Chaos Augment, Useless?

[Kestral9999]

I like how this thread has derailed into "Loki > Nyx" banter.

 

Great job all around everyone.

 

You've made the Lotus proud.

[S.T.M.P.D]

Glad to see the trend continuing: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/464933-great-to-see-nyx-becoming-more-like-ember/

There was a reason why that thread got locked, y'know. Let's do our best to make sure this one stays open, k?

[ashrah]

nyx is top tier frame....this augment is just small addition to her..... 50% is pretty good

[Aesthetic_Dialectic]

I think this is what people are forgetting.

 

Y'all ain't see that commercial for taco shells? That lil girl is like "why not both?" Yeah, that thing.

Add in a speed nova and use the bubble to your advantage even further. Ghetto Vauban it up or something.

Seriously just because it doesn't universally excel at cause your ability to become excessively powerful does not mean it sucks completely.

It just means it sucks for 90% of things. Find what it's good for. Even if it's a nearly trivial thing.

Oh no that augment still is &#!, it literally forces you into a worse build and takes up a slot. It would have been nice in survival and defense if the bubble lasted 100% of the time and never shrank. Then all we need was better mind control AI and BAM duration Nyx is a beast.

[CTanGod]

Why are people complaining about Irradiating Disarm when Oberon has been better at making enemies attack each other than Nyx long before augments were even a thing ?

 

If anything Nyx needs a rework, Radiation procs are only really usefull against infested due to their auras, for real crowd control we have much better alternatives, ones that do not leave enemies open to still attacking us.

 

But anyway I guess I'll be branded as a noob because of my comment since 99.99% of the community thinks Radiation proc is better than a Blind proc (blind making enemies more or less passive and vulnerable to 4x melee damage, but who cares about those aspects when enemies shoot themselves for so little damage it doesn't even matter, am I right ?)

[Dubious.Wisp]

This augment, through play testing....is...I hate to use nebulous and exaggerated wording here...atrocious.

 

You should be able to drop multiple orbs at least with the current augment, not just one.

 

Given the history (or lack there of) of DE backtracking on augments/abilities, it will stay the way it is.

 

Artistic integrity and all that.

 

- deep, resigned sigh -

Edited May 28, 2015 by holstein

[MrDar1o]

How to make something useful useless - DE Edition. I thought augments make abilities... better. Well, we learn something new everyday. 

 

Just make 100% duration and remove this decreasing radius.

[Aesthetic_Dialectic]

"Why not both?" Because there's only four slots on the team. Why would you bring Nyx and Loki when Loki can be Nyx AND Loki 99% of the time, and leave 3 slots for other players?

 

Find what it's good for? I, and other Nyx players, don't want a super sitiational mod that means she essentially doesn't have an augment in 90% of cases. I want a mod that is has a legitimate case to be included in a core build. Like, yah know, the Radial Disarm augment. Or Ember's 4 augments. Nyx needs a buff to make up for the fact that Loki can do her main job (Chaosing S#&$) better than she can. This ain't it.

 

And I DEFY you to find a case where this mod is of use. The chaos'd enemies aggro the non-chaos'd, in addition to the aura moving away from the enemies. Simply getting 1 single, solitary enemy to be effected by the aura would take some work. It's simply not worth it.

A proper Nyx build is going to be recasting Chaos constantly anyway, nabbing any enemies who aren't effected. Because effected enemies are hostile to non-effected enemies, as long as you hit a few enemies with the initial cast, you don't even need to effect those outside before you recast. It all comes down to opportunity cost. What are you gonna give up for Chaos Sphere? Because I don't think anyone should give up a real mod for Chaos Sphere, which is going to do nothing but look pretty 99% of the time.

  

You poor soul. Irradiating Disarm scales off of duration. A balanced duration/range build is ~20s or so of rad proc.

 

Nyx is better for chaos than loki's irradiating disarm. For one, it's 25% cheaper which is HUGE, it has a larger radius, yes even when loki has the swindle helmet on, and it does not take up a mod slot. It's better to run a Loki and a Nyx rather than just a Loki.

 

No. No its not. Why would I waste my time with a Nyx when I can have another frame that brings more, well, everything to the team?

