Coptering, Pvp, And Current Problem.

[Thalahssalyst]

Caution Read Carefully

Before, to avoid unnecesary comments, First read the whole content, then think in a free and constructive way.

 

What me stimulate to fulfil this topic/feedback, it was the comments that i find in pvp section.
For Example, The Spin without damage, Coptering Good and Spin damage Bad.

 

The constant request of reduction on melee damage.

The most interesting part, is to consider the coptering as game mechanic and movement.

With the recent change, and start the new pvp mode we have left behind lack of balance, at expense of restrictions.

For example, before you could use any warframe, moded  your style, same with weapons but the lack of balance 

that existed was more of the known, died in 1 shot was one of them.

 

Another lack of balance that also existed and still exists, was mobility, and there is where i want to focus this.
The community, often confuse two things thinking they are the same : Coptering and Spin.

 

The movement called Spin, is an actual game mechanic of the game, which allows you to turn 

your melee, causing a lot of damage

 

 

The movement called Coptering, by the community, is a glitch/bug that comes with the aforementioned movement. 

 What causes this movement is being driven by the air, traveling great distances.

 

These 2 things come with a long discussion on like this, ruining the player experience

Ignoring the base of movement and free choice of the player.

 

Now let's be clear , the reason that " ignores the base of the movement"

And the " free choice " player.

With new balances, each Warframe , has its own stats different movement speed, stamina etc.

Range weapons are balanced to cope any Warframe , but what about the melee ?

 

With the latest changes to removed the Spin damage of the melee basic stats ( in pvp mode) , thus being based on the base weapon damage.

Leaving the melee under , weapons range . And the reduction of its damage , continues with each fix .

 

Leaving them almost as Unnecessary use to kill your opponent in melee . But with a little common use, called Coptering

Today, the melee is not used to choice of " which makes more damage" , they choose the one that makes more coptering .

 

Approximately today , 75 % of the games , people only dedicated to rush , making coptering from one base to another

The coptering was used in the old pvp mode like this

 

And today is used in this way

 

Seen by some people , is something that requires skill to use it.

As you will see , you do not need.

 

What about people who prefer to play alone with melee using game mechanics as Parkour ?

As I can  reach a person who does that if i use a heavy melee?

 

If I only want to use Parkour , a current and official game mechanic , why I see myself forced to do coptering to have the same chances on movement speed?

 

However if we do a game, no melee equipped , you'll see how incredibly , the movement is for everyone equally.

Why I can not have the same possibility to reach the opponent doing parkour if I choose to do damage with melee

if someone choose  melee to move ?

 

There is where the " free choice player " is contradicted , today we are forced to deal with people who ignore

the base of each Warframe speed and we are limited and forced to use the so famous coptering.

 

Why? Well, it's the right question. that the capacity and speed of movement is dependent melee you wear ?

If it were , a mechanical balanced and official movement should not be equal or equivalent use coptering that parkour?

The coptering is not a mechanical movement , it's a bug that allows you to travel long distances without consequence.

 

Why evade the concept of free choice ? Well, if we really put us think to be equally quick , we have no choice.

If I decide to go "Sword Alone" I am forced to choose the melee give me more movement speed. But why?

Why is dependent the  Warframe movement speed, on wich one melee you choose?

 

Suppose you choose Rhino tank at the expense of speed and limited stamina , well, I just simply equip

A "bo prime" for example, and ignore those disadvantages .

Now imagine if we equip one Tipedo , when enabled for pvp

 

 

It overlooks the point of having different mechanical moving, speed, stamina consumption or tactic.

 

A game mechanics made ??to move , using resources stamina and based on the configuration of Warframe and not the melee , be faster or slower in that

is based on parkour

Otherwise, coptering adopted by the community so it is not a mechanical Official game , unlike the air strike made

to cope aerial enemies in pve mode. The impetus provided by the mechanics, is rare , that should give you an eye .

 

Who use it to move, it's something different . Same with the Spin.

Not all melee , are with the possibility of using for the coptering in the same way it is used the air strike .

