Concerns Of A Zephyr User, The Update 16.7 And 16.8 Revival: Now With Even More Turbulence Ranting!

[akira_him]

+1

but it is sad that her remake would be at least after frost

[DrBorris]

Zephyr needs some help, ever since the accuracy changes Turbulence has been in a terrible spot. In addition, Turbulence seems to be serving the opposite purpose of how it should work. Turbulence SHOULD be the compensation for being far away from enemies (high above) where there is no way for Zephyr to avoid their fire. 

 

As for the Tail Wind/Dive Bomb thing, I am on the side to have Tailwind become a toggle ability after reaching the peak of that initial jump. Then I would make Dive Bomb operate as how Tailwind currently does whenever you are in the air, but has the shock wave whenever you hit a solid surface. (Basically the same thing everyone wants, the only difference is how the abilities are activated. As long as Zephyr gets a flying toggle ability I would be happy)

 

The following is a suggestion I had for Turbulence...

Original Thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/432795-turbulence-rework-make-it-useful-for-corpus-and-grinner/#entry4797416

 

As of now, Turbulence is in a very bad place. It is still OP against Corpus but is useless against Grineer. The following suggestion tones down Turbulence for Corpus, but then makes it equivalently useful for Grineer.

 

As a warning, this is a complete rework of the mechanics of Turbulence, but with similar results.

 

First off, we must look at the role turbulence is supposed to play. Zephyr is an air based frame, she is meant to be in the sky attacking enemies. The problem with attacking from above is it removes options of cover and severely restricts quick movements. Thus, Turbulence should be the ability that protects Zephyr when she is at a distance from enemies (the opposite of how it works now for Grineer). Turbulence should, if anything, be more effective the farther an enemy is away. Think about it logically, the more time a bullet is exposed to Turbulence, the more it should be deflected, right?

 

Now for the rework. Turbulence now has an unmodable 50 meter range (the maximum range for abilities). Throughout that range, have the angle of direction of enemy projectiles be increased (y axis) by 15 degrees. Power strength mods would just effect the angle (more strength increases).

 

Thus, the farther away you are from an enemy, the farther a bullet will possibly be deflected from its original target. This would also make Turbulence much better of a team ability. Turbulence would be much weaker at short ranges, an enemy that is close to you will still hit you, but it will become immensely powerful at longer ranges. This will make it so Turbulence is no longer an invincibility shield for Corpus and will make it much more powerful against the Grineer. Hitscan enemies outside the fifty meter range will not be effected by Turbulence, but there is not really any way to account for those enemies, I doubt many enemies will be able to shoot you from 50 meters away anyway (many tile sets are not that large and most enemies do not attack until they are considerably closer).

 

That is it from me, 15 degrees might be a bit overpowered, but you get the idea (8 degrees would be as low as I would go). I would like to think that this would even give Zephyr a role in end game missions, being able to drastically effect the accuracy of enemy weapons for such a large range would provide a nice amount of breathing room, but without creating invulnerability (close range units still can easily hit you).

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

The following is a suggestion I had for Turbulence...

Original Thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/432795-turbulence-rework-make-it-useful-for-corpus-and-grinner/#entry4797416

 

As of now, Turbulence is in a very bad place. It is still OP against Corpus but is useless against Grineer. The following suggestion tones down Turbulence for Corpus, but then makes it equivalently useful for Grineer.

 

As a warning, this is a complete rework of the mechanics of Turbulence, but with similar results.

 

First off, we must look at the role turbulence is supposed to play. Zephyr is an air based frame, she is meant to be in the sky attacking enemies. The problem with attacking from above is it removes options of cover and severely restricts quick movements. Thus, Turbulence should be the ability that protects Zephyr when she is at a distance from enemies (the opposite of how it works now for Grineer). Turbulence should, if anything, be more effective the farther an enemy is away. Think about it logically, the more time a bullet is exposed to Turbulence, the more it should be deflected, right?

 

Now for the rework. Turbulence now has an unmodable 50 meter range (the maximum range for abilities). Throughout that range, have the angle of direction of enemy projectiles be increased (y axis) by 15 degrees. Power strength mods would just effect the angle (more strength increases).

