I Think All These "nerfs" Are To Fool Us

[GratuitousLurking]

Vauban System just dropped. I believe you can all take off your tinfoil hats and return to enjoying the game now.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I'm fairly confident we said the same thing.

no. platinum to credits means you CAN'T buy plat with credits

[ELREYULTIMO]

no. platinum to credits means you CAN'T buy plat with credits

Right. Buying credits with your platinum.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Right. Buying credits with your platinum.

Wow, just wow -.- I read it wrong like three times. deeeeeeerp

[CrazyCanadian24]

deeeeeeerp

 

[BloodKitten]

im a free player at the moment, i think the market system as it is now is fair, after all, you only pay for conviniance, why would people bother buy a weapon with platinum if they can buy it through credits? now that most weapons use the foundery, you can either sit and wait 12-24 hours to build a weapons, or just buy it and have it on the spot.

[Argoms]

im a free player at the moment, i think the market system as it is now is fair, after all, you only pay for conviniance, why would people bother buy a weapon with platinum if they can buy it through credits? now that most weapons use the foundery, you can either sit and wait 12-24 hours to build a weapons, or just buy it and have it on the spot.

New players don't want to throw $10-20 at a game they just started playing for a weapon that might not even suit them (and isn't even leveled to 30). 

 

Nobody was meant to buy through platinum, which is why the weapons are so expensive.

[Deadly-Bagel]

Seriously, what's everyone so hyped about.

 

Yeah okay it puts a proverbial spanner in the "own and max all weapons" works but new players aren't really that affected. I had like 2,000 alloy plate before I even made another weapon. Things usually aren't so easy to make in online games.

 

How about looking into a weapon and deciding if it's worth it before you craft it? Rather than after.

[Argoms]

Seriously, what's everyone so hyped about.

 

Yeah okay it puts a proverbial spanner in the "own and max all weapons" works but new players aren't really that affected. I had like 2,000 alloy plate before I even made another weapon. Things usually aren't so easy to make in online games.

 

How about looking into a weapon and deciding if it's worth it before you craft it? Rather than after.

Everyone is so annoyed because this effects new players the most.

 

People who already have a set of high-level modded equipment can deal with this. A new player who wants to get an idea of what they want to use can no longer test out shorter (strun) or longer (burston) ranged options. They're effectively forced to use the braton, and not everyone likes the generic full auto assault rifle. This update throws a multiple-hour grindwall followed by 12-24 hour wait before allowing a new player to try any sort of new weapon (the braton is effectively the same as the mk1 in feel, it's just plain better).

[GTG3000]

Not directly related, but actually, the starting weapons are pretty decent. Cronus is also available early. I always find it a shame that the starter items are passed too quickly (and then veterans will buy them back to level them for Mastery.  recently got Lato back, unpotatoed, and using it in Saturn/Uranus).

 

As for hurting new players, I guess it is not the blueprint thing that matters but alloy plate. I do feel that blue printing the "advanced" weapons will make a better sense of progression (speaking from neutral perspective). But the alloy plate requirement is too high.. (wrt to the drop rate and that every other blueprint requires hundreds of it. Although Venus is quite a low level system, it feels like too much grinding to maintain the fun). It will also be more in line with the way new weapons are introduced. (previously, all the weapons were available from market because it is Beta, and there need to be testing before some stuff are properly in place, software-wise and community-wise.)

 

I think keeping the weapons as blueprints is better overall, but I also think that materials required should be adjusted.

 

It's kind of funny, considering, how Steve and other devs nerfed the Tolstoj (and added proper juicy credit rewards) because they considered players throwing away fun they could be having with the game with all the grinding.

 

Having the weapons to be buildable is okay, anticipation and such... But 300 alloy plates for something that is considered to be a newbie weapon? A required orokin cell for Bo? Instead of giving use to all the resources, that are widely underused, devs make the Alloy plates even more needed. Fun-fun-fun. At least rubedo sounded cool.

[Deadly-Bagel]

Everyone is so annoyed because this effects new players the most.

 

People who already have a set of high-level modded equipment can deal with this. A new player who wants to get an idea of what they want to use can no longer test out shorter (strun) or longer (burston) ranged options. They're effectively forced to use the braton, and not everyone likes the generic full auto assault rifle. This update throws a multiple-hour grindwall followed by 12-24 hour wait before allowing a new player to try any sort of new weapon (the braton is effectively the same as the mk1 in feel, it's just plain better).

