The Nerfers

[(PSN)thehoocodfather]

The answer is yes, yes it was easy.  Took me 3 days... less than an hour a day.

 

Good for you.

 

You must wear your pants outside your trousers.

 

If I ever see a dude in a cape fly over my house, I will go out into the garden and wave up at you.

 

Most normal people arent like you.

 

You are a special killer bunny.

 

They aint.

 

For them the time, grind and effort meant something.

 

But hey, they wear their pants inside their trousers. 

 

What do they know right ? 

Edited April 20, 2015 by (PS4)thehoocodfather

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

You havent played with the new LMG shotgun in call of duty then have you.

 

How about Gjallarhorn ?

 

What about the shotguns / fusion rifles in Destiny PvP ?

 

How about the choppers in BF4 with a buddy sitting in the co-pilot seat with a repair tool ?

 

The quest for balance is a quest for utopia, its a a path only to mediocrity.

I don't own AW so no. Gjallarhorn is an OP weapon that you can use for maybe 3 shots in a game.

Shotguns and fusion rifles in Destiny can't touch anything in Warframe in terms of bad balancing, especially when you look at PvE.

Choppers are choppers. They still are pretty easy to take down for a squad with launchers, a tank with a good gunner, or an attack chopper (that doesn't have the quick repair ability). That's actually a good example of balance.

If BF4 had Warframe levels of imbalance no one would play it.

[vaugahn]

I can say an argument using supports like balance and power creep are specious and full of fallacies because they simply are.

 

Padre, you're a good guy. But this endless self-righteous posturing needs to stop.

 

I've picked out the above quote because it encapsulates your entire attitude: "you're wrong because I say you are".

 

Nothing you say gives you any right to accuse others of what you do. Nothing gives you any right to write off an entire argument because you don't like it. You really do seem like a smart guy, so please please start acting like it.

[srlhama]

If bombards can one shot me, why i cant "one shot" they too???

Problem of the weapons is: there is too much mastery folder weapons beging for a buff for so much time that no one use this weapons even if they enjoy the weapon, like Hind( i liked Hind a lot but there is no space for hind farter than Uranus...), Dera, Supra, Panthera, Embolist, Mutalist Quanta, Grinlok...

If MR was used for excuse maybe, but even high tier MR weapons are trash...

[(PSN)thehoocodfather]

Padre, you're a good guy. But this endless self-righteous posturing needs to stop.

 

I've picked out the above quote because it encapsulates your entire attitude: "you're wrong because I say you are".

 

Nothing you say gives you any right to accuse others of what you do. Nothing gives you any right to write off an entire argument because you don't like it. You really do seem like a smart guy, so please please start acting like it.

 

 

There you go again, telling people what to do.

 

Wow.

[Rakosta_Kai]

The only problem with the nerf IMO is that the Synoid and normal Gammacor are essentially sidegrades that serve different purposes, but the damage wasn't nerfed and the efficiency, while bad, isn't unusable for someone with a primary or melee.

 

Sidegrades to what?

Serve different purposes how before the nerf?

 

Stop making stuff up...

 

 

So what you are saying is I can get the Synoid's AOE with a primary or melee out?

 

....That's what I thought.

 

 

1. Man I can use it and it still outbursts my Rakta. Rakta is worse than it still so I dunno why your saying it needs to give it's buff back.

2. It's pretty reasonable as the tradeoff for all that insane damage per second is the low ammo efficency so yeah, it's more than reasonable. It's a bit annoying to run out of ammo, but hey like I said, that's the tradeoff.

3. I very much understand how it got nerf'd and man I like it, I can use other weapons or use it without being invalidated.

4. I suffer from the best thinking around, positive thinking my friend. Bro, can you even Synoid?

 

uh huh...

 

Exactly! You get it now! The nerf was great! I love nerfs! Bring em on baby! I want a Rakta Nerf with another Synoid nerf! Maybe a Marelok Nerf, though leave the Vaykor, I actually own that so I don't want it nerfed, that'd be bad.

 

...

 

Nerf Lovers don't exist...

 

Look up...

[(PSN)thehoocodfather]

I don't own AW so no. Gjallarhorn is an OP weapon that you can use for maybe 3 shots in a game.

Shotguns and fusion rifles in Destiny can't touch anything in Warframe in terms of bad balancing, especially when you look at PvE.

Choppers are choppers. They still are pretty easy to take down for a squad with launchers, a tank with a good gunner, or an attack chopper (that doesn't have the quick repair ability). That's actually a good example of balance.

