People Cant Copter?so Lets Take Away Stamina Instead Of Teaching. (That Doom Thread)

[Mathemagics]

imo it makes sense if u have less weapons or smaller u move faster so u can choose according to mission for defence u get your rocket launcher for assasination u get your dagger. 

i mean increase movement speed not coptering. u will have to sacrifise dmg for movement or vice versa.

 

EDIT: it would be silly if scindo p and daggers would have the same dmg, but lesser dmg weapons need some utility also to be ever considered

Edited June 4, 2015 by Mathemagics

[Dillon_J]

Half the time i cant actually copter because i tend to use slow swinging weapons. People tend to forget that when this discussion is brought up.

[Liberty83]

I always felt the idea behind coptering was those old kung fu films where the duel came down to that final strike of all or nothing.  Both warriors charged at each others and it a flash it was over with one of them falling over several seconds later making all sorts of horrible sounds. 

 

That to me seemed the idea behind the actual speed mechanic of the slash.

 

Now the fact that you can chain it back to back to get from point A. to B. faster is just a happy coincidence.

 

What they really need to do is make a movement system where you can get from point A. to B. faster than repeated coptering so you can keep that iconic movie move and get around in a way that doesn't quite look as silly. 

[Thaumatos]

I always felt the idea behind coptering was those old kung fu films where the duel came down to that final strike of all or nothing.  Both warriors charged at each others and it a flash it was over with one of them falling over several seconds later making all sorts of horrible sounds. 

 

That to me seemed the idea behind the actual speed mechanic of the slash.

 

Now the fact that you can chain it back to back to get from point A. to B. faster is just a happy coincidence.

 

What they really need to do is make a movement system where you can get from point A. to B. faster than repeated coptering so you can keep that iconic movie move and get around in a way that doesn't quite look as silly. 

They're doing exactly what they need to do.  Normalize the slide attack and keep people from spinning like a top.

 

Then add skill-based player movement so people actually have to play better to move faster.  Sick and tired of kids who think because they can make a macro that they have skill.  Not because they don't have any skill...but because they won't stfu about it when they don't.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Thaumatos

[Mak_Gohae]

My problem with copter is not that i can't use it.

My problem with it: it's stupid and ruins the balance.

Have you seen pvp? Rhinos, who's like one of the slowest warframes in the game, can copter across the map in 1-2 seconds with Bo Prime or something like that.

Crossing the map. By using melee slide attack. Because for some reasons it increases your movement speed to 100 km/h.

Yeah, seems legit. (Actually: no.)

Because of coptering: stamina is useless. You can copter for infinity. You need 5% of stamina to have to copter again. Why is there even a sprint in the first case? It slower, it takes away stamina and you can't spring for a long time because of stamina.

The same problem would go for Parkour 2.0.

Some called it "Resource management". You what what this remind me of? "I'am Bread". You had only limited time at which you could hold onto obstacles. Do you know what "I'am Bread" game is? It's a rage game. And limited stamina to holding on obstacles - one of the reasons why it is.

 

So yeah. Stamina is useless. Coptering is stupid and basically an exploit. Also makes stamina useless.

 

I have no ideas how to rework this S#&$ properly so in my opinion just simply killing everything that doesn't work properly is a good choice. After all DE can revive it any time they want.

 

Dont care for coptering either.

So yeah, kill coptering but keep stamina.

 

 

First of all, be careful not to slip on that slope you created there.

 

 

Dont know how long you are been playing shooters but limited sprint is not new.

There is no slope here that i am slipping.

 

Secondly, people are running out of stamina... solution to that is to teach them... to bypass the system. Brilliant. Stamina management getting you down? Well, DON'T manage it *mind blown*.

 

That's the point. The game gives you options to continue moving while the stamina returns. 

So why take away stamina because some folks are not learning? Why not teach the system that exists?

 

From how Geoff was acting about it, it seem like they made a decision that they know is bad but they are not backing from it because they said they were doing it something.

 

Do you copter Mak? If so... why? You're missing out on all of that riveting stamina management challenging action right there!

 

You don't have to manage stamina at all when coptering. So if it's such a great system... why did you decide to exlude yourself from it? I can only assume that stamina management is too hardcore for you even.

