Loki And Nova Are Too Op. They Must Be Nerfed

[RealPandemonium]

The Core of Warframe is godmode:

 

 

Godmode is what made Warframe successful, so successful that a chicken products manufacturer bought DE.

 

Telling DE to put a stop to godmode is telling DE to pull a bait and switch, a shady business practice, and lose profit.

 

Godmode doesn't remove game play.  Godmode is a a form of gameplay, as valid as any other.  Despite that fact that some people do not like it, a lot of other people do like godmode and it sells very well.

You should seek therapy to help with whatever video games have done to you in the past...

 

Perhaps stick to single player games with cheats enabled?

[Bobtm]

The Core of Warframe is godmode:

 

 

Godmode is what made Warframe successful, so successful that a chicken products manufacturer bought DE.

 

Telling DE to put a stop to godmode is telling DE to pull a bait and switch, a shady business practice, and lose profit.

 

Godmode doesn't remove game play.  Godmode is a a form of gameplay, as valid as any other.  Despite that fact that some people do not like it, a lot of other people do like godmode and it sells very well.

 

You've entirely misunderstood what the quote you're clinging to really and truely means.  Beyond that, your core understanding of video games in general is harshly lacking.

 

If godmode was the intent then Trinity would never have been nerfed.  Rhino's initial invulnerable Iron Skin never would've been nerfed.  I could go on and present countless examples of this every step of the way.

 

Nothing in that quote says godmode is the point, not even in the slightest.  All it says is that we're powerful versus groups of foes, not invulnerable to them.  There's a wealth of difference between being powerful and being unstoppable.  We're intended, very clearly I might add, to be the former of those rather than the latter.  The very fact that we are provided with a limited HP pool contradicts what you're trying to claim.  Death, and losing a given mission are always part of the parameters here.  When an ability crops up that prevents any reasonable chance of loss, there's a solid chance that this ability will be reviewed and thusly changed appropriately.

 

Godmode isn't some magically perfect gameplay thing, beyond that it's known to be a very flawed design ideology by those in the industry.  Gamers at large do not want to always win everything forever.  Even if they say otherwise, the very concept behind why folks play games iterates on where they started.  Games are glorified puzzles, all presented in an infinite possibility of different wrappers.

 

Of course this isn't to say that all games should be to the same difficulty scaling or anything like that.  But hard data has time and again proven that easy godmode is pretty much a failed basis for a game.  Furthering this point, note how even single-player games almost never allow cheat codes these days.  It's a relic of the past, proven to be a flawed addition to games.  Some games still have cheats for godmode as a novelty of course, but that's all it ever is.

[ArcariusAero]

There's a wealth of difference between being powerful and being unstoppable. 

Exactly. (Loki isn't unstoppable, he has a very small health and shield pool. He can easily be taken out, even by disarmed enemies that are fast enough.)

[LazyKnight]

Just curious; When people claim Loki's disarm is overpowered are they talking about the irradiating augmentation?

 

There is a rather huge between the two, as disarming without the radiation proc gives them a melee attack that can do significant damage and it seems to scale to 1-hit kill quickly.

[Bobtm]

Exactly. (Loki isn't unstoppable, he has a very small health and shield pool. He can easily be taken out, even by disarmed enemies that are fast enough.)

 

While I'm definitely not for some form of massive nerf to Loki's RD... you really can't be serious about the threat posed by disarmed foes.

 

Currently the AI subroutines that exist for them are, at best, laughable.  Soloing any difficulty level of an Interception for instance is a breeze with Loki as disarmed foes aren't capable of using consoles.  Foes who've been disarmed have only one attack in total.  It's a super slow, heavily telegraphed, and easy to avoid hit.  I'm not saying they need to act as though they're under the influence of a speed Nova's MPrime by any stretch, but right now they're sorely lacking.

 

RD turns the game into duck hunt at the moment.  While nerfing the hell out of RD itself could solve this, I believe that's the worst solution to go with.  Rather just make the AI not broken when they're disarmed and it solves the problems with RD without needing to even change the ability.

 

All in all what I'd want to see happen is the damage on a single hit of disarmed foes being reduced, while improving their ability to actively try and land a hit.  This would put the skill in a good place in my opinion.

