobility haven't been added to PvP yet. Ask yourself - how effective do you think coptering in and bumrushing a flag will be once Ember can drop Ring of Fire on it to blast apart your shields or Iron Skins and Fire Proc you? 

 

 How easily do you see it being to escape when Nekros' Soul Punch is a nearly instant, homing knockdown attack?

 

 Nova will even be able to MPrime, essentially creating a zone where if the enemy copters through they'll be rendered so slow that being airborn to Coptering or Airdash is actually a disadvantage enough to get them killed?

 

 One shot kills in our weapons aren't helping. They are a serious balance issue. More serious then the high movement speeds, as there is not nearly enough answers to them built straight into the game.

Realllly don't like the idea that abilities should be the answer to coptering. 

 

Bigger maps, better map parkour routes and a nerf to slide melee damage are a better option imo.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Aggh

[Burnthesteak87]

Realllly don't like the idea that abilities should be the answer to coptering. 

 

Bigger maps, better map parkour routes and a nerf to slide melee damage are a better option imo.

Imho Maps aren't to blame, they're pretty well designed. Bigger maps would result just in a longer and more isolated gameplay which would elseway promote zerging (if reaching the fight zone would be too much long, usually players rather going around in big numbers instead than risking being catched alone.. check GuildWars2's crap PVP -it's an example, I don't want to argue about that crap game-).

Big maps are good only for Deathmatch games.

If we want to talk about maps, DE could decide to place freezing grounds or more obstacles on the shorter ways to make the run more difficult.

This way you can keep your agility unnerfed, but you'll have to use it carefully. Simple Risk VS Reward.

Elseway if we want some balancement/nerf, coptering and all the "exagerated mobility" issues would be limited with a Stamina rework.

With a limit given by stamina, a player wouldn't sprint eternally, sooner or later he will become slow and easier to catch.

Exactly as it happens on every PVP games in which stamina is a relevant limit to movement and manouvers.

After Stamina would have been reworked it would be nice even to see around Stamina Pickups too.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[onemoonlight]

(...) Quick movement be damned. If you want to crap on Coptering players you should be getting clever with Pull or Radial Blind. Maybe even Snowglobe. (...)

 

coptering in pvp works the same way it does in pve - it completely ignores CC effects, mag's pull 'ministun' being one of them; spamming melee attacks also makes you ignore CC

 

good players will ignore blind, it's like "whatevs, ill just spam copters, rolls and aerials all over the place till it's gone, cant touch me"

 

snowglobe is a joke

 

only way i've found to actually intercept is either copter right behind then, and hope they're worse at coptering or have a worse, slower weapon for coptering, and melee them with that op slide OR throw in bullet attractor and hope your teammates capitalize, because when you're done casting it, a competent player is long gone

 

edit: like seriously, two well aimed slide jumps into an aerial cover HALF the distance on the corpus map, you can cap a flag with 4-5 jumps and a copter; orokin void map 3-4 well aimed jumps, someone good could probably do with 2 and a copter, same with the indoors facility map - one jump towards the top platform, one to two jumps on top of it and a copter sideways into your flag

 

 

tho, as you're saying, other frames getting into pvp might help, but those are energy-based counters, and, again, even if coptering will stop ignoring CC effects, there is this thing called dodge, which most certainly will ignore them - just like it does with ruks/eximus fire blast or grineer/moa shockwaves - so embers fire ring's worth as much as last years calendar

 

and having energy-based counters to non-energy mechanics is just straight up S#&$ design, theres only as much energy available at any given time for all 8 of the players, and you can just keep respawning and bumrushing

Edited March 22, 2015 by onemoonlight

[Bishop27]

Alright, I am going to break a personal code of lurking to post here...

 

Personally, I am of the opinion of Bow oneshots being perfectly okay. I emphasize "bow" because when snipers inevitably are introduced, they should probably be two-shotters... maybe barring the Vectis, maybe. 

 

So, why am I of this opinion? First off, counter play has been discussed here with relative frequency. In my opinion, counter play really starts the moment you identify an enemy weapon, not once you've taken an arrow to the face. You should be knowledgeable about what weapons are problematic for your load out and you should be aware of your surroundings. If you don't think you can win a fight against a bow then scoot out of there -- we have outrageous levels of mobility and we can, most of the time, pick and choose which engagements we want to fight in. I know that, being a Paris Prime user myself, I always try to slow someone with the stun-chaining-Kogake and run. I'll fight that particular individual when conditions are more suitable. It is just a basic assessment of who holds the most cards.