  

Idk what kind of build u using but we all know spamming 4 isnt issue on this game and u can easily free a slot for irradiating disarm. Loki is rly easy to build and to play, not an issue with slots.

 

Only prob here is that loki does better job than nyx with that augment. She is still good, we cant argue, but obsolete with loki.

Firstly any mission you are using irradiating disarm as CC you are either in the raid with room for both, or don't actually have a better optioN. Bring Vauban or Hydroid is redundant. Bringing SloNova slows down spawns in survival and defense And if you are running speed nova on defense you better sure as hell have a vauban. Mirage can do damage but that's it, she is hardly useful outside of that. Excal's cc isn't good enough any more. Chroma will get DPS'd down at high enough survival for his tanking melee builds. Mag is good for void, but say you have nyx, Mag and loki, who else do you need? Frost on defense? Okay. Now what do you replace nyx with? Someone who can use absorbs to protect people and help revive teammates? Especially when the loki gets down due to being exceptionally squishy. Trinity other than EV is useless at end game and even that isn't enough to justify her. As well if either the nyx or loki get downed hAlf of the CC is still there.

Also the range difference is huge when mods are accounted for overextended+stretch= 57.25 chaos and stretch+overextended=45.8 The swindle slightly closing the gap but still a good five meters under and most people use the essence or no arcane helmet either way. As well Chaos can be cast 25% more than Irradiation Disarm at any efficiency with no draw backs to her abilities. Out of a hundred disarm casts nyx has 25 more chaos casts. Out of the thousand that is 250 more. Are people forgetting that you lower the duration of invisibility with max efficiency? Nyx WANTS less duration. It doesn't negatively effect her like is does loki where it is directly linked to his Survivability. If we take that into account and people only use streamline or streamline and the essence helmet nyx can cast EVEN more often than Loki. Oh and did I mention this was all without using an extra mod slot?

Also for those who think nyx needs power strength need to remember absorb scales into end game with negative power strength and that Psychic Bolt suck.

[00zau]

    

Firstly any mission you are using irradiating disarm as CC you are either in the raid with room for both, or don't actually have a better optioN. Bring Vauban or Hydroid is redundant. Bringing SloNova slows down spawns in survival and defense And if you are running speed nova on defense you better sure as hell have a vauban. Mirage can do damage but that's it, she is hardly useful outside of that. Excal's cc isn't good enough any more. Chroma will get DPS'd down at high enough survival for his tanking melee builds. Mag is good for void, but say you have nyx, Mag and loki, who else do you need? Frost on defense? Okay. Now what do you replace nyx with? Someone who can use absorbs to protect people and help revive teammates? Especially when the loki gets down due to being exceptionally squishy. Trinity other than EV is useless at end game and even that isn't enough to justify her. As well if either the nyx or loki get downed hAlf of the CC is still there.

Also the range difference is huge when mods are accounted for overextended+stretch= 57.25 chaos and stretch+overextended=45.8 The swindle slightly closing the gap but still a good five meters under and most people use the essence or no arcane helmet either way. As well Chaos can be cast 25% more than Irradiation Disarm at any efficiency with no draw backs to her abilities. Out of a hundred disarm casts nyx has 25 more chaos casts. Out of the thousand that is 250 more. Are people forgetting that you lower the duration of invisibility with max efficiency? Nyx WANTS less duration. It doesn't negatively effect her like is does loki where it is directly linked to his Survivability. If we take that into account and people only use streamline or streamline and the essence helmet nyx can cast EVEN more often than Loki. Oh and did I mention this was all without using an extra mod slot?

Also for those who think nyx needs power strength need to remember absorb scales into end game with negative power strength and that Psychic Bolt suck.

That's making a lot of assumptions about team comps. Long story short, no. There are plenty of situations where you could have Nyx or Loki, but Loki is a better choice in pretty much every one, and you don't need both. Any mission can use CC from ID or Chaos. The issue is that there's almost nothing to recommend Nyx over Loki in any situation, and you're better off with 3 frames that do different things than Nyx if you already have Loki.

 

Range difference doesn't matter; Loki can just move and cast twice if he needs to. Energy isn't hard for either frame; Nyx can cast Fleeting Chaos on end without running out of energy period with just Siphon (which is automatic unless you need 4x corrosive). Nyx would LOVE to be able to spend more energy casting Chaos and effecting new targets.

