Concerns Of A Zephyr User, The Update 16.7 And 16.8 Revival: Now With Even More Turbulence Ranting!

[ASH_PRIME]

Cool ideas, +1

I discussed the idea of merging her no 1 and 2 into 1 ability the first time I ever used her!

[Rafarutos]

I'm always the one against the merging of Tail Wind and Dive Bomb. IMO Dive Bomb just needs more utility and a separate ground version to be able to cast it while on the ground with slightly tweaked effect. (like pushing away everyone around you, dealing slash procs)

This

Dont forget one thing guys, call me DE fanboy if you like but they have a compagny to run. Noticed how everytime they balance a frame they almost never redo the whole ability they change. Merging ability 1 and 2 and creating a new ability to replace the second one is a lot more work than balancing the ones we have.

Now im all for having a better zephyr, but we have to stay realistic and efficient if we want these change to really happen. I think the turbulence and tornado changes are a lot more fair and more likely to happen. Tweaking is needed, not a complete revamp

Edited April 8, 2015 by Rafarutos

[ObviousLee]

After dwelling on the Warframes & Abilities feedback section for months now, I've noticed an alarming trend has arisen that DE needs to be called out on. There have been many, many threads dedicated to the fixing of Zephyr over the past few months, and I present to you a compilation of the most heavily requested ones, as well as DE's worrisome neglect for Zephyr.

 

1. Tail Wind

By far the most popular suggestion I've seen is that Tail Wind and Dive Bomb should be merged into a single ability; Contacting the ground while Tail Wind is active will trigger Dive Bomb's effect. This is an excellent suggestion in every way imaginable, and DE has absolutely no excuse for not having already implemented it. The one issue it creates is coming up with a new second ability for Zephyr, but that's discussed in the "Dive Bomb" section.

FINALLY! YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

 

I've also seen a massive number of suggestions to make Tail Wind decrease Zephyr's gravity after using it. This would eliminate the annoying rising-falling that repeatedly using Tail Wind to stay in the air causes. Once again, This is an excellent suggestion in every way imaginable, and DE has absolutely no excuse for not having already implemented it as well.

 

Another slightly less popular suggestion I've seen is that Tail Wind should be reworked to give Zephyr a toggle-able archwing-style flight mode that drains energy over time. While I do think this idea has excellent potential, I'm worried that it will actually provide less mobility than Tail Wind currently does by slowing down Zephyr's flight speed to be more similar to the speed of Archwings. If Zephyr could move just as fast as she does with Tail Wind in its current state, then this idea would be absolutely fantastic.

 

Also, I've heard some people say that Tail Wind is now obsolete because of melee air attacks. Although I find this viewpoint to be utterly incorrect, it still has some truth to it. While Tail wind is not worthless or obsolete now, melee air attacks certainly de-valued it. However, this is more of a problem with melee air attacks than with Tail Wind, so they are to be discussed at a later date.

 

also, I absolutely have to mention the mid-air cliffs that teleport you back to the ground if you exceed a certain height. They are inconsistently placed, almost impossible to predict the location of, absolutely ruin any ability to fly, and need to be at least tripled in height. While they mostly just interfere with Tail Wind and nothing else, removing them would make it too easy to get out of the tileset, so the best thing to do would be to vastly increase how high up they are.

 

2. Dive Bomb

Dive Bomb is easily Zephyr's worst ability. The damage is so pitiful that it's basically just a radial knockdown and nothing else. As stated in section 1, there is absolutely no reason for Dive Bomb to be separate from Tail Wind. Combining the two abilities would allow for Zephyr to have a less terrible second ability, making every ability in her kit actually worth using.

 

The most popular suggestion I've seen for Zephyr's new second ability is a toggle-able "hover mode" that greatly reduces Zephyr's gravity and drains energy over time. This would complement her flight capabilities very nicely. Zephyr's air control would still allow her to move around while hovering, and could even be used in conjunction with Tail Wind to move large distances very quickly without ever touching the ground.

