De! You Need (A) Test Group(S)!

[Aodan]

Changes through all facets of warframe have shown a significant lack of real input from trusted/validated Tenno.

Esp coming from PvP 2.0, DE you seriously need to find teams/high end players who can give you honest/subjective feedback.

The sheer choice to incorporate low end control through slash, charge, pull, and kogake with no real break out mechanics shows a severe lack of testing on your end.

I litteraly get bad flashbacks of poor choices/implements from wow/wildstar arena, kor shooters, and global agenda with some of the choices you make towards PvP changes.

CC should always be a high cost/high reward choice, not a spamable

Competitive gun play should be reward to mechanic based with side grades, not significant upgrades.

Warframe energy is waaaayyy too abundant in maps and goes directly against your original approach towards how powers would play in PvP 2.0 getting 25+ energy should be significantly more risky than current implementation.

You have continued to implement more warframes and weapons which have not been properly balanced in any sense.

You need to slow down your approach to implementation and really review feedback/implements on a case by case. This isn't the main PvE game mode. Real PvP players would rather see high quality implementations over quantity.

You have tons of Tenno who come from competitive gaming backgrounds, why not use them since you don't have a PTR server.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Aodan

[Atomic_Beam]

They already have a bunch of players helping them....you are just assuming things.

[Auramaru]

I agree. So many things in CtC just confirm that whatever test group they have is either dishonest, naive, or ignorant. How kogake haven't been touched yet is beyond all of us.

[ThePresident777]

No thanks.

1)  Don't want my gaming experience controlled by the chosen few.

2)  Anybody can already contact DE and share their observations, for free.

3)  This would be free Q&A work.

[Aodan]

They already have a bunch of players helping them....you are just assuming things.

I know some of them but the pool is in my testing experience, really small.

Also it's not assuming because they are using Tenno who have little to no real competitive gaming experience/testing.

It's horribly obvious in day 1 to now PvP 2.0 implements

[Aodan]

No thanks.

1) Don't want my gaming experience controlled by the chosen few.

2) Anybody can already contact DE and share their observations, for free.

3) This would be free Q&A work.

1) more than often, those chosen few, such as esport teams in games that are really competitive. Those teams reveal real issues and trends with feedback that addresses the issue instead of "Nerf" that posts which is useless.

2) Other than blasting forums DE doesn't hand a PTR or any other real feedback option so, your wrong there buddy.

3) If I'm going to spend time pushing out real QA, then they can contact me and increase their player feedback pool with real competitive experienced players

[Cleesus]

3) If I'm going to spend time pushing out real QA, then they can contact me and increase their player feedback pool with real competitive experienced players

Thats a nice attitude to have if your trying to get accepted into testing, elitism normally isnt a required skill to test stuff lol

[.Talia.]

Apparently they had a test group, prior to Update 16 release.



If the same group still doing tests, no one knows except themselves and DE. And if there is no current test group going on, i agree that it should. 

As a matter of fact i would gladly volunteer to help with whatever they need regarding testing and balance. 

I can also think of a few players that i could recommend, that have been testing the new PvP to its limits in every way.

[Auramaru]

Thats a nice attitude to have if your trying to get accepted into testing, elitism normally isnt a required skill to test stuff lol

Neither is cynical sarcasm >_>

[LeshJaeThiHah]

Apparently they had a test group, prior to Update 16 release.

this group has failed. or it didn't.

 

well somebody sure as hell failed. because to relase a game mode in such sad state... i would be ashamed to do that.

Edited April 2, 2015 by LeshJaeThiHah

[Cleesus]

Neither is cynical sarcasm >_>

Thats true

[elele]

1) more than often, those chosen few, such as esport teams in games that are really competitive. Those teams reveal real issues and trends with feedback that addresses the issue instead of "Nerf" that posts which is useless.

 

Well unlike in other games, there is a fundamental divide between PVP veterans and new players. Veterans want more copter, more speed. New players want less copter, more abilities. 

