Proposed Starchart Changes [Megathread]

[RankoMiji]

I feel as if I have to much freedom in this game so by them limiting my choice will make me more of a honwsy tenno

[MortalSage]

Do you like RNG the way it is now? How you have to do 1 mission 100 times to get 1 prime part. RNG was already poorly made and now its just going to get worse.

Like I said i'll wait to pass judgment until I get it but rng is an admitted issue that I think has to be adressed in more than one part of the game. When more lore can be added i think it'll help alot.

[Sziklamester]

Not a fan of it we see that.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Sziklamester

[Witcherlet]

I have mixed feelings towards this whole idea. On one hand, reducing the number of nodes is good, but the execution so far in theory is questionable at best.

 

First of all, do not take away the choice completely from us and do not make it completely random. I'd be fine with a system where there are level ranges and let's say 5-6 nodes per each leveling range with random faction combo, where 1 node is a random boss from that lvl range, 1 endless mission type and 3-4 missions of other type.

 

So for example if we would split the game into 4 mob lvl ranges that would give us 4 bosses, 4 endless missions and 12 other missions to select from rotating daily.

 

Also the public matchmaking system could include the MR in forming squads. With less nodes the space would become more crowded and while new players would get help from higher MRs it would not be healthy for them to be carried through their entire game experience.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

-There needs to be no pointlessly reiterated nodes. Any planet that has a mission type more than once should have the extras removed. That alone would remove nearly 100 nodes.

-Every remaining mission should have some kind of reward. The reward additions were a major reason why Spy 2.0 is much more popular than Spy 1.0. These rewards should be available from a variety of locations and mission types, allowing us to work towards one reward without grinding the same mission over and over.

-Every remaining mission should have its own story. Instead of being "Jupiter Rescue" it should be "Rescue this detained prisoner who knows something about Alad V's plans."

-Every lower to mid level planet should have one node that isn't necessary for progression (as a new player) but has increased (level 35-40) difficulty. The mission type could change daily to allow for more variation without playerbase dilution, but this node would be purely an addition and not a replacement of other ones.

-Void missions should be accessable from each starchart mission (level 10 and up), which would have a Void portal near the end. Once players go through this portal (when one opens it with a Void key, which would be nondescript and not restricted to a certain mission type) the others would have the option to continue or quit, like Defense. This will keep higher level players around to help newbies clear the majority of missions. The Void mission would generally be of the same type and difficulty as the normal mission, although non-endless modes of Rescue and Deception would lead to Void Interception and Defense.

With this, nearly half the missions have been removed, while incentive has been added for players to return to the lower-middle starchart missions.

[Vargras]

Lets say they do play. But who cares? They don't play to progress "like" us. They play for the sake of playing and even then they are busy as hell so they play for an hour or so once a week. Also they don't even have to farm anything when they have infinite platinum's to get what they want, when they want. Lets assume they tried to farm something. They will end up buying it when they couldn't.

 

Do not compare developers to the players.

And yet again, you prove how silly and short-sighted you are. They do not have "infinite platinum" -- I've played numerous games with DE staff who were out and about, farming for resources (many of those were with Glen, who was trying to get morphics). And those same staff do play extensively. In fact, Glen just made some changes to the way enemies behave while blinded, because of his own experiences while playing the game.

 

Quit making assumptions. It's not doing you any favors.

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

I have mixed feelings towards this whole idea. On one hand, reducing the number of nodes is good, but the execution so far in theory is questionable at best.

 

First of all, do not take away the choice completely from us and do not make it completely random. I'd be fine with a system where there are level ranges and let's say 5-6 nodes per each leveling range with random faction combo, where 1 node is a random boss from that lvl range, 1 endless mission type and 3-4 missions of other type.

 

So for example if we would split the game into 4 mob lvl ranges that would give us 4 bosses, 4 endless missions and 12 other missions to select from rotating daily.

 

Also the public matchmaking system could include the MR in forming squads. With less nodes the space would become more crowded and while new players would get help from higher MRs it would not be healthy for them to be carried through their entire game experience.

Basing games off of MR or Trueskill causes major wait problems in some games.