So? A new player generally won't finish the MK1 in that time anyway, and the Lato is a reasonable single-fire alternative. Failing that, just run around swording everything. I still have the MK1 in my inventory because I'm yet to level anything better to use against Infested (in the process of doing so though).

 

I do however find it amusing that people are annoyed on behalf of other people. How about we let the newbies be annoyed by it?

 

Still yet to see someone say anything along the lines of "this has negatively affected me" other than those trying to get and max all weapons.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Deadly-Bagel

[ELREYULTIMO]

CrazyCanadian24, on 20 May 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

+1 This alone was worth the argument.

[Tabtree]

So I have a question: What if they introduce newer, worse weapons that could be bought with credits? (in update 8?) will that fix the issue? because if the only complaint is that new players dont have access weapons then should be enough, right?

[BentDownFork]

So I have a question: What if they introduce newer, worse weapons that could be bought with credits? (in update 8?) will that fix the issue? because if the only complaint is that new players dont have access weapons then should be enough, right?

Then it'd turn into a pay to win game, and nobody wants that! Also, ironic how DE is doing this because their game is expanding, but in reality, this is what most likely will lead to their downfall (as in they won't get any new players and some old ones will quit). That is, unless they can fix this somehow in U8.

[GTG3000]

So I have a question: What if they introduce newer, worse weapons that could be bought with credits? (in update 8?) will that fix the issue? because if the only complaint is that new players dont have access weapons then should be enough, right?

 

Bo is already a fashion statement. What else could they introduce? A gun worse than pre-buff grakata? Or worse than burston? They just need to make the "simple" weapons less expensive to make material-wise. I mean, there's too much requirement for alloy plates currently, and not enough for the actually common materials.

[SarNati]

I don't know what you're smoking, because that's pretty much exactly what they did - oh, sure, the added a shiny new warframe, woo hoo. Too bad you can only get it from an RNG system that wants to rip your heart out and eat it. Or you can hand DE your monies for something that has, up until now, always been obtainable from a slightly more forgiving RNG system. Thus, the addition of Vauban becomes null and void as a patch addition, since it is very nearly impossible to obtain via conventional means.

 

Also, I'm going to have a Captain Obvious moment and point out that you're a founder, and that's not helping your credibility. Why? Because, subconsciously, whether you know it or not, you don't want to believe the game is going P2W. Your mind does everything it can to deny it. It reassures you that it won't go P2W. It makes you think "nah, DE are such great people, they won't get greedy". Never underestimate human greed and its ability to corrupt. Ever.

 

I have two points to make.

 

#1. Requiring time farming for a weapon/frame vs buying it outright in a *COOP* game is not pay-to-win.  Its taking time to get it versus getting it right now.  Pay-to-win is only valid in competitive games where you spending money gives you an unfair advantage over me letting you win easier.  Letting you buy an advanced weapon faster in a game where you cant use that weapon against me, only to help me, is not pay to win.

 

#2. The problem with changing from credits to BP is not the change itself but the requirments of the crafting.  Alloy Plate is currently set to drop to little and plans require to much of it.  This alienates new players as it is not fun trying to farm it, and it makes longer-term players grumpy because it isnt how it used to be.  This is a BETA people.  Things are subject to change.  They will fix the drop rates of AP just like they did for Rubedo.   This is what happens when you play in a beta. Stuff you like changes. Stuff you dont like changes.  This is why many companies dont let you play till its finished.  We need to voice what we dont like (like AP being so bloody hard to find). But we need to be constructive and helpful, not poisonous.  Lets help them make a productive and successful game and let them actually try to balance before we hang them out to dry.

 

Yes, I am a founder. That means i felt this game was good enough to give them money to help them develope it further.  This doesnt mean i dont see problems.  This doesnt mean i'm blind to issues.  It means i see potential in this game and want to see it come to light, and want to help support it.  There are problems. i will voice them when i feel is appropriate or if i dont see someone else doing so. But i will also stand against those who feel entitled or like their world is broken because there (or even my) favorite frame is changed somehow. The game is continuing to be developed. 