 

Also other games get esport players to test because those games make tons of money from esports. Of course they have to please their most important customers. There is no esport scene in WF.

[Auramaru]

3) If I'm going to spend time pushing out real QA, then they can contact me and increase their player feedback pool with real competitive experienced players

 

 

Thats a nice attitude to have if your trying to get accepted into testing, elitism normally isnt a required skill to test stuff lol

I don't think this was so much of condescending/elitist statement from OP so much as it was factual.

 

Naturally, if you put a competitive personality versus a "for fun" personality into a PVP environment for the sole purpose of testing, you'll see that the competitive personality will use/abuse every overpowered mechanic at their disposal whereas the "for fun" personality will simply play... well... for fun.

 

If you think that the only reason to put a competitive, experienced player into a tester position is to boost his ego... wow... 

 

For example: I know what's over-powered because I use Frost, freeze spamming. Lex as my secondary and I spam Kogake. Alternatively, I channel Bo Prime.

 

I destroy people with this combo. I know it is overpowered, and I know that there likely isn't a better combo out there: I have a competitive personality and I'm playing to win, no matter whose toes I'm stepping on. 

 

Because of that fixation on winning, a competitive personality can sniff out the unbalanced nature of a game much... faster (?) than someone who is just there to have fun - naive to the fact that there are combinations 1000x better than their "favorite" loadout.

[onemoonlight]

shrug

 

leave it be, they'll take a crap-load of flak and daily rage threads once this gets introduced into dark sectors, then they'll start some serious fixage of all the stupid/op/cheap stuff

[.Talia.]

I'll just copy+paste my response in another topic:

 

 

I agree that casual testings are not a efficient way to determine if something is balanced or not. DE have to observe how the players are using the current meta in a competitive match, then its possible to get a clear view of whats broken. 

 

Edited April 2, 2015 by RexSol

[rockscl]

im afraid that actually few things can be objectively be called as broken when the game doesnt present standards for the expected experience, here we dont have a consistent minimum time to win, by example, or a standarized minimum time to cross each room so they have a deep meaning, it seems to have been balanced around keeping warframe´s identity, and while you dont touch that identity every thing is subjective, here we dont have anything like

 

"we didnt expected to have cephs being stolen before 30 seconds, so we are looking for ways to make that work as intended"

or

"out intention never was to allow players to refill their 100 energy in less than 10 seconds, so we are looking for ways to prevent this"

or

"with ultimates, we didnt expect to give you control over the whole enemy spawn, so we will reduce volt´s radius"

or

"we dont want pub matches to be artificially extended for more standing"

 

up to now, seems like all that has been adressed are those damages that outshined everything else like the original spinning attack and the paris ohk

Edited April 2, 2015 by rockscl

[Auramaru]

im afraid that actually few things can be objectively be called as broken when the game doesnt present standards for the expected experience, here we dont have a consistent minimum time to win, by example, or a standarized minimum time to cross each room so they have a deep meaning, it seems to have been balanced around keeping warframe´s identity, and while you dont touch that identity every thing is subjective, here we dont have anything like

 

"we didnt expected to have cephs being stolen before 30 seconds, so we are looking for ways to make that work as intended"

or

"out intention never was to allow players to refill their 100 energy in less than 10 seconds, so we are looking for ways to prevent this"

or

"with ultimates, we didnt expect to give you control over the whole enemy spawn, so we will reduce volt´s radius"

or

"we dont want pub matches to be artificially extended for more standing"

 

up to now, seems like all that has been adressed are those damages that outshined everything else like the original spinning attack and the paris ohk

True. DE still needs to clarify what they want out of PVP : /

[Cleesus]

I don't think this was so much of condescending/elitist statement from OP so much as it was factual.