Not everyone is MR18(19). This can cause extra wait time looking for games. High MR players usually want to get as many games as fast as possible. This can vary from farming resources to completing dailes like alerts or syndicates.

 

How would MR be applied to MM to ensure faster MM?

I use Titanfall as an example of attempted Trueskill gone wrong. The starting system without it was actually faster and better.

[varais]

first of all, thank you, rebecca, for your ongoing best work to translate from us players to the dev's and vice versa, glad that a woman do it and that you are not that serious about as the guys, as it looks like, thats true lotus-qualities as well as i can understand the "fathers of warframe" too ... we have a more then sensitive case :)

i loved the former star-chart and seeing it again in this thread brings back the memories as i started conciously my way through the warframe-universe

 

i also liked the design-change because it doesnt change my way, as this change happened i was nearly through and in the middle of my MRing and more ...

i see also i have less information to get a real whole picture right now so i wait for more information in the next dev-streams

as well as: please, make it more understandable for us, DE, thank you ,-)

[Syln]

"DE give us a sign"

 

hit us baby one more time ! ... "vanish"

[(PSN)Kitehighland]

Personally looking forwards to seeing what the changes bring. Loving the idea of bringing more players together.

[optyk]

I don't know if any of you played Star Wars Galaxies, the developer pushed and forced a major change that everyone thought was a bad idea (NGE update), it literally killed the game over a short period of time, lead to droves of players quitting and killed the game completely within a year.

 

This was a previously very successful MMO.

 

I'm not saying this is the same thing, I'm saying it could be and that DE should take this more seriously than they are here, when a dev says "we know players are going to be really really mad about this but we are going to do it anyway" that's worrying.

 

I would advise DE to read up on the NGE update on Star Wars Galaxies to see how fast a successful game can be destroyed with a really bad desicion.

 

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/26/a-star-wars-galaxies-history-lesson-from-launch-to-the-nge-5/

^100% This.

 

Sadly, the majority of Warframe players have no idea what the hell you're talking about. DE most likely doesn't even know what the hell you're talking about -and thats worse.

 

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/5792-gordon-walton-are-you-the-one-who-brought-us-the-nge/

[Witcherlet]

Basing games off of MR or Trueskill causes major wait problems in some games.

Not everyone is MR18(19). This can cause extra wait time looking for games. High MR players usually want to get as many games as fast as possible. This can vary from farming resources to completing dailes like alerts or syndicates.

 

How would MR be applied to MM to ensure faster MM?

I use Titanfall as an example of attempted Trueskill gone wrong. The starting system without it was actually faster and better.

 

I was more thinking of making wide MR ranges like 0-5, 5-10 and 10-20 for example. Or at least making making 0-5 play with themselves to learn the basics of the game and movement at their own pace without being dragged like a sack of potatoes through missions. It can be confusing and not everyone enjoys it.

 

But I understand it might create more trouble than it is worth, just throwing a suggestion. The available at a time mission types are a far bigger concern for all of us.

[Psyclone_Joker]

I just want to reiterate this and add a supplemental remark afterwards: 

 

 

This is a whiteboard - this is everyone talking, thinking, communicating, writing, erasing, repeat -  and this what makes working together at DE so rewarding. In this Devstream we had this conversation openly with each other and with you all, not because we wanted to show you the stone chiseled tablet of what is coming, but because we wanted to discuss openly what we've been discussing off-camera. Sharing what we've been struggling with, what we've wanted to achieve. Could it have been more polished? Probably - but we're not ready to polish what we're still actively figuring out.  

What's been invaluable about the surrounding discussion is where your reactions focus on what you'd like to see and what you'd hate to lose - this mirrors our conversations. These discussions are strongest when the ad-hominem is left out, though. So please keep that in mind. 

Next Devstream will pick up where we left off, and we're working on figuring out a Dev Workshop-style post on what we want to do with the Star Chart. Warframe has always changed and evolved, and as this chapter starts off with bang as the goals are candidly discussed. The ignition of dramatic energy surely reflects on how much everyone cares about this, but this chapter is just beginning. Onward to Dev Workshops, discussions, and more. 

