Poll Results-86.9% Of Players Want Rollers Tweaked/removed

[Zectifin]

Rollers are a cheap enemy, not a challenging enemy. There is a difference.

[xection9]

I mean c'mon a BALL??? basically that thing can be anything, hey why not make all the bosses in the game a form of a ball, that would be more challenging right. Well at least gives us some other type of enemy instead of "ridiculously agile and highly accurate and stagger player when hit BALL", To me personally in term of design rollers is waaay to cheap, instead of a ball why not make it like cat robot, small ninja or whatever the hell that we can relate for being agile. Geez a ball, seriously?

Bottom line is rollers is the cheapest way to make the game more challenging/annoying.

[Worira]

Okay, like our mod said, lets stay on topic and stop with the personal attacks.

 

My point was that your poll only included a small fraction of the current players and so has inherent inaccuracy.  I have quoted your OP so that you can prove to me where you made mention of an in-game poll which you or another player either suggested or the developers have begun/finished work on implementing.

 

Again, 1000 players is a very good sample size. You do not need to collect the opinions of every player to have good representation of overall views. I, personally, did not vote in the poll, but would have voted that rollers need to be changed or removed if I had.

[11.11.11]

Rollers aren't challenging, just annoying and unfun. Feel free to come up with any excuse you want to try and invalidate my opinion, but I still think they're just obnoxious roadblocks that do little for challenge or flow of the game.

 

You have a valid perspective, but either side taking the line "I don't care what you come up with, I'm not changing my mind." Ensures we will never reach a peaceful resolution on this issue as a community. 

 

I personally think rollers need some work, I've been frustrated with their current state many times, but that dosn't mean that I can't sympathize with those who see them as the last bastion of challenge in the game. 

 

Both sides have a case here, be decent enough to recognize your opposition as fellow human beings. Not sub-human mudslingers unworthy of your time. 

[Wattari]

Challenge and frustration are not the same thing. Rollers are anti-fun. 

This.

 

Though I suspect a lot of people here don't understand the concept of anti-fun, because they see anything that presents difficulty in dealing with them justified as "challenge" just because it's designed to specifically counter you, which isn't necessarily the case.

 

Anti-fun is when a gameplay element exists outside the boundaries of the game's feedback loop, wherein there is no reasonable counterplay available or encourages the use of exploits or other unintended methods and strategies, rather than intending for players to creatively find ways to deal with the problem at hand.  Rollers are a great example of this, because they're specifically designed in the most frustrating way possible:  They are a fast-moving, small entity, about a fifth of the size of your typical Grineer, that is capable of consistently staggering the player.  These are especially problematic in enclosed spaces where a vast majority of the game takes place, and at the same time, are very rarely the only one in a given encounter.

 

As a result, they're hard to target and hit, have a tendency to stay out of view easily, and consistently interrupt the player's actions (and in groups, can end up stun-locking you).  This isn't really "challenging," it's just designed to be as unfair as possible to the player (which, of course, is different from presenting the player with adversity as a challenge for them to overcome - which would actually be good design), and as a result, discourages engaging or trying to get rid of Rollers in the first place.  This is what's at the heart of anti-fun.

 

There are ways to counteract them, but these are almost entirely dependent on being in the right areas at the right time - and even if there is a box to stand on to shoot at them, they're not only necessarily harder to hit than when they're coming straight at you (which is, of course, the easiest time to hit them), they also have a tendency to run into the box and stay as close to it as possible, preventing you from actually shooting down at it.

 

From a design standpoint, they don't have to be like this.  A rather easy and simple way to implement counterplay, make them more fair to deal with and encourage engaging them would be to redesign their behaviors.  Here's what I propose:  Don't make them stagger on normal collision any more, but instead inflict scratch damage (just enough to stop shields recharging), and give them an "attack" where they stop, visually and audibly start revving or charging up, and then dash forward wherein they have a very limited turning radius and bounce off of whatever they hit, while also inflicting more significant damage and staggering the affected target.

 

This behavior pattern solves all of the inherent design flaws to Rollers that make them anti-fun currently:  They're placed directly within the feedback loop by telegraphing their actual attack so you know there's one coming (hear it revving up?  Jump, dodge, or shoot it since it's vulnerable at this point), while also keeping their Grineer combat-support functionality intact by stopping the shield recharge of people they simply bump into, without causing frustrating and discouraging problems for players.  As a result, we have a more distinct enemy type that has specific counterplay, doesn't discourage players from engaging them, and offers players more strategic depth for when they encounter this type of enemy.

[Davoodoo]

Biggest problem with them is that they arent any threat but only nuisance. Same goes for seeker grenades.

Railgun moas also stagger but at least they can kill you. Rollers WONT BE ABLE to kill you unless you allow them.

[MoonicusMaximus]

So it was advertised largely towards players already predisposed against Rollers, i.e. "Players of Warframe"? How is this not legit? This is like making a poll on "is dying bad" and claiming bias because it was only advertised towards people predisposed to not like dying, like all of humanity.