 

3. Turbulence: The Revengeance

Where do I even start? Anyone who knows anything about my warframe forum history will know about my intense, burning hatred for the utterly stupid and broken mechanics of this ability, due to the fact that it's straight up less effective against projectile weapons than hitscan weapons. However, I won't be talking about why this ability is so stupidly designed.

 

I'll be talking about how even though it's stupidly designed, it doesn't even work the way it's supposed to! Turbulence isn't just stupidly designed, it's completely broken as well! I can basically just copy and paste my own words at this point.

 

Warframe builder lists Turbulence's outer radius for my Zephyr build at 35.5m. After being killed straight through my Turbulence twice in a Lech Kril assassination mission, I decided to test that. I placed a waypoint on a level 30 Grineer elite lancer, moved 5m away from him, and continuously backed up 1m at a time. At about 15m and onwards, I was being hit by every single one of his shots.

 

Turbulence's outer radius: 35.5m

 

Actual effective range: about 15m

 

Enemies with hitscan weapons are actually accurate enough to completely overpower Turbulence's accuracy debuff, making the ability almost completely worthless against all hitscan weapons. This has been a problem since the last enemy accuracy update, in which enemy accuracy was linked directly to range. Turbulence has been broken in this way for months now, and DE has diligently ignored my attempts to inform them of this bug that's utterly destroying Zephyr.

 

But that's not all, folks! Turbulence is also completely broken against Bombard rockets!

 

After doing copious amounts of testing on both Ceres and T4 Void missions, I have made a discovery that is equally remarkable and appalling. Since Bombard rockets are not hitscan, they should be deflected when they hit the inner radius, right? This is not what happens. The rocket still changes direction on contact with the inner radius, but because of the homing effect, after entering the inner radius, the rocket will immediately curve back around and hit Zephyr directly. Unless you move, the rocket will hit you directly every single time. The rocket's homing effect is actually stronger than Turbulence's redirection effect. The game is obviously trying to have Turbulence deflect Bombard rockets away from you, but fails miserably due to the homing effect.

 

These tragically ignored bugs have been a cancer on all Zephyr users for months now. It should be painfully obvious how to fix them, but DE hasn't for some reason that I fail to comprehend.

 

4. Tornado

Tornado is an excellent ability in theory, but has some major consistency issues. The spawn locations of the tornadoes is extremely uncontrollable, and enemies often end up being ejected before they've taken a significant amount of damage. Here is the best and most popular solution I've seen thus far.

 

Casting Tornado costs 25 energy and summons a single tornado wherever your crosshair is pointing. Zephyr can summon up to 4 tornadoes at once, totaling 100 energy for 4 tornadoes, exactly as it is now. Casting a 5th Tornado will destroy the oldest tornado. This change would give Zephyr far more control over the placement of her tornadoes, making her ult a far more reliable ability.

 

To solve the problem of inconsistent damage, the solution is extremely obvious. Any enemy sucked into a tornado remains inside the tornado until the duration ends. This means that any enemy caught will take the full remaining damage of the tornado, eliminating even more inconsistency.

 

5. DE Is Intentionally Ignoring Zephyr

Throughout the entire time Zephyr has been in in the game, I can only remember a single intentional change to one of her abilities, a small buff/fix to Turbulence (how did that fix work out now?) that happened soon after Zephyr was released. This means that Zephyr has received the fewest changes of any warframe relative to how long she's been in the game. Chroma has probably received more changes than Zephyr. Even Frost and Ember, two of the most obsolete, worthless frames in the game, have still received the occasional makeover. Not so with Zephyr.

 

I experienced Zephyr's neglect in full when I tried to raise awareness of how horrifically broken Turbulence was, and still is to this day. I gained a massive amount of support from the community across multiple threads discussing multiple problems with the ability, but now, literally months down the line, there has been absolutely no effort made to fix these cancerous bugs that utterly cripple Zephyr.