 

In short, it appears that most load outs have a response to them. You just might not have that load out at the time. And that seems perfectly reasonable to me, especially since we can more or less maneuver out of 90% of the sticky situations we are in. People just... don't for some reason. 

 

The above is why I think considering a nerf for the bow is a little bit silly, but if it were to be changed, here are the ways I would do it. One option that seems reasonable to me is the previously discussed stagger or stun after sustaining a charged shot. Although, it is kind of a moot point since it would end up being the same as a oneshot unless a teammate intervened whilst the victim was stunned, a sitting duck for the murderous second shot. Still, it is possible and it would definitely save some people. Another option that seems reasonable to be is a bleed effect that will kill you after sustaining a direct charged shot unless you reach a health orb. 

 

I am sure you've noticed a theme in that my alternate options are kind of semantics; really just glorified oneshots. The reason is that the bow, despite the number of times we've all been killed by it, is the weapon that suffers the most when you miss. In a one versus one scenario you realistically have about 2 chances to kill your opponent before he closes the gap and melees you to death -- and I am not even considering Warframes like Mag that can stagger you, Excalibur which can blind you, and Rhino/Frost that can slow you. All of those abilities either severely limit the number of shots you can take or, in the case of Excalibur, make it pretty much impossible to resist getting pummeled. As such, missing your oneshot kill can mean your own demise pretty quickly... to use the same vocabulary I have seen in the thread prior, it is high risk high reward. Also, I won't talk about it much beyond this, but whether or not one wants to accept it, skill is an empirical factor of PvP combat and can mitigate the risk of missing bow shots. Moreover, ping issues are an issue in practically every game ever... life is unfair, luckily people have the freedom to choose whether or not they want to play PvP; I disagree that it is DE's job to compensate for individual PC or connection deficits unless they find that the majority of players have these issues. That is another topic aside, though. 

 

Lastly, we also have to consider the overwhelming number of weapons and warframes that have not even been introduced to PvP yet. Not to mention the inevitable fixes and alterations that will come. Warframe was never designed to be a PvP game and given that, I am actually pretty impressed that PvP still manages to be more fairly competitive than many games that are solely PvP games. There is bound to be an innumerable amount of counters to the bow that are on their way to PvP in the coming months. I've been doing my best to refrain from overtly harsh reactions to anything in this PvP experience because whatever conclusion I come to will be a conclusion based off of a fraction of a fraction of the envisioned game mode. Furthermore, there is an inherent danger to excessive balancing and that danger is that every weapon becomes just as able to take on every other weapon in the game, effectively making everything the exact same. That prospect bores me to death. I would rather a game be unbalanced and exciting than perfectly fair and dull. Sure, it is possible to have the best of both worlds, but I would offer a counter proposal of buffing the other weapons slightly rather than nerfing the bow.

 

Long post short, I resist the removal of bow oneshots. In the event of their removal, I believe their fatal nature should just be translated into the form of a severe debuff (a DoT or moderate stun). There are plenty of ways to counter the bow, but sitting there alone and trying to burn your enemy down with a Braton isn't it. 

[Blatantfool]

Realllly don't like the idea that abilities should be the answer to coptering. 

 

Bigger maps, better map parkour routes and a nerf to slide melee damage are a better option imo.

 

 What the hell would you expect skills to be a good counter for? Besides, that isn't just an answer to coptering. It's a matter of mobility in general.

 

 

 It isn't even an idea either. It's the way things are. There is a large number of CC abilities in Warframe. Of COURSE those are a good answer for mobile gameplay.

 

 

coptering in pvp works the same way it does in pve - it completely ignores CC effects, mag's pull 'ministun' being one of them; spamming melee attacks also makes you ignore CC

 

good players will ignore blind, it's like "whatevs, ill just spam copters, rolls and aerials all over the place till it's gone, cant touch me"

 

snowglobe is a joke

 

only way i've found to actually intercept is either copter right behind then, and hope they're worse at coptering or have a worse, slower weapon for coptering, and melee them with that op slide OR throw in bullet attractor and hope your teammates capitalize, because when you're done casting it, a competent player is long gone

 

edit: like seriously, two well aimed slide jumps into an aerial cover HALF the distance on the corpus map, you can cap a flag with 4-5 jumps and a copter; orokin void map 3-4 well aimed jumps, someone good could probably do with 2 and a copter, same with the indoors facility map - one jump towards the top platform, one to two jumps on top of it and a copter sideways into your flag