 

I really hope you and some of the others can talk some sense into them. I really don't want more RNG in this game. I don't want a situation where I have to log into the game like,

 

"I wonder if I can have fun today. Better roll the dice and see what missions I get. Welp looks like I have to craft the missions I actually want to play, better get to grinding missions I hate for materials."

 

I also hope they actually let you speak next time instead of just making silly little jokes while you're trying to talk. I like the lighthearted nature of the stream but when someone is trying to talk about something serious it's very lame to see one guy trying to draw attention away from that with his antics. This is especially true when you're trying to raise community concerns. When someone is goofing off/not listening when you're bringing up community concerns it really feels like he doesn't care too much about them, which is worrying to say the least.

[ThePresident777]

What is even worse than made up fear is made up optimism, made up wait-and-see.  History is real and so is the push back.  And DE knows this because they anticipated the push back on Devstream #52.

 

Made up answers to selective quotes that ignore the pre-response to the response are also real.

[Lukap99]

What do you think is better?

A progressive star-chart (a la Super Mario Bros 3, NSMB,...) that focuses on the narrative and builds up to that planet's boss, along with a few side missions sprinkled in (Warframe cryopod detected; Resource carrier ship detected, etc).

 

Or;

 

A more "what you see is what you get" star-chart; where the options are consist of what gamemode you want to play and what tileset is available.

[vaugahn]

What is even worse than made up fear is made up optimism, made up wait-and-see.  History is real and so is the push back.  And DE knows this because they anticipated the push back on Devstream #52.

 

Made up answers to selective quotes that ignore the pre-response to the response are also real.

 

What you're doing is known in the real world as fear-mongering. It's just as bad as mindless acceptance, if not worse.

[DiosGX]

Even after reading these latest few pages of replies, I'm still adamant that having (bi)weekly voting for what mission types are available on a per-planet basis would:

 

1> Encourage people to finally get to Pluto on their own (stop asking for a taxi. it's really not hard to get to pluto (I have had an MR17 ask for a taxi to pluto before))

2> Get people to actually play together which I have not had happen since I started this game last year

3> Get people to STOP SPAMMING ****ING DARK SECTOR DEFENSE AND NOTHING ELSE FOR CREDITS LIKE HOLY F*** YOU GUYS WHAT THE F***

 

Now, you know what we truly need in this game with these revised changes? The OroKitty Honor List.

For each cycle of mission types, the Orokin Kitty is hidden in the missions somewhere. Scanning it with a codex/synth scanner gets you a point. The points do absolutely nothing at all! It's just there to show who's been busy the most.

 

Seriously make OroKitty a gameplay statistic somehow. Maybe we'll stop seeing threads every other week about "OMGWTFISTHIS"

o3o

[AlexanderJ]

I like this idea though its not really explained what exactly will happen. The idea of giving more of a point to nodes that aren't really played has been a goal for a long time ( revamps of missions like spy and rescue) and I think this heads in the right direction

 

What im hoping for is a star chart that is still planet based and each day the lotus will kinda give you a mission for each planet ( kinda like a planet wide alert) 20 missions ( all mission types mixed in.) With set rewards 

 

Example: The corpus have started mass producing Zanuka on Jupiter,  These twenty missions follow this objective leading up to a final reward after obtaining set mini awards for the other missions.

 

OR 

 

Example two: On earth the grineer have found a vault and intend to open it being led by vor. stop his fleet and kill him. Now at any time during any of the twenty missions Vor and his special squad can appear and attempt to fight you but may run until you get to his assination mission and if enough people don't participate then he moves on to the next planet the next day or actually gets into the vault and the grineer for a period of time become stronger.

