Ronyn Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) Its not called freedom of choice if by choosing to use utility mods like radar mods i gimping my damage. Freedom of choice is only possible when every choice is equally viable. That's an ideal solution, but not realistically possible. Some mods will be better no matter what they do. I dont know... off the top of my head.... If enemy radar mods also increased the damage you do on unaware enemies they would gain increased combat function. If loot radar mods increased how many energy orbs droped it would gain extra use as well. the trick is to accept that certain atributes arent going to be as desirable and se if there is another attribute that makes sense to inherently pair with it. Edited January 16, 2013 by Ronyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volt_Cruelerz Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) If loot radar did actually increase the drop rate of all forms of loot, then it would actually be useful. If enemy radar got paired with %crit chance as a mod, that might work out.. Edited January 16, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malachia Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Freedom of choice is only possible when every choice is equally viable. Uhh... Yeah dude, thats exactly what I said o.O I dont get your point you just quoted me and reworded what I said lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Uhh... Yeah dude, thats exactly what I said o.O I dont get your point you just quoted me and reworded what I said lol LOL. I was agreeing with you...not arguing. I should have put a "yep!" in front of my statement it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) Freedom of choice is only possible when every choice is equally viable. I dont know... off the top of my head.... If enemy radar mods also increased the damage you do on unaware enemies they would gain increased combat function. If loot radar mods increased how many energy orbs droped it would gain extra use as well. the trick is to accept that certain atributes arent going to be as desirable and se if there is another attribute that makes sense to inherently pair with it. Enemy radar has an artifact, no one would waste a mod slot on it. Your loot radar suggestion would clash with power efficency mods' role. You're simplifying how hard it is to balance different mods against each other. Taking lesser mods out of the equation makes it much easier to do so. Edited January 16, 2013 by Aggh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 enemy radar might become viable, but your loot radar suggestion would clash with power efficency mods role. It was just a random idea to illistrate my point...I'm not attached to it. but still I wouldnt call that "clashing" I would call that synergy. having good efficiency and a good amount of orbs would let you use powers A LOT and if thats your goal youd be happy. Much like having both sprint speed and increased stamina...great combo to zoom around consistantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAN3MK Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 This things could balance themselves out as the game gets more indepth in terms of content and difficulty and when people start playing in more organised squads rather than random groups. An example: You load the Rhino with Shields/Armor/Health/Melee Dmg/Power Duration and let him run at the front of the group, picking aggro and tanking the majority of the damage for the group, The Mag or Trinity in the group is loaded with supportive mods in the form of Radars/Power Duration/Power Efficiency/Power Range and have her support the team and/or debuff the enemies. Your Loki or Ash can be loaded with any sort of pure damaging mods or power boosting mods depending on whether he wants to be the sniper and use powers to get to a position that provides better oportunities or he wants to be trickster who wants to fool around with enemies and get behind them, close and personal. And finally, you can have a well (or over the top) balanced damage dealers at the form of Ember/Volt/Excalibur, with their sole role of dealing damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakalwe Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Is anyone going to actually pick a loot radar mod realistically over a good combat mod? No. Even if you give full-map coverage, I don't think it would be used. In cases like that, it's probably best to just throw them in as the default. If the theoretical maximum power of a mod won't get it used, make it an intrinsic property of the frame or throw it out. If they did something like this: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/4248-a-very-simple-way-to-enhance-play-add-a-very-rare-chance-to-find-rare-items-in-lockerscrates/ then the loot mod would serve a purpose, I'd certainly take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malachia Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Enemy radar has an artifact, no one would waste a mod slot on it. Your loot radar suggestion would clash with power efficency mods' role. You're simplifying how hard it is to balance different mods against each other. Taking lesser mods out of the equation makes it much easier to do so. Who would give up energy siphon to use enemy radar as an artifact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakalwe Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Who would give up energy siphon to use enemy radar as an artifact? Do they stack? If not then I guess the idea is to make a squad and balance the artifacts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) Who would give up energy siphon to use enemy radar as an artifact? Who would give up shields/melee damage/shield recharge/sprint speed/armor for enemy radar? Also, you don't really need more than one or two energy siphons in a squad. It was just a random idea to illistrate my point...I'm not attached to it. but still I wouldnt call that "clashing" I would call that synergy. having good efficiency and a good amount of orbs would let you use powers A LOT and if thats your goal youd be happy. Much like having both sprint speed and increased stamina...great combo to zoom around consistantly. You alread can spam powers with good pe mods with the current energy drop rate. It would be pointless :| Edited January 16, 2013 by Aggh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) You alread can spam powers with good pe mods with the current energy drop rate. It would be pointless :| Your loot radar suggestion would clash with power efficency mods' role. really? we are going to hold on to that one random idea? Ok. three things. 