De And Warframe Through Time And Why I Am Dropping My Support From This Game

[CandyDragon]

Is it just me or am I seeing less volt prime avatars? I feel like some of the whales are leaving the forums. 

Its likely less that, and more to do with the volt prime package isn't as appealing.

[noveltyhero]

I am limited to mobile usage so my replying capabilities are very limited.

Whatever the case, I see a lot of familiar names here, people I've grown to known for quite some time now. It has nearly been two years guys ^^

I forgot who was the first person to say it but I 100% agree, (beautifully put into words) Warframe has lost its charm.

I guess when it started we were told this little egg will grow into a magnificent beast and that may still be the case but with 2 years passed one could expect more I guess.

Do you guys remember last year? "Warframe 2.0", this year it pretty much became "Warframe 3.0", for me there is so much uncertainty in what this game is to become that being more invested in it could just lead to disappointment.

One third party example is DayZ, we were told great things, two years went by and (for me anyway) the mod(s) is still better.

DE follow in the footsteps of games like 7 Days to Die, Don't Starve and Prison Architect.

Plan what you want to achieve, then achieve it. In a stream you said updates aren't really planned too much before hand and I think that is where Warframe is at its lowest, the overall image just doesn't come together.

i.e Melee 2.0 is interesting but doesn't work or flow with the movement system.

It is interesting reading people's views on Warframes current general standing.

[dashashou]

Do you guys remember last year? "Warframe 2.0", this year it pretty much became "Warframe 3.0", for me there is so much uncertainty in what this game is to become that being more invested in it could just lead to disappointment.

 

 

hmm i have to strongly disagree with view of uncertainty , if anything the last year that DE has more and mroe pushed "baby sitting"  stand in place maps /objectives , more and more dilution , and more and more they have gone from designing for fun,  to designing time sinks to burn players time / plat

 

a year ago combo weapons would have been anemia to DE now they just feel  like another time / resource sink among many   

 

now at best there's a cycle of long  droughts and small windows of  credits / resources  

 

and now their making frost / reaper / latron primes , all veteran exclusive 

[Jowain]

Completely agree with noveltyhero and it's a shame to see you leave, but I understand. I left for a while and came back to play with friends, as this game still holds a place in my heart.

 

That said, the game itself has really done it's best to drive me to insanity, with the insane grindwall for the "new shiny loot" that just seems to have been made on purpose just to force players to A) Buy Prime Access or B) Negotiate with extremly greedy players over the price for a Chassis, which of course wants Platinum that you, of course, have to buy.

 

After having run several hours in Tower III Survival and getting mostly Fang Prime parts, Fusion Cores and Forma (with the occasional Helmet before the game, convinently, decides to crash/lose connection).

No one minds a little bit of grinding, but when forced to do it for so many times because you want that particular item it just sucks all the enjoyment out of it.

 

It's definitely the attitude of the developers that is the most annoying, "We'll add this at some point, we'll add that at some point" and sure they add some of what they say, but it's usually very bleak and piece by piece.

 

I'm among those that want a story to follow, some actual lore to collect; Later later later later later, piece by piece, piece by piece, piece by piece.

I don't believe Simaris counts as our saviour in this, as getting these scans involves MORE grinding and how do we know that we get what we think we're getting (a long nice lore page on the Grineer Trooper, not just more stats), but this remains to be seen (hope I'm wrong).

For once I just wish they could release a massive update, one that adds tons of new content, at least one new location with enemies, lore and a story with actual cutscenes.

Vor's Prize was excellent showcase of what they can do and it's such a rotten shame that they haven't done this with other bosses.

 

It's easy to get burned out on this, half the time you find more things to be annoyed by than things you actually like.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Jowain92

[BETAOPTICS]

You know what, to be honest I feel pretty much the same. Now granted time wears you down as a human being but I find myself remembering the good old days of Warframe back when I started playing this 2-years ago and back then it was so interesting. It felt like a very different game that had a good balance on everything from getting new stuff, from leveling up that stuff, from re-visiting the older content where you were not god among men.

There was interesting atmospheric areas that I have never seen before for example do you remember what it was originally like to fight infested in those dark maps, pretty much solely relying on your flashlight? Now that was fun and it added a whole new sort of experience to the game for you as a player that we unfortunately do not see anymore.

The gameplay was fun too as you needed to have a good balance between powers and gun play and quite recently I have found myself enjoying not min/maxing my builds in ability heavy oriented way, rather building them like I originally would and what gives a good balance between gunplay, swordplay and ability play. Nothing too shabby but more to the point, extremely refreshing and fun again.

I remember how it was like when I started when my day in Warframe started up with a good feeling of having fun and enjoying again and reading trough your original post made me realize that actually I am not really having that much fun anymore as I am just grinding the endless grind of obtaining enough resources to get a single mod finally leveled up while 100 more of them are waiting down the line.

At least originally there were few very basic mods and while I appreciate variety, the scaling has gone off the roof with everything to the point where it now feels like if I want to really ever enjoy the game and relax, I have to work trough hours on end as a job to get anything done anymore. Maybe I should just drop it and get what I want when I want and enjoy the game as it is. First world problems.

There is so much to be said about this and while I probably keep playing this game because to be honest, I am not very fond of any other game that comes out today either and feels like Warframe is at least decent but I will however say that the original post resonated deeply with me in its message. I miss having fun and gradually progressing while enjoying every bit of it. Wish I could feel that again but I do not.

TL;DR One day I will keep looking back all of this and doing the same as you OP which is: " pulling the plugs from the wall and shutting down the place " - figuratively speaking. Sure I'll admit it that this game has been one of those games I have really enjoyed and that is really rare so don't you go on thinking I am ungrateful because there is only Borderlands 1, Halo CE and whatnot that has really given me the same sort of enjoyment feeling I have had with Warframe. But I keep wondering how long does it take for me to feel just as beaten down as you and so many veterans are already.

TL;DR2 And I got a lot of respect to every and each of the old farts in Warframe that I have gotten the pleasure to know and/or have stuck around for so long time. I do also remember the good ol' days and oh boy were those times. And seeing many of the old names re-appearing here and remembering those that left for one reason or another just makes me miss the times of the old days. Oh well, such is the way of life. Nothing good lasts forever and my time will come sooner or later as well.

