Going "back" Is Not The Answer

[Aggh]

So basically this thread is going 'okay there's a simple solution that works and we can instead create a far more complex situation that may have more bugs just because I really dislike the idea of having invulnerability in anything, so please don't use a simple, working solution'? There is this depressing pathological hatred of invulnerability frames in western gaming that is often massively detrimental to the game itself (ex: how useless dodgerolling is in this game) simply because people don't like the word 'invulnerability'. So instead of actually making someone invulnerable for a few moments now there have to be weird workarounds to get the same effect but with ten times the effort.

This so much.  OP has yet to properly explain why invulnerability is inherently unbalanced in the current game balance too btw.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Aggh

[MJ12]

Nah, they are inside most of those threads, there are people complaining how ridiculous they are at just zipping around with no care etc, most of the threads of course concerning it are toward the release of the game prior to people finally accepting that nothing was going to be changed about it.

 

Bullcrap.

 

Novaguard has consistently been considered underpowered on Gold+ and yes, those threads are towards the release of the game. Where everyone was playing on Bronze.

 

You never see Human Vanguards on Gold or above, and very rarely in Silver. Because it isn't actually the best class in the game. The general Gold-viable Slayer builds involve using phase disruptor and standing off, instead of using invulnerability frames.

 

If you're worried about mistiming or misjudging ultimates that's fine, speaking from my own experience its never been an issue, those things are pretty simple to account for.

 

Like I said before, bringing it back will just make it easier, you've as much as admitted that.

 

You know what else would make the game harder? If you were staggered by a single hit from any enemy, so a single Lancer could stunlock you in perpetuity. Turns out, 'it makes the game harder' is not a good argument for keeping a bad game mechanic, or refusing to implement a good game mechanic. Invulnerability during Ultimates was a great game mechanic because until it was implemented the only Ultimates which were ever worthwhile were the ones which were ridiculously OP and had huge super-OP radiuses which got boosted by 5x25% power range mods. Things like Blade Storm were just tactical suicide buttons.

 

So they gave ults invulnerability frames and nerfed their radiuses so you could no longer clear 5 rooms with a single cast. And the game was better for it. Now you want to remove those invulnerability frames

[Enot83]

MJ12

 

I think you're misunderstanding, and thinking I'm restricted to absolute opinions of black and white.

 

I guess you didn't clue into that when using the invulnerability skills of a class that is underpowered its pretty easy to do just about anything.  That was the point being made, that you missed.

 

The game isn't hard, and I don't want them to remove it, its already present, I'm just saying with it the way it is, its still not that hard.

 

If you find it necessary that's your opinion based on your skill level, or perhaps how you view the larger population who plays that they can't handle the invulnerability taken away.  I on the other hand think they and you can.  Again, if they brought it back for players like myself, we'll just continue to destroy things all the more proficiently.  Hoping for difficulty to come in other ways like the suggested difficulty ratings.

[finaLfrontier]

Because even with invulnerability using Ultimates could very quickly get you killed. You see, the best way to use them is against a ton of enemies, which means you're charging out against a ton of guys in the open to toss your Ult. Which can get you killed or badly mauled very fast. See, that's tactical. Now there's no reason to do that, it'll just get you killed. Instead, you only use the Ultimate while 'safe', which is boring as hell. Good job at removing the risk-reward calculation for Ultimate use because of your pathological hatred of invulnerability.

 

They were already high-risk high-reward due to almost all of them being point-blank AoEs and thus requiring you to charge out in the open for an extended period of time against a large amount of enemies to get in range to use them effectively. The current setup makes them high-risk no-reward, because against anything where using the Ult is efficient, you're going to die in the middle of the animation.

 

I wonder if we are playing the same game. Because I remember those exact scenarios being the complete opposite of how you presented them. Low risk, high reward

 

I can remember with both Mag and Banshee, sprint jumping into a horde of enemies, (by horde I mean 20+) using Crush or Sound Quake to kill everything unscathed. It's a combo that could be executed almost instantly. Oh, and my 400+ energy allowed me to spam these abilities over and over again no problem... And not once did I ever find myself out of energy, or once ever close to dyeing. Lots of reward, where was the risk? Well, it's certainly High Risk High Reward now isn't it.