 

Not a fair example. It's more along the lines of setting up a "is this sports team bad" in an area that is home to this particular teams rival, and nowhere else. Of course you're going to get a largely negative response instead of a positive one. The poll wasn't advertised to a random set of players, but a set of players in a thread already predisposed against Rollers.

 

Anyways, the main reason I want Rollers removed is that most of the ways to make them not-annoying will also trivialize them. This is approximately the only thing the opposition has gotten correct. You can't make Rollers not annoying without making them really easy.

 

Given this, why waste time salvaging something when you've already gotten use out of its animations and its model? (Seriously, look at Latchers.)

 

They do need to be replaced by something else. I'd replace them by making Heavies tougher and more maneuverable, give them better AI, and use them more aggressively to flush Tenno out of cover. In addition I'd make the Bombard explosion proximity airburst (so it won't be stopped by cover) and the Napalm one have larger AoE and higher DoT.

 

That, and make grenades easier to spot/avoid, higher damage with a larger radius, and thrown more accurately and somewhat more often. Hope you don't like hiding behind boxes!

 

These are good suggestions for improving the heavy units in the game, but they aren't reasons to remove Rollers entirely.

 

 

I'm seeing a lot of good suggestions for making Rollers more fun to play against, however, which leads me to believe that they want Rollers in, but want to have more fun fighting them. Things like adding extra attack animations and mobility options sound like great ways to accomplish this.

 

- Remove stagger on simple touch (Wattari mentions just graze damage on touch, which isn't a terrible idea)

- Invulnerable 'rev-up' style of attack with high-telegraph, high damage and knockdown, with a period of inactivity if the Roller strikes terrain

- Roller's leap attack staggering and doing a bit more damage

- Ability to scale terrain to better chase players, which also fixes terrain abuse against them

- A self-destruct attack, much like Seeker latchers but more damaging and more difficult to avoid

 

Taking away their ability to stunlock players and a lot of their stunning capability, while still retaining SOME ability to disrupt through stagger on only its actual attacks while giving it more options and ways of attack would be a good start to making Rollers less of a simple bother and more of a legit challenge.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Not a fair example. It's more along the lines of setting up a "is this sports team bad" in an area that is home to this particular teams rival, and nowhere else. Of course you're going to get a largely negative response instead of a positive one. The poll wasn't advertised to a random set of players, but a set of players in a thread already predisposed against Rollers.

 

What? There were plenty of people like yourself defending rollers in that thread, and it's probable that most of the people who voted never even saw the thread in question anyway what with being hosted offsite. Fact is, when you've got 86% of players voting one way, it's pretty clear what's going on. You can try and wiggle out of this all you like, but that doesn't make you any more right. A statistically overwhelming number of people want rollers changed or removed in some fashion.

 

 

 

These are good suggestions for improving the heavy units in the game, but they aren't reasons to remove Rollers entirely.

Correct. The reason to remove rollers entirely is that they're unfun to play and introduce boring fake difficulty rather than real difficulty. Since you yourself have admitted that they're unfun and introduce fake difficulty by saying they need fixing, there's not much to disagree with here. Those suggestions of MJ's exist to placate people like you who consistently bring up how rollers are the only thing making the game hard; this via switching out the fake difficulty for real difficulty.

 

In short:

"Rollers are the only thing that makes the game challenging!"

"Okay, so when we remove them, here's some other ideas that can keep it challenging without making it bothersome. Everyone wins."

"That's not a reason to remove rollers!"

MJ's other point is that all of these "very good" measures you talk about trivialize rollers as a threat. Which is the opposite of what you say you want.

 

 

 

I'm seeing a lot of good suggestions for making Rollers more fun to play against, however, which leads me to believe that they want Rollers in, but want to have more fun fighting them.

Furthermore, this logic above is bogus. People can suggest fixes for rollers without enjoying them or wanting them to remain in the game.

 

 

 

Taking away their ability to stunlock players and a lot of their stunning capability, while still retaining SOME ability to disrupt through stagger on only its actual attacks while giving it more options and ways of attack would be a good start to making Rollers less of a simple bother and more of a legit challenge.

 

Yes, now why would you work to make something terrible a bit less so when you can devote that time to making something that's not terrible at all? The art resources are already used. That's MJ's third point.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[MoonicusMaximus]

Correct. The reason to remove rollers entirely is that they're unfun to play and introduce boring fake difficulty rather than real difficulty. Since you yourself have admitted that they're unfun and introduce fake difficulty by saying they need fixing, there's not much to disagree with here. Those suggestions of MJ's exist to placate people like you who consistently bring up how rollers are the only thing making the game hard; this via switching out the fake difficulty for real difficulty.

 

Rollers having unfair mechanics, like stagger on touch and capability of stunlock, constitute and support fixes and changes to them to make them a more fair, enjoyable enemy. It does not constitute or justify their removal from the game. Rollers can be more than they currently are, but removal of enemy types isn't what DE should be looking at, certainly not for the reasons that have been stated when it is entirely possible to change them and keep their small and fast enemy type, rather than continue to add more large and slow enemy types.

 

In short:

"Rollers are the only thing that makes the game challenging!"