 

Thus, the farther away you are from an enemy, the farther a bullet will possibly be deflected from its original target. This would also make Turbulence much better of a team ability. Turbulence would be much weaker at short ranges, an enemy that is close to you will still hit you, but it will become immensely powerful at longer ranges. This will make it so Turbulence is no longer an invincibility shield for Corpus and will make it much more powerful against the Grineer. Hitscan enemies outside the fifty meter range will not be effected by Turbulence, but there is not really any way to account for those enemies, I doubt many enemies will be able to shoot you from 50 meters away anyway (many tile sets are not that large and most enemies do not attack until they are considerably closer).

 

That is it from me, 15 degrees might be a bit overpowered, but you get the idea (8 degrees would be as low as I would go). I would like to think that this would even give Zephyr a role in end game missions, being able to drastically effect the accuracy of enemy weapons for such a large range would provide a nice amount of breathing room, but without creating invulnerability (close range units still can easily hit you).

 

It's nice to see someone else that acknowledges how utterly broken Turbulence is. This is an excellent suggestion, but since most tilesets are quite close range, I can only really see this suggestion working if it provided a significant accuracy reduction at close range before being increased at all by moving further away. Still, it would help solidify the longer range playstyle that Zephyr is supposed to encourage.

[climatiseur]

Tail wind : gravity resistance, mobility, arch-wing flying mechanic, and merging dive bombs - all of them can actually coexist. I can't see why some people assumed arch-wing flying mechanic would hinder her mobility. You can always press 1 again to fly over the map in full speed. 

[OverlordMcGeek]

cannot allow this thread to ever die.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

cannot allow this thread to ever die.

 

REVIVAL! Let's continue this fight that I started literally over two months ago, to try to get DE to actually notice a crippling bug that completely ruins an entire ability.

Edited April 18, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[willoux_]

*bumps* DE you need to see this and at least let us know you see this. You want to be hailed as the devs who listen to the community? Then do something about zephyr, she's been in desperate need of a rework for months now.

[OverlordMcGeek]

REVIVAL! Let's continue this fight that I started literally over two months ago, to try to get DE to actually notice a crippling bug that completely ruins an entire ability.

if i can bug the living hell out of DE for 3 months to have a gorgon wraith variant and then to my surprise they do so. we can accomplish anything.

[Dubious.Wisp]

REVIVAL! Let's continue this fight that I started literally over two months ago, to try to get DE to actually notice a crippling bug that completely ruins an entire ability.

 

Did you PM grineeer?

[yles9056]

A lot of people suspect that Turbulence is broken against hitscan weapon, but it's hard to confirm since it's based on chance. It sometimes works for me, but sometimes doesn't, which is quite confusing.

 

I would suggest to add two additional feature to Turbulence to make it better:

-For enemy within outer radius of Turbulence: If their hitscan bullet do not miss, it will be converted to projectile like Corpus weapon, but will not be deflected by inner radius. This will give Zephyr a second chance to dodge the bullet.

 

-For enemy outside outer radius of Turbulence: There will be a "wall" around the outer radius of Turbulence. Any hitscan bullet that hits the wall will be converted to projectile like Corpus weapon, but will not be deflected by inner radius.

 

 

 

As for Tornado, I have a few suggestion after playing with Funnel Clouds for several missions:

-The screen shake on Tornado is annoying. And with Funnel Clouds, the screen shake is more annoying. Please tone it down or remove screen shake entirely. I wouldn't mind if screen shake only applies upon spawning tornadoes.

 

-Please allow us to cancel Tornado earlier in case tornadoes spawn at weird location. Here's my suggestion: When Zephyr cast Tornado again, all tornadoes will travel back to Zephyr and then be removed.

 

-This is a pretty crazy idea: Make Zephyr's energy color work like Chroma. By that I mean make Zephyr's energy color affect tornadoes' initial damage type. It's annoying when you have to find and shoot all 12 tornadoes to change their damage type.

 

Default color: magnetic

Red: fire

Green: toxin

Blue: electric

White: cold

Edited April 18, 2015 by yles9056

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

A lot of people suspect that Turbulence is broken against hitscan weapon, but it's hard to confirm since it's based on chance. It sometimes works for me, but sometimes doesn't, which is quite confusing.

 

I would suggest to add two additional feature to Turbulence to make it better:

-For enemy within outer radius of Turbulence: If their hitscan bullet do not miss, it will be converted to projectile like Corpus weapon, but will not be deflected by inner radius. This will give Zephyr a second chance to dodge the bullet.