 

So, to sum this up, everything you just said, but the complete opposite...

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

 

I wonder if we are playing the same game. Because I remember those exact scenarios being the complete opposite of how you presented them. Low risk, high reward

 

I can remember with both Mag and Banshee, sprint jumping into a horde of enemies, (by horde I mean 20+) using Crush or Sound Quake to kill everything unscathed. It's a combo that could be executed almost instantly. Oh, and my 400+ energy allowed me to spam these abilities over and over again no problem... And not once did I ever find myself out of energy, or once ever close to dyeing. Lots of reward, where was the risk? Well, it's certainly High Risk High Reward now isn't it.

 

So, to sum this up, everything you just said, but the complete opposite...

So you create a build with high energy specifically so you can spam it, and then complain a skill can be spammed?

[Enot83]

So you create a build with high energy specifically so you can spam it, and then complain a skill can be spammed?

 

Common known build for banshee.  The complaint is how obsurdly easy it is to spam the skill especially while invulnerable.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

Common known build for banshee.  The complaint is how obsurdly easy it is to spam the skill especially while invulnerable.

Then don't use that build instead of ruining it for the other people playing the game? It's not that hard.

[Enot83]

Then don't use that build instead of ruining it for the other people playing the game? It's not that hard.

 

Or you could just play better.  No sense lowering the bar because of incompetence.

 

Either way.

 

It's clear my stance as is the OP's I believe that we're fine with no invulnerability and don't dislike the change, and would prefer it is kept.

 

It's clear yours, MJ and some others that you oppose the removal of invulnerability and hope that it is brought back.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Enot83

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

Or you could just play better.  No sense lowering the bar because of incompetence.

 

Either way.

 

It's clear my stance as is the OP's I believe that we're fine with no invulnerability and don't dislike the change, and would prefer it is kept.

 

It's clear yours, MJ and some others that you oppose the removal of invulnerability and hope that it is brought back.

Its more likely that DE is going to listen to the players who don't have to rely on strawman and adhominem attacks. Just sayin'.

[MJ12]

 

I wonder if we are playing the same game. Because I remember those exact scenarios being the complete opposite of how you presented them. Low risk, high reward

 

I can remember with both Mag and Banshee, sprint jumping into a horde of enemies, (by horde I mean 20+) using Crush or Sound Quake to kill everything unscathed. It's a combo that could be executed almost instantly. Oh, and my 400+ energy allowed me to spam these abilities over and over again no problem... And not once did I ever find myself out of energy, or once ever close to dyeing. Lots of reward, where was the risk? Well, it's certainly High Risk High Reward now isn't it.

 

So, to sum this up, everything you just said, but the complete opposite...

 

Stop playing on Mercury. Grineer become immune to OHKOs from Crush somewhere on Earth, let alone actually high-level planets. Soundquake's damage was apparently erroneously given a ridiculously high level. Both of them are not 'I win' buttons on late-game planets. Also holy crap you build specifically to use your Ultimate repeatedly and then are surprised you can use your Ultimate repeatedly.

 

And you've never died. Once. From jumping into 20+ enemies. I guess they were all Infested and thus completely harmless at anything but melee range? Removing invulnerability frames doesn't fix this issue, even if you consider it an issue at all, because both Crush and Sound Quake incapacitate enemies in range. The only thing it 'fixes' is your ability to use those powers at all against Grineer and high-level Corpus.

 

I can jump into a horde of 20+ enemies with my Cronus and kill all of them unscathed as long as they're Infested. Your point?

Edited May 21, 2013 by MJ12

[Blatantfool]

Quick reminder that if you can't keep conversation both constructive AND friendly that I may have to clean up the thread a little bit. Nobody has any reason to throw attitude at each other. 