1:Do people really need the option to have both reload speed mods and clip copacity mods? The point is that when combined they let you keep firing your gun with little downtime. that is synergy..that is the idea of mods that are two sides of the same coin. 2: do not confuse current balance with intended function. That means that at certain points in the game right now you may be able to spam abilities but that balance may shift. The idea of creating a mod build that maximizes ability usage is pretty straight forward. 3: Ive been playing a whole lot and I have yet to get more than one small PE mod. In a game with random mod drops its very possible that youll end up with a different build than mine in hopes to acheive the same effect. Enemy radar has an artifact, no one would waste a mod slot on it. yet some would argue there are better artifacts to slot in.... You're simplifying how hard it is to balance different mods against each other. not at all. Im just pointing out the direction to start looking in. Taking lesser mods out of the equation makes it much easier to do so. when you take out "lesser mods" you have to make sure you dont loose specific functions. It can cause its own set of problems. Nothing in game development is particularly easy. Edited January 16, 2013 by Ronyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malachia Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Who would give up shields/melee damage/shield recharge/sprint speed/armor for enemy radar? Also, you don't really need more than one or two energy siphons in a squad. First of all i think the whole conversation in this thread is about that fact that the answer to that question right now is "no one". Second, about not needing more than one or two siphons... There is no way to tell what your squad mates might be bringing with them, and your artifacts dont work if you join mid-game. This would be relevant if you would have a clan or something that makes pre-made groups and you can arrange who brings what artifact with you before the game starts. This is rare i think, if it happens at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 First of all i think the whole conversation in this thread is about that fact that the answer to that question right now is "no one". exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamWorkTom Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) Stuff that dosn't actually add anything to your suite should be included in rare mods as a bonus. Meaning if you have a melee damage/shield mod it could randomly role loot radar as a bonus. The bonus does nothing to increase your power but it makes the mod that much more valuable. Thus your mod would have 3 stats instead of two. Melee damage/increased shield/loot radar, the 3rd stat on the mod does not increase power but increases the awesomeness of the mod. Edited January 16, 2013 by TeamWorkTom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) First of all i think the whole conversation in this thread is about that fact that the answer to that question right now is "no one". Duh? But thinking that every single mod can be properly balanced against each other properly is expecting to much. Separating them into categories like the OP is suggesting makes balancing them much simpler. Second, about not needing more than one or two siphons... There is no way to tell what your squad mates might be bringing with them, and your artifacts dont work if you join mid-game. This would be relevant if you would have a clan or something that makes pre-made groups and you can arrange who brings what artifact with you before the game starts. This is rare i think, if it happens at all. Or you can just ask people to switch up their artificats on the next run. I've never been in a squad that only did one run. Stuff that dosn't actually add anything to your suite should be included in rare mods as a bonus. Meaning if you have a melee damage/shield mod it could randomly role loot radar as a bonus. The bonus does nothing to increase your power but it makes the mod that much more valuable. Only if you have a chance of having the loot radar on top of good bonuses. It needs to be a separate property that people don't have to choose over other things. really? we are going to hold on to that one random idea? Ok. three things. 1:Do people really need the option to have both reload speed mods and clip copacity mods? The point is that when combined they let you keep firing your gun with little downtime. that is synergy..that is the idea of mods that are two sides of the same coin. Low capacity weapons like the bronco benefit more from reload speed mods than clip capacity. Use an example that you understand next time. 2: do not confuse current balance with intended function. That means that at certain points in the game right now you may be able to spam abilities but that balance may shift. The idea of creating a mod build that maximizes ability usage is pretty straight forward. Your balance suggestion wasn't given any context within any overarching changes to the current balance. Now if energy drops were decreased, your balance suggestion might have some value, but as it is, having more energy orbs drop would serve much purpose to someone with good PE mods and there would be very little reason to pick such a mod over good PE mods. 3: Ive been playing a whole lot and I have yet to get more than one small PE mod. In a game with random mod drops its very possible that youll end up with a different build than mine in hopes to acheive the same effect. That just means you have bad luck, it doesn't make them any less relevant to balance discussions. yet some would argue there are better artifacts to slot in.... Except you have three other people that can put on other artifacts. That option doesn't exist with mods. not at all. Im just pointing out the direction to start looking in. It's a direction everyone brings up in every game balance discussion in every game out there. Perfect balance is impossible for most developers. the suggestion that mods merely need to be changed when you take out "lesser mods" you have to make sure you dont loose specific functions. It can cause its own set of problems. No one said anything about taking them out. Separating them into categorized slots as the OP suggested would mean that people could use lesser