Poll Results-86.9% Of Players Want Rollers Tweaked/removed

[Aridus92]

Hey OP, I got a question for you, why are you even trying to explain this stuff to people who apparently can't read worth a damn? Personally I think you're just wasting your time trying to convince people who are too stubborn to see the facts that you have clearly explained and laid out in your opening post (Statistics 101, warframe wiki being a legitimate site, etc). Honestly, if you want to help dispel this whole argument I would just go ahead and make an actual forum poll about this so that everyone can see what the "real" community thinks. I would personally prefer rollers tweaked rather than removed as you stated in your post.

[Venarge]

So it was advertised largely towards players already predisposed against Rollers, i.e. "Players of Warframe"? How is this not legit?

Because It didnt happen on the official forums. Not everyone was asked. And saying that 86.9% of players want them removed/tweaked is simply not true since this wasnt a poll where everybody was informed about. therefore, not a real result/representation of the community and what it wants

[Lyphian]

Guess what. I think they are fun and challenging as they are.

[Squig]

I'd support changing, but never outright removal. I like how people don't understand how polling works though, both sad AND funny.

[perempt]

I hate rollers, but they are not stopping me from playing the game... just a scapegoat so i can hate other stuff less. everything needs a scapegoat.

[Azure_Kytia]

Stop taking your entertainment so seriously.

 

I find this rather ironic considering every post you make is srs bsns. Not in a bad way, though :D

Edited May 15, 2013 by Azure_Kyte

[Engelheim]

I love rollers. Sure they're annoying but they are so satisfying to kill.

[Azure_Kytia]

At the same time, the only people that would be actively researching rollers would also be the ones having issues with them, predisposing them to agree that the Rollers need to go and introducing quite a degree of incalculable bias into the poll.. But that's a whole different argument entirely. Because, you know. People want to know if there is X that can be used to avoid the effects of Y.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Azure_Kyte

[RealityMachina]

At the same time, the only people that would be actively researching rollers would also be the ones having issues with them, predisposing them to agree that the Rollers need to go and introducing quite a degree of incalculable bias into the poll..

People keep saying this, yet I clearly remember quite a few people in the other thread this poll was linked in trying to argue that rollers weren't that bad. Bias can go both ways you know.

[PaperAlien]

Holy S#&$.

 

He has already explained why 1000 people is already sufficient for usage in polling.

 

Just read the goddamn posts you jackass.

And he just explained why he's wrong and 1000 people isn't sufficient for usage in polling.

Is that a problem?

Edited May 15, 2013 by PaperAlien

[RealityMachina]

And he just explained why he's wrong and 1000 people isn't sufficient for usage in polling.

Is that a problem?

Yes, because that explanation dosen't make any sense whatsoever.

 

Unless you want to argue that polls for pretty much every election, polls meant to assess scientific literacy, etc in the United States is wrong because they only use a thousand people or so compared to the 300 million or so population the country has, and explain why polling companies go with such inaccurate data, despite these companies having a goal to make profit and thus would have an incentive to provide accurate data.

 

EDIT: Hell, it's not just the US, French, German, Canadian, Australian, and more companies do these sort of polls, usually using numbers around 1000. These companies tend to be multi-million ventures, one is basically accusing them of being ungodly irresponsible with their business practices if we assume 1000 people is nowhere good enough for accurate polling, even though, you know, nobody in real life seems to be calling them out on that.

 

As if 1000 people is in fact, good enough for heavy duty polling...

Edited May 15, 2013 by RealityMachina

[Azure_Kytia]

People keep saying this, yet I clearly remember quite a few people in the other thread this poll was linked in trying to argue that rollers weren't that bad. Bias can go both ways you know.

 

Certainly it can, and I don't dispute that. It's just it's hard to argue a definitive case either way when your only poll is directed at users which are more than likely going to be having trouble and worded in such a way as to encourage the user to post yes. Anyways, a debate really isn't necessary here, as I'd well assume we've all had quite enough of that in these 10 pages already.

[LongDraw]

Okay, so how many people do you think Microsoft polled about WinME, WinVista and Win8?  I would actually buy into your argument that the standard number is 1,000 polled in these cases :D

 

As for how my job relates to polls and statistics.  Well, I have to show my managers results using surveys that are randomly sent out every time I create and close a service call ticket.  The trick is having the right people get those surveys so that I get the most glowing reviews.