"Okay, so when we remove them, here's some other ideas that can keep it challenging without making it bothersome. Everyone wins."

"That's not a reason to remove rollers!"

MJ's other point is that all of these "very good" measures you talk about trivialize rollers as a threat. Which is the opposite of what you say you want.

 

"There are bears in our woods!"

"Well let's look for a way to keep the bears away from our house."

"NO! WE NEED TO BURN THE WOODS DOWN. THAT WILL GET RID OF THE BEARS."

 

Rollers are currently more challenging than the current roster, not because of their ability to stagger, but because they are small and agile units with low HP. It requires more hand-eye coordination and shooting skills to hit them with your weapons. That's a challenge that other Grineer units do not have, as they are often slow and armored with moderate HP, and we should keep Rollers in to continue to fill that role. But I agree that they need to be changed and deviate away from an over-reliance on staggering effects.

 

Buffing up the other Grineer units is a great idea. And it should happen. But it's not a reason to completely remove Rollers; that's a knee-jerk reaction and not a well thought out plan. The ideal situation in which everyone wins is to make changes to the Rollers as well as Grineer units in general to continue adding to the challenge and fun factors. That's a real win/win situation.

 

And although removing their stagger alone would trivialize Rollers, the suggestions slated would compensate for the lack of staggering through more options of attack and occupying the player. It would only trivialize Rollers completely if all they did was roll around and do no damage and no staggers.

 

Furthermore, this logic above is bogus. People can suggest fixes for rollers without enjoying them or wanting them to remain in the game.

 

What? Why would someone who detests Rollers and wants them removed completely make suggestions that would keep them in the game? MJ hates Rollers and doesn't want them in the game at all, but rather erased completely from the annals of time. Notice how he doesn't make suggestions to make them a better unit. There are other people like Madotsuki who are suggesting changes to them; note how they want the unit to remain in the game, but in a different state than they are currently.

 

Sure, it's entirely possible for people to suggest fixes to something they want completely gone... but it's unlikely, and it's not what's happening in this thread.

 

Yes, now why would you work to make something terrible a bit less so when you can devote that time to making something that's not terrible at all? The art resources are already used. That's MJ's third point.

 

Because Rollers being terrible on a most basic premise is an opinion, not a fact. They are largely despised for their stunlock and constant staggering, and people are suggesting that DE replace their staggers with more methods of attacking and damaging players instead. The fact that the art resources are already being used is irrelevant; the idea of a small, fast and agile low-HP harassment enemy is not anywhere else in the game, and removal of Rollers instead of changing them isn't justified for the reasons others have stated.

Edited May 14, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Rollers having unfair mechanics, like stagger on touch and capability of stunlock, constitute and support fixes and changes to them to make them a more fair, enjoyable enemy. It does not constitute or justify their removal from the game. Rollers can be more than they currently are, but removal of enemy types isn't what DE should be looking at, certainly not for the reasons that have been stated when it is entirely possible to change them and keep their small and fast enemy type, rather than continue to add more large and slow enemy types.

 

Why not? Small enemies with more HP/effective toughness than larger ones are somehow a good thing? Fact is, literally the only things that rollers have going for them is that they flush Tenno out of cover (good), and add "challenge" to the Grineer lineup (bad because the "challenge" is fake difficulty that only exists by taking away player agency). The first thing can be done much more effectively through more well designed enemies, while the latter shouldn't exist at all because it's fake difficulty - so much so that even its supporters like you think it needs to change.

 

Basically, if an enemy type is ill-conceived (see: Nervos), why should it remain?

 

 

"There are bears in our woods!"

"Well let's look for a way to keep the bears away from our house."

"NO! WE NEED TO BURN THE WOODS DOWN. THAT WILL GET RID OF THE BEARS."

 

Man, what is it with your side that you consistently strawman the opposition?

 

Rollers are currently more challenging than the current roster, not because of their ability to stagger, but because they are small and agile units with low HP. It requires more hand-eye coordination and shooting skills to hit them with your weapons. That's a challenge that other Grineer units do not have, as they are often slow and armored with moderate HP, and we should keep Rollers in to continue to fill that role. But I agree that they need to be changed and deviate away from an over-reliance on staggering effects.

 

Why should the Grineer - a faction who's entire aesthetic is huge heavily armored space marines - have a small fast enemy (that is, I remind you, outright more durable than lancers due to having similar HP but also flat DR) at all? Why not something that fits in with their aesthetic and character design? Small fast ramming/melee units are the Infested's whole schtick, and they've already got chargers that are plenty on that front.

 

Don't say "because it's fun", because otherwise you have to defend rollers against much more fun enemy types, with rollers being only "fun" for high skill twitch shooters who can consistently hit the things, and even then, only "fun" in the sense of shooting a small moving target (that doesn't react to your shots, so not very viscerally satisfying.)

 

Basically, you've gotta take into account the casuals here. Not everyone has the skill to shoot rollers before they become a problem, and punishing people who don't have l33t skillz is a problem when it's those casuals who you depend on for your revenue stream.