 

No duh. Min power strength is the way to go. Loki does the same thing, though. Doesn't change the fact that Loki does Nyx's job better than she can. Or the fact that the new augment is 99.99% useless, and does nothing to correct said imbalance.

[rongviet1995]

Loki ID should not be debuff, it's fine the way it is
The problem is Nyx Chaos Sphere (or Circle, i ain't see no sphere) should be buff. With the current mechanic, it done more harm then good

Problem:

_ It take a mod slot.

_ It reduce it range for 50% of the duration: Really!, the moment you cast Chaos, all enemy would be fighting each other rather then run right at you => What the point of having the dang range reduce for. (Not to mention, the speed it reduce is faster then the enemy run speed, if you go 100% duration build, that is if they actually run at you and not getting stop my an enemy who is chaos and attack them).

_ When you misplace your Sphere (or cicrle), and you kill all the enemy in it, you still have to w8 for the sphere to shrink to recast it (ie, you accidentally cast it on 4 enemy, and after you kill 4 of them, you have to w8 for the sphere to shrink to use again, wut)

[Aesthetic_Dialectic]

That's making a lot of assumptions about team comps. Long story short, no. There are plenty of situations where you could have Nyx or Loki, but Loki is a better choice in pretty much every one, and you don't need both. Any mission can use CC from ID or Chaos. The issue is that there's almost nothing to recommend Nyx over Loki in any situation, and you're better off with 3 frames that do different things than Nyx if you already have Loki.

Range difference doesn't matter; Loki can just move and cast twice if he needs to. Energy isn't hard for either frame; Nyx can cast Fleeting Chaos on end without running out of energy period with just Siphon (which is automatic unless you need 4x corrosive). Nyx would LOVE to be able to spend more energy casting Chaos and effecting new targets.

No duh. Min power strength is the way to go. Loki does the same thing, though. Doesn't change the fact that Loki does Nyx's job better than she can. Or the fact that the new augment is 99.99% useless, and does nothing to correct said imbalance.

Except the range DOES matter, 10 meter difference is 30-40 feet. That's the height of a T-xrex. Taller than most houses even. That range difference is HUGE. If you move to cast again on Loki you further prove my point with efficiency. Chaos is more efficient. Back to efficiency. Most Lokis will have only streamline on so as not to massively gimp their invisibility with fleeting. This means the cost for Disarm is 70, as opposed to Nyx's 18.75. This means Loki needs three energy orbs to cast once and Nyx can cast three times with the same amount of energy orbs. If you include fleeting for loki you nerf invisibility by 50%n which without narrowminded is only 16 seconds with a maxed primed continuity and 13 with a normal one and if you use narrow-minded you nerf your range by a massive amount too. This is as opposed to a maxed duration 33.8 second Invisibility. This means you have to cast invisibility more often being even more taxing on your energy once again. Then you use another slot for the augment which means you might be losing survivability or natural talent. Nyx on the other hand can use Natural Talent, Max Efficiency and range with running redirection, vitality AND vigor If she wants. On top of having higher base stats to be more survivable ONTOP of having absorbs which not only scales incredibly far into end game damage wise but protects you and anyone in it. All Nyx needs is for the new augment mod to be better and for Mind Control's AI to be the same as Spectre AI, and even then she is still the best CC option when not running Vauban.

[Kisha]

I agree, the loki augment crossed the line, Nyx is now in a really bad spot compared to loki, simply because of that one mod, IF the nyx mod was buffed, saying the circle was moving with her, then it would actually be alright

 

but...i dont know what happened, but i took  a break from the game, when nova p was released and back then the AI for the Chaos and mind control worked really good, but now it just seems its completely broken, the mind control target rarely ever shoots, and usually just stands NeXT to you and does nothing, the Chaos affected ones just rush to their objectives and ignores completely to attack each other

[climatiseur]