[LazyKnight]

All in all what I'd want to see happen is the damage on a single hit of disarmed foes being reduced, while improving their ability to actively try and land a hit.  This would put the skill in a good place in my opinion.

The problem is irradiating disarm ruins their already bad Ai. Even if they were given the same berserker type phase that Goliath's have in Borderlands, they would still be mostly harmless. Would be terrify if i-Disarm did not exist though.

 

This confusion type effect that Loki and Nyx have is not something the NPCs can deal with.

 

Edit: No I am not asking for nerfs or buffs. Just pointing that out.

Edited March 28, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Censium]

All around AI needs to be improved. That would solve alot of this. But while Loki and Nova are extremely squishy, and easy to kill if the player is not paying attention, Nova's slow down attack (Cannot remember the name) and Radial Disarm do have some very over powered aspects to them. And putting a time on them won't fix it.

 

For example: Radial Disarm, Permanently makes all enemies in range useless. So there has to be a factor to counteract that. Like giving the AI a way to reclaim their weapons, or making it so Loki pulls the weapons away, and scatters them, and the AI has to decide if it wants to charge with an over-glorified twig, or run and try to recover their weapons.

 

I have no example for <Namehere> because I have yet to play Nova.

[Bobtm]

The problem is irradiating disarm ruins their already bad Ai.

Yeah, that part is surely tricky.  That's why I've entirely avoided touching on Irradiating Disarm when looking at this.

 

The safest route here (of course in my opinion) would be to enact/add some AI changes under the course of how foes act normally during disarm and see how that would play out without any other changes when they're hit with the augmented version.  Whether or not any more changes are needed after that point is all up in the air.  Of course it's all hypothetical stuff at this point, but it's better to go forward in steps than try and blanket a change over both the standard and augment one in a single pass.

[AlphaHorseman]

Yeah, that part is surely tricky.  That's why I've entirely avoided touching on Irradiating Disarm when looking at this.

 

The safest route here (of course in my opinion) would be to enact/add some AI changes under the course of how foes act normally during disarm and see how that would play out without any other changes when they're hit with the augmented version.  Whether or not any more changes are needed after that point is all up in the air.  Of course it's all hypothetical stuff at this point, but it's better to go forward in steps than try and blanket a change over both the standard and augment one in a single pass.

Improved AI is a far better route as well, in my opinion.

 

Better AI could help the entire game overall. Maybe things like these could help as well:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/425117-we-need-better-enemies-not-just-bullet-sponges-grineer-nullifiers-yes-plural/#entry4716839

 

That way enemies have better tools and more variety if a Loki looses a Radial Disarm. It's not just police batons anymore, but some interesting weapons to see on the battlefield.

 

When Irradiated Disarm goes off, anyone know what the AI pathing is like?

Edited March 28, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[LazyKnight]

When Irradiated Disarm goes off, anyone know what the AI pathing is like?

Not sure if I am answering the thing you want to know.

 

When it first goes off they take as long as the switch teleport disorientation to find any attack-able target near them and they start running at it. They are not bad at all at finding an NPC to beat on they just have that clueless moment before moving.

 

If you chain cast I-disarm, they will be stuck in that confusion phase, and it works like an expensive stun.

Edited March 29, 2015 by LazyKnight

[InoxMaximus]

Yes they are OP, i can kill every enemy under lvl 20 with 1 SHOT ! Truly OP.

[AlphaHorseman]

Not sure if I am answering the thing you want to know.

 

When it first goes of they take as long as the switch teleport disorientation to find any attack-able target near them and they start running at it. They are not bad at all at finding an NPC to beat on they just have that clueless moment before moving.

 

If you chain cast I-disarm, they will be stuck in that confusion phase, and it works like an expensive stun.

Oh cool. That makes sense.

 

Still though, improved AI sounds like a good route to take, and giving our enemies more melee weapon variety when they're disarmed. Imagine a Heavy Gunner or Bombard with a Jat Kittag? That would be interesting. Or a Grineer Commander with an Atterax? It isn't a nerf to Radial Disarm, but an increase in enemy weapon variety and their AI as well.

