Display Drop % In The Codex Or Foundry

[UnderFiend]

It helps people decide if they don't want to waste their time with a ridiculously low drop chance, or it simply helps people prepare for the grind.

Hiding the number just to keep players in the game is dishonest.

 

I don't know if "dishonest" is the right word.

 

One of the last times this thread came up someone went into chaos theory and the concept of randomness. It basically boiled down to the fact that humans can't recognize actual randomness. I think we all know that RNG in this game is weighted, firstly, but secondly, considering the randomness of rewards, if something is 1% or 10%, it would still be difficult to acquire due to that whole random thing. There are already plenty of threads on the subject of loot table dilution or people complaining that they've done X number of runs to get X thing but someone else got it their first time.

 

I just don't feel that knowing just how hard a thing is to get would help anyone, other than possibly traders set prices, but player economics are based on desire and how much anyone is willing to pay. Ash Prime launch day, the Ash Chassis was something like 125Pt, now it's 25Pt due to everyone seeing how "easy" it is to get.

 

Though I see where you're coming from, I don't really think it would add anything to the game.

[Liminal]

I don't know if "dishonest" is the right word.

I think it is. If* you deny giving someone relevant information just to keep them in the game, I'd definitely use that word.

*I'm not saying it is their reason, I give them the benefit of doubt.

 

There are already plenty of threads on the subject of loot table dilution or people complaining that they've done X number of runs to get X thing but someone else got it their first time.

But precisely, if the chances were properly displayed players would see their chances with their own eyes, making it clear when they were simply un/lucky.

 

I think adding transparency is quite significative!

Edited July 10, 2015 by The_Doc

[Davoodoo]

-snip-

No matter what it would have at least 1 positive effect. Devs would need to be more responsible with their promises. Too many times already weve seen promise of reducing grind only to have it increased next patch.

[UnderFiend]

No matter what it would have at least 1 positive effect. Devs would need to be more responsible with their promises. Too many times already weve seen promise of reducing grind only to have it increased next patch.

 

Valid. Especially considering the changes to T3D just now announced in the last patch: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/488176-hotfix-16114/

 

Changes:

 

• Reduced the frequency of Forma Blueprints dropping in T3 Defense Rotation C.
• Bo Prime Blueprint and Ember Prime Helmet Blueprint have been added to T3 Defense Rotation C.

 

Note: The changes to T3D tier C drops didn't dilute the chance of getting the Ash Prime part you're after -- they just added ducat-variety to the common drops.  Ash Prime BP still has the same drop rate as before.

 

I can see that as a little suspicious... however, my thinking is they just took the % away from Forma and spread it out to Bo Prime and Ember, but who knows... we can't see it. :)

 

I can see and understand both sides of the argument, truly, but for me, if I know Ash Prime BP drops in T3D, I'm going to play it. I personally don't need to know if it's 5% or 50% since it's the only place it drops. What I *do* think would be helpful is if we knew things that have multiple locations, like a T3 or T4, had a higher chance of dropping in a T4. That, I feel, should be clarified.

 

The whole system could use a rework, really, because it seems now that things new or soon to be vaulted tend to have a lower drop chance, then after the next Prime Access is released, that thing that was new is easier to get. However, this could simply be a matter of perception since people are trying for it less.

 

For me, it took 3 months to get Nova Prime, but I feel that was mostly because of the silliness of running ODS; the spawns and LS drops aren't the same as other Survival missions. Nonetheless, it's possible there's some groupthink at work here, and seeing the tables or at least if there are greater chances for something elsewhere would debunk these nasty rumors that DE is playing with loaded dice and those dice are constantly being "tweaked" at certain times.

[SonicSonedit]

Ha! Wishfull thinking! DE encrypted drop tables when we datamined that new prime gear drop is about 0.005%. So no, they will not show you drop rates...because they are still 0.005% for new items. Enjoy your "transparency".

[Chroia]

But what harm could it do. Sooner or later we're gonna figure out the drop chance is stupid high.

Without the official stats, it can always be counter-argued that 'you're just having bad luck'.

See: Any thread anywhere.

'I've done # runs, and still nothing! :'( / >;[ '

'Well, I got it on my first/second run. Must just be you.'

 

Also, PR.