 

Dont really copter. If you party with me i will always be at the back because im in no rush.

[GrandClapper]

Coptering Is an unintended exploit Not a game feature. I can guarantee you that the devs didnt mean for us to copter around the levels. Sure, its been around for a long time, but still prob not intentional. Get over it.

[taiiat]

as usual, thanks, a good laugh every day is nice to have.

your words are always hilarious to read.

i'll take your clickbait, grasping at straws, and wrong level that is quite high, for just a few sentences.

Mutalist Ospreys were capable of replacing 90% of the air in a map with Toxin Clouds. that is why they were adjusted a few times.

people want dedicated Slot(s) for Augments because most of them are completely garbage and do very little that is useful. to make them competitive and worth considering using at all, you can't need to sacrifice something else that's extremely useful.

Stamina is disliked by the Players and some of Digital Extremes because it doesn't do anything useful. there is no management or 'skill' involved. the only thing that's useful that it does is allow you to Block. it literally does nothing else that's useful.

as usual, showing that you don't understand what you're talking about and that this thread might as well be in Off Topic.

Edited June 5, 2015 by taiiat

[Thalahssalyst]

Dont care for coptering either.

So yeah, kill coptering but keep stamina.

 

 

 

Dont know how long you are been playing shooters but limited sprint is not new.

There is no slope here that i am slipping.

 

 

 

That's the point. The game gives you options to continue moving while the stamina returns. 

So why take away stamina because some folks are not learning? Why not teach the system that exists?

 

From how Geoff was acting about it, it seem like they made a decision that they know is bad but they are not backing from it because they said they were doing it something.

 

 

 

Dont really copter. If you party with me i will always be at the back because im in no rush.

Wut? You still want stamina on game?

I will like to know, how many players, on all the matchs, on all the maps, put stamina mods and speed mods on their warframe, and sacrifice damage, Hp or Shield, or other mods with better utility just for running a little more, when no one run, just copter, and coptering ignore a big amount of stamina, making it like "so what is that green bar?".

[Carolly]

Dude, not everything i have has forma in it or even catalyst stuff. The most i formad something it twice.

The game is only difficult on higher levels because the enemies hit hard and have a lot of life, not because they, the units themselves, offer any sort of challenge. As long as you keep moving the game is really not that much of an issue when it comes to getting through it.

I.... um.... really?  Because most end-game weapons/builds take at least 4.

[Vadrigos]

What is this thread still doing here? This has been resolved. MODERATOR! REMOVE THIS DROSS FROM OUR SIGHT!! PEOPLE HAVE REAL FEEDBACK THAT NEEDS TO BE GIVEN.

[Mak_Gohae]

You know, that coptering is not hard to do?

 

Apparently it is since this is the reason given to why stamina is going.

 

You know how game breaking its, leaving away the purpose on how melee its supposed to work? 

If you dont know what, melee is for kill, If u choose in a game a Gelatine, because i like it, because i want melee alone, and other people choose bo p  or typedo, o men, mobility its really different, why because a melee?

 

That's called balance. The weapons that do more damage is going to have a slower travel time so you dont kill stuff quickly.

 

About coptering, sadly for me, its not going to be removed, they are going to remove stamina because it limit the player on builds and limit the parkour while you dont manage your stamina mods, because if u do that, u lost a lot of other stuff more viable than stamina.

Coptering is the most easy thing, that you can do in game, if u know how to slide with melee, you know how to copter.

 

It didnt limit anything it was an option you can build for.

People need to get off this mentality that you must have max at everything. You are not. You are supposed to build for something and create a playstyle around that.

 

 

The issue is not that coptering is hard.

 

No, that's the actual issue according to scott. Some people cant do it so take stamina away.

Which is funny because they new Super Warframe Brothers has now to be the easiest thing to perform on the planet or else all they did is change the mechanic that people cannot perform.

 

It is that it's a bug that became a mechanic while DE struggled with other issues. Now the time has come for the bug to go and a proper system to replace it, and you've grown so used to it that your fighting against the game being improved. Even I will be sad to see the sliding and coptering go, but I know the game will be better for it. Just deal with it.