So I shall rise my hat and greet thy a good farewell. See you on the other side where the grass is greener and the sun is bright.

Edited March 31, 2015 by BETAOPTICS

[Hueminator]

Applies to Hydroid too, as a water theme'd frame he could've looked more interesting and resemble body parts of fish or sirenes but w/e :/

The fish part is for Rhino

[AM-Bunny]

DE has no idea what they are doing, they have no idea what tier each frame/item is, they have no idea what is to become of their content because they set no goals for it to begin with. However, what irritates me more is how much we (the community in general) stick by their mistakes, tell them how to fix it and they don't fix it.

 

I'll agree with this statement. Time after time, there's something new implemented into the game that feels like it was put in just because a dev said "wouldn't this be cool" and then just plopped it in. After this, the idea never gets re-visited, re-worked, or anything, even if it clashes with future ideas.

 

The devs are always trying to move onto the next thing, without taking any time at all to look back on what they've done, or look forward at what they want to accomplish long term. It's really frustrating for me.

[manub]

About the 2 1st issues:

1- balance is hard, it s much of an artisanal process as what is balanced to a player is over/underpowered to another, just read the current & past synoid gammacor threads

2- DE does employ artists & testers & might rightfully have their own ideas about what s good. You may not like the result but can t possibly deny them that, otherwise the game wouldn t even exist

The grind: i agree, oh god do i agree. This was always a problem but it has worsened with time & new ressources & parts. I pray each update that something will be done

All in all, much of your points are pretty valid, but i ll still stick with the game & DE: they do try & do listen to the community. Not perfectly but won t shoot them for that

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

About the 2 1st issues:

1- balance is hard, it s much of an artisanal process as what is balanced to a player is over/underpowered to another, just read the current & past synoid gammacor threads

 

1. Balance is really hard if you don't bother making changes more than once every two months.

[Centias]

At this point, I feel like I'm just logging in for the login reward, bashing my head against the RNG wall for a few runs trying to finish a prime item here or there, and keeping myself occupied with other games unless friends want to play, while waiting for Parkour 2.0 and the Sentients.

 

I keep hoping they'll finally fix some of the long-standing balance issues, with reserved nerfs in select cases of outliers, and reasonable buffs where some options are lagging behind. Shotguns and Snipers are still waiting on buffs they've needed for a long time now, Ember and Nekros still seem to be pretty far behind the rest of the pack even after getting buffs, Excalibur is getting nerfs basically just for being flavor of the month when he was actually pretty widely considered to be worse than most frames. Saryn's meta playstyle is basically out of control Miasma spam built around broken backwards/double scaling with corrupted mods when the rest of her toolkit mostly goes ignored, so she could really use a good look under the microscope. Frost is in demand as always for Defense but the rest of his toolkit is entirely neglected because all that seems to matter is he has one good skill for one game mode. I still find it completely insulting that Desecrate, Psychic Bolts, and Rift Surge still exist in their current format. Change Desecrate to something completely different already and then just increase drops to compensate (50% increase in mod/resource drops and 100% increase in credit drops). Time after time a new weapon gets released, and ends up being not even half as good as it should be. I'm looking at you, Panthera. Melee channeling mods are still mostly useless and there are still no melee weapons built with a focus on strong melee channeling. Blocking still scales entirely awkwardly with damage; at low level it's godly but unnecessary, at high level it's useless when it should be a life-saver. Too many of these things that needed improvement have been give small changes that sort of got them halfway to where they needed to be, then never got double-checked to see if it was enough. And usually it wasn't.

 

I keep hoping they'll fix some of the nonsense issues that have gone on way too long, that seem so glaringly obvious but somehow continue to be ignored. Limbo's Rift Plane still blocks item pickups when players have long requested for this to be changed, Archwing still has a ridiculous instant-death collision issue with melee attacking enemies near terrain. It's still possible to fall through the world in many places and it still forces you to waste a revive just to gamble and hope you actually end up back on the map. It's been what, two years? Time for that to change already. I'm glad they finally fixed the ragdoll bug, but how long did that take, nearly a year? Pause and hold melee combos are still a thing, which doesn't make sense at all with the pace of this game.

 

I keep hoping they'll fix some of the mission/reward system of this game. Shift the focus away from all these endless modes, they get entirely sickening to play all the time just to be able to get at all worthwhile rewards. Spy 2.0 was a very good start, very fun with good rewards. Move forma out to the star chart on non-endless missions like Sabotage, so min-maxing players looking to get the most out of their equipment can actually play some of those nodes and help other players progress their way to later planets. Make them fully built, no more forma blueprints needing neurodes. Move orokin cells out of void mission rewards, because the fact that they are a possible reward is frankly friggin' nonsense. They should drop from the enemies in the void, not replace actual rewards. Make better fusion cores more plentiful and move them out of the tables too, so no matter where you are playing or what the mission type is, you can always get plenty of them. Then if we just remove useless credit cache and void key rewards from the void tables, we can finally get them stripped down to just what they should be: only prime parts. And we can spread them out more, and put older items in the lower teirs where the keys and credits came out or into the Derelict, no need to completely remove them. You may not be getting the prime part you want, but at least you know you won't be getting completely robbed by RNG when you use a key only to get a different key back or your 80th forma. You can at least trade the part, or sell it.

 

I still enjoy playing the game, but I tend to limit how much I play it because every road tends to lead to some level of disappointment, so like many in this thread have said, I am looking at other games coming out in the near future. I'm glad to see Killing Floor 2 mentioned so much, I'm very excited about that one. Also glad to see GTA5 is finally working its way onto PC. If any players are around GMT-6 and would like another friend or small group to play those games with when they come out, feel free to leave me a message.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Centias

[manub]

1. Balance is really hard if you don't bother making changes more than once every two months.

Now this is unfair, DE gives us hotfixes every week, the number of things to fix is just huge they can t do everything at once

[Bibliothekar]

Now this is unfair, DE gives us hotfixes every week, the number of things to fix is just huge they can t do everything at once

Hotfixes != balancing. While they do fix bugs big and small as quickly as they can, they hardly ever change e.g. the damage an ability does or it's duration. It takes months and months of people complaining on the forums and making suggestions until they finally decide to look at a frame again. And then they only do it one frame at a time, while another frame with almost the same ability remains untouched and has to wait for several months to get the same change.

