Let's Talk Stealth 2.0

[Ryden]

We all understand that Warfame is designed with a mobile, high-speed philosophy. Every aspect of it caters to the run-and-gun gameplay, yet, even so, DE likes to classify certain weapons, frames, and missions as stealth-oriented, or rather stealth friendly. That's fine, so long as stealth is actually a viable gameplay approach. Currently, however, it isn't.

 

Stealth requires slow, patient, and calculated approaches to every encounter. Stealth missions should be designed around this philosophy, where players can create new builds that really flourish in these tactics. There should be missions that revolve around the importance and necessity of silent-footed progression. Being spotted should be a "CRAP CRAP CRAP CRAP CRAP" sort of moment, where the typical run-and-gun just won't quite do. There should be real consequences in being seen, and not simply a call for more foot-soldiers. Having "Mission Failed" is also a weak cop-out, and isn't much of a climatic, nor invigorating experience.

As for the slow and patient gameplay, I believe a cover system would be very beneficial. DE has stated that they feel a cover system would slow down the pace of the game, but in a stealth environment, that's exactly what needs to happen.

EDIT: The implementation of mission timers would successfully hinder players' capabilities of remaining too comfortable in a particular "safe spot". This is important for the pace of the mission, as it means that players are tested in their ability to act efficiently and carefully as quickly as they can.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Ryden

[-Kryptyk-]

+1 on all points.  I have been waiting for a cover system, myself, and the spy missions are just regurgitated run-and-gun type missions.  Not much to add here.  well said.

 

And possibly incorporate the game mode in a way that encourages, or is at least more fun, in a team environment, instead of having to run solo with a loki or ash?

[VKhaun]

I strongly STRONGLY disagree that stealth means slow, patient and calculated.

 

Isn't it arbitrary to focus on that concept from stealth games that just happen to be slow paced? What makes it GOOD to be slow? If anything the very factor which determines things like skill or difficulty in a stealth game is precisely speed. How long are you given to make a decision? How long do you have to cross an area undetected? How long will an enemy face a direction before turning? How far apart are "safe" locations that you can wait and watch in? etc etc.

 

If you can be slow, patient and calculated I would argue that there's not much depth there. If you're safe to watch and calculate slowly and patiently, you're really not being stealthy. You're just role playing a stealthy person who's not really being challenged at the moment. 

 

 

 

 

 

I do agree that alarms should be more meaningful, but would also ask they be less common.

 

I get very tired of hacking alarms over, and over and over again because every other enemy seems to just totally commit to sprinting off to an alarm panel to summon forth a level of additional attention that is only a momentary annoyance before I hack the thing back down a level again.

 

Lots of very simple suggestions have been posed over the years from restricting enemy types to only spawning during alarms, to having enemies spawn in pre-determined squads that present some challenge all the way to A.I. changes to set traps for tenno like lots of enemies retreating to a room and pointing their guns at a doorway. 

Edited June 20, 2015 by VKhaun

[-Kryptyk-]

I strongly STRONGLY disagree that stealth means slow, patient and calculated.

 

Isn't it arbitrary to focus on that concept from stealth games that just happen to be slow paced? What makes it GOOD to be slow? If anything the very factor which determines things like skill or difficulty in a stealth game is precisely speed. How long are you given to make a decision? How long do you have to cross an area undetected? How long will an enemy face a direction before turning? How far apart are "safe" locations that you can wait and watch in? etc etc.

 

If you can be slow, patient and calculated I would argue that there's not much depth there. If you're safe to watch and calculate slowly and patiently, you're really not being stealthy. You're just role playing a stealthy person who's not really being challenged at the moment. 

 

 

 

 

 

I do agree that alarms should be more meaningful, but would also ask they be less common.

 

I get very tired of hacking alarms over, and over and over again because every other enemy seems to just totally commit to sprinting off to an alarm panel to summon forth a level of additional attention that is only a momentary annoyance before I hack the thing back down a level again.

 

Lots of very simple suggestions have been posed over the years from restricting enemy types to only spawning during alarms, to having enemies spawn in pre-determined squads that present some challenge all the way to A.I. changes to set traps for tenno like lots of enemies retreating to a room and pointing their guns at a doorway. 