[Drusus]

I'm going to say this because much to my surprise, it doesn't seem that anyone has volunteered the thought already (and my apologies if someone has and I've missed it).

Market changes are new and part of a stepping stone change moving into Update 8.

Please read that statement twice before you react to the next thing I say.

As a stepping stone change, that means that they released the parts that were ready and hopefully non-buggy. As it is, they were frustrated not to release Update 8 itself and a few bugs did indeed creep in (see Rhino Immunity bug, as an example).

The conversion of items to require foundry interaction is a very Good Thing so long as the materials needed are properly seeded and available. Do I personally expect the current BP values to stay the same AND the current Alloy Plate levels to stay the same? Of course not. Because I recognize that this change is a stepping stone towards the final state of being as is appropriate for a Beta series product and certainly consistent with a staged release of changes to content.

There is no scenario where leaving a massive materials shortage is consistent with DE's approach to date.

People need to start viewing things with more context and continuity in mind rather than freaking out the moment a WIP change hits and has a short term negative effect.

Should we raise that the Blueprints are far too alloy plate centric? Hell yes we should. It's a simple fact that if everything needs the one material, it's not going to work if that material is not readily accessible. Period.

Should we be grabbing torches and pitchforks over this when the simple statement of 'We expect the Blueprints and values are still being tweaked in short order, can you confirm?' would go a lot farther to being listened to, referencable and worthwhile feedback?

No sir, no sir we should not.

Edit: SarNati, thank you for at least trying to preach a similar line of thinking above. I, if no one else, appreciate it. +1 old sport, +1.

[Drusus]

Everyone is so annoyed because this effects new players the most.

 

People who already have a set of high-level modded equipment can deal with this. A new player who wants to get an idea of what they want to use can no longer test out shorter (strun) or longer (burston) ranged options. They're effectively forced to use the braton, and not everyone likes the generic full auto assault rifle. This update throws a multiple-hour grindwall followed by 12-24 hour wait before allowing a new player to try any sort of new weapon (the braton is effectively the same as the mk1 in feel, it's just plain better).

I should remind you that's not an entirely true statement. This affects those that reset (which are a number of founders who were well established) as much as any new player.

Again, I don't expect the materials base issue to be a permanent state of affairs, as I'm sure neither do those resetting.

For a new player, they will not have the exposure to see the choke to that degree at the current stage of the game they'd be at before this is addressed more thoroughly, I expect.

I may be wrong, but it seems the sensible path forward.

[anarchysince88]

I reset yesturday, plan was touse plat to buy Twin Vipers (was a pain to farm them up last time) and buy Latron for 50k credits. Didn't know about he changes to market, so 40k credits and whole day of farming alloy plate later I have my Latron. Alloy plates drop in such small numbers it took me forever, highest in 1 drop was 16 for me. Real pain.

[CrazyCanadian24]

I have two points to make.

 

#1. Requiring time farming for a weapon/frame vs buying it outright in a *COOP* game is not pay-to-win.  Its taking time to get it versus getting it right now.  Pay-to-win is only valid in competitive games where you spending money gives you an unfair advantage over me letting you win easier.  Letting you buy an advanced weapon faster in a game where you cant use that weapon against me, only to help me, is not pay to win.

 

#2. The problem with changing from credits to BP is not the change itself but the requirments of the crafting.  Alloy Plate is currently set to drop to little and plans require to much of it.  This alienates new players as it is not fun trying to farm it, and it makes longer-term players grumpy because it isnt how it used to be.  This is a BETA people.  Things are subject to change.  They will fix the drop rates of AP just like they did for Rubedo.   This is what happens when you play in a beta. Stuff you like changes. Stuff you dont like changes.  This is why many companies dont let you play till its finished.  We need to voice what we dont like (like AP being so bloody hard to find). But we need to be constructive and helpful, not poisonous.  Lets help them make a productive and successful game and let them actually try to balance before we hang them out to dry.

 

#1. Correction, a pay-to-win system is any freemium system in which it is all but completely impractical to attempt to acquire items without paying actual money to either expedite or bypass the endless grind altogether. Warframe isn't quite there yet, but it does seem to be leaning in that general direction for now.

 

#2. I am very much aware of this, and it has already been addressed by other posters. This has little relevance to the subject of this conversation.