They really do need a dedicated team that does nothing but looking at frames and weapons over and over again, changing damage numbers and other stats and check how it affects the game. Does it make a frame almost useless if an ability suddenly does 10 damage less at base level? How does it affect the average player's build if an ability lasts just two seconds longer? Do you suddenly end up with an unkillable enemy if you increase a mini-gunners armour by 20 points or does it just make them last just the right amount of time longer to make them more interesting? What happens to level 50 enemies if you change the third decimal of the multiplier in the armour calculation formula?

Right now, Scott says "yeah, I'm looking at $frame again" on devstream maybe once each quarter. But you can't do balancing like that, it has to be a continuous process. You have to push out that kind of change every week instead of just with the major (x.0, x.5) updates. So if it turns out that you accidentally turned Rhino into a

on legs, you can reverse that change a week later and bring him back in line again. Edited April 2, 2015 by Bibliothekar

[Adidasprime]

I suspect I'm not the only one here who misses the weekly ME3 MP balance changes.

 

But yeah, the balance side of things is definitely one of the biggest issues (in my book) that needs more attention. It takes so long for even a small amount of items to get a revisit.

[CandyDragon]

I suspect I'm not the only one here who misses the weekly ME3 MP balance changes.

 

But yeah, the balance side of things is definitely one of the biggest issues (in my book) that needs more attention. It takes so long for even a small amount of items to get a revisit.

The only reason I came back to warframe was because bioware decided to kill off ME3 support for multiplayer and left it dead in the water weeks after a big update.

[optyk]

Balance issues

You know all these balancing issues we have? They were practically non-existent, because there wasn't anything OP, the game constantly felt like it scaled with you, as you got more mods you became more powerful but so did the enemies which felt really nice.

That is how a lot of MMOs feel like, you go back to help level 1 players and you are a god, at that tier. Now it became a game of "Am I or am I not?" ( a god), because it is very rare that you have to plan something with your team. You go out of cover you get one shot'ed regardless of strength or you go out of cover and you can stay AFK, have a coffee come back and your character is still standing.

 

We also didn't have energy restores and abilities weren't overpowered because of that, energy was more rare and we didn't one hit kill everything with our weapons. Of course time passed and we became more and more reliant on these "strategies", so obviously the community would use these. Can you blame the people who made 50 spreadsheets for maximum effectiveness in combat or DE who consistently ignored this growing issue?

 

My point is, if DE wants complete balance, they need to dedicate a whole major update for it, strip everything down and build it back up with strong foundations as they are doing with PVP.

 

 

Design

There are hundreds, thousands of design ideas on "Fan Concepts" for frames that not only fit within the design aesthetics of the game but also make sense mechanically. The dragon frame yes it has a cool twist of "color changes damage type" but the community made design was 100x more interesting. The initial anteater design for Chroma was somewhat odd, but now it is changed and it looks just like Hydroid, nothing unique added to it. Just looks like a load of rubber clutter dangling along the model.

Sorry to be so blunt, but it is true, one look at the fan concepts section and Chroma could've turned out much better in design.

EDIT: I feel like I needed to clarify this, Hydroid does not look like Chroma, but both look like they've had no direction in body design.

 

Weapon design however has improved heavily and they are certainly aesthetically pleasing, too bad they are let down on the statistical side. Most of the community has been using the exact same weapon/loadout for over a year.

 

Level design has also gotten much better so kudos to you guys ^^

 

 

The Grind

dum dum duuuuum

 

Yes the grind, it had to come up at some point. Initially me and my friends liked Warframe because you could play it as a casual player or hardcore no life it and still feel like you've progressed and that you're part of the Warframe universe, now however you miss the initial grind fest season for a specific item and good luck to you solo buddy. Try getting Mesa right now, it is not very pleasant. Just like with Hydroid, locking these behind time wasting content is just irritating, if the content was hard then at least it would be our fault but it isn't.

 

Warframe was always grindy, even when it began. But then you also had a smaller goal and you and your friends could set to it 2-3 hours and get it done. Now however it feels like when you've beaten one grind wall another one pops up, so what's the point?

 

Sorry, DE, I've been playing since the day you've opened up on Steam and this game feels grindier than Runescape, something that actually requires you to try and achieve. Problem is, Warframe is not open world so the grind feels much worse because every 15min when you finish your mission to restart it deja vu comes and slaps you in the face.

 

Why is this grind so bad? DE has no idea what they are doing, they have no idea what tier each frame/item is, they have no idea what is to become of their content because they set no goals for it to begin with. However, what irritates me more is how much we (the community in general) stick by their mistakes, tell them how to fix it and they don't fix it.

 

 

 

In conclusion

 

Warfarme has so many issues it is not even funny anymore. Don't get me wrong, I do not regret my time playing Warframe. Fun game but moreover great community, but that is what irks me, the community is so damn good that DE is slowly taking advantage of this. I understand making a game is hard, but the forums here tell you step by step what to do and you still can't do it? Sorry DE, bye bye.

 

Maybe your next game is better, or maybe not. Maybe I will come back some time or maybe I won't but for now, it is more worth it for me to get my games from Humble Bundle or play other F2Ps than to feel like I am working when playing games.

 

 

Again, this is all my personal opinion and feel free to ask any questions or say your views. I will stick around a few days to read any replies but after that adios.

 

Have a wonderful day! :)

 

I'm unsure if you're familiar with this all, but from some of your questions it does not seem you are. A very large portion of gamers today are not familiar with the Free To Play business end model. They may understand the consumer end of it and even then, probably not. You will see lots of players claim that "X" game "Gets F2P right" or "Does it right", when actually they(F2P games) all do it "Right". Some may have a different spin on how they do it, but it's all the same no matter the F2P title. One of the largest culprits is the convoluted title itself FREE to play and the general lack of knowledge on the gamers end of things.