 

One idea was to increase the % stamina used to limit the excessive use of " coptering " but as would affect negatively

Spin if you are 2 different things, but start from the same mechanics ?

 

Current issues provides the coptering in pvp , could be seen differently, but still a problem,

for the current game mechanics , and the free choice of the player. Leaving aside the exploration at different levels

making each game a race to see who covers more distance with Spin.

 

Making the pvp mode , something rather ' copter to win " , depending on who has the melee  with more range covering with a Spin.

 

Being able to repeat it countless times without any restrictions , providing almost total " invulnerability "

 in pvp for speed and long distance that allows you to cover

 

On the other side we have the problem that gives the spin , being able to spamm in the same way countless

Sometimes , becoming hard to face in pvp but being an advantage in pve , low consumption of stamina and significant % damage .

 

the easy and overuse of Spin allows us to uncontrollable spamm unrestricted , facilitating the use of "macros "

 

Why not take the possible idea of ??removing the ability of the spin in the melee ?

See us reduced to respect the mechanical gaming , current , speed and stamina and tactical use different aspect , the sword all equally.

 

Another idea would significantly increase stamina consumption when using melee to limit the excessive use of the spin and coptering .

But why should I be so limited the use of the sword , if it should be more difficult to learn to use , make it more difficult?

 

faced with people who only come with prime bo equipped and only dedicated to rush from one base to the other ,

They talk about ability to use that, and skill required to master, but do not need

 

Why we are affected , those who decided to choose a weapon for melee damage it does , contrary to those who used it to move ?

 

Why the speed of movement, is dependent melee weapon you have equipped ? There should be one thing, independent of the other ?

I must choose move quickly  whether or do damage depending on the melee that has equipped ? And if I choose to do damage, why I see in front of such a disadvantage ? What happens to the balance that everyone should follow?

 

Or completely remove excessive impulse that causes air strike and coptering in most of the melee ?

It would make possible coptering , and spin 2 different game mechanical , without one being affected

on the other?

 

Have the same ability to move with parkour, that using coptering ?

If I have the coptering that allows me to cover half of a map, in one movement , why should I choose to use parkour ?

In the last revelation of Warframe , coming this a new faction , and the long-awaited ( by me) " Parkour 2.0"

A complete remastering of the current mechanics of movement.

In what way could solve this change , the imbalance is causing the coptering in the movement mean?

 

I would like to know the opinion of you , and someone from DE.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rockscl]

these design details are healthy to consider imo

[Phasedragon]

So you're basically saying that you shouldn't have to use the game's primary movement system if you don't want to, and for that reason it should be nerfed/removed entirely? 

 

That's like playing battlefield, saying "I don't like vehicles, nerf/remove them entirely"

 

Let's get something straight: coptering was a bug originally, but they have fixed it, made it legit, made it more stable, and given it specific, balanced rules to follow.

Edited March 27, 2015 by PhaseShifted

[rockscl]

So you're basically saying that you shouldn't have to use the game's primary movement system if you don't want to, and for that reason it should be nerfed/removed entirely? 

 

That's like playing battlefield, saying "I don't like vehicles, nerf/remove them entirely"

 

Let's get something straight: coptering was a bug originally, but they have fixed it, made it legit, made it more stable, and given it specific, balanced rules to follow.

 

i readed his text twice, and there are mostly observations and questions, barely some review on previous proposals at the end, so why dont you talk about his concerns and questions since that is the line of his topic

 

why dont you explain to us why the melee damage should remain tied to movement speed, or why we cant move as fast only with parkour since it is official, while coptering hasnt even been recognized in the codex after so much time being the main movement tool in the game

[RIOT]

TL;DR for those too lazy. (worth reading imo)

 

coptering is too rewarding for how easy it is to use.

rarely does anyone use directional melee and parkour which are official mechanics for mobility when coptering (a unintended bug that they left in because players liked it in pve) is easier, does it better and can be spammed.

 

melee weapons are useless outside of coptering

players choose melee weapons based on how well they can be used for coptering.

who ever can copter faster wins the game.

people using coptering macros

people who copter say it takes a lot of skill to master, when it really doesn't.

