Psa:ophelia And Hydriod Pilfer Swarm Nerf Hotfix 17.0.4. Warframe's Issue:farming And The Unhealthy Progression Of This Game.

[SickoSike]

It has come to my attention as a normal fellow Tenno player as you all are to post this thread about this topic stated above, I thank you all for taking the interests into looking at this post and clicking this thread and I'll apologize ahead to all quick viewers who tend to like to skim a whole thread and look for TLDR on this topic (Posted one anyways), I wish I could express myself in the most possible accurate way to put it there but there are a lot of complicated things along with mechanics that are at the very moment broken in this game and they need to be discussed here, and I feel it is my responsibility as a player, to express my full views and opinion about what we need/should try to do to improve this game and bring a more positive contribution and better feedback to DE on how Warframe needs to have an overhaul at the moment on drop rates, and rewards system.

Problems with this game.(Scroll all the way down regarding to Ophelia and Hydriod Pilfer Swarm nerf)
Over the past few days I've been looking at threads in this forums, generally around the feedback categories, in general section, around maps and levels, mission types and I see countless of threads every single day posted and updated with complaints about this game, and I feel like I need to bring this up to attention to all those who have a concern with the direction this game is heading, the grind walls, the RNG system, the way how the very base of the game mechanics work and how it affected us Tenno, who play our warframes everyday have to deal with the struggles of farming and actually making a healthy progression in this game...the things we need everyday like the Reputation system, Materials, Fusion cores, Credits, Prime parts, Warframe parts any of that sort I feel needs to have a sort of action put into place where it should have an overhaul in the way it's rewarded and dropped in someway and to do this I feel that DE needs to stop worrying about how Star chart 3.0 will and should be along with all other new contents for U17 and rather put more energy into fixing their game as they had promised for a Year Of Quality. (Note I am not against new content, that's always great especially for Exalibur...(He is awesome thank you DE!) but I feel there needs to be an overhaul with the game, how it's working at the moment, how it should receive more attention from DE and not be in the backburner, but rather focused and actually renovate and fix on what's been broken for a long time now.)

Camping and loot caves.
I've been seeing threads about how people are complaining that this game is revolved heavily on camping, the rewards and benefit of it outweighing into how the game should actually be played and appreciated by how DE released these game modes and blaming the idea on many warframes such as the notorious Gmag with the augment mod greedy pull and asking for a nerf on that mod, and I want everyone to realize that nerfing warframes do not solve any problems with how this game works, if anything warframes should actually be buffed and made more viable and not require LoS but rather AOE especially with how the way the map is made and built into our games where there will be a lot of technicalities and problems of actually hitting enemies with a push a button, a lot of people thought and think that nerfing warframes will help fix problems but many times we don't think about the consequences of how it affects the community and the game it self, especially with how bad stealth Nerfs were and people felt like they couldn't use excal anymore and others argued that we should focus on the game instead of pressing 4 all the time, that's alright everyone has their opinions. And I feel as a normal player myself was fed up with how the rewards system is going on right now in this game the progression of it, and I intoxicated myself when Vivergate and E gate was first discovered as a matter of fact take a look at Mogamu's point of view in this video if you have the spare time to meditate into his 18 minutes words of wisdom on how we can actually try to fix the problem with this game, and he's a die hard fan of warframe and I'm with him every step of it.

I want to make myself clear when I bring up this topic again, I don't want to bring old salt into old wounds, and that's not my intention at all, but many issues has not been addressed or answered in a cleared up manner, and rather trying to fix some areas where many players are divided, there is a clear division and a large sense of war-like feelings between players on opinions/ideas for Warframe and how it should be played and because of that I'm going to make this post and thread active again, despite the fact U17 is coming out in a few days! Yay HYPE! But let's not ignore these issues.

There is no problem with camping in this game, everyone has their ways of playing Warframe or Warfarm, and the tools Digital Extreme gave us allowed us to have fun in this game, while also be able to utilize areas where camping is necessary due to the point of how bad the weighted RNG is in this game. It would be border-insane to try to not camp while farming for the very resources you need or parts you might be looking for because the numbers are rather insane for some parts (and mods) to drop and many people find it a lot more convenient and more efficient to camp because you can have all enemies crowd up in one area with all the resources you'd probably miss while running around.

Camping has been a major factor and issue along with debates in this game because of the way the sheer broken game mechanics reward's it's players on how they interact and play with the game, it's sad to honestly see the fact that camping/macroing in a same position for a long time rewards players more than those who try to make an effort to have fun and be rewarded in a less matter because the most efficient way can be boring for some people and to that I'd have to honestly say it's some serious unhealthy game play not when it comes to camping, but rather exploiting the game.

However, camping is just a method to speed things up to success (just like rushing a mission is with capture missions or sabotage) and having some decent good loot along with more survivability as you work with your team to cooperate and be able to tackle challenges that most teams would not be able to do past 40 minutes in an endless mission and that shouldn't be a problem except most of these methods are borderline exploit.