 

I'll explain a little and all of this info is easily accessible and in no way 'secret' or conspiracy. Gamers just need to keep calm and understand. Some of its quite obvious as well. I will say that DE knows exactly what its doing in the F2P model and other companies would have no problem agreeing to that.

 

This is a long read

 

Concerning balance issues and design:

 

"Getting gameplay and monetization right straight off is a near impossible task, but luckily, digital distribution means you don’t just have just one shot, as your game is always updatable.

 

This eternal beta state means that you can constantly change and tweak, but more than this, by tracking the action of players, you can ensure that the changes you make are backed by data. Analytics and live updating allows you to apply the scientific method to build understanding around your game: Create a hypothesis, test, collect results, interpret results, and make an appropriate change.

 

By applying this process rigorously and correctly, you can evolve an experience around your players. You can even apply it to your marketing process."

 

Yes, developers do track our gameplay, look at our inventory etc... -YES we are 'data points'. It's the real terms of the business and it's reality.

 

"There’s no need to make the level grind balanced — not when players can buy 50% Bonus XP for $4.99. Are current weapons underpowered? Sell HyperPower Ammunition, or screen-clearing bombs for just 10 cents a shot."

 

"Hit people once they’re engrossed, then hit them again a little farther on. The report recommends introducing products that cost more than $50 in game, because while only a tiny fraction of people buy them, they account for a whopping 9% of total revenue."

 

The goal is to keep you playing and interested and leads into The Grind.

 

 

Concerning "The Grind":

 

If you are a true FREE player, it's never going to go away -ever. It's the price you pay for playing for free and really what you're doing is providing the F2P company/game a playerbase they normally would not have if they had a monthly fee or a initial purchase price. It is however, able to be reduced by Convenience Items -more on that later.

 

For instance, your example of how goals used to be obtainable in the earlier stages of Warframe make sense, but now that its bigger, it has to balance Paying Players vs Free Players and use a conversion rate in an attempt to keep it all in check.

 

"Gameplay: Core loops in to goals systems

 

At the heart of any game is a set of infinitely repeatable actions known as a core loop. These are the things players do over and over, keeping them engaged in the short term across a game session. In FarmVille, for example, this is plant a crop, wait, harvest, and then get a virtual currency reward.

 

While core loops keep players engaged minute-to-minute you really want players to play over multiple session for months, if not years. Therefore, you need goals for your players, along with ways of setting them and rewards once the goals met. I call these goal systems and include things such as collections, levels, and story. Strong goal systems lead to dedicated players and long terms fans, lack of compelling goal systems lead to players drifting off to other titles. Once engaged, you can then begin thinking about making money from your players."

 

 

 

For an example, let's presume that 5% of PC players are paying players and that 95% are Free Players. The Paying Players inject Premium Currency into the Free Playerbase -who in turns re-injects it into the other Free Players.

 

"So whats the use of the other 95% of the people who arent paying anything to play the game? They themselves are actually a product; one the game maker is selling to the paying player base. Keeping all involved parties satisfied.

 

Usually, what drives people to play multiplayer games are one of two things:

 

To have a wide competitive experience:

With a far larger pool of players provided by the low barrier to entry on the game, the paying player is more likely to find teammates/opponents within his or her skill range and is therefore more likely to be satisfied by the game and continue playing (and purchasing micro-transactions).

 

Playing with friends:

Many players want to spend online play time with friends. However, it's difficult to get online friends corralled together, and this is doubly difficult when said friends have to pay their way into a game. When the game is free, it's much easier to get a critical mass of people to give it a try.

 

THE COSTS TO PLAYERS:

So if a player tries out a free-to-play game and they don't pay micro-transactions, is the experience free? Well, not quite. As stated above, players who aren't paying aren't really customers anymore, they're contractors employed by the game company to provide teammates/opponents for the paying players. As such the developers want to keep these types of players in the game as long as possible. This means that it often takes much longer to achieve things as a free player than it would in a paying game or than it would for a paying player in the same game."

 

"Much of marketing focuses on volume: The sheer numbers of players are important, but one highly engaged and spending player is better than a hundred that churn through in a matter of hours."

 

An example is Superfan spends $100 on an item. It will take 100 Free Players to spend $1 to match that. The need for a larger playerbase growth is dearly needed - AKA cross platform games (PC, MAC, Consoles).

 

One could even call Free Players 'Human NPCs". Do remember, that while you may not be a Paying Customer, you're providing the developers a body and a playerbase for free to keep the Paying Customers around and spending their money -one could say that Free Players might have a stronger 'voice' in video games, but its hard to argue with the Dollar.

 

 

On to Convenience Items:

 

"Monetization: The four Cs

 

If your players are happy and engaged, they reward you with their cash, but only if your game offers something they see value in. The things players buy in a game, even if it’s through a proxy such as virtual currency, belong to one or more of the four archetypes:

 

Content. Content, such as level or expansion packs, are simply more of the game, offered for players that want to explore more. They’re some of the weakest monetization points owing to the fact that they are durable (nonrepeatable purchases) and something some games offer for free in order to retain players.

 

Convenience. Getting something easier or quicker in the game is a form of convenience. Players with more money than time often make a value judgment in favor of paying to make the time they spend in the game more enjoyable. Convenience purchases are strongly compelling and often consumable, meaning they can be bought over and over.

 

Customization. Certain player types like to use their presence in a game world as a form of self-expression and so customize their avatars. Customization creates a strong emotional desire, making it a common and successful monetization point.

 

Competitive advantage. Equally strong emotionally is the will to win. Very few successful F2P games enable players to straight-up buy advantage, because it’s hard to stop it from disrupting a game’s balance and driving away nonpayers, but they do exist. More commonly, these are a form of convenience.

 

To ensure success you need to check that your purchases fits with one or more of these C's and that you cover at least two in your game, else you risk not offering compelling purchases"

 

 

 

"The worst part of all this, though, is that such brittle reliance on a handful of people means that game developers have very limited freedom to explore or innovate within a model. If your revenue stream depends on a fraction of your players, then the desires of those players have to be catered to — even if they aren’t the group you intended to attract or push for game elements that you, the designer, don’t find attractive. The fire-and-forget mentality makes it more difficult to create long-term value around a game or IP — after all, who can risk innovating on a known formula when those innovations might damage the business model?"