 

 

tho, as you're saying, other frames getting into pvp might help, but those are energy-based counters, and, again, even if coptering will stop ignoring CC effects, there is this thing called dodge, which most certainly will ignore them - just like it does with ruks/eximus fire blast or grineer/moa shockwaves - so embers fire ring's worth as much as last years calendar

 

and having energy-based counters to non-energy mechanics is just straight up S#&$ design, theres only as much energy available at any given time for all 8 of the players, and you can just keep respawning and bumrushing

 

  If Coptering prevent's the pull effect on Mag's Pull then that is what needs changing. Simple as that. It may even be nerf enough in itself to prevent the trick from rendering you CC immune. 

 

 As for Blind, I'm sure this is a no-brainer but where you choose to blind someone is incredibly important. You want to blind them in a location where having to evasive maneuver without sight can probably kill them or get them snagged on terrain. It's not as viable while chasing as it is when used in ambush however.

 

 

 Again, I'll just kinda repeat myself on this.

 

 Coptering - along with all highly mobile gameplay tricks and strategies - can be balanced by simply making sure there are answers for them. In this case I believe the absolute best solution is for those answers to be skills. First order of business should absolutely be figuring out how to prevent coptering from protecting the player from various types of CC effects in PvP. Then we can play with Conclave in that state and see if that alone fixes it or if further changes are needed.

[Aggh]

 What the hell would you expect skills to be a good counter for? Besides, that isn't just an answer to coptering. It's a matter of mobility in general.

 

 

 It isn't even an idea either. It's the way things are. There is a large number of CC abilities in Warframe. Of COURSE those are a good answer for mobile gameplay.

 

 

 

  If Coptering prevent's the pull effect on Mag's Pull then that is what needs changing. Simple as that. It may even be nerf enough in itself to prevent the trick from rendering you CC immune. 

 

 As for Blind, I'm sure this is a no-brainer but where you choose to blind someone is incredibly important. You want to blind them in a location where having to evasive maneuver without sight can probably kill them or get them snagged on terrain. It's not as viable while chasing as it is when used in ambush however.

 

 

 Again, I'll just kinda repeat myself on this.

 

 Coptering - along with all highly mobile gameplay tricks and strategies - can be balanced by simply making sure there are answers for them. In this case I believe the absolute best solution is for those answers to be skills. First order of business should absolutely be figuring out how to prevent coptering from protecting the player from various types of CC effects in PvP. Then we can play with Conclave in that state and see if that alone fixes it or if further changes are needed.

No, it's the easy way out.  Single button press counters will just dumb things down.  Providing better options that take a bit more knowledge/skill to use and making sure that coptering and slide attacking isn't the most optimal way to play pvp will provide the best long term solution to the current situation.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Aggh

[Blatantfool]

No, it's the easy way out.  Single button press counters will just dumb things down.  Providing better options that take a bit more knowledge/skill to use and making sure that coptering and slide attacking isn't the most optimal way to play pvp will provide the best long term solution to the current situation.

 

 I'll try to explain myself better:

 

 Warframe is fast. Very fast. Even if one-shot kill weaponry WAS out of the picture individual fights would still be relatively short and we all already know that the time it takes to traverse to map is very low. All things ought to try to work properly while reflecting Warframes fast gameplay. Over complicating the process of handling another team's shenanigans and thereby running the risk of slowing combat could have an adverse effect on the gameplay. 

 

 So it follows that the ideal situation is for a player of adequate skill level to be able to act on his experience without much in the way of fuss. Traversing the map is fast, effortless even. The counter needs to be roughly the same. The exception being, of course, that it must not be SO easy as to completely annihilate the value of how fast the Tenno traverse the map.

 

 Skills are the natural fit.

 

 If you simply nerfed traversal into the ground you hurt Warframe's speedy gameplay - one of it's greatest strengths. 

 

 If you build the counter into guns by adding something like hitstun to heavy enough weapons you might end up completely destroying traversal and warping gameplay into a campier affair since seeing your opponent first to get the initial stun becomes incredibly important in winning trades.

 

 However skills:

 

 - Often include at least one CC element per each Warframe skillset. This means a large variety of possible counters.

 

 - Often only operate at peak effectiveness when used at the proper moment or in the proper situation. Any 'Fire and forget' tier counter will have a higher cost and thus take the enemy longer to set up.