There will always be a loot cave, DE
Warframe's game mechanic's I feel is broken and I think it needs an overhaul on how it rewards new players and veteran players alike, based on the overall experience, we might not be able to fix the problem we're facing now at the moment but I'm going to bring an example like Draco up. Many players feel Draco is a cancer to this game, I feel it's not the player's fault because if I can save time, minimize my effort and maximize my rewards, when doing a mass amount of killing in the same spot actually rewards me more than actually playing the game, why won't I strive to do it? Where's the real exact harm of actually taking the advantage of how the game is bringing me more rewards than really putting my heart into it? and I notice that and later on, I look at how I have been playing this game all along for a long time now, farming farming and farming and I tell myself, I honestly don't like how I'm seeing this game is slowly getting to a point where all we do is camp in one position, pressing the same buttons for many hours, this is all I could really look up to if I want to max out a new mod, or sell things on trading channel in exchange for the items I could use and enjoy, and looking at how DE is approaching this by slapping on more time wall, grinding with very long term goals such as Primed Mods really disappoints me. I understand this is a free game, but it is nearly impossible to actually achieve a completion status in this game, and I know there are many Completionists out there who actually feel and understand what I'm talking about what right now because the progression and time wall of this game are set up to an extreme, where a normal human being will eventually be fed up with this game as a casual player, leave and move on to another game and wait until more new updates arrive and the cycle tragically continues with players slowly giving up and quitting this game. So how do we fix this? Here is my suggestion. Let's Nerf the drop rate on kills we get and buff the rewards system,  NERF the loot cave, put the energy to focus on rewarding players for actually playing this game. Nerf loot caves, buff the rewards systems. SPY MISSION 2.0 was a step in the right direction.(even that got nerfed eventually after it's first release)

The Flaws of the game mechanics allowing loot caves to exist and be a dominant way of playing in today's usual warframe gaming.


Days after the E gate Nerf, Approximately 2 days I found out a way to go around the ''nerf'' of e gate. It made me very happy that DE James eventually responded this support ticket because at the time I felt I needed to do the right thing and bring this attention to DE to fix this game, and I happily resigned for a few months after to come back to actively be a part of this community. I was never contacted again after reporting this and I figured I should try and see if they fixed it.. and to my dismay.



This was me farming not too long ago what many thought was dead, E gate, shortly after leveling up the re-released Mara Detron that I missed after missing void trader..and after reporting this issue months ago about this exploit, I cannot believe the attention was not brought on enough for fixing the maps, I could not digest eventually how the rewards system is treating us players, and how EASILY EXPLOITABLE IT WAS FOR MONTHS TO JUST GO IN AND ABUSE A MAP TILE, and I heavily feel that this game needs to fix it's mechanics on how spawns are working in this game, and the rewards system as well..

 (Note, E gate has been permanently nerfed into the ground and this method will not work, if you honestly think I'm dumb to be releasing an exploit, shame on you lol.)

Fixing the rewards system, and rewards from killing mass amount of units.

One of the best ways to discourage loot caves such as Draco, (and other maps) from having large potentials for people to abuse is to actually BOOST the rewards from playing missions as they were intended to be, This has been repeated long enough to DE maybe a thousand times perhaps, and I feel like they're not hearing our voice exactly because all they've done was set up more time walls, more grind walls, more difficulty to a point where players are discouraged from actually engaging true and real game play I.E Nullfiers, Grineer Manics, BOSSES THAT HAVE INVUNERABILITY FRAMES PER SECOND. These hard counter units we're receiving lately promotes camping. Especially Nullifiers in regular gaming, you can actually just find better results in killing and farming low level enemy units, and not have to deal with annoying game-play. I hope for a more BETTER ENGAGING GAMEPLAY, that actually rewards you for what you're doing and playing in-game, giving more rewards to players who can get for example...get a kill streak not by just abilities but by game play and how he or she communicates with the AI system and actually playing like a real ninja in space, not camping in one spot and just bringing more content to favor a lazy man's  game. Lessen the extreme grind wall, lessen the time walls so that players can actually be able to achieve something in this game. Nerf the loot cave by buffing rewards system to encourage players to actually play this game, and I really feel that this attention needs to be brought to everyone who cares about the integrity and the health of this game, and I will repeat myself. Camping in this game, is not a healthy way of going about into playing this game. We need changes and solutions in these matters. 
Current Megathread on fixing AI Units for more better gameplay:https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/425117-rework-all-the-enemies-grineer-squads-and-the-grineer-hellion/ Thanks to AlphaHorseman

I hope you guys are with me on this. I love this game and I want it to be better for all of us to actually enjoy and appreciate the content DE provides us on a daily basis, and I thank DE so much that they're able to actually able to communicate with us on a daily basis and make changes, but I feel this game needs to reach it's milestones and one of them is by fixing on how the rewards system work, and how the very mechanic of spawning in this game works along with rewarding and implement real, and engaging team play. So lets stop the nerf threads on our warframes and actually bring the real problem up with this game down with a solution.