 

All of these brilliant, popular suggestions that have sprung up on the feedback forums haven't even so much as been responded to by someone who could potentially fix these issues. Will Zephyr ever get these much needed changes? Will Turbulence ever ascend from its hideous, malformed state?

 

All I ask for is one response from one DE staff member telling me that you still care about Zephyr. Or tell me that Zephyr might as well not exist in the minds of the devs and will be ignored till the end of time; at least then I'll know the truth.

FINALLY! YES YES YES YES YES YES YES ALL THE YES FOREVER TWICE

[(PSN)abb12355]

Zephyr Is my favorite frame, but they technically needed turbulence again, now stalker can dispel it. We need a buff to turbulence it can block all ranged weapons and they give us a nerf. Zephyr us probably the only frame that didn't get a fix to one of her ablitys. Than ablitys like shatter shield and elemental ward (ice) are just copys that had more fixes than turbulence. I swear I played Zephyr since u12 and I thought by at least u16 she would be fixed or reworked. But no, it just gets worse because stalker can now dispel it.

I remember asking them in one of there prime times/devstreams (I don't remember) can you fix turbulence to deflect all hitscan weapons and rocket? And they said turbulence was fine, when it really isn't. it show they don't care about Zephyr When they are other less important fixes like "mirages winter skin not showing up when eclipse is active" It screams that they don't care about Zephyr because they decide to waste there time, fixing cosmetics and not the mechanics of a broken frame. DE,.If you here all our voices, rework Zephyr, most of her ablities have problems and it's not fair to us that we have to suffer these problems. I can't even play on high level missions because every time I want to play a high level, they ask for my frame, I tell them I play Zephyr, and they don't allow me to play with them. All these issues have to be addressed. Save our Zephyr!

Edited April 10, 2015 by (PS4)abb12355

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I remember asking them in one of there prime times/devstreams (I don't remember) can you fix turbulence to deflect all grineer weapons and rocket? And they said turbulence was fine, when it really isn't.

 

This explains why Turbulence isn't fixed yet; DE doesn't know about the problem somehow, despite my best efforts to inform them. They aren't neglectful, they're just ignorant.

 

Maybe it would be beneficial if they actually looked at the feedback forums.

Edited April 9, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[Dubious.Wisp]

Yes. Zephy needs some love. Merge 1+2 together, and give some kind of directed dmg skill. Like a burst of wind that sends enemies flying.

 

Can't see much use for your 2 rework, I can maintain that state just by jumping.

 

Zephy is awesome.

[Exvellioth]

 I wreck this game so hard with Zephyr, I mainline her, and I love your ideas OP. I'm the lucky guy whose Turbulence always works, and I've gotten pretty good at 'placing' my tornadoes, though I do agree its annoying to have them spawn on top of you when the enemy is out of' placement range'. I occasionally get nicked by enemies when running turbulence, but usually I'm moving far too much and too fast for it to impact my shields much. But love your idea for combining her 1 and 2 into a sort of 'death from above' power from SR4.

[onichomp]

i support this, zephyr could be such a fun frame

+1

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I'm always the one against the merging of Tail Wind and Dive Bomb. IMO Dive Bomb just needs more utility and a separate ground version to be able to cast it while on the ground with slightly tweaked effect. (like pushing away everyone around you, dealing slash procs)

 

Sorry I didn't get to responding to this sooner.

 

I'm not sure why combining Tail Wind and Dive Bomb would be a bad thing. If you wand Dive Bomb to be more viable, perhaps its utility could be improved as you suggested as well as combined with Tail Wind? If Dive Bomb was combined with Tail Wind, it would allow for another ability to increase Zephyr's air mobility, which has been very heavily requested by the community.

 

As for Tornadoes, I think it's not a good idea to cast every tornado separately, so to cast 4 tornadoes you'd need to spend 5+ seconds casting all of them?

