A Full Rework Of The Lato And Skana Weapon Families

[Yezzik]

nuh-uh

 

Have some evidence. Namely, parts of the EULA that we all agreed to by continuing to use DE's services and products.

 

BY DOWNLOADING THE GAME AND CLICKING THE "I AGREE" BUTTON OR USING THE GAME OR INSTALLING THE GAME CLIENT SOFTWARE (THE "SOFTWARE"), YOU AGREE THAT THIS LICENSE AGREEMENT IS ENFORCEABLE LIKE ANY WRITTEN CONTRACT SIGNED BY YOU.

 

Digital Extremes may change, modify, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Software at any time. Digital Extremes may also impose limits on certain features or restrict your access to parts or all of the Software Product without notice or liability. You have no interest, monetary or otherwise, in any feature or content contained in the Software.

 

You acknowledge and agree that you have no interest, monetary or otherwise, in any feature or content contained in the Game. You further acknowledge and agree that you shall have no ownership or other property interest in your Account, and you acknowledge and agree that all rights in and to the Account are and shall forever be owned by and inure to the benefit of Digital Extremes.

 

Digital Extremes may update the Game remotely including without limitation the Game Client Software residing on the your machine, without your knowledge, and you hereby grant to Digital Extremes your consent to deploy and apply such patches, updates and modifications.

[TheBrsrkr]

Mk-1 weapons are supposed to be cheaper and new players to test out the basis of these weapons... and see what they like

but so far DE has not done a good job managing it!

I mean, a Braton isn't that much better tan a Mk-1 Braton. Same for the No, Kunai, Paris......

Why not just give that to them? It saves time, and takes them farther. Not to mention their precious credits.

[srlhama]

(trigger warning)

But if Prime weapons get changed in stats, it means they are not the same weapons sold in the founders program.

This means they (whichever prime weapon has its stats changed) are no longer bound to the founders program by law.

They can be re-released.

Either that or Prime weapon skins get released to the general public, while the actual prime weapons get their buffs.

(trigger warning over)

This make no sense for me...

Why change a weapons numbers mean it is not the same weapon anymore???

[Zavenosk]

I approve of this idea in general, but i feel a bit anxious about Skana Prime / Bright Purity

Perhaps Skana prime and prisma should be adjusted so prime is a bit weaker, prisma is a bit stronger, the main difference between the two being one better suited for status, the other better suited for criticals.  

[timerwin63]

~snip so no one had to read that again~

 

Firstly, I'm not even going to go into how broken the logic is there. That's like saying "I signed a contract with the bank to pay my mortgage, but I fixed up my kitchen and it's no longer the same house, so I don't have to pay my mortgage anymore." It's a ridiculous thought process.

 

Secondly, if this was the case, DE should have put the Lato and Skana Primes in the drop tables several times over, as they've been changed in the past.

 

Thirdly, as Yezzik says, they were never actually even bound by law to keep these things exclusive, but they're doing it to keep the spirit of the contract alive. It's a good faith measure, so to speak.

 

This was a thread about reworking a weapon family, not about making Founder Items available to the public. Please don't bring that here, it's not a productive conversation.

 

Put a skana prime skin on a prisma skana. I now have a skana prime that is, for all intents and purposes, better than the one founders have.

 

This logic kinda bothers me as well. Founders paid for a weapon. Not a skin. If we're going to make Founders' Primes skins, why not make all primes skins. Say goodbye to the Boltor Prime, Soma Prime, Scindo Prime, and Dakra Prime, and every other prime item in the game. Why is it fair that you get a weapon that's on a different tier and they get a skin that looks like a special weapon? In what universe is that not selfish?

Edited June 8, 2015 by timerwin63

[Pixues]

Firstly, I'm not even going to go into how broken the logic is there. 

 

And then you proceeded to go into how broken the logic is there. 

 

*drops mic*

 

On a very serious note:

 

I think all founders weapons and frame should stay untouched and in fact treated as a skin only. There are very large groups out there that were not here during the time of the founders program, not only that, people were required to pay money. The weapons should stay equal to their ingame defaults. If a weapon like a prisma comes along that is better, so be it. It is the best overall option. Asking for special treatment beyond the special looks is bs. 

[TheBrsrkr]

I thought this thread was more about the regular Plato and Skana.....

[timerwin63]

I thought this thread was more about the regular Plato and Skana.....

 

It was supposed to be. Somehow it's degraded into another Founders' weapon debate.

 

So, let's remove the Founder weapons from the equation for a second. Is there any recommendations people would make on the buffs to the Lato (Vandal) and Skana (Prisma) or the inclusion of a MK-1 version of these weapons to help balance the families further? Because I really do feel they need work.

Edited June 9, 2015 by timerwin63

[TheBrsrkr]

It was supposed to be. Somehow it's degraded into another Founders' weapon debate.