 

 - Operate off 'Ammo' in the form of Energy economy, meaning they can't be easily spammed to such a degree as to stamp out the ability to play past them. As the opposing team you'll always have an option or two available to play past it.

 

 It's a fit. BOTH teams can take advantage of the rapid map traversal. BOTH teams will always have the skills that could be used to combat this rapid traversal. It all goes hand in hand.

 

 

 With all that said, understand this as well.

 

 I also seriously support the idea of including larger maps as soon as possible. It is my current opinion that the Conclave rotation should be expanded to work more like this:

 

 'Small Map (Ice Cliffs) - Medium Map - Small Map (Corpus Ship) - Large Map - Small Map (Void Gap) - Medium Map - Repeat'

 

 In order to open things up a bit and encourage changing approaches. We need maps that take longer to traverse.

[Aodan]

Imo, oneshots with bows should be achieved on headshots.

Mid-direct body or headshot.

But nicking a hit box, no

In most fps, headshots are universal, in regards to ttk. With rifles and Shottys 1-2 hits with a head shot should kill, 3-4 shots on direct body.

The ttk between bows vs others is not balanced even with the argument of skill based aiming

Edited March 23, 2015 by Aodan

[KyrosQF]

 I'm sorry I didn't happen to see your response sooner, I would have responded.

 

 While I see what you're trying to say, I simply can't agree.

 

 No. It's never appropriate for it to be so simple to kill someone as to spam an easy, quick firing projectile or simply bump into them with a sliding melee. 

 

 Quick movement be damned. If you want to crap on Coptering players you should be getting clever with Pull or Radial Blind. Maybe even Snowglobe.

 

 Standing in the right position you can use a Player's own muscle memory against them as they copter past you to grab the flag. I've outright watched people copter straight off the cliff behind the flag after being blinded.

 

 

 That aside, further answers to high mobility haven't been added to PvP yet. Ask yourself - how effective do you think coptering in and bumrushing a flag will be once Ember can drop Ring of Fire on it to blast apart your shields or Iron Skins and Fire Proc you? 

 

 How easily do you see it being to escape when Nekros' Soul Punch is a nearly instant, homing knockdown attack?

 

 Nova will even be able to MPrime, essentially creating a zone where if the enemy copters through they'll be rendered so slow that being airborn to Coptering or Airdash is actually a disadvantage enough to get them killed?

 

 One shot kills in our weapons aren't helping. They are a serious balance issue. More serious then the high movement speeds, as there is not nearly enough answers to them built straight into the game.

 

 If you knock someone down and kill them or CC/Kill someone...that's the same as one shotting them. As soon as someone is hit by it, they are dead and there's nothing they can do. So really your argument against one shots is allowing solo executable wombo combos which is the same thing.

 

I'm not against wombo combos as they serve the same purpose as one shots. They exist to counter things. The question to ask is "how easy is this one shot/wombo to do to someone"? Difficult or Situational? Then its fine. Super easy to use in every situation? There's a problem. That's where you get balance.

 

Addressing the issues of melee, while improving melee AND giving counterplay to fast firing weapons

 

Melee being used a lot isn't a result of melee damage being vastly overpowered, its because most guns are just vastly underpowered. In order to balance both there should be three adjustments (If only 1 or 2 happen, there'd be new imbalances)...

 

1. Primary and Secondary weapons need to have their uncommon conclave mod adjusted. Currently they add a 6 second tracking to tenno hit with the weapon, it should also apply a 30-50% movement speed debuff for the duration. (Refreshable with more hits). This is something that faster firing weapons benefit more from than something like a bow. This is a good thing given that faster firing weapons deal less damage. Also, you are creating a team wombo if someone shoots a cephalon carrier with a braton allowing the paris user to hit the target easier.

 

2. Coptering and Directional melee speed need to be affected by any ability, proc or effect that reduces movement speed of your warframe. At the moment if I get hit by Frost's 1 or 2 or Rhino's 4, I walk SOOOO SLOW but can copter at regular speed. Counterplay loses out here as anti-mobility moves are not hindering mobility. This must change. If this change is implemented, PvE does not suffer and PvP will have counterplay to a mobile opponent.

 

3. Right now there are no mods you can use on your melee weapon without getting a conclave mod. Reach, Primed Reach and Reflex Coil should be usable mods. These mods make melee more consistent without increasing DPS.