 

Naturally, if you put a competitive personality versus a "for fun" personality into a PVP environment for the sole purpose of testing, you'll see that the competitive personality will use/abuse every overpowered mechanic at their disposal whereas the "for fun" personality will simply play... well... for fun.

 

If you think that the only reason to put a competitive, experienced player into a tester position is to boost his ego... wow... 

 

For example: I know what's over-powered because I use Frost, freeze spamming. Lex as my secondary and I spam Kogake. Alternatively, I channel Bo Prime.

 

I destroy people with this combo. I know it is overpowered, and I know that there likely isn't a better combo out there: I have a competitive personality and I'm playing to win, no matter whose toes I'm stepping on. 

 

Because of that fixation on winning, a competitive personality can sniff out the unbalanced nature of a game much... faster (?) than someone who is just there to have fun - naive to the fact that there are combinations 1000x better than their "favorite" loadout.

The thing is none of you know who was in the testing environment, there is a lot of assumptions being thrown around and a lot of "I know I would be better than the people who tested" etc etc with out any of you actually knowing what went on during the testing phase.

 

 

So you cant call it factual when all you have is speculation on your side.

 

3) If I'm going to spend time pushing out real QA, then they can contact me and increase their player feedback pool with real competitive experienced players

The nature of this quote is one where the poster is saying that the testers were not real competitive and experienced players, who didnt give real feedback. That was what I was responding to. That is elitism.

 

 

I think thats my only problem with threads/thoughts like this, everyone always thinks they can do better than the next person and in this case no one knows how well that next person did. So there is no reason to put down the testers.

 

Also casual people are just as important as those who see themselves as pros/veterans.

 

Another problem is the people in the testing could have gave the same feedback you guys are giving now, but testers are not developers, they have no final say on how/when things are implemented, considering the small pvp dev team size its going to take awhile for them to be able to act on the feedback you give them.

[elele]

im afraid that actually few things can be objectively be called as broken when the game doesnt present standards for the expected experience, here we dont have a consistent minimum time to win, by example, or a standarized minimum time to cross each room so they have a deep meaning, it seems to have been balanced around keeping warframe´s identity, and while you dont touch that identity every thing is subjective, here we dont have anything like

 

"we didnt expected to have cephs being stolen before 30 seconds, so we are looking for ways to make that work as intended"

or

"out intention never was to allow players to refill their 100 energy in less than 10 seconds, so we are looking for ways to prevent this"

or

"with ultimates, we didnt expect to give you control over the whole enemy spawn, so we will reduce volt´s radius"

or

"we dont want pub matches to be artificially extended for more standing"

 

up to now, seems like all that has been adressed are those damages that outshined everything else like the original spinning attack and the paris ohk

 

This. WF currently sits in an uncomfortable position between old arena shooter (Quake), third-person MMO PVP (Guild Wars) and console third-person shooter (Gears and Max Payne 3). Players coming from the three backgrounds have vastly different expectations about their game experience. 

 

No consensus can ever be reached among the three groups of players. 

 

And then you have those "Conclavers/conclave veterans" who have adapted to the bizarre and broken Conclave 1.0 and fell in love with it. 

[Aodan]

im afraid that actually few things can be objectively be called as broken when the game doesnt present standards for the expected experience, here we dont have a consistent minimum time to win, by example, or a standarized minimum time to cross each room so they have a deep meaning, it seems to have been balanced around keeping warframe´s identity, and while you dont touch that identity every thing is subjective, here we dont have anything like

"we didnt expected to have cephs being stolen before 30 seconds, so we are looking for ways to make that work as intended"

or

"out intention never was to allow players to refill their 100 energy in less than 10 seconds, so we are looking for ways to prevent this"

or

"with ultimates, we didnt expect to give you control over the whole enemy spawn, so we will reduce volt´s radius"

or

"we dont want pub matches to be artificially extended for more standing"

up to now, seems like all that has been adressed are those damages that outshined everything else like the original spinning attack and the paris ohk

"Intended" and what actually is implemented is all a reflection of testing and feedback.