 

Actually they didnt say they were going to remove it.

And this thread is mainly about stamina.

Im going to have to change the title because my issue is stamina but a lot of you seem to be talking about me not wanting coptering gone.

[Carolly]

Folks?

Coptering was an unintended mechanic in the first place.

They didn't design the game around it.  It changed the entire game when people started doing it.

They're well within their rights here, and frankly, I've never even understood the stamina system from a ton of different angles; why it exists, what makes it necessary (spoiler alert: it's not) and why people make a big deal about it.

Just let it go.  I know change is hard.  It's ok.  You will adapt.

[Thalahssalyst]

 

Coptering is not balanced, its a bug never touched and it dont need balance, it need a complete removal in order to make all melee viables, without difference in choice because a bug.

[Mak_Gohae]

 

Me: I will agree with that.  People are afraid of a challenge and so DE caters to the weak and stuff gets nerfed.  One example I can think of are the jack-pack grineer, back when they were something to fear.

 

 

The jet-pack Grineer? The Hellion? The Hellion could stun-lock you alone if he caught you at the right time. And the issue was the guaranteed blast proc which they removed. I think that was fine.

 

 

 

 

Me: Coptering is not supposed to be in the game anyway.  It was a bug, always will be a bug, and DE has always wanted to remove it, but people kept crying about it and demanded to keep it in the game.  They are finally removing it, and they explained why on the devstream.  (I assumed you watched it before making this thread)  This has nothing to do with the stamina mechanic.  They are removing stamina because it has become quite problematic in many ways than I care to list.  It doesn't work well with parkour 2.0 (as far as I understood form the devstream).

 

???

I did see the stream but i dont remember it like you do. They said they were removing stamina and reworking the coptering.

 

My issue is with the removing of stamina.

 

 

Me: In this case, DE may think you are asking too much.  This game is not that hard to figure out.  In addition to that, there are experienced players that can show the noobs what they need to know.  If you are not one of those helpful people, that would explain a lot about you.  Have you ever helped anyone understand this game better?

 

???

The excuse for removing stamina is because there are people that cant figure out coptering so "the game is not hard" excuse doesnt work with what was said.

 

And have i ever helped people? This thread is about teaching folks how to play, i gave an idea for some training room that involves players.

 

 

 

 

Me: Not really seeing your point here where you said "kill as many people in row as possible to get the big combos."  I'm just not seeing that in Warframe at all.  Can't agree with that.

 

The press 4 builds? You never heard of that?

You never heard the silly excuse of, "why should i use X when i can press y and kill everything?"

 

 

 

This is just a summary of what I thought as I read your post.  So you wrote all this to complain about people not learning to copter and the fact that stamina is going to be removed?  I'm not really convinced you make your point other than to complain.  Was that the goal?

 

The point is that DE should stop "balancing" things by simply taking stuff away because some people cant figure out stuff the first day a few hours in.  You understood this when you answered the first question.

 

 

 

Aye. Coptering can be made pretty easy, if you're willing to rebind some keys. I can't really agree with anyone who considers it to be "skillful" play.

 

When it's gone, I'm sure I'll miss it at first. I'm willing to make that sacrifice if it means that a stamina rework will be getting higher priority. Right now, there's a wide gulf between players who can / do copter and those who can't / don't. Warframe will be better when that's gone. Finding a way to rework or replace this bothersome stamina system will probably have benefits far beyond just this, and I'm willing to ride through some bumpy ground to see what Dev comes up with.

 

Coptering is not being removed, stamina is. They said they were reworking coptering.

Did i see a devstream from another dimension?

 

Stamina is stupid though. There have been so many threads on the forums asking for it to be removed because it's not challenging, it's just plain stupid. Every little thing you do causes you to lose stamina in this game and you're not even given enough stamina to begin with.

 

I agree with you about having a tutorial mode and easier ways for noobs to learn the game though.

 

Stamina is one of the key factors holding back melee play on a whole. Maybe I want to use my attacks as attacks, and not a mandatory method of getting from point A to Point B before sunrise? Or maybe I want my space ninja demigod to run longer than I can in real life? Maybe I should be able to use blocking in melee, the method used to get closer to enemies, and then actually attack theeneenemies? Just a thought.