Here is a rough and brief history on the current problems with the game that has sparked up large amount of positive and negative feedback directly involved with farming, camping and how people are exploiting or cutting their way into large progression.

The infamous Greedy Pull Mag: Mag was (still is) popular to be of use when E Gate was first accepted and discovered and abused because she was able to pull all energy orbs, resources, credits, rare materials and mods to the rest of the team while they were able enhance their own ability to stay in one specific loot cave spot. She slowly became a bush fire after that...she was one of the warframes that slowly pushed Players to be able to manipulate the RNG system into their favor, despite after the Developers hot-fixed the tile spawn on e-gate on March 12, 2015, when players saw that they were able to have this type of control for the first time in their hands after the Viver exploit (which involved Syndicates having reputation be tied to experience...) It soon became inevitable for many Veterans and old players alike at the time, that the core system of the game was broken, and DE hasn't found a way to work it's issue to fixing the problems with this game, and rather instead of focusing some of the main areas that hurt the player base, they decide to try to band-aid some issues like removing the interception mission from Viver in Eris and replacing it back to the same design with Eris being fully infested node. After the Reputation system was fixed many players found the most easy and efficient way to farm up your reputation points and that was the Excalibur buff when they removed his LoS on his radial javelin and up came a team meta born with Draco being introduced and most widely played and asked for in recruiting chat and ultimately this led to a series of nerfs and large uprising of anger and salt between players and DE, eventually the augment mod greedy pull was nerfed to only pull resources exclusively to Mag now.

Feedback on Greedy Pull Nerf thanks to RevxDev

Source of Information on latest greedy pull Nerf.
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/484540-the-latest-information-on-greedy-pull/

The Excalibur Nerf DE soon took action against the reputation farming in the major update 16 The Sanctuary and the introduction of Chroma. When his javelins were reverted back to Line of sight and (awareness) which then soon resulted into having the team needing to make a re-work for him after many people brought up pitchforks and torches and did not appreciate Digital Extremes for leaving this huge context out on the community that they had stealth nerfed him. This had created a whole lot of shenanigans between players and developers and it brought up a lot of salt and a sense of belligerence among players with different opinions on how the game should be played. Everyone should and can be able to voice their opinions on how we all want to improve the quality and the performance of this game, I am now specifically stating this to everyone who feels offended on how people are honestly not taking suggestions well in themselves to understand that this is a feedback thread, please respect everyone's opinions even if their opinions are against in what you feel is set to be in stone, but it's not. This game is open beta, and we all still have a long way to go for this game to become fully complete and be able to give our hands to clap to DE for making an awesome game.

History of Hotfixes and Nerfs and current update.
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/344505-update-1520/
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/345935-hotfix-1521-1522/
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/422796-psa-radial-javelin-unlisted-changes/
Feedback after the U16 hype train de-rail.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/2zs2e0/de_what_are_you_really_doing_here/
Update 16.9.0 Excalibur Revisited update.
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/476490-update-1690/
 

Draco*: This very specific mission in Ceres, I honestly don't even know how to put it, it was a combination of everything, you could Rep farm in Draco, you could farm fusion cores, Orokin cells, T4 Keys that were very good such as T4 Defense and survivals and most importantly you are able to still power level your weapons in a mere 20 minute run up to level 30 for what it would take regular players to legitimately level their equipment roughly double or triple the amount of time in normal game play, it's still the one map people favorably go to daily because it is widely known, many players appreciate the crutch level game play of simply using Mesa with Trinity now since Gmag can no longer sustain other warframes. It slowly became an issue with many players because this type of camping was indeed and ultimately not healthy for players to abuse all the time, sadly in my opinion I feel that warframes should not be pointed at for the bad excuse of core game play warframe encourages in the first place. Since the Excalibur nerf, Mesa came rolling in to fill up his place. Since Gmag is nerfed now Trinity comes to her place to fill her role of a sustaining energy to Mesa. And it all boils down to this.. no matter how hard people try to fix camping and exploiting a specific mission or tile, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A LOOT CAVE due to the sheer fact that the weighted RNG that's being implemented at the very moment is very poor along reward system that advocates players to find a more and easier method to get around the large grind walls, time walls and rare resources all at once. And in order to discourage the current exploits that revolves around the issues with camping with some players is to buff up the reward for players more than just staying in one spot and doing a mass amount of killings in one concentrated area... and the problem is not with us players, DE has allowed the meta to take in and create a habit among all players to take advantage of the spawn system and the exploits that follows with it.

Another good video to look at along with his feed back as well about the current game since U15 a thanks to Janzer

Update 17 Lootcave
yes, the lootcave that's starting to turn into a wildbush fire and widely known now is currently in Ophelia in Uranus.(pun) Moving on with this current solution which I feel in my opinion is a total debacle specifically talking about the warframe that's now currently being targetted to being nerfed and his name is Hydriod. Now there's not gonna be a hotfix that will nerf Hydriod directly, but his very pinnacle and defining difference and use with many players will now be nerfed, and I'm talking about another augment mod that they will be nerfing and that will be the Pilfering Swarm augment mod which won't be affected by his powerstrength mods to have the added drop chance.