The OP literally said that he doesn't want this to happen.

I would say remove Mk-1 weapons entirely, as they currently serve no purpose besides a credit sink for newer players who are scraping the barrel as is.

Nice buffs though.

Edited June 9, 2015 by TheBrsrkr

[timerwin63]

The OP literally said that he doesn't want this to happen.

 

I'm fully aware, considering I'm the OP. I dislike what I've let this turn into, and I'd like to change pace.

[Naqel]

This logic kinda bothers me as well. Founders paid for a weapon. Not a skin. If we're going to make Founders' Primes skins, why not make all primes skins. Say goodbye to the Boltor Prime, Soma Prime, Scindo Prime, and Dakra Prime, and every other prime item in the game. Why is it fair that you get a weapon that's on a different tier and they get a skin that looks like a special weapon? In what universe is that not selfish?

 

First of all, cash exclusive benefits in warframe were always meant to be cosmetic or convenience.

That's how Prime Access packs now offer exclusive armor, but everyone still can grind away at the weapons and frames.

It's also why Founder Primes were never the best weapons around; even on release they were purely bling.

 

Second: Founder gear is a special case, SUPER SPECIAL, since they were available ONCE, and will never be available again.

That means NORMAL rules and logic for how to manage them do not necessarily need to apply.

Founder Primes becoming skins dose not mean regular Primes have to become them too, nor vice-versa.

 

Third, and most important, making Founder Primes into skins applicable across all weapons within a category(Skana Prime can go on all longswords and machetes, Lato Prime can go on all handguns), achieves two incredibly important things.

INFINITE longevity: skins never become outdated, never require another balance pass, and never upset the balance for the regular/less fortunate player.

INFINITE utility: by becoming skins, Founder Primes can be applied to gear at all tiers(not very relevant considering the rank of most founders), and all stat distributions. There never will exist a problem of a Founder Prime being irrelevant due to gameplay mechanics, and the founders will be able to show off their status at all times, once again, never upseting the balance for the regular/less fortunate player.

 

Let me reiterate this for you:

The "cost" of making Founder Primes into skins is: maybe a dozen people being a bit annoyed for a day or two, and DE issuing a couple thousand platinum worth of refunds(basically pocket change) to those founders that used Forma on their gear.

 

The benefit is removing the problem of Founder Primes being complained about about, requiring any sort of maintenance, or any potential of them EVER becoming a problem in the future, FOREVER.

On top of allowing the players who do own them, to use them whenever and however they please, with whatever weapon stat line they want to.

 

 

Oh, and also:

Fourth: The changes you suggest are incredibly shortsighted, and target only a limited issue.

Your attachment to them, as the person that came up with them, is the ONLY way you can justify those specific changes.

 

Meanwhile, my suggestion regarding the Founders gear can be at will backed up with examples of successful implementation from other games(PSO2 being the most similar), and examples of positive reception of similar solutions WITHIN Warframe's community(arrow skins).

[Raitlor]

~snipped~

Oh, and also:

Fourth: The changes you suggest are incredibly shortsighted, and target only a limited issue.

Your attachment to them, as the person that came up with them, is the ONLY way you can justify those specific changes.

A bandaid on a wound is better than nothing at all. Sure the wound may actually need stitches, but a bandaid at least acknowledges there is a problem that needs to be fixed instead of leaving the wound open and ignored.

A full rework takes time, and in the meantime would you rather these weapons become more usable for newer players or just continue being thrown away as soon as they possibly can?

[taiiat]

i don't like the thought of a MK-1 Skana and MK-1 Lato.

because the existing Lato and Skana are not impressive to start with.

i know you made the current Lato and Skana basically MK-1 and a new version of each that's a good bit better - but as the poster Weapons for the game, i just don't really know if i like the thought of having needlessly artificially nerfed versions of Weapons just because we can.

here's some thoughts though.

see that grip on the bottom of Lato/Vandal? i would love if that was rebuilt to be a Helical Magazine. it's outlandish and different.

then, Lato would be a Sub-Caliber, large Magazine Pistol. like, maybe 30rds.

give it good Status performance so that newer Players don't need to spend 50 or 60 hours in Warframe before they can actually understand Status. lower Tier Weapons basically all have terribly useless Status Performance. this means you're setting them up to not like Status, because as a new Player Status was not useful.

so like 15% Status Chance.

Lato Vandal, i would imagine: would have 30% lower RoF, higher Accuracy, a 40% smaller Magazine, 45% more Damage.

viable Crits(10%/2.0x), higher Status, like 18-20%.

26.1 Damage

4.69 RoF

20 Accuracy

Magazine of 18

10%/2.0x Crits

18-20% Status

Lato Prime... i'm not as sure as to what it's supposed to be as a role in combat.

i'm going to guess as a spammy version of Lato Vandal.

so then the same Magazine as Lato, same RoF, lower Accuracy, no Crits at all (yes, 0% Crit Chance), low Status, but deals 30 Damage.