 

Buffing up the other Grineer units is a great idea. And it should happen. But it's not a reason to completely remove Rollers; that's a knee-jerk reaction and not a well thought out plan. The ideal situation in which everyone wins is to make changes to the Rollers as well as Grineer units in general to continue adding to the challenge and fun factors. That's a real win/win situation.

Why not? If you buff up the other grineer units, there's no reason to have these little balls of annoyance that do nothing beyond annoy less skilled players, and make skilled ones think "oh, more rollers? Blah." Right now, rollers flush Tenno out of cover as their main purpose. Buffing the other Grineer so that they too can flush Tenno out of cover (whether via grenades, more aggressive heavies, new units, or whatever) basically invalidates the roller's whole purpose for existence. 

 

And although removing their stagger alone would trivialize Rollers, the suggestions slated would compensate for the lack of staggering through more options of attack and occupying the player. It would only trivialize Rollers completely if all they did was roll around and do no damage and no staggers.

 

Not so. The only reason rollers are remotely difficult now is because of the stagger. Take that away and it's basically "oh, I got hit by a roller. Ho-hum." Preventing shields from recharging? Giving rollers a revup time? That's going to make them even less of a threat - and they're not much of a threat now, just a hue annoyance.

 

Why would someone who detests Rollers and wants them removed completely make suggestions that would keep them in the game? MJ hates Rollers and doesn't want them in the game at all, but rather erased completely from the annals of time. Notice how he doesn't make suggestions to make them a better unit. There are other people like Madotsuki who are suggesting changes to them; note how they want the unit to remain in the game, but in a different state than they are currently.

Because the term "devil's advocate" is a real thing.

 

Because Rollers being terrible on a most basic premise is an opinion, not a fact. They are largely despised for their stunlock and constant staggering, and people are suggesting that DE replace their staggers with more methods of attacking and damaging players instead. The fact that the art resources are already being used is irrelevant; the idea of a small, fast and agile low-HP harassment enemy is not anywhere else in the game, and removal of Rollers instead of changing them isn't justified for the reasons others have stated.

 

Did you think that maybe, just maybe, it's not anywhere else in the game because it's not a good idea?

[RealityMachina]

IMO stuff like this: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/40949-grineer-emplacedsupport-weapons-a-mechanics-suggestion/ , can go a long way for improving the Grinner enemy variety without resorting to fake difficulty.

[MoonicusMaximus]

Why not? Small enemies with more HP/effective toughness than larger ones are somehow a good thing? Fact is, literally the only things that rollers have going for them is that they flush Tenno out of cover (good), and add "challenge" to the Grineer lineup (bad because the "challenge" is fake difficulty that only exists by taking away player agency). The first thing can be done much more effectively through more well designed enemies, while the latter shouldn't exist at all because it's fake difficulty - so much so that even its supporters like you think it needs to change.

 

Basically, if an enemy type is ill-conceived (see: Nervos), why should it remain?

 

Again, you move directly to straight removal of the entire enemy based on this wild notion that it cannot be made better.

 

So why can't both Rollers and improved Grineer have the ability to flush Tenno out of cover through different means and methods? Why can't the fake difficulty, which is the constant stagger, be removed in favor of more attack methods? Why should DE take the lazy way out and just outright remove something from the game which people have already expressed they enjoy the idea of, but not in its current iteration?

 

 

Man, what is it with your side that you consistently strawman the opposition?

 

The fact remains that outright removal is a knee-jerk reaction and should never be done. Rollers are the natural progression of what started as the Nervos; DE is changing them with input from players, slowly but surely, and where they are currently still isn't enough.

 

Why should the Grineer - a faction who's entire aesthetic is huge heavily armored space marines - have a small fast enemy (that is, I remind you, outright more durable than lancers due to having similar HP but also flat DR) at all? Why not something that fits in with their aesthetic and character design? Small fast ramming/melee units are the Infested's whole schtick, and they've already got chargers that are plenty on that front.

 

Rollers fit Grineer aesthetic quite nicely. Corpus designs have more elegant and precise feels to them, named and modeled after animals with precise movements and such. Rollers are rudimentary robot attack dog-esque units that grind along with blades jutting out, sparks spitting out of the sides. It fits the Grineers simple-minded, war-like and deteriorating status quite well. Their Latcher grenades are modeled after the same thing. Should we remove latchers because they are balls and not pineapples? Of course not. Rollers are a nice compliment to what normally be a complete roster of burly units that all act the same outside of the delivery of their damage.

 

And where's this flat DR/High HP notion for Rollers coming from? You can kill Rollers with less shots than you would a Lancer, even when striking the head. Body shots, forgetaboutit.

 

And although all Infested units are fast and melee, they are not small and difficult to shoot in the slightest, and have much higher HP to compensate. There is a huge design difference between the two unit types.

 

Don't say "because it's fun", because otherwise you have to defend rollers against much more fun enemy types, with rollers being only "fun" for high skill twitch shooters who can consistently hit the things, and even then, only "fun" in the sense of shooting a small moving target (that doesn't react to your shots, so not very viscerally satisfying.)