I think it would be good if one of the tornadoes would spawn at your crosshair, while the other 3 spawn as usual. The one that you spawn manualy could also be slightly larger than others, with increased suck-in range, and that one would keep all the enemies in it for the entire duration, while the others (smaller ones) would still throw enemies away occassionaly.

 

If only one tornado spawns where your crosshair is, then it would only be 25% as reliable as the most heavily requested suggestion, the one listed in the OP. If the casting time was reduced to 1/4 of its original time, then it shouldn't be too much of a problem. I'll add that to the OP.

Edited April 10, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

Sorry I didn't get to responding to this sooner.

 

I'm not sure why combining Tail Wind and Dive Bomb would be a bad thing. If you wand Dive Bomb to be more viable, perhaps its utility could be improved as you suggested as well as combined with Tail Wind? If Dive Bomb was combined with Tail Wind, it would allow for another ability to increase Zephyr's air mobility, which has been very heavily requested by the community.

Usually multifunctuonal buttons doesn't work as you want them to work. It's already the case with Tail Wind, since sometimes it decides that you are not standing on the ground, and launches you forward instead of upwards. With Tail Wind/Dive Bomb merge this would get similar in the air. They can't make it like you suggested (contacting the ground while Tail Wind is active will activate Dive Bomb) since a lot of times you would just be a few meters short and miss the Dive Bomb. It's also would affect a low duration builds (basically the only semi-viable Dive Bomb build at the moment) The only other option to do this, is make Dive Bomb activate when you look down, but then the "amount of down" comes in. Directional melee are pretty messy at times because of slams that activate ocassionaly when you don't want them to, and the same would be with Dive Bomb. It would get in each other's way too much.

If only one tornado spawns where your crosshair is, then it would only be 25% as reliable as the most heavily requested suggestion, the one listed in the OP. If the casting time was reduced to 1/4 of its original time, then it shouldn't be too much of a problem. I'll add that to the OP.

Still it would be much longer because you have to aim each tornado, which adds at least half a second between casts, also manual aim is not always better than current autoaim. For example, I've been playing Limbo for some time, and I miss cataclysm cast quite often.

It might be a good solution to make it a single hand cast instead though, so you could activate a single tornado on the run. It would be even better if you could choose to cast one tornado or four tornadoes at once, but that's not easy to implement, I guess.

[VanillaRegal]

You and I all know that this thread will be locked or deleted eventually because of the scandalous idea of making Zephyr useful. She is to date one of my favorite frames because of her unique abilities and innate low-gravity state but her powers... Just do not catch up. I find myself only pulling her out for speedruns so I can throw on Jetstream Turbulance and dash across the map and jump miles in the air to avoid having to deal with the dodgy hitboxes of Parkour. Most of the time I forget she has any powers other than Turbulance and I actually find myself upset whenever a player uses Tornado because it means the enemies I was trying to shoot at are going to be harmlessly ragdolled away ultil they get back up and casually resume shooting. Her abilities just do not have the same 'oomph' that one would think they should. Granted, her element is Wind so it is hard to think it could do more than lightly toss people (or herself) about.

[Dubious.Wisp]

You and I all know that this thread will be locked or deleted eventually because of the scandalous idea of making Zephyr useful.

 

Ultimately, making these type of threads I feel is useless. I can only recall a few times when abilities were ever reworked, and in nearly all cases it was nerfs to make the abilities less powerful or not synergize as well.

 

Maybe they don't want every Warframe to be the star of the show, maybe not all of them were meant to be amazeballs.

 

Artistic integrity.... never ceases to amaze me.

 

Come to think of it, if the devs ever did cowtow to every one of these suggestions and have the community behind the wheel...Warframe would be a broken hellscape of overpowered abilities, terrible balance, and egotistical megalomania.

 

There would have to be a revolution of players for some tangible change, which some of us have seen here. Until then all we have is head canon and dreams of the perfect mix abilties for our favourite Warframes.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Ultimately, making these type of threads I feel is useless. I can only recall a few times when abilities were ever reworked, and in nearly all cases it was nerfs to make the abilities less powerful or not synergize as well.