Edited May 20, 2013 by CrazyCanadian24

[VentRoxas]

Dumb moves from DE. As a guy who reset my acc, im extremely disappointed that they changed the market ._. Hell, they didnt even let us kno in advance. If i didn't have a clan i think i can't even get a melee weapon. It's just so ridiculous how DE handles updates. Sure they let us know in advance that there will be a new warframe coming out, but big updates like changing the market. cannot be just thrown at our face when the update comes out. I looked up to DE beforee but uhhh this update is the last straw. Hell, i can't believe they make vauban parts to be found in '?' alerts. The rate of good items in '?' alerts are already bad enough. 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Seriously, what's everyone so hyped about.

 

Yeah okay it puts a proverbial spanner in the "own and max all weapons" works but new players aren't really that affected. I had like 2,000 alloy plate before I even made another weapon. Things usually aren't so easy to make in online games.

 

How about looking into a weapon and deciding if it's worth it before you craft it? Rather than after.

before, you could uby quite a few weapons with credits. now, using ONLY credits, you can get 8 weapons (start with 3, you can buy 5)'

 

 

boss stages are generally shorter, so fewer enemies, and some like the jackal don't drop any mods. Regardless of how you feel about the drop rate, or if it's been kind to you, the fact is it's VERY grindy to get even one new weapon for a new player, unless they grind one certain area for awhile (which artificially extends how long they play the game)

 

Also, on the drop rate for bosses, it's high that they will drop the rare mat, ~35% I think in my experience, maybe a little more for some (up to maybe 50% from like the golem), less for others (like vay hek in my experience, he's like 20% in my experience). For a full new setup,Bo Burston and a Furis,

 

750 alloy plates

100 polymer bundles (COMMON MAT and it's less than the alloy plates of JUST the weapon that requires it??),

600 nano spores,

1 morhpics,

2(!!!!) neurodes,

1,300 salvage,

1,350 ferrite,

1 orokin cell,

105,000 credits (as much as a warframe)

and 12hours of build time (not a prob there really)

 

The Afuris requires 4 neurodes, 600 alloy plates, 800 salvage, 1500 ferrite, 1 orokin cell, 70,000 credits, and 36hrs to build. That's pretty expensive in my view.

 

are those prices reasonable? Are they HONESTLY reasonable?

[Zarozian]

The real issue here is that they removed most of the optional credit purchasing weapons.

That was the sole purpose of this patch.

 

Do you think its a coincidence they nerfed the two most popular frames AND added the new warframe while altering the in-game economy?

 

If they only released the patch that altered the market place without the other changes; the ENTIRE forums would be QQ threads about the economy change. But by adding in the nerfs and the new warframe, people populate the threads with gameplay issues effectively drowning out the negativity from the market change.

 

They will very soon buff your precious rhino and banshee. Its all part of the plan. You will be happy because you think you "won" the devs over with your long feedback posts.

 

Meanwhile items that were changed from credit to plat will be just and afterthought. 

 

 

why no patch notes DE?

Steve is this your alt account?

[CrazyCanadian24]

Steve is this your alt account?

 

Oh boy, plot twist incoming, I can smell it from here.

 

[Gestalt]

Dumb moves from DE. As a guy who reset my acc, im extremely disappointed that they changed the market ._. Hell, they didnt even let us kno in advance. If i didn't have a clan i think i can't even get a melee weapon. It's just so ridiculous how DE handles updates. Sure they let us know in advance that there will be a new warframe coming out, but big updates like changing the market. cannot be just thrown at our face when the update comes out. I looked up to DE beforee but uhhh this update is the last straw. Hell, i can't believe they make vauban parts to be found in '?' alerts. The rate of good items in '?' alerts are already bad enough.

As much as I wish DE would be more transparent with updates (they are for the most part), and they do acknowledge that it's something they need to work on, a change like the market tweak would be rendered severely impotent if they were to warn the players beforehand.

Everyone would just buy all the weapons they kind of wanted but never bothered. The changes roll around: nobody buys anything via the new system. Except the reseters.... they're screwed regardless. Yeah, they really did in that slice of the pie on this one. "Want to reset? Here. Start it all over with these new prices."

Even the new players could hurry up and farm for the credits needed for a few of the weapons they really want. Letting players know beforehand would've been counterproductive to what they were trying to achieve.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Gestalt