 

 

With Warframe, I'd have to say it caters to the Convenience and Customization archetypes the most. Think that the majority of players here would agree. Hopefully the above info provided some insight on how it all works and helps players understand why certain things happen the way they do in F2P games. Maybe now players will understand why we get 20 - 75% plat coupons -were always gonna get one if we dont log in after a week. Now understand why nearly everything is earnable in the game -its not because the game is 'friendly', we know that now. It's to be expected, it's not rocket science. Some are comfortable spending a total of $15 a month in small bursts rather than all at once for Premium Access. Some are comfortable Impulse Spending rather than spending $60 on a complete released game. I'd say most of the new generation of younger gamers just have a DGAF attitude and are simply indifferent; if I were a developer, I'd take advantage of that attitude all day if the player was willing -and most are.

 

Even the players that claim "I've never spent a dime on a F2P game and I have all the stuffs and things LEL". Sorry my friend, you provided a free playerbase to the game, something the dev's cannot code -and thats who they are catering to, the Paying Customers. What you did was work for free, kept the devs happy and the Paying Customers happy and not even realize it.

 

One thing that can alleviate The Grind in Warframe is Premium Time packages that most other F2P titles offer. WF applies The Grind to everyone -paying and non paying and it stinks honestly. I'm not sure why they dont offer a Premium Time package - it might skew the whole model they use or they might not have the number of paying customers to support that. For example, it will make paying customers happy and stick around, but the free customers might start to dwindle, and if theres no free customers, theres no F2P game to play.

 

Best thing to do when you're unhappy with a F2P title is to not play it at all in any fashion and do not advertise for it by word of mouth. Simply not buying Premium time or currency wont cut it, because if you play for free, you're actually still supporting the game and other players -all on your own dime and time.

 

Good luck in your future adventures!

[DivisionByZero]

Been playing this game since open beta day one, and while there are points in this post that agree on i have to say i would probably take it more seriously if you didnt start writing things like "DE has no idea about x/y thing" and similar.

Im hardly a white knight(i do have my fair share of deep dark secrets) but imo most of the problems with warframe go into the rapidly growing community.

Yes DE makes mistakes no doubt about it, but most of the times its like this:

CM (community): DE FIX THIS PLOX!

DE: sure (de fixes it according to how they want)

CM: NONONO NOT LIKE THAT (insert random rage comment)! Fix it like this.

DE: might as well try (DE fixes again)

CM: god "#$%&/ DE you fail again. I quit etc, etc.

Ya cant please everyone, its why we are where we are.

On aggregate, it just seems like the community is against any solution.

I recently posted a suggestion on splitting Warframe into casual and hardcore difficulties and most of the replies were "no one wants to split the community".

WHY are so many people against "splitting the community"? The community is already split on the forums and it's been that way for at least a year, that's why there's so much argument and nothing ever gets fixed. The natural solution is to get rid of this "one size fits all" garbage that turns into "one size fits none" in practice. Just split the community. The casuals and hardcores are never going to stop arguing otherwise.

[(PSN)Hollow118]

Man sucks to see you go novelty :/

This is becoming a looming problem. Too many vets and well known members throughout the community are leaving the game. I completely agree with the points members like you novetly bring up. You do it in a respectful manner. But these are issues I have seen time and time again, and it's really starting to worry me about the future of this game. The community (or at least a good portion of it) has been BEGGING DE to allocate a major update to just balances, fixes, reworks, etc.

Ages ago when I made such a thread, I was met with replies from players saying the game would be too boring and that they need the new content and all that. That frustrated me, to know there are players out there that are well aware of the games glaring faults, but will take consistent bandaid content to temporarily mask the wound seeping with problems rather than tell DE collectively to tear off the bandaids and delve into the wound, and root out the central problems.

In any case, I hope you return in due time, as much as I hope DE fixes the issues causing players to walk away.

Take care in your endeavors Tenno.

[noveltyhero]

I'm unsure if you're familiar with this all, but from some of your questions it does not seem you are. A very large portion of gamers today are not familiar with the Free To Play business end model. They may understand the consumer end of it and even then, probably not. You will see lots of players claim that "X" game "Gets F2P right" or "Does it right", when actually they(F2P games) all do it "Right". Some may have a different spin on how they do it, but it's all the same no matter the F2P title. One of the largest culprits is the convoluted title itself FREE to play and the general lack of knowledge on the gamers end of things.

I'll explain a little and all of this info is easily accessible and in no way 'secret' or conspiracy. Gamers just need to keep calm and understand. Some of its quite obvious as well. I will say that DE knows exactly what its doing in the F2P model and other companies would have no problem agreeing to that.

This is a long read

Concerning balance issues and design:

"Getting gameplay and monetization right straight off is a near impossible task, but luckily, digital distribution means you don’t just have just one shot, as your game is always updatable.

This eternal beta state means that you can constantly change and tweak, but more than this, by tracking the action of players, you can ensure that the changes you make are backed by data. Analytics and live updating allows you to apply the scientific method to build understanding around your game: Create a hypothesis, test, collect results, interpret results, and make an appropriate change.

By applying this process rigorously and correctly, you can evolve an experience around your players. You can even apply it to your marketing process."

Yes, developers do track our gameplay, look at our inventory etc... -YES we are 'data points'. It's the real terms of the business and it's reality.

"There’s no need to make the level grind balanced — not when players can buy 50% Bonus XP for $4.99. Are current weapons underpowered? Sell HyperPower Ammunition, or screen-clearing bombs for just 10 cents a shot."

"Hit people once they’re engrossed, then hit them again a little farther on. The report recommends introducing products that cost more than $50 in game, because while only a tiny fraction of people buy them, they account for a whopping 9% of total revenue."

The goal is to keep you playing and interested and leads into The Grind.

Concerning "The Grind":

If you are a true FREE player, it's never going to go away -ever. It's the price you pay for playing for free and really what you're doing is providing the F2P company/game a playerbase they normally would not have if they had a monthly fee or a initial purchase price. It is however, able to be reduced by Convenience Items -more on that later.