[MrKeel]

I love that combo but there are loads of combos just like that. Teamwork should be rewarded not nerfed

 

[(PSN)Lordbleu12]

Lol at this thread and scrubs who screaming for Loki and Nova nerf. Its time to get out the star chart kiddies.. Anyone whos laster longer than 20min in T4 survival and 35 waves in T4 def knows this thread is utter trash. Loki and Nova are fine.. Loki and nova are a endgame frames their skills more than enough show this to be true especially in a game modes when enemies levels raise indefinitely . RD is fine and MP is fine. Instead of screaming nerf this and nerf that we should be saying give all frames viable CC so frames like cough Sayrn cough Ember cough Frost cough Volt cough Zepyr..... Can be useful  when enemies past  lvl 50

[SIDESTRE4M]

Lol at this thread and scrubs who screaming for Loki and Nova nerf. Its time to get out the star chart kiddies.. Anyone whos laster longer than 20min in T4 survival and 35 waves in T4 def knows this thread is utter trash. Loki and Nova are fine.. Loki and nova are a endgame frames their skills more than enough show this to be true especially in a game modes when enemies levels raise indefinitely . RD is fine and MP is fine. Instead of screaming nerf this and nerf that we should be saying give all frames viable CC so frames like cough Sayrn cough Ember cough Frost cough Volt cough Zepyr..... Can be useful  when enemies past  lvl 50

 

Anyone who lasts longer than 20min in T4 survival and 35 waves in T4 def probably knows how bad everything scales and how big the difference between damage frames and utility frames becomes.

 

There are more problems incorporated in this dilemma. However some people don't see a dilemma. That's another dilemma.

 

But there is light. They even said on the dev stream their premise is that every frame is useful to the same degree. We all know that perfect scenario won't happen, but maybe we will move in that direction.

Edited March 29, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[LordRaine]

You completely proved my point, again.

Most of that was directed at someone else, as any intelligent person would realize when I start mentioning things you never said. But by all means, feel free to continue to believe everything is all about you, and attack the tone of an argument instead of the argument itself. That'll prove you're superior, for sure!

 

 

 

 

My favorite melee is the Obex. I'm not going to use an Amphis just to move around faster. I'm not going to use Volt just to move around faster.

Then you're not only an idiot, you are also dead weight. The Obex is trash, no fist weapon is good, none of them are even cool looking since the Design Council decided to vote on Edgelord Infested Whip No.2 over the Grineer Piston Fists, and the only reason to ever run a fist weapon "for fun" would be with Power Strength Volt so you can spam speed and then punch someone nine thousand times in half a second. If you're using Volt and not spamming speed, you are the weakest link, and everybody in the party is wondering to themselves what you're doing not spamming speed. If you're using any fist weapon in the game and not using it with Volt, then I don't even know what you're doing anymore. Wasting everyone's time, I guess, including your own.

 

I wanted those fists, too. Thanks Desgin Council, for being edgy and twelve yet again.

 

Speaking of which, whoo boy, am I laughing. All those people calling me out for crapping on the Council and calling them a bunch of edgy children with no taste. How dare I assume things, how dare I say that, I shouldn't generalize, that's such a terrible thing to do.

 

Gothic lolita bomb frame. 

 

Gothic. Lolita. Bomb. Frame. 

 

I mean, wow. Really? Let's just go down the list. It's DeviantArt tier. It's literally something from an anime, and not a good one either. It's clearly someone's fetish. Whose, I don't know. Probably the same people who masturbate to Jinx from LoL.

 

How cringe inducing is it that somebody not only thought that up, but took it seriously and actually posted it? In public, where other people can see, amongst other things that could be seriously considered for frame designs and ideas?

 

This is like, five checks on the list. Five. You guys were calling me out for even making the list, and one of the first proposals takes half the list in one go. I guess I should count my blessings that she isn't default red and black and canonically Stalker's younger sister who is actually his older sister because she's really 500 years old even though she looks twelve. And also a vampire succubus.

 

Stay classy, Design Council. 

 

Granted, I like Amphis and Volt, but it doesn't change the fact that, as the person you attacked said, you think statistical advantages can be overcome by "getting good". You just went full circle with your arguments.