[Enot83]

Stop playing on Mercury. Grineer become immune to OHKOs from Crush somewhere on Earth, let alone actually high-level planets. Soundquake's damage was apparently erroneously given a ridiculously high level. Both of them are not 'I win' buttons on late-game planets. Also holy crap you build specifically to use your Ultimate repeatedly and then are surprised you can use your Ultimate repeatedly.

 

And you've never died. Once. From jumping into 20+ enemies. I guess they were all Infested and thus completely harmless at anything but melee range? Removing invulnerability frames doesn't fix this issue, even if you consider it an issue at all, because both Crush and Sound Quake incapacitate enemies in range. The only thing it 'fixes' is your ability to use those powers at all against Grineer and high-level Corpus.

 

I can jump into a horde of 20+ enemies with my Cronus and kill all of them unscathed as long as they're Infested. Your point?

MJ12, for the sake of argument I think he was referring prior to the change, not current.

 

Also mag can still 1 shot mooks at Kiste.  (higher level than earth).  For the sake of clarity.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Enot83

[MJ12]

MJ12, for the sake of argument I think he was referring prior to the change, not current.

 

Also mag can still 1 shot mooks at Kiste.  (higher level than earth).  For the sake of clarity.

 

Then he's either lying, letting other people draw aggro, ambushing from stealth, or using things like Shade's cloak to do this. All of which are adding far more complexity to the equation than just "sprint-jump + 4 = win". Because "sprint jump + 4 into bunch of guys gone horribly wrong" has consistently been the cause of the vast majority of my deaths. Tons of my kills, too, but that's the point. It's high-risk high-reward, and being invulnerable during the execution time is specifically what makes it 'high-reward' instead of a tactical suicide button you can press when you're tired of living.

 

Yes, above and beyond "fighting six Ancients at once" or "fighting Grineer and Rollers"

 

And is that with a maxed Focus? Because being able to do X with a fairly rare mod isn't really a good balance point.

Edited May 21, 2013 by MJ12

[Enot83]

Then he's either lying, letting other people draw aggro, or using things like Shade's cloak to do this. All of which are adding far more complexity to the equation than just "sprint-jump + 4 = win". Because "sprint jump + 4 into bunch of guys" has consistently been the cause of the vast majority of my deaths.

 

Yes, above and beyond "fighting six Ancients at once".

 Give me a moment.  Will update.

 

Yes, it does kill. Confirmed, your information is wrong.  Lvl 32 troopers seem to survive. so yes. earth you said?

Edited May 21, 2013 by Enot83

[MJ12]

 Give me a moment.  Will update.

 

Yes, it does kill. Confirmed, your information is wrong.

 

That's probably due to the relatively recent changes to Solo spawning, because Mag's Crush/Frost's Avalanche have tickled high-level Grineer for a very long while.

 

EDIT: Your obsessive sperging on when the Ult stops working effectively is just a smokescreen for the fact that Grineer do, in fact, make damage ults like Crush much less effective after a certain point which isn't difficult to reach. If you think we'll only ever get Grineer under level 30 on planets you're kidding yourself.

 

So a planet with Lv 30-40 Grineer (or worse, 35-55 like Pluto) already would make Crush a tactical suicide button with invulnerability. What Finalfrontier here wants is to make it a tactical suicide button even before that, because with the 120-150ish DPS single Grineer Lancers can put out 2 or 3 of them focus firing on Mag for 1 second (and it's quite easy for 2-3 to be just out of range) will make any use of Crush suicidal.

Edited May 21, 2013 by MJ12

[Enot83]

That's probably due to the relatively recent changes to Solo spawning, because Mag's Crush/Frost's Avalanche have tickled high-level Grineer for a very long while.

 

For clarification your information is incorrect.  It does not tickle in almost all cases is kills in one hit.  The more correct information would be closer to 30+ perhaps 29+ for some fine tuned testing by others on mooks.