 

I didn't realize shooting something in a 3rd person shooter game wasn't supposed to be inherently fun. Is it actually fun to shoot and kill Lancers but somehow not fun to shoot and kill Rollers? Would you rather they scream in death and get pinned to the floor by bolts? A Roller getting exploded is arguably just as satisfying to the one doing the killing in the same manner as a Grineer crumpling on the floor after being killed. And even if it somehow were not, it would constitute change, not removal.

 

Basically, you've gotta take into account the casuals here. Not everyone has the skill to shoot rollers before they become a problem, and punishing people who don't have l33t skillz is a problem when it's those casuals who you depend on for your revenue stream.

 

A lot of the suggestions make Rollers actually easier to shoot but able to impart more damage and less stagger. So a lot of these suggestions ARE taking casual into account. Punishing players who are shooting poorly in a 3rd person shooter, advertised as a 3rd person shooter, is fine as long as the punishment is proportionate. That is what these Roller changes are trying to accomplish.

 

Most of the issue people have with Rollers isn't the inability to shoot them anyway; it's their stunlock and constant stagger.

 

Why not? If you buff up the other grineer units, there's no reason to have these little balls of annoyance that do nothing beyond annoy less skilled players, and make skilled ones think "oh, more rollers? Blah." Right now, rollers flush Tenno out of cover as their main purpose. Buffing the other Grineer so that they too can flush Tenno out of cover (whether via grenades, more aggressive heavies, new units, or whatever) basically invalidates the roller's whole purpose for existence. 

 

It's not a good reason because it removes unit variety. These suggestions are trying to make the Roller an enemy that can still disrupt players but through several different attack means and not overly relying on stun and staggers. Having Grineer able to more accurately and effectively use grenades doesn't make them have more unit variety or gameplay variety; Grineer can do this at range without exposing themselves to danger, while Rollers have to actively be close to you and in a direct danger zone to impart the same effect. That's gameplay variety, and if Rollers can be done correctly, there's NO reason to actually remove them completely and reduce gameplay variety.

 

But I'll tell you what; if DE buffs Grineer units with these specifications and it turns out I'm wrong, then I'll agree that they should be removed. Until then, it's speculation at best.

 

Not so. The only reason rollers are remotely difficult now is because of the stagger. Take that away and it's basically "oh, I got hit by a roller. Ho-hum." Preventing shields from recharging? Giving rollers a revup time? That's going to make them even less of a threat - and they're not much of a threat now, just a hue annoyance.

 

The only reason rollers are remotely difficult now is because of the stagger? Then remove some of their means of stagger and give them more options of attack with different benefits.

 

Have Rollers only able to stagger players on their actual leaping attack with blades extended, which they perform infrequently infrequently. Roller leaps are much more dodgable than simple touching; give the leap attack more damage to balance out the fact that simply touching Rollers no longer disrupts players.

 

Rollers simply rolling by beneath you can graze you gently to disrupt your shield regen but otherwise leave you unharmed, which can only happen for a split second as they don't stand underneath you indefinitely.

 

Giving Rollers a revup time? The suggestion was to have Rollers be invulnerable during this rev-up time, but the rev-up is highly telegraphed and does a lot of damage along with a knockdown. This is balanced by a generally short super-roll distance, and if a Roller misses a Tenno and strikes a wall, it is stunned and vulnerable.

 

These suggestions alone give Rollers more presence in a fight, and they aren't as annoying as constant staggering on simple touch. And please keep in mind that, yes, Rollers aren't much of a problem alone; they are a support unit that is meant to work with other Grineer units. It's like saying Leech Osprey are easy to kill.

 

Because the term "devil's advocate" is a real thing.

 

People liking the idea of Rollers but disliking certain aspects of them and wanting them changed is real, too.

 

Fact of the matter is, if you hate something to the point where you don't ever want to see it again, you wouldn't make suggestions that would keep it in your sight. That's a ridiculous notion, even from a devil's advocate standpoint.

 

Did you think that maybe, just maybe, it's not anywhere else in the game because it's not a good idea?

 

I don't see a single shred of evidence that says small and agile but low HP enemies are somehow inherently bad at their very design nature. They've been done in other games for decades. If it was such a bad idea in the first place, they wouldn't have made it this far.

Edited May 14, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[fishworshipper]

Honestly, whenever I see a Roller I Iron Skin and go into a jump-attack frenzy.

Yes, it kills them.

No, it isn't fun.

I wouldn't mind rollers if I could actually shoot the damn things, but whatever.

[Xylia]

I bet the people who like rollers are the same people who enjoy WoW PvP...... Fearfearfearfearstunstunstunstunfearfearfearstunstunstun.

 

It is SO fun staring at the screen unable to move/do anything, amirite?

 

*rolls eyes*

 

I'm not asking the rollers be removed altogether but how about some tweaks to reduce the ridiculous constant staggering that goes on? Make them do a little more damage but less stagger or SOMETHING?

[MoonicusMaximus]

I bet the people who like rollers are the same people who enjoy WoW PvP...... Fearfearfearfearstunstunstunstunfearfearfearstunstunstun.

 

It is SO fun staring at the screen unable to move/do anything, amirite?