 

Maybe they don't want every Warframe to be the star of the show, maybe not all of them were meant to be amazeballs.

 

Artistic integrity.... never ceases to amaze me.

 

Come to think of it, if the devs ever did cowtow to every one of these suggestions and have the community behind the wheel...Warframe would be a broken hellscape of overpowered abilities, terrible balance, and egotistical megalomania.

 

There would have to be a revolution of players for some tangible change, which some of us have seen here. Until then all we have is head canon and dreams of the perfect mix abilties for our favourite Warframes.

 

The most I've ever seen the players make a difference is on the Retune All The Frames thread. I've had my faith shaken many times, and repeatedly almost gave up on the feedback forums. However, the Retune All The Frames thread, the Synoid Gammacor nerf, the Rakta Ballistica buff, and the Ember buff (although it still didn't do enough) shows that DE will at least change things by popular request as long as the entire community simultaneously sets fire to the forums. This is a thread of all the most heavily requested Zephyr changes I've seen, so although it is unimaginably slim, there is a chance that something will be done. It also might help that I'm specifically calling DE out on their neglectful behavior.

 

If we want change, we need to burn the forums. Burn it all.

 

Burn it all.

Edited April 10, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[DSpite]

HELLIONS F***ING FLY BETTER THEN THE AIR WARFRAME

How the **** coud a broken DNA stupid grineer clone with a jetpack fly better then the ELEMENTAL OF FLIGHT WARFRAME?

 

Really? Pretty sure Airbenders can't fly either in that series, "you'd think the masters of AIR could fly". They need a glider to actually fly. We use Archwings.

 

Way to try and use personal logic to justify a change in your favor.

 

Grieeners with Jetpacks don't "fly better". They generally go up and stop and we murder them. They don't constantly glide around the battlefield like helicopters. With enough Energy, Zephyr is basically a glider.

[DSpite]

 

The most I've ever seen the players make a difference is on the Retune All The Frames thread. I've had my faith shaken many times, and repeatedly almost gave up on the feedback forums. However, the Retune All The Frames thread, the Synoid Gammacor nerf, the Rakta Ballistica buff, and the Ember buff (although it still didn't do enough) shows that DE will at least change things by popular request as long as the entire community simultaneously sets fire to the forums. This is a thread of all the most heavily requested Zephyr changes I've seen, so although it is unimaginably slim, there is a chance that something will be done. It also might help that I'm specifically calling DE out on their neglectful behavior.

 

If we want change, we need to burn the forums. Burn it all.

 

Burn it all.

 

I'm not totally against your ideas, but I get squeamish when players that have a favorite, beloved Frame jump in Forums and point out their woes.

 

It's your fav. I feel for you, but it does not justify this level of changes.

 

There is a ton of Frames, they all have to have unique things, but that does not mean "make one fly like a helicopter, and make the other 20 walk, because this one has master-of-the-Air" in the description. Pretty sure casting Tornadoes qualifies as "master of air".

 

Excalibur is "sword themed". He does not have sword bonuses, one ability is called Radial Javelin" and does not even shoot Javelins, it shoots swords. Radial Blind uses a Sword for the animation. He is "Sword Based".

 

Scream all you like, but no Frame should be a special snowflake. There is ZERO way I'd just let Zephyr "fly" like you asked.

[Dubious.Wisp]

I'm not totally against your ideas, but I get squeamish when players that have a favorite, beloved Frame jump in Forums and point out their woes.

 

It's your fav. I feel for you, but it does not justify this level of changes.

 

There is a ton of Frames, they all have to have unique things, but that does not mean "make one fly like a helicopter, and make the other 20 walk, because this one has master-of-the-Air" in the description. Pretty sure casting Tornadoes qualifies as "master of air".

 

Excalibur is "sword themed". He does not have sword bonuses, one ability is called Radial Javelin" and does not even shoot Javelins, it shoots swords. Radial Blind uses a Sword for the animation. He is "Sword Based".