 

DE publishing the drop chances will provide no tangible benefit.

As to 'building trust'... Not sure how well that'll work out, after reducing R5 core packs, adding OCells, increasing Forma BPs etc.

 

The drop chances can be found now, but that requires either A) having the know-how to do it yourself, or B) putting the effort into looking for them (p.s. most people don't) and hoping the dataminer is keeping up-to-date.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Chroia

[PsychoticMarik]

I agree they should openly display drop rates on every item.

 

Think of Monster Hunter as an example of how this is a good thing.

You want that Rathalos plate? Well its got about a 2-4% chance at most, and you have to do such and such to get a shot at it.

 

No BS. You know exactly what you're in for. Granted this information isnt actually in game, but as far as I'm aware Capcom have never tried to keep this information from its players. If I remember correctly they openly told their players drop rates on items since day 1 back in the official guide for the first game.

 

Granted Monster Hunter has loads more to do than Warframe, so perhaps DE really is worried its playerbase would fade, but thats a whole other issue entirely if this is the case.

[JDP04]

not gonna happen..

DE kinda more sneaky these days. They even don't apologize to the playerbase anymore when they do something bad. :/

[Davoodoo]

Granted Monster Hunter has loads more to do than Warframe, so perhaps DE really is worried its playerbase would fade, but thats a whole other issue entirely if this is the case.

Well then maybe de should do something else than introducing new, increasingly harder to get items.

[PsychoticMarik]

Well then maybe de should do something else than introducing new, increasingly harder to get items.

I certainly dont disagree. Its just that involves DE having to actually implement good gameplay mechanics.

Such as actually having good Boss and enemy mob design. Which frankly they dont have...at all. We've got 90% of the bosses feeling samey and generally being bullet sponges with little else going on. Then we have pathetically bad design with units like nullifiers, bombardiers, and hitscan based enemies with little to no actual variety. DE's take on challenging enemies is to make them cheap/unfun and give them lots of hp for maximum artifical difficulty.

 

Getting into all that here tho would derail the topic so I didnt want to elaborate. I'm almost wondering if what I just typed was too much.

[Davoodoo]

I certainly dont disagree. Its just that involves DE having to actually implement good gameplay mechanics.

Such as actually having good Boss and enemy mob design. Which frankly they dont have...at all. We've got 90% of the bosses feeling samey and generally being bullet sponges with little else going on. Then we have pathetically bad design with units like nullifiers, bombardiers, and hitscan based enemies with little to no actual variety. DE's take on challenging enemies is to make them cheap/unfun and give them lots of hp for maximum artifical difficulty.

 

Getting into all that here tho would derail the topic so I didnt want to elaborate. I'm almost wondering if what I just typed was too much.

I can blame them for early mob designs, but tbh i cant blame them for recent designs, not with amount of power player have, no matter how hard i think about it anything less than current nullifier simply wouldnt achieve comparable results.

 

Problem is growth without control which applies to everything.

No balance effort>player power increases>they are able to farm more efficiently>grind increases to compensate.

Ofc i cant believe that this is indeed only cause of current situation but its certainly major one.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Davoodoo

[PsychoticMarik]

I can blame them for early mob designs, but tbh i cant blame them for recent designs, not with amount of power player have, no matter how hard i think about it anything less than current nullifier simply wouldnt achieve comparable results.

 

Problem is growth without control which applies to everything.

No balance effort>player power increases>they are able to farm more efficiently>grind increases to compensate.

Ofc i cant believe that this is indeed only cause of current situation but its certainly major one.

You wont place the blame with them for the more recent designs, but then you say the problem is growth without control and no balance effort? I'm not trying to be rude but that doesnt add up to me. Its supposed to be their job to balance the game and create fun and interesting enemies to challenge us without the challenge being completely artificial. Thats how a game thrives vs just surviving.

 

I havent been keeping up with Warframe since the beginning but from what I've gathered DE seems afraid to change things due to backlash, and so are more content to either let problems pile up, or attempt to appease everyone too often. I also get the impression that they know of problems with the game, but still refuse to put on the breaks for some unknown reason.

 

I dont want to say they dont care because with the upcoming changes they certainly seem to want a better game, but I'm not convinced they arent incompetent, or perhaps the type of devs who procrastinate until something becomes a real problem.