Except the range DOES matter, 10 meter difference is 30-40 feet. That's the height of a T-xrex. Taller than most houses even. That range difference is HUGE. If you move to cast again on Loki you further prove my point with efficiency. Chaos is more efficient. Back to efficiency. Most Lokis will have only streamline on so as not to massively gimp their invisibility with fleeting. This means the cost for Disarm is 70, as opposed to Nyx's 18.75. This means Loki needs three energy orbs to cast once and Nyx can cast three times with the same amount of energy orbs. If you include fleeting for loki you nerf invisibility by 50%n which without narrowminded is only 16 seconds with a maxed primed continuity and 13 with a normal one and if you use narrow-minded you nerf your range by a massive amount too. This is as opposed to a maxed duration 33.8 second Invisibility. This means you have to cast invisibility more often being even more taxing on your energy once again. Then you use another slot for the augment which means you might be losing survivability or natural talent. Nyx on the other hand can use Natural Talent, Max Efficiency and range with running redirection, vitality AND vigor If she wants. On top of having higher base stats to be more survivable ONTOP of having absorbs which not only scales incredibly far into end game damage wise but protects you and anyone in it. All Nyx needs is for the new augment mod to be better and for Mind Control's AI to be the same as Spectre AI, and even then she is still the best CC option when not running Vauban.

 

When you compare their efficiency, you have to take in account how many enemies are affected, and how the abilities can be used.

 

Your comparison is based on Nyx cast 1 Chaos, only affecting the initial enemies, while the 2 - 3 times Casted by Loki, can cover much more enemies and newer enemies, the range can be easily determined by anywhere Loki wants to go. Thus, this comparison is not quite a fair one. Yes, Loki might use more energy, however, during the time while Nyx is unable to recast Chaos and lock herself in vulnerable state, Loki can cast whenever and where-ever he wants and affect much more enemies than that 1 -cast Chaos. Not to mention that energy pad is such a thing to take into account, neglecting that small energy difference as a factor.  

 

When you are constantly casting ID with your invisibility, you don't really need a skill like absorb because everyone is busy fighting each other and no one would ever notice an invisible man. 

 

Anyway, Loki's ID discussion should be in another topic, this topic is focusing on Chaos augment. We all (I suppose) agree that, even without comparing it to ID, it is just plainly and simply not serving well as an augment. This augment needs to be augmented.

[Riot_Inducer]

Seems to me they got this augment backwards. Because of how enemy agro and Chaos works most enemies outside of Chaos' range will stop to attack the enemies now affected by chaos ensuring that they won't advance fast enough to catch the retreating zone from the augment. 

 

I see the intent behind the 50% duration modifier as an attempt to get people to use longer duration builds for nyx but because the Chaos zone shrinks it's completely counter productive.

 

I think a perfect fix for the augment would be to make the Chaos area work like Molecular Prime. That is, it would expand from Nyx based on duration with no maximum range. This would let it catch new incoming enemies and potentially allow for even larger chaos range with high duration builds.

 

Personally I'd also like to see a bonus effect for the expanding zone hitting enemies already under chaos, maybe disarm them just to give Nyx a little payback for Loki stealing the show for so long, but at the very least a MP style expanding wave would work much better imo. 

[rongviet1995]

DE should change the names of the augment to "Chaos wave" and make it like Molecular Prime work, extend and effect the enemy.

Or simply make the range not reduce through out 50% of duration but keep it like normal and last for all the duration of Chaos ability.

[PsiWarp]

If only the sphere became an aura that followed Nyx as it shrinks, then it would give us a window of opportunity to stun/confuse more enemies after casting Chaos, allowing us to switch to melee combat with impunity.

[Dubious.Wisp]

Count how many augments have been changed in the past. That is the chance % of DE changing this one.

[(PSN)Kevo149]

I was really waiting for this mod now im just gonna drop my nyx and just main trinity now -.-

[Snake]

Yes this is another junk augment. Had the exact same impression of it like many others.  This is yet another example why having a dedicated augment slot would be nice as changing stats of the augment would not be needed.

 

Bla bla bla too OP right?

 

Not if DE is selective about which augments could be used in that slot.

 

 This would be a good example of a augment Mod for an extra slot.

[Elyan]

What do you think of this: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/465958-so-we-finally-got-chaos-augment-and-it-changed-everything/page-3#entry5212329

[THND3RZ]

I bought it ...25 000 used for garbage.

[Ishki88]

I'm on the assumption that the "Testing Box" in last Dev Stream is used for Warframe changes.  If so I now understand why they thought Nyx's Augment was good.  Just an assumption of course.  If it took me 2 minutes to realize this mod was bad after going to Apollodorus........