De's current reply and Rebecca's words quote on Hydriod.

DERebecca, on 05 Aug 2015 - 5:04 PM, said:

The next PC Hotfix will have something to speak to this directly: with Pilfering Swarm equipped, enemies won't need to be killed by the tentacles to have an added drop chance. Simply dying on the tentacle will be enough to trigger Pilfering Swarm. However, we will also be removing Power Strength mods affecting Pilfering Swarm to balance this change.
 

Another thing, that basically goes against with everything I believe this game should be trying to be focused on fixing with the current issues of the exploits and lootcaves in this game. The current link to the thread Rebecca has replied can be seen here-->https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/502088-hydroid-quality-of-life-adjustments/?p=5635620#entry5635620



This is another band-aid to another big issue that I believe will be a large backlash between the community and DE themselves, and honestly I am not going to be happy with these upcoming changes because the nerf barely solves anything with how bad the grind in this game is, and how bad loot caving rewards players much more than just trying to have fun in this game.

Current Lootcave in Ophelia will be fixed soon, and I understand and appreciate those fixes, but there hasn't been any solutions to this game yet that implements a re-work in how drops work in missions, nor is there any incentives for players to actually play the game except camp, and camping apparently rewards players so much more than playing!

In the end of this update I got nothing else more to say but this which I totally agree with this post.


Hydriod
I've decided to update the thread once again, and this time it's to inform and educate people who think pilfering swarm wasn't nerfed, and had the mind and thought to think that it works now, and benefits players more in the late game while it is true that now the pilfering swarm mod allows for 2x(before it was 4x with max powerstrength) the amount of loot and can now be built into duration, and enemies do not have to necessarily die to the tentacle rather on it which specifically has been stated by DE Rebecca earlier, I want everyone to realize, that this augment mod is not as useful as it seems to be now, because before the nerf on this augment mod there were several issues that tied with hydriod spamming Tentacle swarm such as tentacles not be able to touch enemies well with a DURATION BUILD, this led to players building up max powerstrength for max loot with LEAST DURATION. Molecular prime not being able to re-roll loot and Sayrn's Miasma as well because the corpse would disappear as soon as the Nukerframes and Molecular prime trigger on the corpse would disappear so these farming tactics people are coming up with now after this hotfix WILL NOT WORK.

1. Pre-nerf Pilfering Swarm scaled with powerstrength.
Additional loot can calculated through Chance * (1 + Power Strength).
Maxed Pilfering Swarm (Chance = 100%), and 30% Power Strength will result in 130% additional loot. This means that enemies will always roll loot 2 times, and have a 30% chance to roll loot an additional time.
With enough Power Strength (+184% at max), it is possible to force enemies to drop up to 4 times the amount of drops.
Works against Ospreys and other flying enemies.

2. Tentacles will not accurately be able to touch enemies as you build a fully duration pilfer swarm tentacle.


Take a look at this picture now with the pilfer swarm augment mod now, you and your team decide to farm a specific location, whether it would be through a sewer in survival camp, or farming for neurol sensors now on IO Jupiter or any of the darksectors tied with it. 12 tentacles now, not affecting any enemies directly through kills and only providing 2x amount of drops if enemies die to the tentacle, I want everyone to realize why a duration timer with max range Tentacle Swarm is bad, mainly because the 12 tentacles that pop out with this augment mod focuses primarily first on targets that were spawned near the location of Hydriod and is random, that being said, once enemies have been killed you can now reap 2x rewards from it, not too bad right? The problem now is that the tentacles will have a very hard time trying to touch other enemies, there were many instances with pre-nerf Pilfer Swarm tentacles with duration build of enemies walking past by tentacles like it was all okay, this led to players building with a least duration build, to more effectively be able to spam the ability and have more accuracy in picking up enemies from where they are at, because based on tentacle swarm, 12 tentacles have a high chance to spawn underneath an enemy or osprey but it won't always do that, and many times tentacles spawn areas in where it wouldn't touch enemies, and players would then have to wait out the duration to be able to replace the tentacles to a more proper position.

3. Least duration, pilfering swarm build today. The whole and main point of this hotfix, was to stomp on Ophelia's lootcave that many players were abusing with Hydriod, the main nerf was that the powerstrength no longer stacks with the augment mod, rendering Hydriod to be a secondary and less effective Nekros. Tentacles will now have to be spammed with only 2x chance of drops if they die on the tentacle, a duration build would not be effective to keep up with how enemies are positioned to attack the team, based on the randomized spawn of tentacles not being able to properly reach enemies to begin with. The Big Nerf of this hotfix was the power strength guys. Please do take notes from this.