 

*rolls eyes*

 

I'm not asking the rollers be removed altogether but how about some tweaks to reduce the ridiculous constant staggering that goes on? Make them do a little more damage but less stagger or SOMETHING?

 

You might like some of the suggestions that are going around in the thread, then. Read those and come back and see what you think. Maybe you'll have something to add.

[Xylia]

You might like some of the suggestions that are going around in the thread, then. Read those and come back and see what you think. Maybe you'll have something to add.

 

I did read over the suggestions in the thread, was just noting that many of them would be better than what we have now. I just don't understand people who enjoy getting stunned/staggered all the time. I can't think of a more frustrating way to make a game unfun than to add something to the game that causes constant loss of control. I'm here to PLAY the game, not watch my character stumbling around constantly while slowly dying and not being able to do much about it.

[thisgamebites]

I hate Rollers so much that I would almost rather them just being an instakill rather than a stun every two seconds.

[MoonicusMaximus]

I did read over the suggestions in the thread, was just noting that many of them would be better than what we have now. I just don't understand people who enjoy getting stunned/staggered all the time. I can't think of a more frustrating way to make a game unfun than to add something to the game that causes constant loss of control. I'm here to PLAY the game, not watch my character stumbling around constantly while slowly dying and not being able to do much about it.

 

I used to think in the way you describe; I wanted Rollers to stay exactly the same as they are. Sometimes it's just blind enthusiasm. When the arguments were presented to me I took a step back and realized that Rollers could be better than they are, and now I support a myriad of changes to them. But not outright removal.

[Xylia]

I used to think in the way you describe; I wanted Rollers to stay exactly the same as they are. Sometimes it's just blind enthusiasm. When the arguments were presented to me I took a step back and realized that Rollers could be better than they are, and now I support a myriad of changes to them. But not outright removal.

 

Yeah, outright removal is overkill.

 

They just need a few tweaks. If they are having trouble getting it to work, then I'd support a Temporary removal while they re-design them. I'd rather them temporarily be taken out than leaving them in the game in their present state though.

[MoonicusMaximus]

Yeah, outright removal is overkill.

 

They just need a few tweaks. If they are having trouble getting it to work, then I'd support a Temporary removal while they re-design them. I'd rather them temporarily be taken out than leaving them in the game in their present state though.

 

I'd like to hear DE's reaction to the Roller debate in general, personally. For all we know some of these changes might be happening in the next big update. That might be why they're so hush about an obvious hot-button topic.

Edited May 15, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[VER1]

I hope nothing gets done about the rollers.

If they are to be tweaked to be dumb or removed this game is going to be far too easy.

 

Rollers are a troll weapon used by the grineer and does a great job.

 

No one likes being trolled but everyone likes beating a troll.

[Mbgunsling]

Rollers are fine. Just slow them down so people can actually shoot them.

And stop them from being able to spawn infinitely.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Again, you move directly to straight removal of the entire enemy based on this wild notion that it cannot be made better.

 

Again with the strawmen. I fully agree that they could be made better.

 

Then I think about how much time would go into testing these new behaviors and balancing them, and I realize that for just a little more time, we can get something much better. Something actually fun to fight. Something new.

 

 

 

So why can't both Rollers and improved Grineer have the ability to flush Tenno out of cover through different means and methods? Why can't the fake difficulty, which is the constant stagger, be removed in favor of more attack methods? Why should DE take the lazy way out and just outright remove something from the game which people have already expressed they enjoy the idea of, but not in its current iteration?

 

Because from a gameplay standpoint, giving everyone the ability to flush you out of cover is almost as bad as giving nobody the ability to flush you out of cover because while that is real difficulty instead of fake difficulty, it's also too much real difficulty for most players.

 

 

 

The fact remains that outright removal is a knee-jerk reaction and should never be done. Rollers are the natural progression of what started as the Nervos; DE is changing them with input from players, slowly but surely, and where they are currently still isn't enough.

 

Why should it never be done? Nervos got removed just fine because they were terrible, and despite the game losing some of this mythical "unit variety", no problems were had.  And a knee-jerk reaction? Is the pot calling the kettle black too here?

 

I can't speak for others, but I want the Rollers gone because even with all these little tweaks you guys suggest, they're still not going to be much fun to fight. At best they'll be mediocre, but I don't want mediocre. I want fun.

 

 

 

Rollers fit Grineer aesthetic quite nicely. Corpus designs have more elegant and precise feels to them, named and modeled after animals with precise movements and such. Rollers are rudimentary robot attack dog-esque units that grind along with blades jutting out, sparks spitting out of the sides. It fits the Grineers simple-minded, war-like and deteriorating status quite well. Their Latcher grenades are modeled after the same thing. Should we remove latchers because they are balls and not pineapples? Of course not. Rollers are a nice compliment to what normally be a complete roster of burly units that all act the same outside of the delivery of their damage.

 

Latchers are just grenades launched by seekers. Rollers... Are these annoying balls that simply are. Unlike literally every other Grineer unit, they aren't some beefy armored space marine. They're this little robot ball that has nearly as much health as a lancer. They stand out from the entire rest of the grineer lineup because of it. And not in a good way.