 

Also this could be a very good way to introduce some small lore by making certain missions appear for a set dealing with the story line of smaller characters like Maroon and Darvo giving us a chance to do things for them more often but on a much smaller scale than a large event maybe even giving the Syndicates their own planet alerts like New Loka wishes to exterminate the Infested in a sector on earth you click the sector and it opens the option to twenty nodes which you can do to " Purify" That sector and all the while getting standing and getting to be led by your syndicate leaders ( not the lotus though we all love you id like to have some of the other characters leading us sometimes :3)

[Psychus]

Or your experience involved enjoying more than 20 different missions... Because think about it. There are 11 mission types that work with all tilesets (combining Hive and Sabotage, and Survival and Excavation). Multiply that by 13, for the planets, and you have 143. Now add in four types of Archwing missions and you have 147. With the way it sounds now, you'll be able to play 20 of those missions on any given day. Just 20, just 1/7. Only one mission you like? Play it and then log out. No missions you like today? Log out, find a different game. No missions you like again? Play that different game again. Again, no missions you like? Time to start playing that other game first. Maybe you can check on Warframe every week or so... wait... there's only one mission you like. Why are you bothering to check again?

^That would be a worse case scenario, but DE's done absolutely nothing to suggest that it isn't what's going to happen. Which is why we need, as the OP calls it, "a sign".

okay, gonna say this slow for you. it's. a. business. Why the F***, why the actual F*** would DE convince you NOT to play their game for a week or two at a time? It makes no sense on both business and personal fronts. 

You're looking for worst case scenarios like I keep  telling people NOT to do. After dealing with good and bad from DE for 2 years, I can personally say that the change will either be great for the game's longevity and stay, or it'll be a massive mistake and everyone says they'll stop playing and it'll be reverted shortly after it's done. 

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

I was more thinking of making wide MR ranges like 0-5, 5-10 and 10-20 for example. Or at least making making 0-5 play with themselves to learn the basics of the game and movement at their own pace without being dragged like a sack of potatoes through missions. It can be confusing and not everyone enjoys it.

 

But I understand it might create more trouble than it is worth, just throwing a suggestion. The available at a time mission types are a far bigger concern for all of us.

This is a good guide to average bot difficulty but not for MM.

 

Even after reading these latest few pages of replies, I'm still adamant that having (bi)weekly voting for what mission types are available on a per-planet basis would:

 

1> Encourage people to finally get to Pluto on their own (stop asking for a taxi. it's really not hard to get to pluto (I have had an MR17 ask for a taxi to pluto before))

2> Get people to actually play together which I have not had happen since I started this game last year

3> Get people to STOP SPAMMING ****ING DARK SECTOR DEFENSE AND NOTHING ELSE FOR CREDITS LIKE HOLY F*** YOU GUYS WHAT THE F***

 

Now, you know what we truly need in this game with these revised changes? The OroKitty Honor List.

For each cycle of mission types, the Orokin Kitty is hidden in the missions somewhere. Scanning it with a codex/synth scanner gets you a point. The points do absolutely nothing at all! It's just there to show who's been busy the most.

 

Seriously make OroKitty a gameplay statistic somehow. Maybe we'll stop seeing threads every other week about "OMGWTFISTHIS"

o3o

Nessies in Titanfall lol

 

I like this idea though its not really explained what exactly will happen. The idea of giving more of a point to nodes that aren't really played has been a goal for a long time ( revamps of missions like spy and rescue) and I think this heads in the right direction

 

What im hoping for is a star chart that is still planet based and each day the lotus will kinda give you a mission for each planet ( kinda like a planet wide alert) 20 missions ( all mission types mixed in.) With set rewards 

 

Example: The corpus have started mass producing Zanuka on Jupiter,  These twenty missions follow this objective leading up to a final reward after obtaining set mini awards for the other missions.

 

OR 

 

Example two: On earth the grineer have found a vault and intend to open it being led by vor. stop his fleet and kill him. Now at any time during any of the twenty missions Vor and his special squad can appear and attempt to fight you but may run until you get to his assination mission and if enough people don't participate then he moves on to the next planet the next day or actually gets into the vault and the grineer for a period of time become stronger.

 

Also this could be a very good way to introduce some small lore by making certain missions appear for a set dealing with the story line of smaller characters like Maroon and Darvo giving us a chance to do things for them more often but on a much smaller scale than a large event maybe even giving the Syndicates their own planet alerts like New Loka wishes to exterminate the Infested in a sector on earth you click the sector and it opens the option to twenty nodes which you can do to " Purify" That sector and all the while getting standing and getting to be led by your syndicate leaders ( not the lotus though we all love you id like to have some of the other characters leading us sometimes :3)

Would crafting missions allow boss acess or would this be the only option to see bosses?