That being said, I wish you all a good day, and happy farming, requiescat in pace Hydriod. Another victim of a larger issue that DE still hasn't solved with the puzzle of how they want their game to be, fun or grindy to no end.
 

Here's a rough TLDR of this thread, I feel it's fair if you click here to read and want it to be convenient
Don't Nerf Warframes or their augment mods.
Remove the LoS system it's very tacky.
Buff the rewards system and Nerf loot caves like Draco promote real healthy gameplay.
Put more real engaging gameplay for players to enjoy the content, rather than camp.
 

(editing for grammar mistakes, sentences.. spelling errors.)
 

Edited August 6, 2015 by MikeTheAshmigo

[vaugahn]

Nerf loot caves, buff the rewards systems.

 

I think you'll find this is a very unpopular opinion, but in essence I agree.

 

As for the last part about engaging gameplay, I think we need to seriously consider how powerful players should be. Hard counters like nullifiers and CC immunity seem to be the only viable way enemies can remain competitive, and I believe this is because we've gotten too powerful. If we meter player power a bit, we can get rid of hard counter enemies while keeping a degree of competitive balance. I also think the absurd enemy scaling needs to go, which could help with that process. 

[CY13ERPUNK]

I think you'll find this is a very unpopular opinion, but in essence I agree.

 

As for the last part about engaging gameplay, I think we need to seriously consider how powerful players should be. Hard counters like nullifiers and CC immunity seem to be the only viable way enemies can remain competitive, and I believe this is because we've gotten too powerful. If we meter player power a bit, we can get rid of hard counter enemies while keeping a degree of competitive balance. I also think the absurd enemy scaling needs to go, which could help with that process. 

 

yep

 

and +1 OP

 

hard counter enemies are a crutch of bad game design IMHO (or at the very least, the ones that DE has introduced are)

Edited June 11, 2015 by CY13ERPUNK

[SickoSike]

Thank you guys, I am happy and relieved to know that I'm not only one of the crazy few to believe this game does indeed needs serious tweaking into how it is at the moment.

[Vadrigos]

If you actually want a response, bump your thread every day. DE is averse to 'constructive' criticism that isn't praise.

[TheBrsrkr]

If you actually want a response, bump your thread every day. DE is averse to 'constructive' criticism that isn't praise.

Now now, let's not dissolve into conspiracy.

[Chiwwy1]

I completely agree with you OP. I feel as if the reason people do the loot caves through camping in this game is because it finally gives them some modicum of control over the RNG that works against them and to extent controls their progression.

[fatpig84]

Endless missions will always promote loot caves.

That is the fact of life.

 

Nerfing their rewards means a blanket nerf of mods, mob exp nerf and credit drops.

That is why I am not a fan of people trying to "fix" endless game farming.

Because this is DE, they only go Extreme.

And this will cripple non-endless missions as well since it will be a blanket change.

 

 

What I prefer is if DE made non-endless game mode rewards, a lot more better. 

So far the only 2 non-useless non-endless game modes that have useful stuff is Spy and Void sabotage.

Spy for example does give a very nice chunk of exp rewards per terminal and a chance for 3 rare loot.

 

Sure it won't be as huge as endless games, but I routinely hit 2k syndicate exp (no booster) if i am doing synthesis hunting inside a spy mission. So you can imagine how fat those exp rewards are.

 

 

In any case, I doubt this will be a problem anymore.

DE is going to blow up the map, so there is a chance there will never be a loot cave ever (like 20 missions but not a single endless mode hue).

Edited June 11, 2015 by fatpig84

[StonedMakak]

OP is spot on on the lack of choice when it comes to progression. There is only one way of doing things in Warframe, and it usually involves camping somewhere, pressing a grand total of 2 buttons. Everything else is redundant (with the exception of Spy, maybe).

 

Endless missions will always promote loot caves.

That is the fact of life.

 

Nerfing their rewards means a blanket nerf of mods, mob exp nerf and credit drops.

That is why I am not a fan of people trying to "fix" endless game farming.

Because this is DE, they only go Extreme.

And this will cripple non-endless missions as well since it will be a blanket change.

 

 

What I prefer is if DE made non-endless game mode rewards, a lot more better. 

So far the only 2 non-useless non-endless game modes that have useful stuff is Spy and Void sabotage.

Spy for example does give a very nice chunk of exp rewards per terminal and a chance for 3 rare loot.

 

Sure it won't be as huge as endless games, but I routinely hit 2k syndicate exp (no booster) if i am doing synthesis hunting inside a spy mission. So you can imagine how fat those exp rewards are.

 

 

In any case, I doubt this will be a problem anymore.

DE is going to blow up the map, so there is a chance there will never be a loot cave ever (like 20 missions but not a single endless mode hue).

 

Yeah I'd wish there was more things like Spy in this game :(. 

[Chiwwy1]

Endless missions will always promote loot caves.

That is the fact of life.

 

Nerfing their rewards means a blanket nerf of mods, mob exp nerf and credit drops.