 

I'm hyped for the upcoming changes to movement and what not however and am still hopeful that warframe can become something great instead of something good, but the list of issues is long and even if some things get sorted out I feel like massive improvements to gameplay through reworked enemies and bosses simply wont ever happen with this game.

 

Let alone nice little things like what this topic is asking for.

Edited July 12, 2015 by PsychoticMarik

[Davoodoo]

You wont place the blame with them for the more recent designs, but then you say the problem is growth without control and no balance effort?

I'm not trying to be rude but that doesnt add up to me. Its supposed to be their job to balance the game and create fun and interesting enemies to challenge us without the challenge being completely artificial. Thats how a game thrives vs just surviving.

 

I havent been keeping up with Warframe since the beginning but from what I've gathered DE seems afraid to change things due to backlash, and so are more content to either let problems pile up, or attempt to appease everyone too often. I also get the impression that they know of problems with the game, but still refuse to put on the breaks for some unknown reason.

 

I dont want to say they dont care because with the upcoming changes they certainly seem to want a better game, but I'm not convinced they arent incompetent, or perhaps the type of devs who procrastinate until something becomes a real problem.

 

I'm hyped for the upcoming changes to movement and what not however and am still hopeful that warframe can become something great instead of something good, but the list of issues is long and even if some things get sorted out I feel like massive improvements to gameplay through reworked enemies and bosses simply wont ever happen with this game.

 

Let alone nice little things like what this topic is asking for.

Recent enemy designs actually serve their role pretty well, instead of being sophisticated to require tactics theyre just cheap to fight cheesing.

 

Yes lack of balance effort led to this and ill blame them for that, however late designs are actually made for the game in its current state and they actually work by countering broken with broken.

 

Backlash maybe, probably it is part of problem. However to me it seems they simply doesnt have manpower, content they deliver is really minimal and bigger features are at best weeks worth of work for bigger companies. 200 ppl work at de, how many work at warframe is unknown, however ill bet my &#! that at least twice as much work on sword coast legends. Then we cant exclude greed, all of content either way is designed around making money even raids and especially void trader.

[Liminal]

DE publishing the drop chances will provide no tangible benefit.

I disagree entirely. Yes, it would make us trust them more (not absolute trust, but still), and it completely solves this:

'I've done # runs, and still nothing! :'( / >;[ '

 

I mean, it would definitely make some (if not "most") of us a lot happier. How is that not good enough?

 

The drop chances can be found now, but that requires either A) having the know-how to do it yourself, or B) putting the effort into looking for them (p.s. most people don't) and hoping the dataminer is keeping up-to-date.

Really ... be kind enough to tell us where they are, because I'm pretty sure can't be mined since the tables are encrypted.

Edited July 12, 2015 by The_Doc

[Liminal]

I certainly dont disagree. Its just that involves DE having to actually implement good gameplay mechanics.

I actually believe their gameplay mechanics are mostly okay, what they need is balance and better reward mechanics.

However, if none of those are changed I still believe they can display this info without a single downside while being fair to their players.

[(XBOX)BluAina]

People would literally drop the game like a bad habit of any rates were revealed, I can't see this as being good

[Liminal]

People would literally drop the game like a bad habit of any rates were revealed, I can't see this as being good

Then make the rates more user friendly.

 

If you need to hide information to retain your customers you know you are doing something wrong.

If you are doing something wrong and hiding it so that your customers don't leave, you're being dishonest.

[Chroia]

Point by point:

 

 

I disagree entirely. 

 

Feel free to explain it, though.

 

 

Yes, it would make us trust them more (not absolute trust, but still),

Explain how you came to this conclusion, please.

 

 

it completely solves this:

Again, explain please.

knowing that the drop rates are whatever they are doesn't change the feeling of gnrfl after a not-inconsiderable amount of effort is invested with no return.

 

 

I mean, it would definitely make some (if not "most") of us a lot happier. How is that not good enough?

Because, seen through the lens of 'businesses exist to make money', 'us' being 'happier' isn't the objective.

Heck, even without touching (revealing or changing) the drop chances, there's a trivially simple way of making 'us' happier: Get the junk rewards (uncommon cores, Orokin Cells, etc.) out of the void.

And yet, I don't see that happening.