 

 

I hope I understood and got this right

 

I for one am FOR the removal or reducing coptering, I'd love to see more people actually use parkour and directional melee for mobility instead of copter spam.

 

lets hope parkour 2.0 really tones down coptering.

Edited March 27, 2015 by RIOTx

[Phasedragon]

i readed his text twice, and there are mostly observations and questions, barely some review on previous proposals at the end, so why dont you talk about his concerns and questions since that is the line of his topic

 

why dont you explain to us why the melee damage should remain tied to movement speed, or why we cant move as fast only with parkour since it is official, while coptering hasnt even been recognized in the codex after so much time being the main movement tool in the game

 

here's a news flash: coptering IS parkour. Coptering IS official; it has been for a very long time. And what does being in the codex have anything in the slightest to do with being official? The codex isn't for game mechanics, it's for game objects.

[Lord_Noctus]

TL;DR for those too lazy. (worth reading imo)

 

coptering is too rewarding for how easy it is to use.

rarely does anyone use directional melee and parkour which are official mechanics for mobility when coptering (a unintended bug that they left in because players liked it in pve) is easier, does it better and can be spammed.

 

melee weapons are useless outside of coptering

players choose melee weapons based on how well they can be used for coptering.

who ever can copter faster wins the game.

people using coptering macros

people who copter say it takes a lot of skill to master, when it really doesn't.

 

 

I hope I understood and got this right

 

I for one am FOR the removal or reducing coptering, I'd love to see more people actually use parkour and directional melee for mobility instead of copter spam.

 

lets hope parkour 2.0 really tones down coptering.

copter as it is in current pvp seems not bad but the air attacks have waay to much range and speed. did u try bo prime ?

[rockscl]

here's a news flash: coptering IS parkour. Coptering IS official; it has been for a very long time. And what does being in the codex have anything in the slightest to do with being official? The codex isn't for game mechanics, it's for game objects.

 

Official? i started playing yesterday, readed the whole codex  and learned how to move myself around, also i completed the tutorial, i also readed the begginers guide for pvp2.0 that was published like 1 day ago, what is this coptering thing you are talking about?, why every one looks like beyblades in the pvp maps?, i found a video on youtube but it says i have to use tipedo or zorens to copter, why cant i use any of them in pvp?

 

 

here's a news flash: coptering IS parkour

 

hey you guys at DE, i bet all my remaining plats on saying that you feel sad about this, all the work you made on tiles, environments compatible with your parkour moves, the asymetrical distances you put in the pvp cliff map so people has a long and a short route to grab energy, making the middle way a fight of sustain against pushing power with that energy vs heal spawn, yet, every one just copters and dont see all the design you put there (i may not have any plats remaining tho)

Edited March 27, 2015 by rockscl

[RIOT]

copter as it is in current pvp seems not bad but the air attacks have waay to much range and speed. did u try bo prime  ?

I have and was disgusted how easy it was to get from point A to point B.

[.Talia.]

Well they just said on the Devstream that coptering is a legit thing that won't be removed, what they will do in Parkour 2.0 is tweak either the speed or the stamina cost.

[Phasedragon]

copter as it is in current pvp seems not bad but the air attacks have waay to much range and speed. did u try bo prime ?

 

That's because coptering (run, jump, slide, melee) is determined by speed of the weapon. By taking out melee speed mods, it becomes slow and fits with the map size.

 

However, air melee distance is determined by the range of weapons (thus polearms, staffs, and whips work well). Because this aspect isn't determined by mods, bo/prime is just as effective as it is outside of pvp.

 

The bottom line is, maps need to be larger, not parkour smaller.

[rockscl]

 

 

 

 

not a single answer to OP´s observations and concerns

[.Talia.]

not a single answer to OP´s observations and concerns

 

I was simply pointing out the official response to the matter, on the most recent livestream. I have engaged in far too many discussions about this, to the point i'm not interested in discussing it any further. I'll simply accept the official decision from the devs, no point in stressing myself with personal attacks like it happened in other topics. In my opinion it is fine and should stay in the game, in my opinion it is not a problem on the PvP, that's all i have to say. I have engaged in too many discussions with both you and the OP and other users about the matter and all of us are biased towards our own solid opinions, i have nothing else to add to the discussion, if you want to read a more elaborate answer just check my Forum profile, on my recent posts related to this matter.