That is why I am not a fan of people trying to "fix" endless game farming.

Because this is DE, they only go Extreme.

And this will cripple non-endless missions as well since it will be a blanket change.

 

 

What I prefer is if DE made non-endless game mode rewards, a lot more better. 

So far the only 2 non-useless non-endless game modes that have useful stuff is Spy and Void sabotage.

Spy for example does give a very nice chunk of exp rewards per terminal and a chance for 3 rare loot.

 

Sure it won't be as huge as endless games, but I routinely hit 2k syndicate exp (no booster) if i am doing synthesis hunting inside a spy mission. So you can imagine how fat those exp rewards are.

 

 

In any case, I doubt this will be a problem anymore.

DE is going to blow up the map, so there is a chance there will never be a loot cave ever (like 20 missions but not a single endless mode hue).

 

My biggest worry about the condensing of the map is that grinding will become an ever greater problem since there may possibly be less choice. It is not guaranteed that it will be that way tbh. It is just as we have seen from past experience with DE it seems that grind and tedium will be increased along with player annoyance and dependence on camping.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Chiwwy1

[SickoSike]

Endless missions will always promote loot caves.

That is the fact of life.

Nerfing their rewards means a blanket nerf of mods, mob exp nerf and credit drops.

That is why I am not a fan of people trying to "fix" endless game farming.

Because this is DE, they only go Extreme.

And this will cripple non-endless missions as well since it will be a blanket change.

What I prefer is if DE made non-endless game mode rewards, a lot more better.

So far the only 2 non-useless non-endless game modes that have useful stuff is Spy and Void sabotage.

Spy for example does give a very nice chunk of exp rewards per terminal and a chance for 3 rare loot.

Sure it won't be as huge as endless games, but I routinely hit 2k syndicate exp (no booster) if i am doing synthesis hunting inside a spy mission. So you can imagine how fat those exp rewards are.

In any case, I doubt this will be a problem anymore.

DE is going to blow up the map, so there is a chance there will never be a loot cave ever (like 20 missions but not a single endless mode hue).

I understand that endless mission modes promote camping, and that is why I feel that missions rewards needs to be more buffed to actually counter against this broken system that advocates camping, by Nerfing drop rates on enemies this will highly discourage players to do mass killings and instead focus on something more important and that's the game it self, I really hope they're not gonna blow up the map because that only damages the game further if they give only a few amount of nodes and remove content from what I believe every player should have their chance to get what they need on an everyday basis with open content as it is now. This concept made by DE Steve I believe was soon voided and right now the developers have no real idea what to do with starchart 3.0 from the last devstream and I say leave that alone...focus on more important matters. And I really mean it, this game needs to take approach and learn from the game Destiny. Edited June 11, 2015 by mikecliffs

[ArbitorSupreme]

Wat if the enemies health didnt increase but there just there tactics?.   Like killing floor ^^

[SickoSike]

Wat if the enemies health didnt increase but there just there tactics?.   Like killing floor ^^

I actually like that idea, I'm all in for supporting more real engaging game play from the Ai systems instead of hard counter enemies.

[Rem_NL]

wow, i made a joke by saying TLDR, got a warning for it and my message removed...  This will probably be removed too, I will get a permaban or what ever but i dont care. If I am not allowed to make a joke anymore no point of spending my time here anymore.. 

[Grom-84]

Im up for buffing the loot caves and rewards as well)

[Wargasm_v2.X]

Ahh, the "Completionist."  That one self-ascribed moniker would have us believe you're somehow forced to be uber-efficient.  After all there's SO many weapons, and frames, that it's only natural in your pre-ordained quest to "catch them all."

 

Let's be honest.  People are lazy.  Period.  And if poor game design allows you to be ridiculously successful by pressing 1 button people will do it.

 

That's not the game we came to play initially.  But if pressing one button in an ongoing effort to "catch them all" keeps you playing (and maybe paying) then DE will allow you to do it till your eyes bleed and you get tendonitis in your "press 4" finger.

 

Because if they ever did "fix" the game where you couldn't press 4 to win or sewer camp you would howl and rant and rave.  So keep pressing a button even HARDER and LONGER and maybe that part will drop.  You need it.  You must have it.  But do you even know why?

Edited June 11, 2015 by Wargasm_v2.X

[7grims]

good tread.

[SickoSike]

wow, i made a joke by saying TLDR, got a warning for it and my message removed...  This will probably be removed too, I will get a permaban or what ever but i dont care. If I am not allowed to make a joke anymore no point of spending my time here anymore.. 

Don't take things the wrong way mate, I understand if you want to make a joke and make light out of a situation of a serious post to lessen the tension and all, but I feel that if you don't any provide any contribution into either giving a good feed back and replying to my post without any real substance it's better to just refrain from posting, because from my point of view, after taking my time and energy to seriously ponder and think and come up with ideas with how this game should be fixed and headed for the right direction, that's the first thing out of your response and first post as well, with no regards of what I said above.