For instance, your example of how goals used to be obtainable in the earlier stages of Warframe make sense, but now that its bigger, it has to balance Paying Players vs Free Players and use a conversion rate in an attempt to keep it all in check.

"Gameplay: Core loops in to goals systems

At the heart of any game is a set of infinitely repeatable actions known as a core loop. These are the things players do over and over, keeping them engaged in the short term across a game session. In FarmVille, for example, this is plant a crop, wait, harvest, and then get a virtual currency reward.

While core loops keep players engaged minute-to-minute you really want players to play over multiple session for months, if not years. Therefore, you need goals for your players, along with ways of setting them and rewards once the goals met. I call these goal systems and include things such as collections, levels, and story. Strong goal systems lead to dedicated players and long terms fans, lack of compelling goal systems lead to players drifting off to other titles. Once engaged, you can then begin thinking about making money from your players."

For an example, let's presume that 5% of PC players are paying players and that 95% are Free Players. The Paying Players inject Premium Currency into the Free Playerbase -who in turns re-injects it into the other Free Players.

"So whats the use of the other 95% of the people who arent paying anything to play the game? They themselves are actually a product; one the game maker is selling to the paying player base. Keeping all involved parties satisfied.

Usually, what drives people to play multiplayer games are one of two things:

To have a wide competitive experience:

With a far larger pool of players provided by the low barrier to entry on the game, the paying player is more likely to find teammates/opponents within his or her skill range and is therefore more likely to be satisfied by the game and continue playing (and purchasing micro-transactions).

Playing with friends:

Many players want to spend online play time with friends. However, it's difficult to get online friends corralled together, and this is doubly difficult when said friends have to pay their way into a game. When the game is free, it's much easier to get a critical mass of people to give it a try.

THE COSTS TO PLAYERS:

So if a player tries out a free-to-play game and they don't pay micro-transactions, is the experience free? Well, not quite. As stated above, players who aren't paying aren't really customers anymore, they're contractors employed by the game company to provide teammates/opponents for the paying players. As such the developers want to keep these types of players in the game as long as possible. This means that it often takes much longer to achieve things as a free player than it would in a paying game or than it would for a paying player in the same game."

"Much of marketing focuses on volume: The sheer numbers of players are important, but one highly engaged and spending player is better than a hundred that churn through in a matter of hours."

An example is Superfan spends $100 on an item. It will take 100 Free Players to spend $1 to match that. The need for a larger playerbase growth is dearly needed - AKA cross platform games (PC, MAC, Consoles).

One could even call Free Players 'Human NPCs". Do remember, that while you may not be a Paying Customer, you're providing the developers a body and a playerbase for free to keep the Paying Customers around and spending their money -one could say that Free Players might have a stronger 'voice' in video games, but its hard to argue with the Dollar.

On to Convenience Items:

"Monetization: The four Cs

If your players are happy and engaged, they reward you with their cash, but only if your game offers something they see value in. The things players buy in a game, even if it’s through a proxy such as virtual currency, belong to one or more of the four archetypes:

Content. Content, such as level or expansion packs, are simply more of the game, offered for players that want to explore more. They’re some of the weakest monetization points owing to the fact that they are durable (nonrepeatable purchases) and something some games offer for free in order to retain players.

Convenience. Getting something easier or quicker in the game is a form of convenience. Players with more money than time often make a value judgment in favor of paying to make the time they spend in the game more enjoyable. Convenience purchases are strongly compelling and often consumable, meaning they can be bought over and over.

Customization. Certain player types like to use their presence in a game world as a form of self-expression and so customize their avatars. Customization creates a strong emotional desire, making it a common and successful monetization point.

Competitive advantage. Equally strong emotionally is the will to win. Very few successful F2P games enable players to straight-up buy advantage, because it’s hard to stop it from disrupting a game’s balance and driving away nonpayers, but they do exist. More commonly, these are a form of convenience.

To ensure success you need to check that your purchases fits with one or more of these C's and that you cover at least two in your game, else you risk not offering compelling purchases"

"The worst part of all this, though, is that such brittle reliance on a handful of people means that game developers have very limited freedom to explore or innovate within a model. If your revenue stream depends on a fraction of your players, then the desires of those players have to be catered to — even if they aren’t the group you intended to attract or push for game elements that you, the designer, don’t find attractive. The fire-and-forget mentality makes it more difficult to create long-term value around a game or IP — after all, who can risk innovating on a known formula when those innovations might damage the business model?"

With Warframe, I'd have to say it caters to the Convenience and Customization archetypes the most. Think that the majority of players here would agree. Hopefully the above info provided some insight on how it all works and helps players understand why certain things happen the way they do in F2P games. Maybe now players will understand why we get 20 - 75% plat coupons -were always gonna get one if we dont log in after a week. Now understand why nearly everything is earnable in the game -its not because the game is 'friendly', we know that now. It's to be expected, it's not rocket science. Some are comfortable spending a total of $15 a month in small bursts rather than all at once for Premium Access. Some are comfortable Impulse Spending rather than spending $60 on a complete released game. I'd say most of the new generation of younger gamers just have a DGAF attitude and are simply indifferent; if I were a developer, I'd take advantage of that attitude all day if the player was willing -and most are.

Even the players that claim "I've never spent a dime on a F2P game and I have all the stuffs and things LEL". Sorry my friend, you provided a free playerbase to the game, something the dev's cannot code -and thats who they are catering to, the Paying Customers. What you did was work for free, kept the devs happy and the Paying Customers happy and not even realize it.

One thing that can alleviate The Grind in Warframe is Premium Time packages that most other F2P titles offer. WF applies The Grind to everyone -paying and non paying and it stinks honestly. I'm not sure why they dont offer a Premium Time package - it might skew the whole model they use or they might not have the number of paying customers to support that. For example, it will make paying customers happy and stick around, but the free customers might start to dwindle, and if theres no free customers, theres no F2P game to play.

Best thing to do when you're unhappy with a F2P title is to not play it at all in any fashion and do not advertise for it by word of mouth. Simply not buying Premium time or currency wont cut it, because if you play for free, you're actually still supporting the game and other players -all on your own dime and time.