 

-For enemy outside outer radius of Turbulence: There will be a "shield" around the outer radius of Turbulence. Any hitscan bullet that hits the shield will be converted to projectile like Corpus weapon, but will not be deflected by inner radius.

It isn't based on chance if I'm getting hit 100% of the time at ranges exceeding 15m.

This suggestion would probably make Turbulence even worse against hitscan weapons than it already is, since it would remove the 15m of protection without adding any redirection effect. The problem with Tubulence is that it's straight up worse against hitscan weapons than projectile weapons, but against projectile weapons, it's basically god mode. Turbulence needs to affect hitscan and projectile weapons in exactly the same way; this is the only rework that would solve the problem.

On the "Retune All The Frames" thread, I saw the best suggestion possible for Turbulence:

-Any ranged attack, hitscan or not, that hits the inner radius has an X% chance to be deflected, and a Y% chance to be redirected at a random enemy inside the outer radius. X and Y values both increased by power strength, but X is capped at a value below 100%.

-Any Bombard rocket that hits the inner radius will be deflected and lose it's homing effect.

-Any shot capable of dealing damage greater than 50% of your combined max health and shield values will have the deflection chance cap removed.

[Paradoxbomb]

There's definitely some valid points and suggestions in this thread. I honestly don't care much for Zephyr myself, but I won't deny that she could really use some more attention, at the very least a fix for Turbulence with regard to these recent enemy accuracy changes. Also really like the idea of being able to manually place Tornadoes.

 

 

P.S. And why is so much of her an uncolorable grey? It's a bit petty I suppose, but aesthetically speaking it would be nice if more than 50% of her could be recolored.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Paradoxbomb

[CaptainBAMF]

I literally have 2k hours in warframe. 47% of the time, im a zeph. That means pretty darn close to 1000 hours of epic playtime with one of the most unique warframes to date.

 

Her tailneed needs to accent her flight. As OP had mentioned, having her hover in midair for a moment after using an initial tailwind would make it alot easier to fly forward, or any direction after ascending. Rather then immediatly falling.

 

DiveBomb is useless at this point. It needs to be merged with tailwind. Or Reimagined completly. Maybe divebomb damage multilpes with x height?

 That still require almost EVERY course to have their roofs lifted for zeph. Currently when flying in the air on an outside map I have a 1/2chance of being teleported on a jump.

 

Turbulence. This has been weird. For a long time it seemed as if if deflected alot/almost all incoming attacks. It broke somewhere along the way. I understand that hitscan can pierce its, but lvl 5 grineer doing it is a joke. This needs a rework.

 

Perhaps tie turbulences debuff to powerstrength, enemy lvl, and DISTANCE.

 

If im standing 30 feet away, with WINDS GOING CRAZY around me, i dont understand how the grineer can even aim a weapon at that, a few bullets getting in, sure. All of them? What is this, wind shield for ants?

 

Tornadoes. Pretty decent CC, no damage. Zeph should have 5-6 tornadoes standered if there is no damage buff to the individual tornadoes themselves.

 

 

Oh and Remember, Zeph has 15 armor, the lowest in the game. Without a Decently working Turb, Zeph is locked to the most dedicated or experienced tenno in terms of time its takes to learn to play her with the current, very outdated zeph.

 

 

That being said Zeph Master Race!!

[yles9056]

-snip-

 

That 15m actual range does seem to be a problem. It really should be fixed.

 

But why would adding additional feature make Turbulence worse? The original feature remain the same. It still reduce hitscan weapon accuracy.

The only difference is that when Turbulence fails to protect Zephyr from hitscan bullets, she get a second chance to dodge. You are less likely to be hit by projectile if you are moving, and you have more time to find yourself a cover. I think it fits Zephyr's theme(mobility) without making her too OP. But I have to admit the idea from "Retune All The Frames" thread sounds appealing.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

That 15m actual range does seem to be a problem. It really should be fixed.

 

But why would adding additional feature make Turbulence worse? The original feature remain the same. It still reduce hitscan weapon accuracy.

The only difference is that when Turbulence fails to protect Zephyr from hitscan bullets, she get a second chance to dodge. You are less likely to be hit by projectile if you are moving, and you have more time to find yourself a cover. I think it fits Zephyr's theme(mobility) without making her too OP. But I have to admit the idea from "Retune All The Frames" thread sounds appealing.