 

Ahh, the "Completionist."  That one self-ascribed moniker would have us believe you're somehow forced to be uber-efficient.  After all there's SO many weapons, and frames, that it's only natural in your pre-ordained quest to "catch them all."

 

Let's be honest.  People are lazy.  Period.  And if poor game design allows you to be ridiculously successful by pressing 1 button people will do it.

 

That's not the game we came to play initially.  But if pressing one button in an ongoing effort to "catch them all" keeps you playing (and maybe paying) then DE will allow you to do it till your eyes bleed and you get tendonitis in your "press 4" finger.

 

Because if they ever did "fix" the game where you couldn't press 4 to win or sewer camp you would howl and rant and rave.  So keep pressing a button even HARDER and LONGER and maybe that part will drop.  You need it.  You must have it.  But do you even know why?

I don't think you're getting the point, I do want Tenno's to become overpowered to have fun and rag doll enemies all day, but not to a point where it rewards you for camping in the sewers for hours because playing the actual mission actually rewards you less than camping all day with a couple of buttons.

Edit: People are not THAT lazy, Let's bring up Draco again, why does a regular mission give you little rep bonus and take hours of game time to fill your rep bonus that fills up daily when you can easily come up with a full rep run from Draco in 20 minutes? Maximizing efficiency by camping, staying in one spot and rewarding it. What I want this game to do is to remove that type of system where it rewards you for doing that, rather give you better rewards to actually play the game, it's fine if you're a fan of loot caving, but I feel that part needs to be nerfed and reworked in a series of complex things added in a new system where it won't affect or blanket nerf credits, fusion cores  and materials and or experience and test it to merit, and players should be encouraged to not spend hours pressing a few buttons in a same position and call it a day.

and to make this even more clear, I want to remove this type of poor game design, and improve it with better ideas and positive feed back for DE to take this into heart.

Edited June 11, 2015 by mikecliffs

[Seanjuju]

Comment

 

I believe the solution to mindless farming practices is to reform xp and reputation scaling, introduce different resource grades, and introduce enemy evolution. Teams unwilling to fight dynamically would be unable to farm efficiently.    

 

Copy/Paste

 

(22) Warframe's lack of reward proportionality has been magnified with the release of the 8-player trial. How does DE plan to create a standard for rewards within warframe? How does DE plan to provide proportional rewards retroactively in endless missions? Will trials be given proper incentives?

 

(6) Will enemies ever evolve with level? Rather than base stat increases alone, shouldn't enemies gain new weapon types, gear, abilities, and higher skill-demands?

 

(4) The mastery system is the original progression of the game. Can the DE team describe the mastery 30 player in terms of how they will differ from the mastery 10 player? Is DE comfortable with nearly all mastery ranks playing the same content? Does progression inevitably require division? Please describe the second solar system, the types of players found their, and the powerful motivating factors that will keep them from playing content far removed from their ability. Is catering content & incentives for players of different abilities the best way to combat mindless farming and macro-farming? 

[SickoSike]

Comment

 

I believe the solution to mindless farming practices is to reform xp and reputation scaling, introduce different resource grades, and introduce enemy evolution. Teams unwilling to fight dynamically would be unable to farm efficiently.    

 

Copy/Paste

 

(22) Warframe's lack of reward proportionality has been magnified with the release of the 8-player trial. How does DE plan to create a standard for rewards within warframe? How does DE plan to provide proportional rewards retroactively in endless missions? Will trials be given proper incentives?

 

(6) Will enemies ever evolve with level? Rather than base stat increases alone, shouldn't enemies gain new weapon types, gear, abilities, and higher skill-demands?

 

(4) The mastery system is the original progression of the game. Can the DE team describe the mastery 30 player in terms of how they will differ from the mastery 10 player? Is DE comfortable with nearly all mastery ranks playing the same content? Does progression inevitably require division? Please describe the second solar system, the types of players found their, and the powerful motivating factors that will keep them from playing content far removed from their ability. Is catering content & incentives for players of different abilities the best way to combat mindless farming and macro-farming? 

that first sentence in your comment, I'm in full 9 yards. Btw the copy and pasted questions, are those questions directed towards DE at the very moment in their thread? because I really do feel it's important that they answer these good questions.

[torsoreaper]

I totally agree with the OP and I would much rather play the game and get good rewards rather than run one thing mindlessly only to get 15 helmets or run T4D:C and get 4 formas. 

 

The main problem is that a game like warframe will get noticed on steam leaderboards or other such places by concurrent players and the company DE will get valued by how many "active players" they have.  Even though many people are not actually playing, but just grinding, these players help DE tremendously on both fronts.  Even scammers who just afk missions are still "active players" in the eyes of the statisticians.  If the game wasn't a time sink, you'd have a less "active" player base.  I put that in quotes on purpose.

[Seanjuju]

that first sentence in your comment, I'm in full 9 yards. Btw the copy and pasted questions, are those questions directed towards DE at the very moment in their thread? because I really do feel it's important that they answer these good questions.