 

Scream all you like, but no Frame should be a special snowflake. There is ZERO way I'd just let Zephyr "fly" like you asked.

 

Sigh....this is a grounded view point, and the correct one. No matter how much we huff and puff, the devs are rooted on their design in regards to Warframes. Even if some abilities outright suck, it's what was destined and worked on to make the final product.

 

Also, Mistress of Air :D

[(PSN)SteampunkJester]

Really? Pretty sure Airbenders can't fly either in that series, "you'd think the masters of AIR could fly". They need a glider to actually fly.

 

Well actually

 

An airbender can fly, as proven by Zaheer from the Legend Of Korra. It's just that they have to completely let go of "earthly tethers" (I assume that means letting go of the material world). So it is possible...just hard and super rare.

Edited April 10, 2015 by (PS4)SteampunkJester

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Well actually

 

An airbender can fly, as proven by Zaheer from the Legend Of Korra. It's just that they have to completely let go of "earthly tethers" (I assume that means letting go of the material world). So it is possible...just hard and super rare.

 

Don't exactly think Tenno have that option. Fortunately, we have the advantage of space magic.

 

The changes in the OP are the ones most heavily requested by the community. I was apprehensive as well about the idea of letting Zephyr have archwing-style flight, but I think it has the potential to be at least viable. Still, a change that drastic is probably not needed when Tail Wind can be improved to make it even more viable.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

ZEPHYR CHANGES INCOMING! Devstream #50 confirmed that Tail Wind is being looked at for parkour 2.0! I think there's at least a slim chance chance that the most heavily suggested Tail Wind changes listed in the OP will be made, considering how the community has repeatedly demanded them.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

ZEPHYR CHANGES INCOMING! Devstream #50 confirmed that Tail Wind is being looked at for parkour 2.0! I think there's at least a slim chance chance that the most heavily suggested Tail Wind changes listed in the OP will be made, considering how the community has repeatedly demanded them.

The way thay said about it made me think they just going to scrap all the flying ability of Zephyr...

On the other hand they also could make something like a super jump (charged jump?) for everyone, so maybe they will improve the flying ability of Zephyr to not be redundant.

 

Hopefully they are not going to make Zephyr just a wind frame that walks on the ground...

[Dubious.Wisp]

After seeing what 'changes' mean to the devs, and 'the good of the game', I am wary of what could happen.

 

I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Grander.Alderman]

-snip-

-snip-

 

They just recently simply took away an incredibly useful ability from Limbo, one of the most specialist frames we have. I'm not sure what to expect when they get to something versatile as Zephyr...

Edited April 12, 2015 by Grander.Alderman

[Kontrollo]

I use Zephyr regularily and I don't have much of a problem with her abilities. I think there are other 'frames that are more in need of a rework than Zephyr.

 

Some of the suggestions could be nice, but the aggressive undertone in your OP is kind of a turnoff, so I won't go into that further.

 

You're certainly not speaking for me with your "changes to Zephyr that everyone wants".

Edited April 12, 2015 by Kontrollo

[DrCrawford]

Agreed w/OP +1

[Coded]

Zephyr is in a really good place right now I think. Id like to think of her as a more mobile tank. The changes to tail wind I can see people wanting but I think her abilities play into her mobility pretty well. Using them in sequence is what makes her "fly". I think if she got an archwing type free flight it would feel clunky with certain tilesets and compromise her speed a little. But maybe thats me, personally I love using her first 3 abilities the way they are.

 

1 to get in the air > 1 again to fly forward > 2 to drop in a location and knock the mob down > hit 3 when you dive = safe.

 

or you can just jump and 1 to fly forward in a hurry. Ive actually had fun getting better with my tail wind aim, as it really does get you out of some bad situations or get you tow here you need to be faster. It just takes practice with the right modding.

 

Tornado however is the one ability that I will agree needs some work, if we can choose where the Tornadoes are casted, with the same cap of 4 at a time, I think id be happy.