Ah, I thought your suggestion would remove the current mechanic. Still, the only way to truly fix this problem is to make Turbulence affect hitscan and projectile weapons equally. However, before DE even considers a rework for Turbulence, I think they should fix the bugs with the ability. For two months it's been ignored, and I can't put into words how disgraceful that is for DE.

[DrBorris]

In hindsight I noticed that what I originally posted here was a bit long and confusing, so I am going to try to simplify it a bit (and bump the thread)

Original

Zephyr needs some help, ever since the accuracy changes Turbulence has been in a terrible spot. In addition, Turbulence seems to be serving the opposite purpose of how it should work. Turbulence SHOULD be the compensation for being far away from enemies (high above) where there is no way for Zephyr to avoid their fire. 

 

As for the Tail Wind/Dive Bomb thing, I am on the side to have Tailwind become a toggle ability after reaching the peak of that initial jump. Then I would make Dive Bomb operate as how Tailwind currently does whenever you are in the air, but has the shock wave whenever you hit a solid surface. (Basically the same thing everyone wants, the only difference is how the abilities are activated. As long as Zephyr gets a flying toggle ability I would be happy)

 

The following is a suggestion I had for Turbulence...

Original Thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/432795-turbulence-rework-make-it-useful-for-corpus-and-grinner/#entry4797416

 

As of now, Turbulence is in a very bad place. It is still OP against Corpus but is useless against Grineer. The following suggestion tones down Turbulence for Corpus, but then makes it equivalently useful for Grineer.

 

As a warning, this is a complete rework of the mechanics of Turbulence, but with similar results.

 

First off, we must look at the role turbulence is supposed to play. Zephyr is an air based frame, she is meant to be in the sky attacking enemies. The problem with attacking from above is it removes options of cover and severely restricts quick movements. Thus, Turbulence should be the ability that protects Zephyr when she is at a distance from enemies (the opposite of how it works now for Grineer). Turbulence should, if anything, be more effective the farther an enemy is away. Think about it logically, the more time a bullet is exposed to Turbulence, the more it should be deflected, right?

 

Now for the rework. Turbulence now has an unmodable 50 meter range (the maximum range for abilities). Throughout that range, have the angle of direction of enemy projectiles be increased (y axis) by 15 degrees. Power strength mods would just effect the angle (more strength increases).

 

Thus, the farther away you are from an enemy, the farther a bullet will possibly be deflected from its original target. This would also make Turbulence much better of a team ability. Turbulence would be much weaker at short ranges, an enemy that is close to you will still hit you, but it will become immensely powerful at longer ranges. This will make it so Turbulence is no longer an invincibility shield for Corpus and will make it much more powerful against the Grineer. Hitscan enemies outside the fifty meter range will not be effected by Turbulence, but there is not really any way to account for those enemies, I doubt many enemies will be able to shoot you from 50 meters away anyway (many tile sets are not that large and most enemies do not attack until they are considerably closer).

 

That is it from me, 15 degrees might be a bit overpowered, but you get the idea (8 degrees would be as low as I would go). I would like to think that this would even give Zephyr a role in end game missions, being able to drastically effect the accuracy of enemy weapons for such a large range would provide a nice amount of breathing room, but without creating invulnerability (close range units still can easily hit you).

 

Have Turbulence add 15 8 degrees to the elevation of all enemies weapons withing 50 (pretty much the max range for anything in Warframe) meters of Zephyr.

 

What this would basically do is have Zephyr become more efficient at deflecting projectiles at a far range (Zephyr's intended area, far above the enemy). This would balance it for Corpus missions (it is a bit OP) and make it equally useful on Grineer missions (where it is pretty useless right now). This would also make this a wonderful team skill. It basically would have the exact same effect for all allies within the 50 meter range due to the angle adjustment affecting all enemies in that range.

 

Here is some basic math on how this would work out. Lets assume that Zephyr is 2 meters tall (I know it is a bit high, but it will make things simpler for me). On average, it could be assumed that enemies are aiming at the center of Zephyr, so 1 meter up. This would leave a total of one meter before a projectile was completely defected from hitting Zephyr. With some basic trig that would mean that any enemy 3.7 meters or more from Zephyr would not hit her. For fun, an enemy that is 50 meters away from Zephyr will overshoot by 13 meters. 