mods without making major sacrifices. Nothing in game development is particularly easy. Duh? But making it uncessarily harder is stupid. Edited January 16, 2013 by Aggh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) Duh? LOL..you brought that statement on yourself. Duh? But thinkin that every single mod can be properly balanced against each other properly is expecting to much. maybe..maybe not. How about we at least try? Separating them into categories like the OP is suggestion makes balancing them much simpler. Balance gets simpler but some freedom is lost. Edited January 16, 2013 by Ronyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volt_Cruelerz Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 The social window seems to indicate clans are coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) LOL..you brought that statement on yourself. maybe..maybe not. How about we at least try? Balance gets simpler but some freedom is lost. Um no. Putting loot radar into a separate slot category gives more freedom since you can have it and not have to give up on other mods that are more relevant to gameplay. Did you and sikab even bother reading the OP? Edited January 16, 2013 by Aggh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsmeha Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 The social window seems to indicate clans are coming. Clans have been here. If we put a new mod tree system it's going to stagnate builds. Take a look at League of Legends mastery system. The spotlight videos build almost all the heroes of their archetype the exact same. Pro's use the same masteries to min/max. Someone said it before, but it's going to end up with everyone running melee mods because they're the most viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Um no. Putting loot radar into a separate slot category gives more freedom since you can have it and not have to give up on other mods that are more relevant to gameplay. Did you and sikab even bother reading the OP? I do mean to cause confusion on what I am speaking about. I understand that the OP suggested adding "additional" slots for support stuff. Which obviously doesnt mess with our existing slot choices in a negative way. However I am speaking about mod options in general. My underlying point is that the more balanced the mod options are the better overall. While we could look for solutions of changing the system, we could also look for solutions to fix the existing set up. At any rate if the support mods are the same three options then why not just make them all standard abilities.... which is what someone suggested earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) Clans have been here. If we put a new mod tree system it's going to stagnate builds. Take a look at League of Legends mastery system. The spotlight videos build almost all the heroes of their archetype the exact same. Pro's use the same masteries to min/max. Someone said it before, but it's going to end up with everyone running melee mods because they're the most viable. And the current mod system won't stagnate? There will always be a superior build. Adding slots that can only use utility mods like loot radar and whatever else they can come up with would keep the same level of customization we have now but make some of the subpar mods useable. Also, standard builds are a part of any competitive game. Take a a look at MTG. Every type II tournament is dominated by a small handful of deck builds. Even vintage, where you can use just about any card release in the last 20 years you still see particular builds in every single top 8. No matter what game, there are always a small handful of best builds and competition finds them. I do mean to cause confusion on what I am speaking about. I understand that the OP suggested adding "additional" slots for support stuff. Which obviously doesnt mess with our existing slot choices in a negative way. However I am speaking about mod options in general. My underlying point is that the more balanced the mod options are the better overall. While we could look for solutions of changing the system, we could also look for solutions to fix the existing set up. So apparently people should be mind readers so that they can know that you're not actually taking part in the disucssion at hand. I'll take a note of that for future reference. At any rate if the support mods are the same three options then why not just make them all standard abilities.... which is what someone suggested earlier. Because that takes out freedom of choice :| Edited January 16, 2013 by Aggh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 And the current mod system won't stagnate? There will always be a superior build. Adding slots that can only use utility mods like loot radar and whatever else they can come up with would keep the same level of customization we have now but make some of the subpar mods useable. Also, standard builds are a part of any competitive game. Take a a look at MTG. Every type II tournament is dominated by a small handful of deck builds. Even vintage, where you can use just about any card release in the last 20 years you still see particular builds in every single top 8. No matter what game, there are always a small handful of best builds and competition finds them. That is arguably true, as all sytems stagnate without new content and all "best builds" will be challenged by some members of the comminuty who make alternative builds work just as well. Either way the goal of the desighner is often to build freedom into the system as much as possible. So apparently people should be mind readers so that they can know that you're not actually taking part in the disucssion at hand. I'll take a note of that for future reference. Respectfully, I did say "I do not mean to cause confusion"... I acknowledged that I was the one making it confusing. So show some respect and understanding for goodness sake Because that takes out freedom of choice :| Its only freedom of choice if there is actually a choice to make. If there are exactly 3 mod slots and exactly three different options... Freedom is something of an illusion. I suppose you good have a REALLY big enemy radar. lol but the minimap is only so large so one is enough. Now if there are more than 3 choices and 3 mod slots then freedom comes into play and its best to let people choose. hence why I said IF there are only 3 choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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