I see where you're coming from, but do keep in mind, stealth is the very act of going undetected.  That means having to carefully coordinate with a team and be cautious.  You can't just run into enemy territory that has large numbers and spotlights everywhere and expect to go unnoticed.... shadows, my friend.... not being seen is an art, not a playstyle.  However, you do need speed in movement to get to the next spot, so there needs to be balance.  If you have to cross a large space, there's both timing and speed involved.  When was the last time a ninja didn't use shadows, or didn't walk quietly, or didn't plan every move?  Swift and silent, but carefully planned.  Balance.

 

There is more depth in careful calculation than just speed running the entire thing.

Edited June 20, 2015 by PriZms

[ARavenousPanda]

they also need new ai scripts, currently if one enemy sees part of you for a fraction of a second, some guy 4 rooms over is hitting the alarm pad. 

[Ryden]

Isn't it arbitrary to focus on that concept from stealth games that just happen to be slow paced? What makes it GOOD to be slow? If anything the very factor which determines things like skill or difficulty in a stealth game is precisely speed. How long are you given to make a decision? How long do you have to cross an area undetected? How long will an enemy face a direction before turning? How far apart are "safe" locations that you can wait and watch in? etc etc.

 

If you can be slow, patient and calculated I would argue that there's not much depth there. If you're safe to watch and calculate slowly and patiently, you're really not being stealthy. You're just role playing a stealthy person who's not really being challenged at the moment. 

While I do understand and agree that quick decision making and timing does have its place in being stealthy, that does not mean that taking as much time as you can is out of the question.

I'm not by any means arguing to be allowed to remain in one position. Like PriZms says, there has to be a balance. Mission timers would rule out any chance of a player taking to long to make a move, and I think that's very important.

There would definitely have to be changes in AI, level designs and layouts to accommodate to the "safety in movement" progression of the mission, however.

[VKhaun]

I see where you're coming from, but do keep in mind, stealth is the very act of going undetected.  That means having to carefully coordinate with a team and be cautious.  You can't just run into enemy territory that has large numbers and spotlights everywhere and expect to go unnoticed.... 

No. No I think that's an entirely arbitrary demand. Nothing links the goal of remaining undetected with a slow pace. Yes you CAN go sprinting into enemy territory with large numbers of enemies with spotlights and such. You are a SPACE NINJA. That's exactly what you do.

 

 

 

However, you do need speed in movement to get to the next spot, so there needs to be balance.  If you have to cross a large space, there's both timing and speed involved.  When was the last time a ninja didn't use shadows, or didn't walk quietly, or didn't plan every move?  Swift and silent, but carefully planned.  Balance.

 

There is more depth in careful calculation than just speed running the entire thing.

What you're describing is a stealth atmosphere. A stealthy context. A stealth cinematic sequence. That's not stealth gameplay. If you can make careful plans, slowly calculate and sit being patient somewhere then that's not a balance of anything. 

 

 

 

While I do understand and agree that quick decision making and timing does have its place in being stealthy, that does not mean that taking as much time as you can is out of the question.

I'm not by any means arguing to be allowed to remain in one position. Like PriZms says, there has to be a balance. Mission timers would rule out any chance of a player taking to long to make a move, and I think that's very important.

There would definitely have to be changes in AI, level designs and layouts to accommodate to the "safety in movement" progression of the mission, however.

Timers are lazy and only reward practice and "safety in movement" in a thread about stealth vs environment is a phrase I find terrifying... but I don't want to take over your thread. It seems like you see my point about... "pacing" we'll call it... and that's all I can ask.

Edited June 20, 2015 by VKhaun

[Ryden]

Yes you CAN go sprinting into enemy territory with large numbers of enemies with spotlights and such. You are a SPACE NINJA. That's exactly what you do.

 

Perhaps we're looking at this the wrong way. What if grinneer and corpus soldiers are not what we're stealthing from? What if the enemy can't simply be killed by sword and gun?

Maybe it's the ship itself. Maybe it's multiple incredibly fast, hulking infested behemoths. Maybe the enemy simply cannot be gunned down. This can be made interesting

[-Kryptyk-]

Perhaps we're looking at this the wrong way. What if grinneer and corpus soldiers are not what we're stealthing from? What if the enemy can't simply be killed by sword and gun?

Maybe it's the ship itself. Maybe it's multiple incredibly fast, hulking infested behemoths. Maybe the enemy simply cannot be gunned down. This can be made interesting

you may be able to stealth your way through enemies, but not necessarily the environment?  interesting idea....