If BF4 had Warframe levels of imbalance no one would play it.

 

 

If you think choppers are balanced in BF4, you havent played the game.

 

Yes a hit from a tank will take a chopper down.

 

And that is just soooooooooo easy to do isnt it.

 

As for squads shooting down choppers. Oh yeah, like that has ever happened.

 

I am normally the only person shooting down choppers with a stinger or AA in a game, as I hate choppers after what they did in BF3 to the base spawns.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Good for you.

 

You must wear your pants outside your trousers.

 

If I ever see a dude in a cape fly over my house, I will go out into the garden and wave up at you.

 

Most normal people arent like you.

 

You are a special killer bunny.

 

They aint.

 

For them the time, grind and effort meant something.

 

But hey, they wear their pants inside their trousers. 

 

What do they know right ?

I'll tell you my experience getting Soma, because at the time it was the most OP weapon around. I grinded a couple mastery ranks to get it. It took me weeks as I didn't have any slots. I had to grind Nightmare missions I failed probably 80% of the time to put together enough mods to sell for plat, level several items to 30 and grind a few frames, and when I got the Soma I was really happy with its power... for about a week.

But the game was pretty boring while I used it. I could one-shot anything in the star chart by the time I got it to 30. There was no point in me using melee weapons at this point. There was no point in me bringing a bow--I could kill anything with as few shots. T4 didn't exist then and it wouldn't have mattered.

I learned how important balance is because of this game. Soma was the starting point, but a Boltor Prime, Penta, and Amprex finally got it through to me--the items had become so powerful they nullified gameplay. At that point, I was convinced stronger enemies in the forms we received them were the solution, because I wasn't thinking about how it would affect new players or even limit my own playstyles. Yet that's what's happened, and it hasn't made the weapons I have now more fun--it's only made the lesser ones less fun.

[vaugahn]

Look up...

 

All I see is a guy who justified his position having his character attacked by someone who won't confront the issue head on.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

If you think choppers are balanced in BF4, you havent played the game.

 

Yes a hit from a tank will take a chopper down.

 

And that is just soooooooooo easy to do isnt it.

 

As for squads shooting down choppers. Oh yeah, like that has ever happened.

 

I am normally the only person shooting down choppers with a stinger or AA in a game, as I hate choppers after what they did in BF3 to the base spawns.

You realize the gunner can also take down a light chopper, and faster than a chopper can take down the tank? Squads can run inside or use lock-ons to force the chopper to retreat or get killed. Heavy attack choppers and their gunners can cut one down easily. Jets make them look like jokes. Boats and light choppers provide a close matchup. Certain launchers on the map instantly kill them, and the rest can easily destabilize them, causing them to get destroyed. When I play with friends in a squad we often race each other to take the chopper out first, because it's easy. And choppers have a 120+ second spawn delay (depends on the server), so taking one down keeps it down for some time.

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

 

That's easy... Name a good nerf.

Name a nerf to a weapon that restored balance to the game and then maintained it.

 

 

 

 

Really?? What are the numbers? 

Now count the stealth nerfs...

Now count the stealth nerfs to older weapons (those happen too, fyi)...

Now count the nerfs to mechanics that don't actually effect the weapon itself but only seem to affect items that have been complained about....

You offered to provide numerical data...

Do so.

 

 

 

 

I don't have to make claims... It's a fairly simple argument.

 

The only 2 valid arguments operate on a logical fallacy...

 

I can say an argument using supports like balance and power creep are specious and full of fallacies because they simply are.

Those arguments ask to address something going forward when the issue they are complaining about is backward facing.

This is in the face of issues like power creep...

Logical fallacy employed.

It is impossible for xyz weapon to remain at the top tier when competitive weapons are constantly being released.

 

Those arguers don't know what is next on the release roster.

They don't know what the next item's DPS will be.

They are simply assuming it won't be as strong as the thing they are whining about.

 

It's an inherently myopic argument...

 

They only know two things:

What has happened up to the day they decided to whine about it.

That power creep exists and is active.

 

So sure, Synoid got nerfed...

In the process the way the weapon actually works got changed.

 

How did that impact the game other than to waste many hours of player's time?

 

...It didn't.

 

 

 

 

In your opinion balance, as a point of argument, is specious.  It does not make it so.  If the goal of balance is to provide a certain level of difficulty AND provide that their are a large variety of weapons to choose from to match play and aestic style, balance is a perfectly legitimate goal. 