No. You're just apparently the kind of idiot who wants to be able to use garbage weapons and have competetiveness with better builds handed to him on a silver platter. I just spent over a thousand words explaining to you that coptering eliminates statistical advantages by leveling the playing field, and how to do it so you can't complain about not knowing. And your perception filter just completely blocked it out so you could pretend I went in a circle.

 

If you refuse to make use of the thing that eliminates statistical advantages as far as speed is concerned, you are knowingly handicapping yourself, and have no right to complain about other people being faster than you. At that point, you're just being a crybaby who wants to be able to keep their pacifier but also be taken seriously at a job interview.

 

You can like the Bolto, you can love the Bolto. Most players happen to like a crappy gun or weapon that is not nearly as useful as the others. There is nothing wrong with that at all. But if you keep bringing it into high end content long after it just became a useless gun-shaped stick, you lose the right to complain that you aren't doing any damage with it. You know you are not going to be dealing any damage with it, and you also know why.

 

The same argument applies. The advantage can be overcome by "gitting gud," i.e. learning how to copter, which is quick and easy and the most useful thing melee can possibly do for you right now, but if someone like you doesn't 'want' to be good, doesn't 'want' to bring something besides the Obex, then that is on you and it is your fault. You are not being abused by other players nor is the game unbalanced. You are knowingly making a poor loadout decision and then expecting the game and everyone else in it to compensate for you and your preferences. I really like my Grakata and my Galantine, but I don't bring the first into high end play and I haven't used the second since they killed Charge Attacks, because I have a little thing called "common courtesy."

 

Turn solo on, and don't drag everyone else down with you. Some of us don't want to spend three hours to run Phoid for his Injector rewards.

 

Another thing is that the rewards are so tied to the game in your mind that gameplay doesn't even factor in.

And you accuse me of making assumptions of others. Good job being a hypocrite as well as the guy who makes everyone wait for him because he thinks the Obex is cool.

 

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. That I think the rewards are the only thing that matters?

 

No, but they are certainly a lot more important than sightseeing and making everyone wait on me. DE has almost 500 possible mission nodes, and all of them use the same six or so tile sets. I've seen it, I assure you.

 

If you're talking about combat? It's a joke. There is no balance there at all. Armor has been broken since Damage 2.0, and DE has refused to fix it because it's not high on their priority list and most of you aren't even aware of the math that makes it work. When DE first introduced Sword Alone, they experimented heavily with the mechanics of combat. They introduced aerial juggling, enemies that could parry melee attacks, the stamina bar was completely removed so you could parry and do acrobatics forever if you wanted to, all stealth attacks were 100% lethal, they played with Valkyr's ripline being able to auto-track and hookshot enemies, including ones that were in the air, and allow her to pull herself to them or pull them to her so she could continue stacking combos, and they had melee combo counter that gave massive bonus affinity rewards for doing well and increased the damage dealt with each successive blow. They even played with the idea of allowing someone to equipt multiple melee weapons at once, such as a whip and daggers or a hammer and a sword in place of carrying a melee weapon and a gun, and allow your combos to change as you dynamically switch back and forth between them when you attack enemies.

 

Sword Alone created a style of gameplay that was reminiscient of multiplayer co-op Devil May Cry. They even described it as being 'like' Devil May Cry, with the ability to magnet towards enemies in melee, quickly closing distance with dashes and engaging them on the ground or taking them into the air to juggle them if you had enough skill, and incorporating multiple weapons from your loadout into the combo chain.

 

Literally none of that made it into the game, except for a crappy version of the combo counter that doesn't matter and is an absolute joke because you need to stack it into the hundreds to get any reasonable amount of bonus damage. You know why?

That's why melee is garbage. That's why the only good thing Sword Alone brought is the aerial attack. "It felt like a good game, but it wasn't Warframe." It was not "Warframey enough."

 

DE doesn't know what Warframe is. They never have. The original concept was

Even as early as the third major update, Warframe exhibited none of those traits. It was not stealth focused, the player could easily overpower and destroy everything that stood in their way, and evading and decieving enemies was (and still is, for the most part) the sole providence of Loki.