30 Damage

6.7 RoF

11.0 Accuracy

Magazine of 30

0% Crits

5-7.5% Status

this is based on assuming Lato would stay as it is other than adjustments i mentioned.

as for Skana - why is it so bloody slow. i understand it's Damage being mediocre and supporting stats being nothing special, but why is it also the slowest Longsword (except for Plasma Sword which is a complete outlier, that Weapon just doesn't count).

make it have an Attack Speed of 1.0. i mean seriously. it's the standard basic sword. why is it slower than average? yes, you'll need to tweak the attack speed of some of your mastery fodder Weapons. so? they're also purpose designed to suck and make the Player want to get rid of them anyways.

Prisma Skana, as of now, is a faster Skana with Crits. stick with that.

faster, with Crits, deals same Damage.

if Skana will be 1.0, Prisma Skana would be 1.1-1.15.

Skana Prime, i would adjust so that it is slightly slower than Skana, but deals more Damage, and more Status.

so if Skana is 1.0, Skana Prime would be 0.833-0.9 (no, not 0.933. 0.9.). considerably more Status. i'd go for 20% Status. 48 Damage to Skana's 35.1. no Crit Stats at all.

30-50% innate Slash Status.

again, based on assuming Skana would be adjusted as aforementioned.

How is this raging?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

that's what it is.

Edit:

by the way, the Attack Speed of Melee's isn't Attacks per second. it's a % modifier of the speed of the Animations.

a Longsword of 1.1 Attack Speed isn't necessarily faster or slower than a Scythe of 1.1 Attack Speed.

however, a Longsword of 1.1 Attack Speed, when compared to one of 0.9 Attack Speed, is exactly 20% faster when doing the same Animations.

but it's not Attacks per Second.

Edited June 9, 2015 by taiiat

[Holeypaladin]

The only thing is, the suggested skana prime changes should also remove the ability to mod on Loka's syndicate mod.  Because that would be game breaking on a weapon that powerful.

[timerwin63]

~snip~

 

Thanks for the feedback! The addition of the MK-1 Lato and Skana were to bring them in line with the other existing starter weapons while also having an alternative (and direct upgrade) for a more viable version later in the game. This also allows me to bring the other weapons up to par with the rest of the offerings. I also don't necessarily agree with a 0% crit chance on anything, but that's personal opinion.

 

Skana can most certainly be adjusted to fit a 1.0 attack speed, and I'll look into the rest of the suggested changes.

 

As for the addition of a weapon built for status, I agree that there needs to be an early game addition to the status family, but I think the Lato might be the wrong choice. Instead I'd say we should probably put that on the Furis family (with the exception of the Dex) as status normally shines with higher RoF weapons.

 

The only thing is, the suggested skana prime changes should also remove the ability to mod on Loka's syndicate mod.  Because that would be game breaking on a weapon that powerful.

 

Ideally, this buff would make it so Skana Prime wouldn't be able to use Bright Purity, as it would certainly be overpowered. I don't think I mentioned that in the OP, but I'll edit it in now.

 

Edit: Actually, after doing some math, Bright Purity would break the entire family. It'd make the Skana Prime almost as powerful as a Galatine, the Prisma slightly more powerful than the Dragon Nikana or the Bo Prime, the regular Skana in the ballpark of the Orthos Prime or Tipedo, and the MK-1 Skana almost dead equal with a Dakra Prime.

 

Guess I didn't take that into account. After thinking about it, Bright Purity would be better suited as a Pangolin Sword augment if this change were to be implemented. That beauty needs to get some use.

Edited June 9, 2015 by timerwin63

[taiiat]

 

Ideally, this buff would make it so Skana Prime wouldn't be able to use Bright Purity, as it would certainly be overpowered. I don't think I mentioned that in the OP, but I'll edit it in now.

Edit: Actually, after doing some math, Bright Purity would break the entire family. It'd make the Skana Prime almost as powerful as a Galatine, the Prisma slightly more powerful than the Dragon Nikana or the Bo Prime, the regular Skana in the ballpark of the Orthos Prime or Tipedo, and the MK-1 Skana almost dead equal with a Dakra Prime.

Guess I didn't take that into account. After thinking about it, Bright Purity would be better suited as a Pangolin Sword augment if this change were to be implemented. That beauty needs to get some use.

don't forget this part.

Edit:

by the way, the Attack Speed of Melee's isn't Attacks per second. it's a % modifier of the speed of the Animations.

a Longsword of 1.1 Attack Speed isn't necessarily faster or slower than a Scythe of 1.1 Attack Speed.

however, a Longsword of 1.1 Attack Speed, when compared to one of 0.9 Attack Speed, is exactly 20% faster when doing the same Animations.

but it's not Attacks per Second.