 

Thank you for your input and contradiction that lead to the correct information being presented.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Enot83

[MJ12]

For clarification your information is incorrect.  It does not tickle in almost all cases is kills in one hit.  The more correct information would be closer to 30+ perhaps 29+ for some fine tuned testing by others on mooks.

 

Thank you for your input and contradiction that lead to the correct information being presented.

 

This is entirely a sideshow. The point is that 'at some point Ultimates become borderline useless even with invulnerability', which is also a sideshow to how Ultimates giving invulnerability never, at any point, broke the game. In fact, it was added because before its addition, the ultimates which weren't overpowered entire level nukes were basically 100% useless *cough* World on Fire *cough* Bladestorm *cough* Radial Javelin whereas now they at least give you a few seconds to take stock of the situation while you're invulnerable, remove some of the enemies from play, and allow you to recover from bad situations.

 

It's a sideshow's sideshow.

[ReiganCross]

I agree that invulnerability there is probably bad. I'm all in for damage reduction though. If you want to be picky about it, think of it - Sound Quake must be one heck of a pain for those who hear it. While experiencing it you won't be able to focus and use your all. I imagine it must be like rush hour stale traffic sounds, amplified by 1000, and being played, in loops, right at your ear. Ears and brains bleeding. Yeah, you'll hit whoever's doign that to you weaker alright, you can barely hold your weapon. But you will indeed try to hurt the one doing this to you, and if you connect a hit, you expect it to hurt.

Btw, I was thinking of a grineer Bombardier while writing this.

Well, yeah, that situation is fine but... I don't see how your guns are going to shoot weaker too, especially laser guns that would no be affected by sound. I'm a supporter of the original stagger idea to make everyone really quake while she does her thing.

[Enot83]

This is entirely a sideshow. The point is that 'at some point Ultimates become borderline useless even with invulnerability', which is also a sideshow to how Ultimates giving invulnerability never, at any point, broke the game. In fact, it was added because before its addition, the ultimates which weren't overpowered entire level nukes were basically 100% useless *cough* World on Fire *cough* Bladestorm *cough* Radial Javelin whereas now they at least give you a few seconds to take stock of the situation while you're invulnerable, remove some of the enemies from play, and allow you to recover from bad situations.

 

It's a sideshow's sideshow.

 

Actually ultimates still do alot of damage especially against specific forces.

 

WoF has been a known problem and has been discussed prior.  BS and RJ are both good skills if you use them correctly.  Also the BS teleport function generally prevents most incoming damage even with the current change in addition RJ's fast cast also makes your status of being vulnerable for its duration far less applicable. 

 

I suggest you come back with accurate information to add to the thread, thus far, your inaccurate information is going to mislead and misguide new or unexperienced players to make the same mistakes you have.

 

Also there is a great deal of additional synergy gained by this change that pushes players to stop playing solo at higher levels, who fall in the group of not being "pros" or whatever label you would put on them.  Instead playing off eachother's strengths becomes all the more important.

 

Due to the increasing edits...

 

 

EDIT: Your obsessive sperging on when the Ult stops working effectively is just a smokescreen for the fact that Grineer do, in fact, make damage ults like Crush much less effective after a certain point which isn't difficult to reach. If you think we'll only ever get Grineer under level 30 on planets you're kidding yourself.

 

So a planet with Lv 30-40 Grineer (or worse, 35-55 like Pluto) already would make Crush a tactical suicide button with invulnerability. What Finalfrontier here wants is to make it a tactical suicide button even before that, because with the 120-150ish DPS single Grineer Lancers can put out 2 or 3 of them focus firing on Mag for 1 second (and it's quite easy for 2-3 to be just out of range) will make any use of Crush suicidal.

 

Incorrect, at 30-40 levels beginning to use the ultimate twice becomes something that still prevents enemies from attacking in regards to crush and dishes out heavy damage (or killing).

 

You are providing incorrect information.  I ask that you stop.  Since you have clearly not tested this, as your information is completely wrong.

 

If using an ultimate on the more difficult levels with bad positioning and timing results in death this is appropriate.  This is no longer the starter levels, at this point if you have not learned these things you should be learning them.