 

Is it about four people mowing down massive groups enemies and being super ninjas? Apparently not, if all the tears about overpowered frames and weapons is anything to go by. Is it about clever solo play? No, according to DE, the game is intended to be played cooperatively. Is it about an engaging story? It can't be, because there isn't any story. The most story we ever got was the original Vor cinematic where some upstart Grineer commander was trying to muscle in on his territory because he had lost some favor with the Queens, and he shot the guy in the face and kept on walking. That was everyone's introduction to the story of Warframe, and it kind of just stopped there. We beat Vor, escaped, and then a whole lot of people died because a voice in our head told us to hunt them down and kill them? So I guess Vor wasn't really so bad of a guy after all, objectively.

 

It's not about the combat, because DE stopped us from having fun and engaging combat that rewards us for fighting more people in missions and is flashy and entertaining. They said that was a good game, but was not Warframe. It's not about killing huge numbers of dudes, apparently, though some people seem to disagree on that point. It's not about the story. It isn't about the scenery, or we'd have more tilesets. It can't be about the loot, or DE wouldn't hide it behind a billion hours of grindwall. It isn't about cooperatively playing and combining your powers, according to most of the people here, that's "too OP," not that half of the people complaining seem to understand what the word means. It's not even debatably about going fast, since half the dev team loves coptering and wants to reproduce it reliably in the Havok engine so they can make all weapons do it, and the other half hates it and wishes it never existed. Steve is pro-copter, by the way, have fun with that nugget of knowledge. And it isn't about PvP either, since PvP was always a joke and kind of still is. It is a halfhearted addendum at best. 

 

What do teens like? Is it memes? Memes about skeletons? Urine? Communism?

 

Who knows? Nobody knows. Not DE, that's for sure.

 

So I don't know. You tell me. What should I be prioritizing? What actually is the gameplay? Because if you think it is the mediocre byplay between my guns and a Grineer's face, then I'm sorry, but that is neither fun nor does it reward me personally for engaging in it. It is less painful to just copter past, hit the objective, and head to extraction, and I lose nothing of value for doing so.

 

Maybe the real endgame is supposed to be me and the Grineer playing high stakes Texas Hold'em while we wait for you and your Obex.

 

Warframe best pro-Poker circuit simulator 2015.

Edited March 29, 2015 by LordRaine

[vaugahn]

-snip-

 

I'd just like to point out that tone is very important.

 

The disagreement hierarchy (or the tone fallacy in general) is talking about the basis on which someone is disagreeing with you. People aren't disagreeing with your argument because of its tone, they're simply disagreeing with the tone.

 

Now, you're allowed to speak with whatever tone you want, but we do have a rule about respect. Also, being respectful is generally more effective in a debate than being all abrasive and yell-y.

[RealPandemonium]

snip

You of all people shouldn't be posting that chart.  Your posts are like a case study on how to derail a civil discussion.

 

Also, telling someone that they're dead weight for using a perfectly acceptable weapon just because they will move through the map somewhat more slowly and aren't using THE BEST BUILD is the quintessence of what's wrong the feedback that DE is reading on these forums.

[UseNet]

Successful troll thread is successful. . .

OP hasn't replied to a comment in over 12 pages, let this thread die. It's an nonconstructive thread and needs to go the way of Old Yeller.

[LordRaine]

You of all people shouldn't be posting that chart.  Your posts are like a case study on how to derail a civil discussion.

I was not aware LOL PLS NERF was "civil discussion." Apparently you and I have radically different definitions of what "civil discussion" actually entails. Calling the barely constrained riot that has been happening here and elsewhere over the U16 changes "civil discourse" is granting yourself undue airs.

 

Also, "you of all people" is ad hominen. Attack on character. Good job lowing yourself to the level you accuse me of. Before you know it you'll be calling me DE Approved Content.

 

Also, telling someone that they're dead weight for using a perfectly acceptable weapon

The Obex was not a perfectly acceptable weapon when it was first released. Time has not changed it's status for the better. 

 

It's about time you stop pretending that Warframe isn't a game with 200 weapons where only 20 actually see any use.

 

just because they will move through the map somewhat more slowly and aren't using THE BEST BUILD is the quintessence of what's wrong the feedback that DE is reading on these forums.