[Thalahssalyst]

I was simply pointing out the official response to the matter, on the most recent livestream. I have engaged in far too many discussions about this, to the point i'm not interested in discussing it any further. I'll simply accept the official decision from the devs, no point in stressing myself with personal attacks like it happened in other topics. In my opinion it is fine and should stay in the game, in my opinion it is not a problem on the PvP, that's all i have to say. I have engaged in too many discussions with both you and the OP and other users about the matter and all of us are biased towards our own solid opinions, i have nothing else to add to the discussion, if you want to read a more elaborate answer just check my Forum profile, on my recent posts related to this matter.

[.Talia.]

all accept the decision of DE, but what I am saying is the current problem, if you had actually read my content , you might understand what I'm saying .

not really see the problem ? or do not want to see?

 

I read it, and i disagree. I don't want to start another discussion with you, we went through this already in many topics even on Facebook, so let's just leave at that.

I don't like how you used one of my videos (without authorization) as an example of why coptering is bad. But its ok since you are just making a fool out of yourself because on that gif im not even coptering, i'm doing a front-flip jump connecting a wallrun and then a directional melee. What you are doing in your gif example is not even close to what i did in the gif you stole from me without my consent. 

Edited April 4, 2015 by RexSol

[Thalahssalyst]

I read it, and i disagree. I don't want to start another discussion with you, we went through this already in many topics even on Facebook, so let's just leave at that.

Facebook? Why u disagree? i want to know it thats why i made the post.

[Thalahssalyst]

here's a news flash: coptering IS parkour. Coptering IS official; it has been for a very long time. And what does being in the codex have anything in the slightest to do with being official? The codex isn't for game mechanics, it's for game objects.

You've seen what the problem is I am saying ?

[.Talia.]

Facebook? 

You are Cherum Mestizo from the Warframe PvP group, aren't you? If not i'm sorry for my mistake.

[Thalahssalyst]

You are Cherum Mestizo from the Warframe PvP group, aren't you? If not i'm sorry for my mistake.

Guat da hell with that name im not use facebook, im just on twitter D:

[.Talia.]

Guat da hell with that name im not use facebook, im just on twitter D:

 

Ok nevermind he ctrl+c ctrl+v your post in a discussion, that's why the confusion. My bad.

Edited March 27, 2015 by RexSol

[DrBorris]

That... is the best anti-copter post I have seen yet.

 

However... uh... you know what? I don't really know how to constructively respond. I am going to just completely blame the maps. In PvP, the maps are far too easy to "fly" across. Or maybe it is the objective based gameplay that makes coptering unbalanced, coptering was perfectly fine IMO in old Conclave, and it one shot then. Now that there is a point A and point B, coptering has become much more powerful.

 

And... I don't really have a solution, sorry for contributing nothing.

Edited March 27, 2015 by DrBorris

[rockscl]

 

 

Well they just said on the Devstream that coptering is a legit thing that won't be removed, what they will do in Parkour 2.0 is tweak either the speed or the stamina cost.

 

Actually, they were talking about the issue, and after recognizing that everything was open for a change about movement,  they also clarified that they werent saying that they were going to remove coptering, since that was the original question

 

edit:  i dont want to take away the speed, after all the discussion i think its a good thing to be able to move that fast, what is wrong actually imo, is how easy, independent from conditions, and free is to copter all the time, its shouldnt be that fast all the time

Edited March 28, 2015 by rockscl

[Thalahssalyst]

I really dont know what they will going to do, did they say something about the coptering on this last Devstream?

[rockscl]

I really dont know what they will going to do, did they say something about the coptering on this last Devstream?

 

they said that everything in the movement system is on the table for changes towards movement 2.0, thats all

[Rakshal]

they said that everything in the movement system is on the table for changes towards movement 2.0, thats all

They also said that coptering isn't gonna be removed though.