 

This goes back all the way to what I said earlier.  That the change to adding invulnerability back in only makes the game easier again, which for those of us who have no trouble as of now, will just smile and continue on our way.

 

Please however, stop proliferating this thread with inaccurate information regarding skills.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Enot83

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Nah, they are inside most of those threads, there are people complaining how ridiculous they are at just zipping around with no care etc, most of the threads of course concerning it are toward the release of the game prior to people finally accepting that nothing was going to be changed about it.

I post on BSN. There's never been masses of people complaining about how the novaguard made things too easy. Some people do, but they're really rare, with the extremely vast majority of complaints about novaguards being that their players usually suck and get lost on the other side of the map and downed when they mistime a nova/charge combo. It's been like this pretty much since the beginning of ME3MP. Nowadays, the "most OP classes" don't include any vanguards at all except possibly Kroguard. In fact, the most OP classes by poll are the infiltrators with their ability to instantly drop aggro with invisibility. Just like Loki or Ash or anyone with a shade. Hmm.

 

In other words, I'm almost certain you're talking nonsense here. Either that, or you're so godly at gaming that you'll find just about any reasonable challenge utterly trivial. But if you are, the devs shouldn't cater to you outside of some sort of "hardcore mode" or something, because most people just don't have the l33t skills to challenge someone like that.

 

Could the game stand to be more challenging in general? Yeah, provided it's not stupid challenge, like rollers or bullet sponges. But should it be challenging enough that someone who can casually waltz through the top shelf difficulty in a similar game solo will find themselves heavily pressed? No, because that level of difficulty will stomp lesser players in the balls.

 

Warframe is billed as "ninjas play free", not "Prepare to Die" ala Dark Souls. And even Dark Souls has a few crazy good players who can utterly break the game through sheer skill. If you start balancing around Emarrel or the like you get something about as punishing as I Wanna Be The Guy - a game that only the hardest of the hardcore ever actually beat.

 

 

 

Also there is a great deal of additional synergy gained by this change that pushes players to stop playing solo at higher levels, who fall in the group of not being "pros" or whatever label you would put on them.

 

Yes, push changes that rely on group synergy at the expense of solo players... In pugs. In pugs when the netcode tends to cause lag issues. Sounds like a wonderful idea, definitely.

 

I guess you didn't clue into that when using the invulnerability skills of a class that is underpowered its pretty easy to do just about anything.

 

Except that's a nonsense argument in both ME and Warframe. The people who can actually take advantage of invulnerability mechanics like that are in top percentile of players - the kind of guys who you can't balance a game around.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[MJ12]

Actually ultimates still do alot of damage especially against specific forces.

 

Yes, because most enemies don't have the HP needed to stop them from instant killing. The moment that threshold is hit (Grineer hit it first, but it's not impossible for other forces to hit) they stop working very effectively.

 

WoF has been a known problem and has been discussed prior.  BS and RJ are both good skills if you use them correctly.  Also the BS teleport function generally prevents most incoming damage even with the current change in addition RJ's fast cast also makes your status of being vulnerable for its duration far less applicable.

 

Man what? Blade Storm right now is significantly underpowered. Radial Javelin is okay but it's just okay and before Bladestorm (and all ults) applied invulnerability it was the easiest way to find out that all of the enemies were basically 100% accurate zero-reaction time aimbots because it prevented absolutely no damage whatsoever.

 

I've played through the closed beta, I was around before invulnerability for Ults was implemented, I'm aware of what went on when they didn't have invuln, and it was extremely awful. WoF and RJ were absolutely, utterly, terrible before they had invulnerability frames. Bladestorm seems to still keep its invulnerability, IIRC the bug removing invulnerability while using an Ultimate only affects Banshee and Mag right now.

 

I suggest you come back with accurate information to add to the thread, thus far, your inaccurate information is going to mislead and misguide new or unexperienced players to make the same mistakes you have.