 

 

 

And where's this flat DR/High HP notion for Rollers coming from? You can kill Rollers with less shots than you would a Lancer, even when striking the head. Body shots, forgetaboutit.

 

Erm, it's coming from the actual game? Rollers are these tiny little balls that are nearly as tough as a huge armored space marine HPwise. I literally just solo'd Hek for a bit to try and fine me some neurodes and trollers took less damage from my gun than the marines to body hits. They died in about the same time, but DR is a strictly superior defense to armor on account of how it can't be pierced with AP ammo.

 

 

 

I didn't realize shooting something in a 3rd person shooter game wasn't supposed to be inherently fun. Is it actually fun to shoot and kill Lancers but somehow not fun to shoot and kill Rollers? Would you rather they scream in death and get pinned to the floor by bolts? A Roller getting exploded is arguably just as satisfying to the one doing the killing in the same manner as a Grineer crumpling on the floor after being killed.

 

It is supposed to be inherently fun. That's the problem. Shooting rollers isn't. Grineer have a reaction to being hit. Rollers don't. There's no visceral reaction here, with the only "fun" being the fun of hitting a small moving target. But if I wanted that, I'd be playing duck hunt.

 

 

 

And even if it somehow were not, it would constitute change, not removal.

 

Why? What exactly is wrong with removal? Be clear.

 

 

 

A lot of the suggestions make Rollers actually easier to shoot but able to impart more damage and less stagger. So a lot of these suggestions ARE taking casual into account. Punishing players who are shooting poorly in a 3rd person shooter, advertised as a 3rd person shooter, is fine as long as the punishment is proportionate. That is what these Roller changes are trying to accomplish.

 

Dude, trying to justify an underlying warrant of "learn2play" isn't going to work.

 

 

 

It's not a good reason because it removes unit variety. These suggestions are trying to make the Roller an enemy that can still disrupt players but through several different attack means and not overly relying on stun and staggers. Having Grineer able to more accurately and effectively use grenades doesn't make them have more unit variety or gameplay variety; Grineer can do this at range without exposing themselves to danger, while Rollers have to actively be close to you and in a direct danger zone to impart the same effect. That's gameplay variety, and if Rollers can be done correctly, there's NO reason to actually remove them completely and reduce gameplay variety.

 

Why is unit variety automatically a good thing? Let's say DE made a bazillion variants on rollers - exploding rollers that hit for similar damage to the Jackal's grenades, good old fashioned trollers, giant nervos, instakill rollers... All of these would contribute to unit variety. All of them would be terrible. Unit variety in of itself is not a goal to be striven for. Good gameplay is.

Nobody's actually explained why rollers are good gameplay and are thus worth keeping.

 

 

 

The only reason rollers are remotely difficult now is because of the stagger? Then remove some of their means of stagger and give them more options of attack with different benefits.

 

Which will result in them losing the only difficulty they have, getting rid of their fake difficulty but retaining some (much?) of the annoyance.

 

"The suggestion was to have Rollers be invulnerable during this rev-up time"

 

That's an even worse suggestion. Fortunately the one who suggested it was saying they could be shot during the revup, which is a bit less terrible.

 

"These suggestions alone give Rollers more presence in a fight, and they aren't as annoying as constant staggering on simple touch. And please keep in mind that, yes, Rollers aren't much of a problem alone; they are a support unit that is meant to work with other Grineer units. It's like saying Leech Osprey are easy to kill."

 

Even with other grineer, these proposed "balanced rollers" wouldn't be particularly worrisome. Current rollers aren't particularly worrisome. They're annoying. Which is the whole point.

 

"People liking the idea of Rollers but disliking certain aspects of them and wanting them changed is real, too."

 

Sure, but I'm not contesting the existence of some people who think like that. I'm contesting your notion that, because lots of people are saying "here's one way to help fix rollers", that automatically means they all want to see rollers remain in the game.

 

"Fact of the matter is, if you hate something to the point where you don't ever want to see it again, you wouldn't make suggestions that would keep it in your sight. That's a ridiculous notion, even from a devil's advocate standpoint."

 

I don't think you understand the point of a devil's advocate.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[MoonicusMaximus]

Again with the strawmen. I fully agree that they could be made better.

 

Then I think about how much time would go into testing these new behaviors and balancing them, and I realize that for just a little more time, we can get something much better. Something actually fun to fight. Something new.

 

And we can get something fun to fight, and a new unit completely. And new and improved Rollers. Getting new units that may not even fill the specific roles that Rollers fulfill still doesn't justify removing them, especially before we even see the new units at all.

 

Because from a gameplay standpoint, giving everyone the ability to flush you out of cover is almost as bad as giving nobody the ability to flush you out of cover because while that is real difficulty instead of fake difficulty, it's also too much real difficulty for most players.

 

We can't know that for certain unless it's implemented. Grineer shouldn't throw grenades the moment you duck behind a box. It should be an infrequent ability, at best, while Rollers can continue to do that, as well as chase Tenno in a much more effective fashion than Grineer units could ever hope to.