Edited March 23, 2015 by KyrosQF

[Burnthesteak87]

 With all that said, understand this as well.

 

 I also seriously support the idea of including larger maps as soon as possible. It is my current opinion that the Conclave rotation should be expanded to work more like this:

 

 'Small Map (Ice Cliffs) - Medium Map - Small Map (Corpus Ship) - Large Map - Small Map (Void Gap) - Medium Map - Repeat'

 

 In order to open things up a bit and encourage changing approaches. We need maps that take longer to traverse.

It's ok, with a rotation different maps will force different gameplays, but ..don't you think that larger maps will just support more the "zerg" playstyle?

I've seen it yet on another games, where the numeric advantage was proportional to the time to reach the fight zone.

[Burnthesteak87]

...

First of all spamming Oneshots like bow's aren't constructive. It's not a counter, it's the quickest way to get rid of your opponent. The same that happens by spamming Slash Dash or Rhino Charge. And again, I don't really give anything if it's harder than hitting with an automatic weapon, it's something that experience will make just better thus making the game a Far West game.

The problem of Wombo Combos and heavy Crowd Controls are managed on other games with:

- cooldowns to break out of the crowd control, or

- by making these hard CC telegraphed.

- passive stats reducing the CC effect (ex:LoL Tenacity)

The victim must always have the chance to fight back or to react actively.

Actually we have Handspring and Sure Footed. Even Shock Absorbers and Rapid Resilience would be nice mods to prevent HeavyCC-WCs.

I would also like to see implemented a Force of Will/Ukemi action able to make you raise up faster or break out of CC and consuming Stamina or Energy, thus making their management the killing point.

Actually I don't see a nice thing adding slow on guns, we've yet seen how the melee permastagger worked on Conclave 1.0.

There must be a Diminishing Return, elseway it will be ridicle.

Another idea came from Amazerath:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/422460-pvp-oneshots-dont-belong-competitive-pvp/page-3#entry4693963

Old shooters had Armor pickups on the map, often increasing your resistence to heavy damage thus avoiding being oneshotted. This could easily be translated with Overshield pickups or Armor pickups increasing the armor in a compensative manner (More armored Warframes will benefit, but benefit less than less armored WFs).

Edited March 23, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Blatantfool]

 If you knock someone down and kill them or CC/Kill someone...that's the same as one shotting them. As soon as someone is hit by it, they are dead and there's nothing they can do. So really your argument against one shots is allowing solo executable wombo combos which is the same thing.

 

I'm not against wombo combos as they serve the same purpose as one shots. They exist to counter things. The question to ask is "how easy is this one shot/wombo to do to someone"? Difficult or Situational? Then its fine. Super easy to use in every situation? There's a problem. That's where you get balance.

 

Addressing the issues of melee, while improving melee AND giving counterplay to fast firing weapons

 

Melee being used a lot isn't a result of melee damage being vastly overpowered, its because most guns are just vastly underpowered. In order to balance both there should be three adjustments (If only 1 or 2 happen, there'd be new imbalances)...

 

1. Primary and Secondary weapons need to have their uncommon conclave mod adjusted. Currently they add a 6 second tracking to tenno hit with the weapon, it should also apply a 30-50% movement speed debuff for the duration. (Refreshable with more hits). This is something that faster firing weapons benefit more from than something like a bow. This is a good thing given that faster firing weapons deal less damage. Also, you are creating a team wombo if someone shoots a cephalon carrier with a braton allowing the paris user to hit the target easier.

 

2. Coptering and Directional melee speed need to be affected by any ability, proc or effect that reduces movement speed of your warframe. At the moment if I get hit by Frost's 1 or 2 or Rhino's 4, I walk SOOOO SLOW but can copter at regular speed. Counterplay loses out here as anti-mobility moves are not hindering mobility. This must change. If this change is implemented, PvE does not suffer and PvP will have counterplay to a mobile opponent.

 

3. Right now there are no mods you can use on your melee weapon without getting a conclave mod. Reach, Primed Reach and Reflex Coil should be usable mods. These mods make melee more consistent without increasing DPS.

 

 But it IS different from a one-shot kill because you aren't dead outright at all. That is a weak conclusion to draw.

 

  I touched on this a bit in another post - it is significant that skills have 'Ammo' in the form of Energy. As long as DE is wise and doesn't involve Energy Efficiency mods in PvP it's fairly easy for that part of the game to work out well.