 

Space ninja or not, it's still "ninja", and I've never known anything related to stealth just run in guns blazing... that in of itself is contradictory to the  definition of "Stealth".  I'm not saying "sit at a table and plot every move at every point in the mission", I'm saying there needs to be more balance between being swift and thinking... Stealth is not a mindless run and gun type of mission, nor should it ever be, it's simply being undetected, and realistically speaking, it's impossible to kill everything in a room without some form of detection.  

 

Think of Assassin's Creed, or James Bond.... the only time you'd run-and-gun is when you're compromised.  Like I said earlier, balance is key.  Patience is key to making the right kill at the right time, or moving in a way where you go unnoticed.  Timing is essential.  Execution is at the core of it all.  Being swift is needed for moving place to place.  It's all balance.... not sure how that's difficult to get lol

[Ryden]

Timers are lazy and only reward practice and "safety in movement" in a thread about stealth vs environment is a phrase I find terrifying... but I don't want to take over your thread. It seems like you see my point about... "pacing" we'll call it... and that's all I can ask.

I didn't mean "safety in movement" as an actual mechanic of the mission. I meant it in more of an actual ability of the player. I understand what you mean, in that stealth shouldn't be designed as the idea of "stealth", but rather stealth is the ability to do what we're talking about without all the layouts and accommodations revolving around the centric idea of what stealth is. That there shouldn't be all the set pieces of a hollywood stealth sequence.

My point is, I get you. But even with all the open endedness of games like Metal Gear, there still are these set pieces. There still are these timers (on occasion). It can definitely be worked on in Warframe, and discussions like these really bring out some important discussions about the topic. That being said, I encourage you to not leave the thread.

[Fari]

they also need new ai scripts, currently if one enemy sees part of you for a fraction of a second, some guy 4 rooms over is hitting the alarm pad. 

Not to mention that the corner of his eye super far away is enough.

[VKhaun]

Perhaps we're looking at this the wrong way. What if grinneer and corpus soldiers are not what we're stealthing from? What if the enemy can't simply be killed by sword and gun?

Maybe it's the ship itself. Maybe it's multiple incredibly fast, hulking infested behemoths. Maybe the enemy simply cannot be gunned down. This can be made interesting

 

It could be kittens and balloons or spotlights or anything else. The point is they don't have to be slow ships themselves, kittens, fast infested behemoths, balloons, or spot lights or whatever else. They don't have to let you sit there patiently calculating for it to be stealth gameplay. Quite the opposite, those kittens and ships and unkillable balloons can pressure you, can force you to stay moving, can give you only small windows to react and make decisions.

 

The idea that stealth = slow or calculating is founded only in the precedent from slower games and I see no reason to follow that precedent for making or advancing gameplay. If you took any kind of gameplay in the world and slowed it down, the people playing it would say you dumbed down their game. Slow is the defining factor of easy, noobie, tutorial stages. It's lv1 of Frogger where you get empty lanes to not get hit by cars while you watch patiently and calculate slowly before you move on and start going through all fast moving lanes.

Edited June 20, 2015 by VKhaun

[Nighttide77]

Maybe DE can implement some of these ideas into Deception and Capture missions.

[Burnthesteak87]

First of all, give a look to this concept.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/451204-assassination-missions-rework-dynamic-challenging-stealthy/

Imho it could also be implemented a system based on Light and Shadow similar to how Mirage's Eclipse works to help stealth detection.

Also Crouching could make harder getting detected.

And what about a system based on Line of Sight in which a partial body detection would trigger a "investigation" action, while a full body detection would trigger directly the alarm on the single unit?

The system should be more refined in features like alarming sound like screams from units, shoots from gun, miss shots bolting near an unit setting it on an alarmed state, people dying in front of other people which doesn't alarm them, explosions, melee hits and breaking items.

But the major flaw that must be fixed is the telepathy alarmed units have. When one gets alarmed, even if it didnt' shoot or set up the alarm, other units will start moving.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[VKhaun]

But the major flaw that must be fixed is the telepathy alarmed units have. When one gets alarmed, even if it didnt' shoot or set up the alarm, other units will start moving.

 

Doesn't that make sense though? It's not a medieval game. Those helmets surely have some sort of HUD or at least a way to communicate in real time with their allies.

[Kalenath]

Doesn't that make sense though? It's not a medieval game. Those helmets surely have some sort of HUD or at least a way to communicate in real time with their allies.