 

Why should it never be done? Nervos got removed just fine because they were terrible, and despite the game losing some of this mythical "unit variety", no problems were had.  And a knee-jerk reaction? Is the pot calling the kettle black too here?

 

Outright removal instead of tweaking isn't justified in the means provided. Nervos were terrible because they were too small and the stunlock was too much. Rollers are not nearly on the same level as Nervos were.

 

I can't speak for others, but I want the Rollers gone because even with all these little tweaks you guys suggest, they're still not going to be much fun to fight. At best they'll be mediocre, but I don't want mediocre. I want fun.

 

I'm glad to hear your opinion on what is fun and what is mediocre, but it won't be identical to mine. To me, Lancers are mediocre. They are a yawn to fight. In my experience, trying to kill fast-moving Rollers is more challenging than stationary Grineer, and I derive my fun from being challenged. Which units in this game provide you with the most fun, anyway? Let's use that as a comparison, because other Grineer units don't present the same level of challenge that Roller agility provides, which is why I would also like them buffed to represent a more challenging experience.

 

Making Rollers more engaging with different attacks and reducing their stagger mechanics would also provide them with more ways to challenge me.

 

It is supposed to be inherently fun. That's the problem. Shooting rollers isn't. Grineer have a reaction to being hit. Rollers don't. There's no visceral reaction here, with the only "fun" being the fun of hitting a small moving target. But if I wanted that, I'd be playing duck hunt.

 

And it is inherently fun to shoot Rollers, in the same fashion as Grineer. You are telling me that you would prefer Rollers to flinch upon being hit? They already explode upon death, which is arguably just as satisfying as a Grineer dieing to gunshots. Even the 'visceral' reaction to death by edged weapons, while novel and entertaining at first, loses its awe and luster after the 100th time seeing it and hearing the death gurgle. If you're looking to be entertained by them dieing, try suggesting alternate ways for Rollers to expire; maybe give their death animations a few bits and pieces that fly out and abuse the physics engine a bit.

 

But Rollers not being able to be sliced into bloody bits isn't a valid reason to remove them.

 

Why? What exactly is wrong with removal? Be clear.

 

Because it would be better to just make them more fun. It might not work for you, but it will work for the many others that want Rollers but don't want them as they are.

 

Why is unit variety automatically a good thing? Let's say DE made a bazillion variants on rollers - exploding rollers that hit for similar damage to the Jackal's grenades, good old fashioned trollers, giant nervos, instakill rollers... All of these would contribute to unit variety. All of them would be terrible. Unit variety in of itself is not a goal to be striven for. Good gameplay is.

 

Nobody's actually explained why rollers are good gameplay and are thus worth keeping.

 

Strawman, huh? Okay then.

 

Unit variety and the gameplay variety they provide. I apologize if that wasn't clear enough. Rollers provide a different type of gameplay that gameplay against humanoid Grineer doesn't not contribute to; smaller, more agile enemies that, while more difficult to hit, die quickly when actually hit. They have smaller hitboxes and less discernible weaknesses than humanoid Grineer, meaning the same strategies that work against other Grineer types won't be as effective against Rollers. This provides extra layers to combat situations which challenge players. These types of units have been used in games for ages, to great effect. They don't just suddenly stop being good in the confines of this game.

 

The Roller's ability to stagger continuously and deliver these staggers effortlessly, however, are not worth keeping. Instead of removing them completely, which is unwarranted, we can change them to provide more challenge to players coupled with the 'agile low-HP enemy' angle so that players are given more opportunities to challenge their repertoire of skills beyond the gameplay variety that Grineer units do.

 

Which will result in them losing the only difficulty they have, getting rid of their fake difficulty but retaining some (much?) of the annoyance.

 

Annoyance isn't inherently bad. With their fake difficulty gone, there's more room to add better types of difficulty.

 

"The suggestion was to have Rollers be invulnerable during this rev-up time"

 

That's an even worse suggestion. Fortunately the one who suggested it was saying they could be shot during the revup, which is a bit less terrible.

 

Why would it be worse? Be specific.

 

"These suggestions alone give Rollers more presence in a fight, and they aren't as annoying as constant staggering on simple touch. And please keep in mind that, yes, Rollers aren't much of a problem alone; they are a support unit that is meant to work with other Grineer units. It's like saying Leech Osprey are easy to kill."

 

Even with other grineer, these proposed "balanced rollers" wouldn't be particularly worrisome. Current rollers aren't particularly worrisome. They're annoying. Which is the whole point.

 

Speculation at best, and your personal viewpoint. You state you don't find current Rollers particularly worrisome, and these changes make them slightly less frustrating. These changes and pretty much any change that doesn't directly add straight-up challenge to other units in the game won't interest you if that's the case, but they might interest others and make the unit more fun and engaging for others. You don't speak for them, because several have already expressed these desires in this thread already.

Edited May 15, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[GloriousYellowEmperor]

Whats the sample size? We can't people who "do polls" and "check the warframe wiki" are a good measure of the ENTIRE population of warframe, can we?