 

This is the exact problem i am talking about.

The game offers mods that help you with stamina but people dont want to create builds for them because it's all about min\max and nothing else. And anything that cant be accomplished by min\maxing then you go on to complain about how it sucks.

 

So many of the complains in this board are about people not wanting to equip different mods from their one locked set it really seems like DE should just dump everything and pop 3 frames total. One damage, one CC, and one caster. Because what's the point of giving players the option to create all sorts of builds when they dont, then DE caters to them and goes on to remove everything that could be solved by mods.

 

I just doesnt make any sense! Why does Chewbacca live in Endor?

Edited June 7, 2015 by Mak_Gohae

[Atmos_Tech]

Coptering is not balanced, its a bug never touched and it dont need balance, it need a complete removal in order to make all melee viables, without difference in choice because a bug.

 

mk-1 braton is better than anything melee with a few forma.

 

now that coptering is being gutted i can use my newfound decoration slot to wear a dragon nikana like all the other edge lords. yay

Edited June 7, 2015 by Atmos_Tech

[Sidathe]

Limited sprint has been in games for a while. This is not something unique to Warframe or something that was just created a year back.  You may disagree with it but managing sprint is a norm.

Stamina works for games with a slower or more realistic bent to it.

 

This is a game where we're pretty much Usain Bolt with a bit of Flash thrown in, making stamina a pain in the !.

 

And yes, coptering is an exploit on the physics system that could be easily removed if the walking speed was cranked up, the sprinting speed as well, and mobility amped up considerably higher.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Sidathe

[Carolly]

mk-1 braton is better than anything melee with a few forma.

Several of my melee weapons and I would like to debate with you whether they're better than - literally - the worst primary in the game.

[DiabolusUrsus]

*snip*

 

What? No.

 

Your entire premise is built on a flawed assumption: That stamina is getting removed because "coptering is difficult."

 

Stamina is getting removed because it leads to people exclusively using coptering to get around. Stamina is getting removed because it's a limiting system that doesn't effectively limit the exact thing it is supposed to limit: player mobility. Stamina is getting removed because with that faulty limit in place, it renders an entire mode of movement more or less obsolete (sprinting). Stamina is getting removed because the devs have finally realized that player mobility really isn't something that ought to be limited when taking the pacing of the game into consideration.

 

Coptering, on the other hand, is getting removed (last I checked, anyway...) because it's a gag feature that gained way more traction than it ever should have. It's amusing, for a time, the same way any physics engine glitch can keep people amused and giggling for a short while. However, when you step back and look at it earnestly it's an unreliable, imprecise, inelegant means of jumping about that reeks of poor craftsmanship. 

 

Coptering is getting removed because it's getting replaced with something nearly identical in function that also features polished animations, a greater degree of player control, a lack of dependence on particular melee weapons, and doesn't allow players to completely ignore an entire gameplay mechanic. 

 

While I agree that stamina could be put to better use instead of being scrapped entirely, I don't see how you can argue that removing it is somehow a bad change because it damages coptering of all things. 

You want a real list of problems that come about following the removal of stamina?

 

1. Green Elemental Ward on Chroma.

2. Quick Rest.

3. Marathon.

4. Shield Flux.

5. Acrobatics.

6. Pretty much any other mod that I'm forgetting that affects stamina.

 

I'm still trying to figure out why you're upset about coptering when they're giving you what amounts to pretty much the exact same thing without the goofy animation and gear restrictions. 

 

Apologies for the misinterpretation of what you were saying.

 

That said, you've got two conflicting viewpoints here:

 

That people are somehow wrong for disapproving of the "challenge" Warframe has to offer, yet they should still be expected to expand outward from min-maxed mod loadouts. 

 

What the what?

 

Do you understand what most complaints concerning "challenge" are actually about? The fact that more and more of our "challenges" force us into min-maxed builds in order to be overcome. The people that don't like the "challenge" Warframe has to offer are unhappy because most "challenges" are a simple matter of figuring out how to cheese them most effectively. 