[Aerensiniac]

Maybe ya all should focus on adding something into the game play that is able to challenge the player?

The rollers no matter how much of an annoyance they are, they also happen to be one of the last few remaining enemies, which can get you in a pinch.

Annoyance? Sure.

Leveling, farming, killing can be also annoying. Why not remove them too? Why not play iwin_button.swf instead?

[Tsukinoki]

@Aerensiniac
There are ways to make enemies challenging without being frustrating.

Frustration/Annoyance != challenge.

It just means that they aren't fun to fight.

If they added diminishing returns on the stun mechanics players like you would probably never notice, but the people who do get stunlocked would.  The only thing you would notice is no longer being able to cheese a boss with stunlocking them endlessly.  IMO that would be a good thing and add to some challenge.

Add diminishing returns to stuns, make them able to climb over boxes and maybe even up walls to better chase tenno and keep up with them.  That would make them much better when it comes to flushing people out of cover and without the ability to indefinitely stunlock they would be a lot less annoying to fight.  And it would increase their challenge because they could drop down onto you from something with little warning.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[BoogieMan82]

Keep this clean and on topic.  Before you post please read the Community Rules: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/7-community-rules/

[MoonicusMaximus]

@Aerensiniac

There are ways to make enemies challenging without being frustrating.

Frustration/Annoyance != challenge.

It just means that they aren't fun to fight.

If they added diminishing returns on the stun mechanics players like you would probably never notice, but the people who do get stunlocked would.  The only thing you would notice is no longer being able to cheese a boss with stunlocking them endlessly.  IMO that would be a good thing and add to some challenge.

Add diminishing returns to stuns, make them able to climb over boxes and maybe even up walls to better chase tenno and keep up with them.  That would make them much better when it comes to flushing people out of cover and without the ability to indefinitely stunlock they would be a lot less annoying to fight.  And it would increase their challenge because they could drop down onto you from something with little warning.

 

I like this guy.

[RealityMachina]

Okay, so how many people do you think Microsoft polled about WinME, WinVista and Win8?  I would actually buy into your argument that the standard number is 1,000 polled in these cases :D

That...that doesn't even address the argument at all.

 

But if you want, I can give you sources of polls using around 1000 people (or really, just polls that use small sizes compared to the total population that these polls can influence).

 

A lot of sources, first, with Australia in their 2013 elections.

1400 respondents.

http://www.galaxyresearch.com.au/5-7-march-2013/

1,010 respondents.

http://www.galaxyresearch.com.au/2-4-november-2012/

1,003 respondents.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/2010/08/21/newspoll-nielsen-westpoll/

A 2,500 respondent poll and four different 400 respondent polls in seperate areas.

 

For comparison, Australia's population is around 22 million. So the largest poll shown here interviewed...0.01% of the population.

 

Next, GLORIOUS RUSSIAN CANADIAN MOTHERLAND! :p (in the 2011 elections)

http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/04/27/will-jack-layton-usurp-michael-ignatieff/

1543 respondents.

http://www.nanosresearch.com/election2011/20110419-BallotE.pdf

1,200 respondents.

http://www.harrisdecima.com/sites/default/files/releases/2010/05/18/hd-2010-05-18-en673.pdf

One 2007 respondent poll and one 1007 respondent poll.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2011/03/26/tories_on_brink_of_majority_as_election_looms.html

2365 respondent poll.

 

Population of the motherland was around 34 million at the time of the election, so the largest poll shown here interviewed around 0.007% of the population.

 

Now let's see how those wacky Germans are doing with their 2013 election polls (note: befragte means interviewed, so I'm using those numbers for those confused.)

http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/insa.htm

Polls hover around 2,000 people.

http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/forsa.htm

Polls also hover around 2,000 people, with the occasional 1,000 people poll.

http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/allensbach.htm

Polls tend to hover around 1,500 to 1,800 people.

http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/politbarometer.htm

Polls tend to hover around 1,200 to 1,300 people.

Population of Germany in 2011 was nearly 82 million people. So the largest polls tended to interview around 0.003% of the population.