Except that's not what is happening. What is happing is, people complain that others are going faster than they are. I didn't complain. I couldn't care less if other people want to be garbage. It's a free to play game, 80% of the playerbase will always be bad and the majority of people who will ever play it will quit in a month because they didn't like it. It's how all free to play games work. You'll note that DE boasts their playerbase as accounts created, not accounts that are active. It's almost like they're spinning the numbers to their advantage, just like every other corporate entity does.

 

I didn't complain people were going slow. Other people complained that people were going too fast. If they don't want to go fast, that's on them, but I reserve the right to call you a plebian, a scrub, and a waste of space. You're the one wasting my time while I carry you around, not vice versa. I even explained how they could go fast, so they've got no excuse not to. 

 

If you want to handicap yourself and be slow and weak, that's fine. Just do it on Mercury or Venus, where your poor loadout is catered to, or do it solo, away from me and everyone else who is trying to get their Invasion runs done. Your choices stop affecting just you when you intrude the consequences of those choices onto everyone else around you, and that's when suddenly the rest of us get the right to call you out on it. There is a reason some places ban smoking, or why it is illegal to drive while intoxicated. It is because your decision to do something ill advised to yourself is now affecting people around you, and that is not okay.

 

If Warframe is about anything, it is about contributing to the team, and if you are not going to contribute because you are too busy being a special snowflake and doing your own thing, then leave. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by LordRaine

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Most of that was directed at someone else, as any intelligent person would realize when I start mentioning things you never said. But by all means, feel free to continue to believe everything is all about you, and attack the tone of an argument instead of the argument itself. That'll prove you're superior, for sure!

 

 

 

 

Then you're not only an idiot, you are also dead weight. The Obex is trash, no fist weapon is good, none of them are even cool looking since the Design Council decided to vote on Edgelord Infested Whip No.2 over the Grineer Piston Fists, and the only reason to ever run a fist weapon "for fun" would be with Power Strength Volt so you can spam speed and then punch someone nine thousand times in half a second. If you're using Volt and not spamming speed, you are the weakest link, and everybody in the party is wondering to themselves what you're doing not spamming speed. If you're using any fist weapon in the game and not using it with Volt, then I don't even know what you're doing anymore. Wasting everyone's time, I guess, including your own.

 

I wanted those fists, too. Thanks Desgin Council, for being edgy and twelve yet again.

 

Speaking of which, whoo boy, am I laughing. All those people calling me out for crapping on the Council and calling them a bunch of edgy children with no taste. How dare I assume things, how dare I say that, I shouldn't generalize, that's such a terrible thing to do.

 

Gothic lolita bomb frame. 

 

Gothic. Lolita. Bomb. Frame. 

 

I mean, wow. Really? Let's just go down the list. It's DeviantArt tier. It's literally something from an anime, and not a good one either. It's clearly someone's fetish. Whose, I don't know. Probably the same people who masturbate to Jinx from LoL.

 

How cringe inducing is it that somebody not only thought that up, but took it seriously and actually posted it? In public, where other people can see, amongst other things that could be seriously considered for frame designs and ideas?

 

This is like, five checks on the list. Five. You guys were calling me out for even making the list, and one of the first proposals takes half the list in one go. I guess I should count my blessings that she isn't default red and black and canonically Stalker's younger sister who is actually his older sister because she's really 500 years old even though she looks twelve. And also a vampire succubus.

 

Stay classy, Design Council. 

 

No. You're just apparently the kind of idiot who wants to be able to use garbage weapons and have competetiveness with better builds handed to him on a silver platter. I just spent over a thousand words explaining to you that coptering eliminates statistical advantages by leveling the playing field, and how to do it so you can't complain about not knowing. And your perception filter just completely blocked it out so you could pretend I went in a circle.

 

If you refuse to make use of the thing that eliminates statistical advantages as far as speed is concerned, you are knowingly handicapping yourself, and have no right to complain about other people being faster than you. At that point, you're just being a crybaby who wants to be able to keep their pacifier but also be taken seriously at a job interview.

 

You can like the Bolto, you can love the Bolto. Most players happen to like a crappy gun or weapon that is not nearly as useful as the others. There is nothing wrong with that at all. But if you keep bringing it into high end content long after it just became a useless gun-shaped stick, you lose the right to complain that you aren't doing any damage with it. You know you are not going to be dealing any damage with it, and you also know why.