 

However, for the argument to work you need to establish 2 main things. 

 

1st What is endgame enemy difficulty? 

 

T4 20 minutes was the hardest enemies you have to fight to get any single weapon in the game.  (now the trials are a different story due to the 8 vs 4 Tenno teams).  So this is where a top teir weapon should be working hard to keep up the kill rate.  It's effectively as hard as things have to get for you to achieve everything in the game.  That would be your balance point, if a weapon is Top Teir it should perform roughly as well as any other Top Teir weapon at this level.  So if a weapon over performs or trivializes content at that level it needs a nerf, where as a Top Teir weapon that underperforms or is effectively useless at that level needs a buff.  Power balance would work out to about the same thing.

 

You'll note I did not mention Endless content, and that is because you don't balance against endless content.  It's entirely optional, so nothing should be balanced for a never ending battle.

 

Also note that I'd argue the best balancing point would be better placed at T4 40 minutes, which i believe is level 60.

 

Should all weapons be viable to end game?  This is a design question, and my only comment on this is if something requires a certain MR that should determine where in the Weapon Teir it should go, and what weapons it needs to be balanced against.

 

I'd argue frames should all be balanced for end game, but i don't think that's a controversial idea lol.

[Siubijeni]

Really.

You think that collecting 100,000 syndicate points and all the parts and credits to obtain a pre-nerf synoid was easy ?

You think that after all the work those players put in to obtain that weapon, that it should have been over powered ?

Did you have one ? 

 

Been there, done that. It's not hard. You get standing just for playing with the Sigil on, and the Syndicate missions/medallions give a lot more standing. Pre-nerf Synoid was absurd. It had no weaknesses. It was beyond god-tier.

 

I haven't played with the after-nerf Synoid, because I'm leveling things for Mastery. From what I hear, though, it's much more where it should be. Do you really think all of the Syndicate weapons should have been as overpowered as the Gammacor was? That is so broken.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Siubijeni

[WERElektro]

... Why isn't this locked yet?

Can't believe it's still going.

 

Are people that eager to discuss with trolls?

Can't just be nice and hug each other?

 

who wants popcorn?

Edited April 20, 2015 by WEREsandrock

[Radagosh]

just get a primed ammo mutation max it to 10 and replace the attackspeed mod there you go now you have your old synoid gammacore back

[Rakosta_Kai]

Padre, you're a good guy. But this endless self-righteous posturing needs to stop.

 

I've picked out the above quote because it encapsulates your entire attitude: "you're wrong because I say you are".

 

Nothing you say gives you any right to accuse others of what you do. Nothing gives you any right to write off an entire argument because you don't like it. You really do seem like a smart guy, so please please start acting like it.

Vaugahn,

 

You seem to like deriding others for Strawman arguments and ad hominems.

Then you try to play one?

tsk... tsk...

 

FWIW..

You aren't wrong because I say you are...

You are wrong because you simply are.

Logic dictates that as fact.

Power Creep proves that fact to be so.

Balance says you are because Power Creep told it to.

 

A balance debate regarding weapons in Warframe is a fool's errand...

You, amongst others in this thread, still tilt at windmills though.

 

This time you did it at my expense...

[Jeigo]

Is this the "loaded question" thread?

Why would you never want to nerf something? Why do you love power creep? Do you look forward to WF a year from now when all the weapons you've purchased and built now are useless and everyone is using Boltor Prime 2.0? R U STPUID?????

Your answer is right here OP, don't ignore it.

[vaugahn]

Vaugahn,

 

You seem to like deriding others for Strawman arguments and ad hominems.

Then you try to play one?

tsk... tsk...

 

The classic example: a senator argues for a pay raise for senators, and a reporter says "of course he'd want that, he's a senator!"

 

An ad hominem is something very specific. It's when someone makes an argument, but you attempt to deride their character to discredit that argument. In the case of the senator, or here, the character is directly related to the argument, and it's not a fallacy.

 

You aren't wrong because I say you are...

You are wrong because you simply are.

Logic dictates that as fact.

Power Creep proves that fact to be so.

Balance says you are because Power Creep told it to.

 

This is nothing but posturing. You can't say logic dictates something, when you have not provided a single logical reason as to why. This is just a fancy form of a kid sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling back at the person he's fighting with. Your logic has not dictated anything. Power creep has proven nothing other than its own existence. 