 

The absolute and utter condescension in this post is great. Thus far, all you've been doing is focusing on minor, irrelevant details to avoid addressing the meat of the argument. Your current post isn't changing anything of that. Please actually address the argument as to why invulnerability frames for Ults is a good thing (or at the very least, was not detrimental to the game) or stop posting.

 

Also there is a great deal of additional synergy gained by this change that pushes players to stop playing solo at higher levels, who fall in the group of not being "pros" or whatever label you would put on them.  Instead playing off eachother's strengths becomes all the more important.

 

Translation: This change makes Ultimate use on higher level missions nearly impossible solo, thus breaking solo gameplay, but f**k the people who play solo, they don't matter. I'm sorry, but if you think 'tactical synergy' and 'panic button' go together that's a joke. The whole POINT of ultimates is that they're a panic button. They can be used tactically but the primary use of a point blank AoE nuke is and has always been a 'get out of terrible crap' power.

 

Ultimates need to be usable, and useful, in a situation where everything has gone FUBAR. Pretending that making them unusable in such a situation is a good thing is actively deluded.

[Enot83]

MJ12, unfortunatly you have nothing to provide any factual information, or anything relevant to provide to the thread as you are now attempting to throw out more erroneous information along with contradicting your earlier statements.  I suggest you come back when you have gathered these things rather than an opinion that is based on incorrect and inaccurate information intended to mislead both the thread and anyone who reads it.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Enot83

[SkyllianBlitz]

I've played through the closed beta, I was around before invulnerability for Ults was implemented, I'm aware of what went on when they didn't have invuln, and it was extremely awful. WoF and RJ were absolutely, utterly, terrible before they had invulnerability frames. Bladestorm seems to still keep its invulnerability, IIRC the bug removing invulnerability while using an Ultimate only affects Banshee and Mag right now.

I remember those days. Bladestorm use to fly you around and you'd either get shot to pieces or take enough toxic damage to kill you. And you'd keep flying around killing things while your revive timer counted down. Which on the early day high end defense missions could mean flying around until you were dead.  And you'd end up way far away from everyone else because back then, Bladestorm dropped you next to the last enemy killed.

 

Bladestorm as it is now is in no small part to how things were like in the closed beta which involved the Ash pressing 4, kill everything, then die.

[MJ12]

MJ12, unfortunatly you have nothing to provide any factual information, or anything relevant to provide to the thread as you are now attempting to throw out more erroneous information along with contradicting your earlier statements.  I suggest you come back when you have gathered these things rather than an opinion that is based on incorrect and inaccurate information intended to mislead both the thread and anyone who reads it.

 

Enot83, unfortunately you have done nothing to provide anything relevant to the thread as you are now trying to sperge on an entirely irrelevant bit of minutia (does Crush stop instant killing at level 30 or level 25? NOBODY CARES!) and pretending that because I'm not so obsessively playing this game that my statements as to the fact that Ultimates should provide invulnerability because I can point out that a few updates ago they did not...

 

the result being that the only useful Ultimates were the ones which killed five or six rooms of people because they could be deployed from safety.

 

Does anyone who has actually experienced Update 5's Overload hilarity want to go back to that again? Or how nobody used Radial Javelin, Bladestorm, or the like because it was bad and using it made you feel bad and got you killed? (This was when high-level enemies did about 50% the damage and enemies spawned less often, by the way)

 

Stop being absolutely monomanically fixated (i.e. "sperging") on a detail that is, in the scheme of things and in the scheme of the argument, completely and utterly irrelevant. If your only rebuttal to the rest of my post is "BUTBUTBUTBUT you thought level 25 Grineer didn't die from Crush stfu" please leave, you're the one contributing absolutely nothing to the thread.

[Enot83]

Sorry that what you provided as evidence earlier was inaccurate.  You are wrong, in most cases.  Providing information to the community that is not accurate to create an argument.

 

As stated earlier, its clear you want the be invulnerable during the use of skills (ultimates specifically).

 

Clear that I and others think having no invulnerability is ok and in the right direction.

 

As the thread continues I think this is what it should be about.