Good luck in your future adventures!

I am very aware of the F2P model and that is not the problem for me. It can be free to play and still a great game, hence possibilities of games like DCUO, DotA 2, PS2 and many others.

In example of DotA 2, it is heavily focused on cosmetics with no pay to win, as is Warframe but the game's balancing is constantly looked at (yes there are some broken heroes, no game is perfect).

Planetside 2 comes closer to Warframe due to the grind. That game is still balanced and has no pay to win due to how some weapons are hard to use and only thing you can do is buy skins or get the same weapon faster. The grind is quite big but you never feel left behind because if skillful enough you can make do. (i.e starter sniper for Vanu is really bad, however it is still my best weapon statistically)

Warframe is kind of veering off, so many cool weapons but not much uniqueness to them statistically, they seem stick around an area of stats for all weapons and not try new things (like a melee weapon with innate lifesteal).

My point is, Warframe is getting so much content with little polish, from business perspective this works yes but from my perspective it isn't enough. F2P can be amazing and DE certainly has done it right as a first time company but I just feel like they stopped 'really' caring for their game. Who knows, time will show the true layers of the company and game.

-written on phone, hope I didn't go off on tangent or something xD

[noveltyhero]

On aggregate, it just seems like the community is against any solution.

I recently posted a suggestion on splitting Warframe into casual and hardcore difficulties and most of the replies were "no one wants to split the community".

WHY are so many people against "splitting the community"? The community is already split on the forums and it's been that way for at least a year, that's why there's so much argument and nothing ever gets fixed. The natural solution is to get rid of this "one size fits all" garbage that turns into "one size fits none" in practice. Just split the community. The casuals and hardcores are never going to stop arguing otherwise.

I fully agree, but the thing is (I think I already mentioned this) Warframe used to be great for both parties, but due to how new shinies are always broken (usually, for money) and older stuff gets nerfed casual players feel a lot of pressure behind this. I felt like that 1 or so months ago when I heavily decreased time on WF, you come back and instead of this feeling of "woah so much to do!" that some early access games give, you tend to feel like "so wait, I have to grind that other thing to grind the thing I want?".

May not always be the case but once you get back into the grind you are quickly reminded why you left or stopped playing for a while :/

[noveltyhero]

For me the lack of skill required just got annoying, theres a certain level where you simply cannot pass the grind wall without broken loadout. I tried time and time again, you (under loaded for more difficulty) run around shooting, them hide behind some big wall, come up on other side to surprise them ohh wait the enemy already has target on you and one hit kill you out of nowhere. Or the stunlocks. Or the boring powerful weapons that require no skill. For me most (good) skillful weapon was Paris (P) and I had to make shooting rules to make it harder (like not shooting when standing still, only weakpoints etc.). Balancing is overlooked in this department too, you can have a very powerful weapon but give it small mag size or give it high recoil or low fire rate. For some there is no need to nerf the damage.

Overall the one hit kills just annoyed the hell out of me, in multiplayer games thats fine I know it was somebody's luck or skill (or hacker sometimes ^^) not poorly programmed AI.

Warframe has a long road ahead of it and reason why I left (or leaving) is that it just feels like any feedback me or the community gives is overlooked entirely. I hope the devs take a look at this because WF is a nice piece of work with a lot og potential.

[RadioLarity]

I know what you're talking about man and I truly understand you. Warframe has become a pain in the ! recently. DE aren't listening to community at all, while all the people are saying "oh yes, they do". If yes, then what the hell happened with our dragon frame damnit?
DE claimed to create balanced PVP, you know what? I played their "balanced" PVP and so far Latron Prime two shots my Rhino Prime, Bo Prime is the best coptering weapon and if you want to win every melee duel, Dex Dakra is your personal weapon of choice. The only way I was able to stand a chance, it was hiding behind a wall and use that exploit with jit scan weapons shooting through walls at the place you're pointing. Enemies weren't seeing me AT ALL, and I was wrecking their faces with my Braton Prime (personally second best wpn in new PVP).
BTW: Paris Prime- 9 dmg per shot while MK1 Paris: (fix-)14 (or something like that) dmg per shot and Latron Wraith 44.

Conclusion: WTF u call balance DE? (or I should rather say "u wot m8")
EDIT#: Rhino charge instantly kills everyone even if they're full health. Just make sure you have 25 energy and nobody stands a chance against you.

PS: I could really say lots of things about Warframe and DE's failures but everyone's gonna flame me and I don't have time and mood. After what was happening with DE's cooperation with community (what I meant is that they don't care about our ideas and concepts) I don't even want to post my own ideas, Recently I had brilliant concept of changing mod system (just a little bit), I said it to my friends and they said that, hell yeah tehy would REALLY REALLY like to see that in game. But I'm like "What is the point of me posting that concept, if nobody cares about it, especially DE."

Edited April 6, 2015 by RadioLarity

[noveltyhero]

As far as the OP, NoveltyHero, I just checked his stats. He has 733 mission hours. I have a combined total of over 1000 hours over 2 accounts, my main one that I got as a Rhino Prime pack, and one I started when the Liset update come out, in order to "replay" the Star Chart, an account that I meta-game on and keep Plat free where I main an Excalibur with a Glaive (around the 80% usage), to mimic the "Dark Sector" theme of the original game.

I clocked up 350+ hours on the Excalibur account alone (650+) on my main, before I reached a point where I had a decent run of Frames (Excalibur, Loki and a Vauban) to cover everything, and around 15 guns - to which DE keeps giving me new ones, which I normally rank up and sell for extra free slots - before I took a break and went to play other games.

I can make my own balance, I can pick my own missions, and I can even decide which friends I want to run with in order to control how I want the mission to pan out. What exactly is there to dislike?

Is this game repetitive? Yes. Are there balance issues? Of course. Would I change a ton of things if I was in charge? Hell yes.

Does this game entertain me enough to login, pick random stuff and go blow away faceless AI enemies? Hell yea. It's like an upgraded version of Global Agenda/Borderlands hybrid for me.

If you can't create your fun, you are playing it wrong.