 

Now let's see how that country that we have the misfortune to have a province from did in their 2012 elections...

http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/politique/sondage-marine-le-pen-3e-derriere-sarkozy-et-aubry_952770.html

830 people were respondents. (Last paragraph explains they interviewed 830 people out of a nationally represenative sample of 1,017 people)

http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/Politique/Sondage-presidentielle-2012-Sauf-pour-DSK-rien-n-est-joue-145585

917 people were respondents, chosen out of a 1,1016 nationally represenative sample.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/assets/pdf/OpinionWay19juin.pdf

1,006 people were respondents.

http://www.ifop.fr/media/poll/979-1-study_file.pdf

892 people were respondents out of a sample of 1,001.

 

Population of France circa 2011 was 65 million. So the largest interview shown here tended to interviewed around 0.002% of the population

 

Man that number just keeps getting smaller and smaller.

 

Now, onto the last one: The large, boisterous neighbours to the south of GLORIOUS CANADA ,during their 2012 elections.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

1,500 likely voters interviewed.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/11/04/top16.pdf

1,010 americans interviewed.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/158519/romney-obama-gallup-final-election-survey.aspx

3,117 americans interviewed.

http://www.people-press.org/files/legacy-pdf/11-4-12%20Election%20Weekend%20Release.pdf

Four different polls, 2,424 interviewed for Sept 12-16, 1,201 interviewed for Oct 4-7, 1,678 interviewed for Oct 24-28, 3,151 interviewed for Oct 31-Nov 3.

 

America's population is around 310 million, so the largest poll shown here interviewed...0.001% of the population.

 

I believe I have made my point.

Edited May 15, 2013 by RealityMachina

[Fdog]

didn't read thread but lmao at wiki polls

[Moondancer]

I have to say rollers are super annoying and suck to fight against that is why they should stay.

[H0LYfuNk]

I think they should be just able to jump over...dats all

[RayOfSpeed]

Everything about Rollers is cool except actually having to play against them, since the continuous stunlock is boring. I really like the idea of letting them bump to halt shield regen (thus keeping them as harassment) as well as having a rev-up super-fast stunning dash that backfires if it misses (since that's less boring than getting stunlocked and makes them a part of the soundscape).

 

I'm going to throw this out there before getting yelled at: Rollers are not challenging. You can mow them down quite easily and as a general rule they don't actually represent a threat (unless they all pounce on you and you get stunlocked). However, they also aren't fun, and that's not good for anyone. Definitely keep them - Grineer need a way to flush you out of cover - but make them fun to fight instead of this boring stunfest.

[Tsukinoki]

@RayOfSpeed

Once you remove the ability to stunlock from the game then you can add more interesting mechanics to them. With the right mechanics they can be fun, challenging, and a great addition to the grineer lineup.

The problem is, as you say, they aren't challenging. They are just annoying. And designing an enemy to be annoying is a bad design decision. Old games did it to cause you to put more quarters into the machines. That is no longer the case so enemies that are designed to do that should go out the window as well.

Removing rollers is going too far. The grineer really do need a unit specialized in flushing the tenno out, and for better or worse they have the roller. The thing that should be focused on is how to tweak them to be a good addition to the game. And who knows, with the right mechanics developed it might be possible to create different versions of rollers to fit different niches like the different MOAs do.

As it is overall unit variety in the Grineer faction is a limiting factor on how engaging the engagements with them can be.

Think of a roller that does zero stun, but teleports every so often while dealing moderate damage. That would be a more challenging unit to fight without being annoying or overly frustrating. The flameblades can teleport, so why not give a faster unit that capability?

Edited May 15, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[GoldFusion]

i think they should just be tweaked like everyone said it is a challenge to overcome but at times its impossible to dodge them and the DE should give some leeway.

[LongDraw]

Wow!  So yeah, using any of the widely known pollsters like Gallup and Rasmussen to predict elections is about as effective as having the weatherman predict the weather a month out.  I think that is something that we all can relate to, heh!!!

 

But seriously, I have no issues with using poll results as long as it is representative of not just the minority (ie. vocal majority).  Convince DE to run an in-game poll about rollers that the entire population can vote on and lets run with those results.