 

The same argument applies. The advantage can be overcome by "gitting gud," i.e. learning how to copter, which is quick and easy and the most useful thing melee can possibly do for you right now, but if someone like you doesn't 'want' to be good, doesn't 'want' to bring something besides the Obex, then that is on you and it is your fault. You are not being abused by other players nor is the game unbalanced. You are knowingly making a poor loadout decision and then expecting the game and everyone else in it to compensate for you and your preferences. I really like my Grakata and my Galantine, but I don't bring the first into high end play and I haven't used the second since they killed Charge Attacks, because I have a little thing called "common courtesy."

 

Turn solo on, and don't drag everyone else down with you. Some of us don't want to spend three hours to run Phoid for his Injector rewards.

 

And you accuse me of making assumptions of others. Good job being a hypocrite as well as the guy who makes everyone wait for him because he thinks the Obex is cool.

 

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. That I think the rewards are the only thing that matters?

 

No, but they are certainly a lot more important than sightseeing and making everyone wait on me. DE has almost 500 possible mission nodes, and all of them use the same six or so tile sets. I've seen it, I assure you.

 

If you're talking about combat? It's a joke. There is no balance there at all. Armor has been broken since Damage 2.0, and DE has refused to fix it because it's not high on their priority list and most of you aren't even aware of the math that makes it work. When DE first introduced Sword Alone, they experimented heavily with the mechanics of combat. They introduced aerial juggling, enemies that could parry melee attacks, the stamina bar was completely removed so you could parry and do acrobatics forever if you wanted to, all stealth attacks were 100% lethal, they played with Valkyr's ripline being able to auto-track and hookshot enemies, including ones that were in the air, and allow her to pull herself to them or pull them to her so she could continue stacking combos, and they had melee combo counter that gave massive bonus affinity rewards for doing well and increased the damage dealt with each successive blow. They even played with the idea of allowing someone to equipt multiple melee weapons at once, such as a whip and daggers or a hammer and a sword in place of carrying a melee weapon and a gun, and allow your combos to change as you dynamically switch back and forth between them when you attack enemies.

 

Sword Alone created a style of gameplay that was reminiscient of multiplayer co-op Devil May Cry. They even described it as being 'like' Devil May Cry, with the ability to magnet towards enemies in melee, quickly closing distance with dashes and engaging them on the ground or taking them into the air to juggle them if you had enough skill, and incorporating multiple weapons from your loadout into the combo chain.

 

Literally none of that made it into the game, except for a crappy version of the combo counter that doesn't matter and is an absolute joke because you need to stack it into the hundreds to get any reasonable amount of bonus damage. You know why?

That's why melee is garbage. That's why the only good thing Sword Alone brought is the aerial attack. "It felt like a good game, but it wasn't Warframe." It was not "Warframey enough."

 

DE doesn't know what Warframe is. They never have. The original concept was

Even as early as the third major update, Warframe exhibited none of those traits. It was not stealth focused, the player could easily overpower and destroy everything that stood in their way, and evading and decieving enemies was (and still is, for the most part) the sole providence of Loki.

 

Is it about four people mowing down massive groups enemies and being super ninjas? Apparently not, if all the tears about overpowered frames and weapons is anything to go by. Is it about clever solo play? No, according to DE, the game is intended to be played cooperatively. Is it about an engaging story? It can't be, because there isn't any story. The most story we ever got was the original Vor cinematic where some upstart Grineer commander was trying to muscle in on his territory because he had lost some favor with the Queens, and he shot the guy in the face and kept on walking. That was everyone's introduction to the story of Warframe, and it kind of just stopped there. We beat Vor, escaped, and then a whole lot of people died because a voice in our head told us to hunt them down and kill them? So I guess Vor wasn't really so bad of a guy after all, objectively.