DE doesn't intend a lot of things, but such things are in the game. Again due to poor testing pool and feed back

[Aodan]

This. WF currently sits in an uncomfortable position between old arena shooter (Quake), third-person MMO PVP (Guild Wars) and console third-person shooter (Gears and Max Payne 3). Players coming from the three backgrounds have vastly different expectations about their game experience.

No consensus can ever be reached among the three groups of players.

And then you have those "Conclavers/conclave veterans" who have adapted to the bizarre and broken Conclave 1.0 and fell in love with it.

This, I can already tell el has similarity in experience in gaming as I.

I honestly think they need to focus on:

1) Balancing copter and melee ttk

2) Significantly lowering energy available in maps ( thus a longer time to amass an ulti and skill spam 1 lower)

3) tweeks to weapons being more about mechanics and side grades than clear upgrades.

[Aodan]

Well unlike in other games, there is a fundamental divide between PVP veterans and new players. Veterans want more copter, more speed. New players want less copter, more abilities.

Also other games get esport players to test because those games make tons of money from esports. Of course they have to please their most important customers. There is no esport scene in WF.

Actually, I would say most competitive players want overall shower ttk/pace play in everything than Gun play.

Right now gun play is close if they balance guns more on side grades than direct upgrades.

Copter between vets and casuals would more so say it needs to be toned down. Not cause if skill variables but due to overall map coverage.

[elele]

The thing is none of you know who was in the testing environment, there is a lot of assumptions being thrown around and a lot of "I know I would be better than the people who tested" etc etc with out any of you actually knowing what went on during the testing phase.

 

I think thats my only problem with threads/thoughts like this, everyone always thinks they can do better than the next person and in this case no one knows how well that next person did.

 

Another problem is the people in the testing could have gave the same feedback you guys are giving now, but testers are not devlopers, they have no final say on how/when things are implemented, considering the small pvp dev team size its going to take awhile for them to be able to act on the feedback you give them.

 

Well, how about DE tell us about what kind of testing group they used? Other PVP game developers, they either send out alpha invites to randoms, or invite esports players. DE is making a product and it's their responsibility to communicate well with their customers. 

 

Which goes back to an old thread of mine: DE is not communicating well about PVP. And it's not good for their business. 

[Aodan]

Apparently they had a test group, prior to Update 16 release.

If the same group still doing tests, no one knows except themselves and DE. And if there is no current test group going on, i agree that it should.

As a matter of fact i would gladly volunteer to help with whatever they need regarding testing and balance.

I can also think of a few players that i could recommend, that have been testing the new PvP to its limits in every way.

Reading your posted IMG, shows my issue.

A very small test group with fresh content and not even months of testing.

I came into internal testing for structured gw2 late, however it allowed me great insight over the month I got. Two weeks is nothing.

Many MMOs use PTR, looking at wildstars fails, they had tons is input from competitive arena players but still implemented new stuff that conflicted with what vets were telling them.

I have the same feeling here:

1) Too small of a pool for input/testing/feedback.

2) Not an ongoing pool

3) Lack of DE focusing on balance and less in adding

[Cleesus]

Well, how about DE tell us about what kind of testing group they used? Other PVP game developers, they either send out alpha invites to randoms, or invite esports players. DE is making a product and it's their responsibility to communicate well with their customers. 

 

Which goes back to an old thread of mine: DE is not communicating well about PVP. And it's not good for their business. 

I think if you guys actually give them enough time to get stuff figured out you might be able to get the answers you are looking for eventually. A lot of this is obviously very new, so give them enough time to sort and find out the answers themselves. I cant tell you how long it might take or if you will get every answer you are looking for.

 

But honestly the game mode has been out for barely over 2 weeks and it seems like everyone is forgetting that it takes awhile to get stuff done, especially when you have a very small team. I could see if we were having this convo 3 months from now, but PvP 2.0 just dropped.