 

A balance debate regarding weapons in Warframe is a fool's errand...

You, amongst others in this thread, still tilt at windmills though.

 

This time you did it at my expense...

 

And here's the prime example. You have nothing to say, why even bother?

[ArbitUHM]

Good for you.

 

You must wear your pants outside your trousers.

 

If I ever see a dude in a cape fly over my house, I will go out into the garden and wave up at you.

 

Most normal people arent like you.

 

You are a special killer bunny.

 

They aint.

 

For them the time, grind and effort meant something.

 

But hey, they wear their pants inside their trousers. 

 

What do they know right ? 

Did you know?

 

You don't have to press enter twice after every sentence.

 

It's true.

 

Try it.

 

You'll find your posts will be much more readable.

 

They will take up less space, too.

 

Honest.

 

It works.

 

Do it.

 

edit: haha the other guy types the same way

Edited April 20, 2015 by ArbitUHM

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Sidegrades to what?

Serve different purposes how before the nerf?

 

Stop making stuff up...

 

 

So what you are saying is I can get the Synoid's AOE with a primary or melee out?

 

....That's what I thought.

Look up...

I said the bad thing about the nerf is that they're sidegrades to each other. I was discussing what's bad about the nerf you seem to dislike.

[(PSN)fizzer94]

I rest easy knowing that DE will never listen to the OP because of his behavior in this S#&$show of a thread.

Good job effectively silencing yourself, bud.

[Rakosta_Kai]

In your opinion balance, as a point of argument, is specious.  It does not make it so.  If the goal of balance is to provide a certain level of difficulty AND provide that their are a large variety of weapons to choose from to match play and aestic style, balance is a perfectly legitimate goal. 

 

However, for the argument to work you need to establish 2 main things. 

 

1st What is endgame enemy difficulty? 

 

T4 20 minutes was the hardest enemies you have to fight to get any single weapon in the game.  (now the trials are a different story due to the 8 vs 4 Tenno teams).  So this is where a top teir weapon should be working hard to keep up the kill rate.  It's effectively as hard as things have to get for you to achieve everything in the game.  That would be your balance point, if a weapon is Top Teir it should perform roughly as well as any other Top Teir weapon at this level.  So if a weapon over performs or trivializes content at that level it needs a nerf, where as a Top Teir weapon that underperforms or is effectively useless at that level needs a buff.  Power balance would work out to about the same thing.

 

You'll note I did not mention Endless content, and that is because you don't balance against endless content.  It's entirely optional, so nothing should be balanced for a never ending battle.

 

Also note that I'd argue the best balancing point would be better placed at T4 40 minutes, which i believe is level 60.

 

Should all weapons be viable to end game?  This is a design question, and my only comment on this is if something requires a certain MR that should determine where in the Weapon Teir it should go, and what weapons it needs to be balanced against.

 

I'd argue frames should all be balanced for end game, but i don't think that's a controversial idea lol.

And ...

Look forward.

 

Backward lies only one balance argument...

It's the question of and cause for buffs.

Which is an interesting question on it's own as weapons aren't transparently tiered.

That means you have to go by feel in order to determine if something is under-powered/over-powered. (which you described)

And Rotation C x2 is the toughest according to Sheldon a few Devstreams ago. That's where the guaranteed good stuff got stocked.

So that's the mark to hit...

 

Forward is the subject you folks keep trampling all over...

It's why both nerfs and buffs are supposed to happen.

It accounts for both future content and power creep.

It accounts for more than you, or I, have relevant knowledge of regarding both subjects.

What we do know is that power creep exists and weapons of similar strength or efficacy will be made available in the future.

It's constant.

That's fact.

 

What every person advocating a nerf basically said is, "Nothing is going to be released that's stronger than the Synoid."

There already were relevant contenders to the Synoid (not counting that aoe...maybe.) before it's efficiency nerf.

The nerf cost players the AOE... which was the whole reason to have a syndicate weapon, imo.

I still use it, but I don't trust it... You should never be able to say that about a hard to acquire weapon.

 

I appreciate you sharing your insights though!

[Letter13]

Meta-complaints don't really get much done. Especially inflammatory ones.

 

People are allowed to dislike whatever they want, it's their opinion. If someone feels there's something that's too overpowered or too unbalanced, they're welcome to voice their feelings and suggest that it be changed.

 

Just because you don't agree with someone's feedback doesn't magically make it invalid. It's just that you hold a differing opinion than they do.

 

Locking.