 

It's not about the combat, because DE stopped us from having fun and engaging combat that rewards us for fighting more people in missions and is flashy and entertaining. They said that was a good game, but was not Warframe. It's not about killing huge numbers of dudes, apparently, though some people seem to disagree on that point. It's not about the story. It isn't about the scenery, or we'd have more tilesets. It can't be about the loot, or DE wouldn't hide it behind a billion hours of grindwall. It isn't about cooperatively playing and combining your powers, according to most of the people here, that's "too OP," not that half of the people complaining seem to understand what the word means. It's not even debatably about going fast, since half the dev team loves coptering and wants to reproduce it reliably in the Havok engine so they can make all weapons do it, and the other half hates it and wishes it never existed. Steve is pro-copter, by the way, have fun with that nugget of knowledge. And it isn't about PvP either, since PvP was always a joke and kind of still is. It is a halfhearted addendum at best. 

 

What do teens like? Is it memes? Memes about skeletons? Urine? Communism?

 

Who knows? Nobody knows. Not DE, that's for sure.

 

So I don't know. You tell me. What should I be prioritizing? What actually is the gameplay? Because if you think it is the mediocre byplay between my guns and a Grineer's face, then I'm sorry, but that is neither fun nor does it reward me personally for engaging in it. It is less painful to just copter past, hit the objective, and head to extraction, and I lose nothing of value for doing so.

 

Maybe the real endgame is supposed to be me and the Grineer playing high stakes Texas Hold'em while we wait for you and your Obex.

 

Warframe best pro-Poker circuit simulator 2015.

I don't understand how you can post that chart and then turn around and say "you're not only an idiot, you're also dead weight". Also, as someone who consistently outdamages people with a Brutal Tide Obex in T4S, I can tell you that it's a great weapon--high attack speed, high movement in combat keeping you from getting hit often, lots of damage on crits, and lots of CC make it so. It won't work with a squishy frame, but that's fine. I'd rather have an Obex at high levels, knocking down enemies and then finishing them, than a lot of the "meta" weapons--you just can't use it like a Dakra or Dragon Nikana. So am I a scrub because I can use an Obex when you can't? By the way, I don't use Volt with it--there's no need as it already swings fast enough to permanently stun everyone. Ash, Valkyr, Frost, Rhino, and Saryn are the ones to use it with.

You did go in a circle. You used coptering--something based on weapon class and attack speed--as a reason to show statistical advantages can be beaten by moving on to a different statistical advantage.

Also, I have to highlight the line "And you accuse me of making assumptions of others. Good job being a hypocrite as well as the guy who makes everyone wait for him because he thinks the Obex is cool." Do you know why the first sentence doesn't work with the second half of the second?

Finally, I don't understand how you can enjoy playing a game where you seemingly hate the combat, hate the tiles, hate the systems, only to get rewards that you'll have to use on missions you hate.

Also, please tell me you aren't talking about stuff like E-Gate when you say DE hurt combining powers.

[LordRaine]

I can say it because, according to you in your own words, you are an idiot and also dead weight. There is a clear progression of guns and weapons getting better over time. If you voluntarily and knowingly choose to use weak weapons in high end content and voluntarily and knowingly refuse to use the 'equalizer' that allows you to be as fast as anyone else on levels where the goal is to complete it as fast as possible because we have to do this five times and then move on to the next one that we will have to do five times, then, by your own admission, you are an idiot and also dead weight.

Edited March 29, 2015 by LordRaine

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I can say it because, according to you in your own words, you are an idiot and also dead weight. There is a clear progression of guns and weapons getting better over time. If you voluntarily and knowingly choose to use weak weapons in high end content and voluntarily and knowingly refuse to use the 'equalizer' that allows you to be as fast as anyone else on levels where the goal is to complete it as fast as possible because we have to do this five times and then move on to the next one that we will have to do five times, then, by your own admission, you are an idiot and also dead weight.

Once again, the Obex is only a weak weapon if you treat it like a Dakra. But it has to be used like a mix between a Jat Kittag and a Fang Prime--using speed and CC to gain the upper hand.

And I'm sorry if you think the goal of levels is to complete them as fast as possible so you can get them through. So I'll ask again, why do you play the game at that point? That sounds like a chore or a job you hate, not like a game.

Also, calling someone an idiot is name calling. Once again, look at the chart you posted. "You are an ___" is actually the example of name calling used.

Edited March 29, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[ThePresident777]

Some people like fast.  It's stimulating.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Some people like fast.  It's stimulating.

I don't have a problem with that. Speed is fun. But speed because you want to hurry up and get the mission over with isn't.