 

 We can just quickly touch on the different options available to players when dealing with CC skills:

 

- If the skill is a knockdown, there are numerous mods available that either completely eradicate or greatly reduce the downtime you'd suffer. It's reasonable to assume these mods or similar ones will inevitably turn up in PvP. We'll need them.

 

- Energy denial is a powerful concept. You can hog up the energy on the map with your team. This DOES work and CAN turn things around. The enemy is limited in how many times they'll be able to unleash their serious hurt. This opens up a whole new can of worms, with teams not just fighting over the Cephalons, but also over control of the Energy. That is a good thing, it means players can set themselves apart by being better at controlling the match.

 

- Your own skills will often give you interesting answers to some of the more dangerous Enemy skills. Using your energy in order to prevent the efficient use of their energy is also leaving room for players to set themselves apart by simply having the know how to avoid the worst of what the enemy throws at them. For example, Ecalibur's 2 and 4 will render him immune to MPrime if the wave hits you while you're mid-animation. Often enough Radial Blind will also have a chance to snag the Nova trying to MPrime you. But that isn't what is important - for only 50 energy you can avoid a skill that costs them 100. You waste their resources this way.

 

 That aside, slide melee damage needs a nerf. Too stronk.

 

 About your numbered points. I guess I'll give my general opinion on those:

 

1. Adding slows to ranged weapons would be a poor idea. That means any Tenno with a Braton or Strun could just fire randomly hoping for a single connecting hit in order to score the massive, crippling slow. Conclave would become campy since getting the first hit would decide the fight. That'd be an incredibly poor solution and it'd harm Warframe's fast paced gameplay - one of it's serious strengths.

 

2.  We agree on this. CC must be made to work on a coptering player. It's part of creating a balance in conclave by turning skills into the tool meant to combat the high mobility we all have in gameplay..

 

3. Primed mods must not be allowed into Conclave. Not a single one. Leave the power creep for PvE where it can't create a problem. Attack speed mods may also be a mistake, as the faster a melee weapons attack speed the greater the momentum boost from coptering and airdashing. Any Conclave mod effecting attack speed may need to be conclave specific. Berserker might be alright though.

[onemoonlight]

(...) Coptering - along with all highly mobile gameplay tricks and strategies - can be balanced by simply making sure there are answers for them. In this case I believe the absolute best solution is for those answers to be skills. First order of business should absolutely be figuring out how to prevent coptering from protecting the player from various types of CC effects in PvP. Then we can play with Conclave in that state and see if that alone fixes it or if further changes are needed.

 

this doesnt answer my concern about an energy based mechanics being a counter to just... mechanics

 

the moment you run out of energy and dont have more energy orbs to pick up OR the energy got distributed in a way that gives no party member a reliable CC, you're boned. Or, even worse, you got MMed into a team that has CC abilities that require a lot of energy, and everyone go for that energy pickups just to find out no one has enough E to cast them

 

i would understand this type of mechanic if there were aggressive spawns for one or two party members when enemy has your flag, so you can perform SOME counter play, but there are none - all party members spawn on owned part of the map, always. Right now it turns into a 'hunt enemy ceph carrier before our own dies'

 

also, abilities are often times not as reliable - lets take mag again as an example, as she has a stun on her first ability and is playable atm - if someone is coptering horizontally on your screen, there is no way to land that, you have to setup into a position that will have him coptering in a straight line away from you, but that takes a second, and by the time youre done, he's outta the range OR is going to be as you begin the cast - the time window in which the target has to be in a small aoe cone with a limited range, as well as the window of time that he has to STAY in that aoe until you finish the cast makes the ability really unreliable

 

also, from my experience so far, constantly doing aerial attacks around your base and grabbing the nearest energy spawns just straight up protects you from 3 people coming after your &#! and their ceph - facility map is a good example - jump from top platform to bottom right, to top flag, to bottom left, to top platform again and just continue; can chain some copters on basement level if things get hot or towards health orbs in the mid - maybe some former quake pro has the target tracking ability to keep up, but with the current TTK on hitscan weapons id be willing to bet even they would have serious problems. You CAN die to a good ult, but have fun collecting all that 100 energy while your carrier is also under serious heat and both carriers are constantly grabbing energy on their part of the map, and your other party members are also aiming for that 100

 

the current mobility potential versus kill potential is just too uneven, and CC abilities are too unreliable to even consider them counters because of energy requirements or mechanics within those abilities