 

That would make sense.

 

Stealth doesn't HAVE to be slow but mindlessly running or coptering through stuff is not stealthy. Well, for anyone except a rusher.

 

I have done stealth missions with all the frames. I have even done stealthy Infested Exterminate missions with all the frames now. It is not hard, it just takes more brain power than 'gotta go fast'. ANYONE can go fast. A 0 MR Mag warframe in the tutorial can go FAST. And people wonder why so many raid groups fail. 'Gotta go fast' doesn't WORK for some things. There are times for speed and times for sneaky,

 

Stealth as a group is doomed in this game as it is when all it takes is one troll or idiot to screw everything.

 

'Gotta be a jerk fast!'

'Gotta be an ! fast!'

'Gotta show how stupid I am! Fast!'

 

I WANT stealth in this game. I want to be a sneaky sort. I want to have a full team sneak into somewhere and never leave a mark that they were there.

 

But it ain't gonna happen soon.

 

'Gotta screw everyone who isn't a rusher fast!'

 

And then the ever fun-

 

'Where are you guys? There are 3 Nullifiers, 5 Crewman, 8 MOAs and 3 techs shooting me! They knocked me down! I can't get up! YOUR FAULT I DIED!' *ragequit*

 

Never gets old for some reason.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Kalenath

[Burnthesteak87]

Doesn't that make sense though? It's not a medieval game. Those helmets surely have some sort of HUD or at least a way to communicate in real time with their allies.

Then why there's the need to set on the Alarm? Shouldn't all the Installation get alarmed when they detect a menace?

Even if you kill a single target then enemies should get on alarm for a missing biosignal.

It's an element that really makes Stealth worthless and more restricted.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Kalenath]

Then why there's the need to set on the Alarm? Shouldn't all the Installation get alarmed when they detect a menace?

Even if you kill a single target then enemies should get on alarm for a missing biosignal.

It's an element that really makes Stealth worthless and more restricted.

 

Unless of course, they don't CARE about lost lives -Grineer- or are focused on specific orders given by superiors -Corpus-.

 

Infested now... Those I can see being alerted as a whole. Then again, I have killed an entire ship of them without alerting them, so... *shrug*

[Burnthesteak87]

Unless of course, they don't CARE about lost lives -Grineer- or are focused on specific orders given by superiors -Corpus-.

 

Infested now... Those I can see being alerted as a whole. Then again, I have killed an entire ship of them without alerting them, so... *shrug*

Sorry, but that doesn't make sense.

Maybe abusing invisibility. That's not stealth.

[Kalenath]

Sorry, but that doesn't make sense.

Maybe abusing invisibility. That's not stealth.

I did Infested first with a Banshee. No sentinel. It wasn't easy and it took a LOT of tries, but I did it. That was before the new Infested ship tileset came out. Now it is FAR harder to ghost through a level without Invisibility or abusing CC.

 

Frankly? it DOES make a bit of sense for the Infested to alarm when any are attacked and they can see the attacker. From what little we know about them, they are a massive group mind thing. Why else would Phorid spam 'Join us'? So hurt one and all feel it.

 

Haven't managed to ghost Infested recently, but I will keep trying. Grineer and Corpus never see my Banshee. Even if she DOES stand out, being all black as she is.

 

But I HAVE to do it solo. As soon as I open it up or forget to make the game solo or private I get some Rhino Prime Rambo wanna be who runs through Boltor Prime blazing.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Kalenath

[Kalenath]

Stealth as it stands in this game is hard to pull off. it takes thought. It takes planning and coordination. So people don't bother. Even if the stealth gets improved people STILL won't bother. It either slows them down or they like screwing other people. Same difference.

 

The alert mechanism needs tweaking except for the Infested. Leave them as they are. But alerting the entire Corpus or Grineer crew complement and NOT having the alarm still going is a bit much. I don't know about you, but if I hear an alarm and then it stops and an 'all clear' sounds, I relax.  A patrol sent to the last known location will be alert, ready for action. Others? Probably not more than wary.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Haldos
Cleaning.

[VoidNomade]

Fist parkour

Second new maps

 

Than they can decide what to do and i think there are missions type that need more of a look than this. And i think DE thinks the same.

[(PSN)batman200087]

No one knows the desire I have for a cover system.

I WANT IT.