Yes, those are a few of my devstream questions.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/472978-coming-soon-devstream-54/page-8#entry5269388

 

I'm most concerned about the quality of progression and evolutionary paths. Many gameplay problems are likely symptoms of larger issues in these systems.    

Edited June 11, 2015 by Seanjuju

[Davoodoo]

For me warframe problems are problem with de choice of payment model.

 

its f2p game, so you will grind and walls will grow larger as company greed grows larger.

 

Payday 2, got completely reasonable progression where at 400h i finished game.

Wow, got completely reasonable progression where i just need to play for about 2-4h a week to get my gear.

Dark souls 1 and 2, got completely reasonable progression and theres nothing else to say.

Me3 multi, was somewhat reasonable, you dont need to play that much to get all rare stuff though ultrarare stuff is just a pain because theres microtransactions.

Battlefield, completely reasonable progression.

 

But then

Planetside 2, f2p horrible grind where new players farm for weeks to get 1 gun and another few weeks to get attachments.

Hots, daily missions giving 200-800 gold randomly with champions costing up to 10k, thats 50 to 13 days for single champion

World of tanks, game being practically a hidden monthly sub, with players without premium being unable to sustain high tier tanks.

Warframe, horrible grind at every step.

 

Tbh im willing to pay few dollars and have reasonable experience instead of being nagged to pay 1/4th of initial asking price for every piece of new content which quickly ramps up to thousands of dollars.

 

Ill use dota 2 and tf2 as good free 2 play examples, where i pay because im having fun and game gives me something personal and unique for it and not because i cant stand playing it anymore.

 

At this point de simply isnt interested in reducing grind because they can get away with it and still make money.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Davoodoo

[RahuHordika]

Honestly other than rep the one thing draco is the best for is farming XP, I am aware you adressed that but let me continue. Ultimately I feel this goes deeper into the overall system, why do players need to rank up weapons? Mastery gain is tied to them and this is where I feel WF's progression system is kinda broken because ultimately DE keeps releasing weapon after weapon, gear adter gear, many of which gain the title of 'mastery fodder' and there is a general agreement that is it painful having to haul what one would consider junk over lenghty mission for a small portion of XP per run.

My point is, if DE won't ever change the way their progression system works, making players level up gear after gear they might not care about, then while I'm fine with equalozing the gains between the missions for the sake of variety I feel there should be a way to consistently gain XP between these as to avoid spending too much unnecesary time carrying 'useless' gear around.

Again, just to clarify, while I am all for equalizing mission rewards to promote variety I feel these XP grinds are so important because they are relievers to the rather bothersome method DE uses for player progression. Oh and forma'd gear has a place in here too.

[SickoSike]

Yes, those are a few of my devstream questions.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/472978-coming-soon-devstream-54/page-8#entry5269388

 

I'm most concerned about the quality of progression and evolutionary paths. Many gameplay problems are likely symptoms of larger issues in these systems.    

Thank you for addressing these questions towards DE, I really hope they will answer these questions soon.

 

Honestly other than rep the one thing draco is the best for is farming XP, I am aware you adressed that but let me continue. Ultimately I feel this goes deeper into the overall system, why do players need to rank up weapons? Mastery gain is tied to them and this is where I feel WF's progression system is kinda broken because ultimately DE keeps releasing weapon after weapon, gear adter gear, many of which gain the title of 'mastery fodder' and there is a general agreement that is it painful having to haul what one would consider junk over lenghty mission for a small portion of XP per run.

My point is, if DE won't ever change the way their progression system works, making players level up gear after gear they might not care about, then while I'm fine with equalozing the gains between the missions for the sake of variety I feel there should be a way to consistently gain XP between these as to avoid spending too much unnecesary time carrying 'useless' gear around.

Again, just to clarify, while I am all for equalizing mission rewards to promote variety I feel these XP grinds are so important because they are relievers to the rather bothersome method DE uses for player progression. Oh and forma'd gear has a place in here too.

Yes, for a while in spy 2.0 after it's first release, the method of getting EXP there was overwhelmingly more effective than grabbing a team at draco, getting chances at t3 keys, along with rare cores and post re-released event mods, with a large chunk of EXP added towards your warframe and weapons, you didn't even need a double exp booster, 2-3 runs in less than 10 mins at that time with an effective loki build was so efficient at speed lvling your weapons to gain affinity, but they nerfed that. and I felt they took a step backwards honestly after taking 1 step in the right direction for variety of game play, and progression in this game definitely needs to be addressed, between new players and old players who started this game, getting hooked on draco, and powerlvling extremely fast to a point where mastery rank doesn't seem to be important because at most you only need 8 to enter pluto relay here, and have most access to all weapons at your disposal, and I feel this needs to have a look on and be re-balanced for the sake of the health of the game, and some people powerlvl up so fast to a point that reaching a high mastery rank is barely a bragging right now a days just because of Draco.

Edited June 11, 2015 by mikecliffs