Edited June 7, 2015 by DiabolusUrsus

[TheBrsrkr]

I should not need a mod to get rid of limits that shouldn't be there in the first place. Buttsliding isn't skill. Coptering isn't skill. Band aid mods are not solutions.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Coptering is not a challenge. It's a thing you spam over and over to reduce challenge.

As for Stamina - it's not a challenge, either. In the words of Scott, "You sprint sprint sprint then you putter out and then you have to feather that last third or so."

Fun? Gods, no. Skill-based? Please. A major annoyance? Hell yes.

Besides, there's evidently a focus on skill coming in Parkour 2.0. The more mobility you build up, the faster you go, the better you are at navigating, the faster you can go, zipping through hordes of enemies like an actual ninja instead of... whatever the hell we are right now.

This

[PookieNumnums]

The only people who hate copter are either incapable or lack creativity

See any of my copter thread for proof of how fun copter can be when incorporated properly

And for plenty of you're not making a logical arguement retorts and counter points

[PookieNumnums]

Oh yah and they're capping parkour distance and speed with pk 2.o

[DiabolusUrsus]

Oh yah and they're capping parkour distance and speed with pk 2.o

 

You mean like, within reasonable limits? 

 

The best part about this is that it standardizes mobility options without an over-dependence on selecting particular gear. 

 

+ Efficient movement will no longer be loadout-dependent.

+ Animations will fit into the flow of the game.

+ Movement will be more precise, which makes it more accessible, and thus enjoyable to a wider portion of the community.

+ Combined with enemy-stepping, it opens up possibilities for expanded gameplay options like the actual parkour elements to boss battles we were initially promised with Lephantis.

 

- It won't be as funny. 

 

The only people who are truly sorry to see coptering go are the ones who haven't outgrown its novelty yet. 

 

I don't see how "They're replacing an unpolished and crude mechanic with a roughly-equivalent and polished mechanic" is an illogical argument or counter-point. 

[Sidathe]

The only people who hate copter are either incapable or lack creativity

See any of my copter thread for proof of how fun copter can be when incorporated properly

And for plenty of you're not making a logical arguement retorts and counter points

What happens when they make coptering an official part of the game? Do they have to change all the maps to account for the fact we can move at near-lightspeed? :v What would be the purpose of Stamina if I can copter across a room faster than it can properly render, and faster than any enemy could ever hope to see me? What's the purpose of even having sprinting if I can quite literally teleport via Dual Zoren or Dual Ichors?

[Mak_Gohae]

You know what I'm just going to say this coptering is not a mechanic, it's a bug that DE ingores to fix cause I pretty sure this was not intended, I mean have you ever paid attention how weird coptering animations look, as you fling across the map at ridiculous speeds and distances you get an animation of the warframe walking in the middle of the air defying the games psychics/animations, and it doesn't work with all melee weapons which seems way off.

 

Given how many times DE has fix it and things around Coptering, i dont really know how people continue to use the, "it's a bug" excuse.

Not that i care for it, this is about stamina.

 

Does anyone here rly think that the stamina was a problem cause people couldn't copter?

Gosh. I'm pretty sure at least 80-90% of the playerbase manage to sprint longer then these tenno.

Seriously. Tenno are highly trained space ninjas, coptering, wallrunning, meleeing, ASTHMATIC space ninjas.

It was about damn time for the stamina bar to dissapear.

 

Pretty sure only 10% of the playerbase can run, jump, shoot, while carrying a rifle, sidearm, melee weapons, plus ammo, and gear.

 

Dont really know where you people are seeing these ninjas that are the freaking HULK.

 

Wow.

 

U17 isn't out yet and people are starting to blow up the forums with their QQ about copter changes.

 

Delicious.

 

 

It's about stamina.

 

Stamina is what I call "annoying realism." Its realism for the sake of realism and adds nothing to the game except frustration and annoyance. I hope they get rid of it and never re-add it.

 

It's for balance you are not supposed to fly through a mission straight to the objective. The problem is that DE pushes speed so stamina is a problem to that. The game originally used to be a shooter but over time it has just into some adventure game.