[--.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-]

I have 5 star aklatos and yes I want that much needed deserved buff badly. At best aklatos at 5 formas is still able to kll stuff level 40s at t4 but ofcourse it takes a lot more bullets to do so.

[ppButWhole]

I think lato  and aklato cannot make a good weapon because: too low crit chance/damage, lowest status chance, 18 physical damage, it is really impossible make a good weapon even 6+ forma, i love aklato and they need buff so badly! for me aklato should be like this:

 

 

Physical damage 35,0

Impact: 0,4

Puncture: 3,6

Slash 31,0

Crit Chance: 1.0%

Crit Damage: 1.0x

Status: 11.5%

Fire Rate: 7.5

Mag size: 30

Reload: 2.6s

Accuracy: 11.0

 

it should be like this for make a really good secondary with 6+ forma in my opinion. The worst think about the lato is, lato prime..

Grand masters paid 250 bucks for lato prime and DE gave them +3 physical damage, 0.2x crit damage, +4% status chance, -0.2 reload time -,- 

[Yezzik]

First of all, cash exclusive benefits in warframe were always meant to be cosmetic or convenience.

That's how Prime Access packs now offer exclusive armor, but everyone still can grind away at the weapons and frames.

It's also why Founder Primes were never the best weapons around; even on release they were purely bling.

 

Second: Founder gear is a special case, SUPER SPECIAL, since they were available ONCE, and will never be available again.

That means NORMAL rules and logic for how to manage them do not necessarily need to apply.

Founder Primes becoming skins dose not mean regular Primes have to become them too, nor vice-versa.

 

Third, and most important, making Founder Primes into skins applicable across all weapons within a category(Skana Prime can go on all longswords and machetes, Lato Prime can go on all handguns), achieves two incredibly important things.

INFINITE longevity: skins never become outdated, never require another balance pass, and never upset the balance for the regular/less fortunate player.

INFINITE utility: by becoming skins, Founder Primes can be applied to gear at all tiers(not very relevant considering the rank of most founders), and all stat distributions. There never will exist a problem of a Founder Prime being irrelevant due to gameplay mechanics, and the founders will be able to show off their status at all times, once again, never upseting the balance for the regular/less fortunate player.

 

All true. Founder items being turned into skins would also let founders apply them to applicable dual/akimbo weapons.

And we know for a fact DE can refund forma, so that's not even a valid counter-argument.

[Rorgal_Sina]

First of all, cash exclusive benefits in warframe were always meant to be cosmetic or convenience.

Can you show me an official statement from DE about this? Because your whole argument hinges on this.

[WolvenEdge]

I've seen many of the complaints, and... well, they fall into one of three categories;

 

1;

YOU mentioned FOUNDERS items! KILL KILL KILL KILL

 

2;

I don't like the idea of adding a Mk.I Skana/Lato, I don't want to backtrack for the mastery/experience/roleplay, and it will damage new players further.

 

3;

This is a band-aid approach, there are deeper problems and these need addressed.

 

 

My answers;

 

To the first variety;

Go play in traffic. The OP stated they did not wish this to turn into a debate about whether Prime weapons belong in the game or not, or belong to all players or not, or ... blah, blah, blah. They exist, they are part of the weapon families s/he is proposing a rework to, and deserve mention, and even inclusion in the proposed change.

 

To the second;

The likelyhood of this happening is the opposite. Were such a thing to happen, if you look at the current stats the OP has posted, the Skana and Lato that we have now would become the Mk.I Skana and Mk.I Lato in the proposed rework, they are the same weapon. The proposed added weapons would be the Skana and Lato rather than the Mk.I Skana and Mk.I Lato, as the Skana and Lato we have now would just be renamed and the advanced versions added in to upgrade to should one wish. The new players would be given the same weapons we were with a slightly different name, and be allowed, as we would, to upgrade to the more advanced version should they choose.

     In short, the Skana you currently have in your inventory (and I mean the plain Skana) would be renamed the Mk.I Skana, and in the store would be a blueprint for the Skana, so that you could upgrade from the newly-dubbed Mk.I version.

 

To the third;

I agree. However, as DE has people working on this already, I would say to allow the OP's suggestion some merit, at the very least to tide us over until the damage/resistance overhaul is implemented, so that we can satisfactorily play with these weapons while DE continues their work on the long-term fix.

Is that an acceptable line of logic?

 

To the OP; sorry if it seems I'm answering for you, I have no wish to step on your toes. You seem to be getting a lot of negative feedback with very well thought out answers that have little to nothing to do with your actual post, and I wish only to help perhaps point the conversation in a more constructive direction.

 

Edit; minor correction, can't believe I didn't see that before. 0w0

Edited June 10, 2015 by WolvenEdge