[(PSN)pine1519]

I wouldn't mind something like each planet has one of each mission type, rather than each planet having what they have now.

 

Or something like Destiny, with Weekly and Daily challenges that offer maybe t4 keys, prime parts, VAUBAN PARTS. 

 

I already have Vauban, but the fact that he needs to be put somewhere remains.

[Psyclone_Joker]

Even after reading these latest few pages of replies, I'm still adamant that having (bi)weekly voting for what mission types are available on a per-planet basis would:

 

1> Encourage people to finally get to Pluto on their own (stop asking for a taxi. it's really not hard to get to pluto (I have had an MR17 ask for a taxi to pluto before))

2> Get people to actually play together which I have not had happen since I started this game last year

3> Get people to STOP SPAMMING ****ING DARK SECTOR DEFENSE AND NOTHING ELSE FOR CREDITS LIKE HOLY F*** YOU GUYS WHAT THE F***

 

Now, you know what we truly need in this game with these revised changes? The OroKitty Honor List.

For each cycle of mission types, the Orokin Kitty is hidden in the missions somewhere. Scanning it with a codex/synth scanner gets you a point. The points do absolutely nothing at all! It's just there to show who's been busy the most.

 

Seriously make OroKitty a gameplay statistic somehow. Maybe we'll stop seeing threads every other week about "OMGWTFISTHIS"

o3o

 

People are going to play missions based on what they want. If they want credits, a specific type of resource, a warframe part, etc. No system is going to just randomly have people playing missions because they are there. I've asked a bunch of people why they go after those synthesis scans each week. You know what most of them said? "Just in case they add a reward later on." The other few I asked said they're doing it because they're interested in the lore. None of them said, "Because it's there."

 

Let me put it in another way. The current system can make me work towards things I didn't want at first. If I'm in the void trying to get the parts for some prime frame but I instead get a lot of parts for a prime weapon it can make me go, "Hm I only need one more part for this weapon, I guess I'll try to get that." Suddenly I'm playing a mission I wasn't going to and building something I had no intention of building just because I was so close to it. Maybe I'll hate it, maybe I'll love it, but at least it's making me try new things. With the new system I'll just see what's avabile and go, "Nope, none of that looks good, maybe tomorrow I can play."

 

I feel like a lot of the problems in the current star chart are actually problems with the reward systems. We have all these dead nodes because they do nothing for players. So the solution to this problem isn't to make a system where players can sometimes ONLY play on nodes that do nothing for them, that's awful. The solution is to make a system that rewards players for playing modes or nodes they don't often play on. "You haven't played a spy mission in a while, you'll get this if you do." Kinda like a personalized alert system that interacts with you based on how you play.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Psyclone_Joker

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

okay, gonna say this slow for you. it's. a. business. Why the F***, why the actual F*** would DE convince you NOT to play their game for a week or two at a time? It makes no sense on both business and personal fronts.

You're looking for worst case scenarios like I keep telling people NOT to do. After dealing with good and bad from DE for 2 years, I can personally say that the change will either be great for the game's longevity and stay, or it'll be a massive mistake and everyone says they'll stop playing and it'll be reverted shortly after it's done.

Intentionally? They won't. Unintentionally? They may, and by the explanations we have right now, it's not as unlikely as you believe. It's also something other games have made the mistake of doing, so it's not completely out of left field either.

I'm looking for worst case scenarios so DE's fully aware not to do them.

Edited May 10, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[AlexanderJ]

 

Would crafting missions allow boss acess or would this be the only option to see bosses?

 That could be really cool like after the boss completes there objective ( saying players wheren't able to stop them) you could craft a node to them and try and take them down with their power up or whatever it would be that they got and if enough people did it, it would stop them from resurfacing but in order to do that i would think we'd have to track them down first.

[WERElektro]

Am I the only one who doesn't mind RNG?.

OP, You mentioned other games....- then you should know that, in these other f2p games (especially mmorpgs) RNG is MUCH MUCH worse than here.

And they basically already did something about the crowded drop tables by removing certain parts and blueprints (Frost prime, Latron p, reaper p....), leaving more place for other items!