 

That actually sounds a bit OP, power strength would obviously effect the angle of deflection, so just intensify would make all enemies only 2.8 meters away would miss. A maxed power strength build would mean all enemies outside of 1 meter of Zephyr would miss. 

 

Thus, a nicer number would probably be 8 degrees at base. This would mean that enemies outside 7.1 meters will have projectiles be pretty much entirely diverted, and an intensify would take that down to 5.4 meters.

 

All of that math may be completely off because of the estimation of the height of a Zephyr being off, but it gets across the point of how powerful that rework would be (but still not be complete invulnerability and have a large weakness to short ranged attacks.

[climatiseur]

 

 

DiveBomb is useless at this point. It needs to be merged with tailwind. Or Reimagined completly. Maybe divebomb damage multilpes with x height?

 

 

 That still require almost EVERY course to have their roofs lifted for zeph. Currently when flying in the air on an outside map I have a 1/2chance of being teleported on a jump.

 

 

Divebomb's damage already scales with height, according to wiki.

 

But yet, the biggest limitations is that most maps have a too low "ceiling" available. Most of the time she got redirected back to the ground before reaching the highest point, making this damage scaling pointless.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Divebomb's damage already scales with height, according to wiki.

 

But yet, the biggest limitations is that most maps have a too low "ceiling" available. Most of the time she got redirected back to the ground before reaching the highest point, making this damage scaling pointless.

 

While I agree with this, Dive bomb's damage is just too low to ever be anything more than a radial knockdown. How about after merging it with Tail Wind, it gets changed so that it ragdolls enemies it hits, and how far it throws them is dependent on how high up you use it from, as well as power strength?

[Impact6]

Don't mind me, I'm just commenting on this post to give it more attention to get DE to say something.

I mean really man, c'mon.

 

 

 

"Silly little birds closing their eyes,

And hopping from branches singing lalabies."

[Impact6]

I'm just also gonna leave this here:

Posted Today, 09:46 PM

 

 

"

Impact6, on 19 Apr 2015 - 9:19 PM, said:

I have some small questions, did Zephyr's turbulence work flawless, as intended for you?????? Could you fly to the ceiling without getting your position reset? Did you even use abilities?  Appreciated. And btw, I agree...... sometimes.

 

A little off topic, but Zephyr's turbulence helps TREMENDOUSLY. I can fly around pretty freely, and only get my position reset sometimes. You learn where the points are in rooms where that happens. I use abilities all the time. Tail wind keeps me aloft where I can't be hurt easily, and dive bomb coupled with heavy impact is a great CC.

"

 

This is T4.

I'm quite baffled, is it the mod loadout?  Or is it because of lowlevel enemies in the beginning that her Turbelence actually works.....

 

[Dubious.Wisp]

I usually don't upvote, but when I do..it's for worthy causes. Needs way more attention, but at this point more people want things done with ...Saryn....than Zephyr..

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

 

I'm just also gonna leave this here:

Posted Today, 09:46 PM

 

 

"

Impact6, on 19 Apr 2015 - 9:19 PM, said:

 

A little off topic, but Zephyr's turbulence helps TREMENDOUSLY. I can fly around pretty freely, and only get my position reset sometimes. You learn where the points are in rooms where that happens. I use abilities all the time. Tail wind keeps me aloft where I can't be hurt easily, and dive bomb coupled with heavy impact is a great CC.

"

 

This is T4.

I'm quite baffled, is it the mod loadout?  Or is it because of lowlevel enemies in the beginning that her Turbelence actually works.....

 

 

 

Turbulence is only broken against hitscan weapons and Bombard rockets. Against this hitscan weapons of the Grineer and the homing effect of Bombard rockets, it's almost entirely worthless. Against the projectile guns of the Corpus and Corrupted, it's a god mode.

 

DE, do you even consistency?

[Ghost_87]

i'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but for her 4th power. Perhaps if the enemy's caught inside would just spin around in one spot so it's easier for players to shoot at them. Sorta like Vaubans 4th. 

Right now any unit caught within the tornado kinds spins in a cylinder circle which is so annoying..and makes the power not as great.

[OverlordMcGeek]

have you tried shooting rebecca a pm? it is her job after all.

[Impact6]

have you tried shooting rebecca a pm? it is her job after all.

Someone be our hero please. I'm too scared to do that.