I have to disagree on that point. If I wanted to make my own fun I'd play open ended games like DayZ, 7DtD or heck even DotA 2 falls in that category.

Let me give you an example, why do I play DotA for quite long? To improve my skill and wits in the game, you always learn new things, every game you play you can learn something new (i.e micro managing); can I do that in Warframe? Not really, let me buy a Rhino P and Nova P with Boltor and w/e else at MR 2 and that id pretty much my end game.

Why do I play PS2 extensively? To get better weapons and to master my current weapons and vehicles. But why do that? So in combat I am more effective and can achieve the ever so rewarding objective of conquering continents. In WF? Get more MR to maybe unlock certain things (and now maybe raids).

I can keep going but you get the point. You can only make your own fun for so long.

Also stats? Really? I fail to see how those matter, if the game is that good for you then by all means enjoy it but please don't bring the "I played more hours than you" stuff to me.

Have a nice easter/holiday people :)

[RadioLarity]

I have to disagree on that point. If I wanted to make my own fun I'd play open ended games like DayZ, 7DtD or heck even DotA 2 falls in that category.

Let me give you an example, why do I play DotA for quite long? To improve my skill and wits in the game, you always learn new things, every game you play you can learn something new (i.e micro managing); can I do that in Warframe? Not really, let me buy a Rhino P and Nova P with Boltor and w/e else at MR 2 and that id pretty much my end game.

Why do I play PS2 extensively? To get better weapons and to master my current weapons and vehicles. But why do that? So in combat I am more effective and can achieve the ever so rewarding objective of conquering continents. In WF? Get more MR to maybe unlock certain things (and now maybe raids).

I can keep going but you get the point. You can only make your own fun for so long.

Also stats? Really? I fail to see how those matter, if the game is that good for you then by all means enjoy it but please don't bring the "I played more hours than you" stuff to me.

Have a nice easter/holiday people :)

Yeah, that's actually right Novelty. It's personal feedback. @DSpite If you don't agree, then it's just how you feel. But you can't enforce those things to someone. Me and people like me (including noveltyhero) are trying to explain to others, what makes this game bad in our opinion and point of view. If you're ok with lack of balance and Developers stating that they want to cooperate with community but not doing it at all, then this is your opinion. I'm totally ok with what you're feeling. Dammit I'd say if this game is fun for you, play it as much as you can. Good for you. It's my bad that I can't enjoy this game. But that's why I'd like to make it better :)

EDIT: Yeah: Happy Easter.

Edited April 6, 2015 by RadioLarity

[manub]

Hotfixes != balancing. While they do fix bugs big and small as quickly as they can, they hardly ever change e.g. the damage an ability does or it's duration. It takes months and months of people complaining on the forums and making suggestions until they finally decide to look at a frame again. And then they only do it one frame at a time, while another frame with almost the same ability remains untouched and has to wait for several months to get the same change.

They really do need a dedicated team that does nothing but looking at frames and weapons over and over again, changing damage numbers and other stats and check how it affects the game. Does it make a frame almost useless if an ability suddenly does 10 damage less at base level? How does it affect the average player's build if an ability lasts just two seconds longer? Do you suddenly end up with an unkillable enemy if you increase a mini-gunners armour by 20 points or does it just make them last just the right amount of time longer to make them more interesting? What happens to level 50 enemies if you change the third decimal of the multiplier in the armour calculation formula?

Right now, Scott says "yeah, I'm looking at $frame again" on devstream maybe once each quarter. But you can't do balancing like that, it has to be a continuous process. You have to push out that kind of change every week instead of just with the major (x.0, x.5) updates. So if it turns out that you accidentally turned Rhino into a

on legs, you can reverse that change a week later and bring him back in line again.

if you look at the hotfix log (on warframe wiki), I think you ll find they change abilities & weapons quite regularly.

they don't do it every week, but I think programming the game & objectively evaluating what needs to be changed takes more than a week in average. admittedly, there are some things largely overdue  in need of fixing. still I think it will come eventually (the grind, the grind,the grind...)

 

Yeah, that's actually right Novelty. It's personal feedback. @DSpite If you don't agree, then it's just how you feel. But you can't enforce those things to someone. Me and people like me (including noveltyhero) are trying to explain to others, what makes this game bad in our opinion and point of view. If you're ok with lack of balance and Developers stating that they want to cooperate with community but not doing it at all, then this is your opinion. I'm totally ok with what you're feeling. Dammit I'd say if this game is fun for you, play it as much as you can. Good for you. It's my bad that I can't enjoy this game. But that's why I'd like to make it better :)

EDIT: Yeah: Happy Easter.

1- nobody said we were fine with the lack of balance

2- DE does cooperate with the community: chiefly the design council, & if you read the community hot topics polls you'll see they select threads from the forums regardless of their provenance & try to listen to the feedback

 

while I do understand the points of view, I think (& hope) that DE tries to do its best. the process may not be fast enough for you to be satisfied, but it's unfortunately inevitable

Might I also recall everyone in here: warframe is a (semi-) beta, you can't expect everything to work fine at 1st

[noveltyhero]

if you look at the hotfix log (on warframe wiki), I think you ll find they change abilities & weapons quite regularly.

they don't do it every week, but I think programming the game & objectively evaluating what needs to be changed takes more than a week in average. admittedly, there are some things largely overdue in need of fixing. still I think it will come eventually (the grind, the grind,the grind...)

1- nobody said we were fine with the lack of balance

2- DE does cooperate with the community: chiefly the design council, & if you read the community hot topics polls you'll see they select threads from the forums regardless of their provenance & try to listen to the feedback

while I do understand the points of view, I think (& hope) that DE tries to do its best. the process may not be fast enough for you to be satisfied, but it's unfortunately inevitable

Might I also recall everyone in here: warframe is a (semi-) beta, you can't expect everything to work fine at 1st

I think what Bibliotekar meant is that the changes are not carefully and systematically made for the bigger image, they are just slapped around almost like temporary values that would later get changed but they never do.

With the suggested dedicated team the values changed would be more precise for their purpose. For example, .5 armor scaling can make a big difference in the long run at high levels for a more balanced enemy.