 

 

Really ... be kind enough to tell us where they are, because I'm pretty sure can't be mined since the tables are encrypted.

Can't, against ToS.

There are other, non-DE-owned/controlled WF-centric boards, and they're easily findable there.

If you need a pointer, I'd start from Reddit.

 

 

-----

 

 

Then make the rates more user friendly.

 

If you need to hide information to retain your customers you know you are doing something wrong.

If you are doing something wrong and hiding it so that your customers don't leave, you're being dishonest.

Quite.

[FaLKReN]

Then make the rates more user friendly.

 

If you need to hide information to retain your customers you know you are doing something wrong.

If you are doing something wrong and hiding it so that your customers don't leave, you're being dishonest.

 

THIS! Words to live by DE...

[Guest (PS4)Baby0Shaq34]

THIS! Words to live by DE...

Exactly

[Liminal]

 

Feel free to explain it, though.

 

Explain how you came to this conclusion, please.

Look at this thread alone. I'm not the only one who would welcome this. Of course it's personal opinion, as is your opinion of "it doesn't help", however the fact that many of us would be happier with the stats makes it objectively positive.

 

Again, explain please.

knowing that the drop rates are whatever they are doesn't change the feeling of gnrfl after a not-inconsiderable amount of effort is invested with no return.

It stops people from assuming something has a low chance if they don't get it in 3 runs. It helps people say "oh, 2%, I'll have to run like 70 of them to have a 75% of getting it", and if they are unlucky, they are unlucky. Many of the "I ran X 100 times" probably wouldn't even happen.

And it helps mentally preparing yourself: if you see an item has a 2% drop chance you simply don't expect to get it in just a few runs.

 

Because, seen through the lens of 'businesses exist to make money', 'us' being 'happier' isn't the objective.

Heck, even without touching (revealing or changing) the drop chances, there's a trivially simple way of making 'us' happier: Get the junk rewards (uncommon cores, Orokin Cells, etc.) out of the void.

And yet, I don't see that happening.

Customer satisfaction is a thing in pretty much every business (except Guantanamo Bay). It helps with the money part.

 

 

I think you're arguing that they won't do it, not with the idea itself. I don't care what they may do, it's a feedback idea in a feedback forum.

[torsoreaper]

I think people are widely over estimating how low the drop rates are. 

Lets assume 20 missions played (not that hard for t2's and t1's, considering the backlog that people have).

at a 15% drop chance over twenty missions, only 3.9% of people will not have the part they seek (.85^20)

At a 10% drop chance over twenty missions only 12.2% of people will not have the part they seek (.9^20) [note the dramatic raise in chance you don't have it], 

At a 5% drop chance over twenty missions a whopping 35.8% of people won't have it (.95^20), which is pretty significant, considering you'd have to do 40 missions to get your chance of not getting the part down to the 10% drop level, at roughly 12.9% (.95^40).

Now a drop chance of 10% isn't that bad, and some where in between that and 7% could be manageable, especially when you consider that some people get more than one, and not all people do 20 missions, just until the point until they get it. The problems we get with RNG are when we can do 20 missions and still have more than a 1/3 chance of not finding that item. Heck at 1% drop chance you can do 100 missions and still have a 36.6% chance of not getting the item. (for those interested, 20 missions means 81.8% chance of not getting it at 1%). 

What i suspect (can't prove it of course, nor do i think its wrong) is that the drop chances are modified in some of the hotfixes so when items are new/getting retired, they are rarer. This encourages gameplay, which is fine and all, its just to what degree. 10% is reasonable, because doing a mission 20 times for one part, while tedious, manages to allow near 90% of the player base to at least have 1. That remain 10% is what fuels trading, assuming they give up at 20 missions. 15% makes an item incredibly comon (10 missions yield a 80.3% chance of getting the item). 5% on the other hand makes an item pretty rare even if you can burn through the missions quickly, which basically means 5% on a survival, defense, and to a lesser degree interception is a killer and makes the item exceedingly rare. Anything less than 1% makes the item mythical for months after its introduced. 

 

While I understand the codex idea, and its an alright idea, I feel like it would too often lag behind the hotfix changes, and would summon a wave of butthurt everytime something's drop rate changed (drop rate increases? "Its TOO EAsY 2 GIT!!!1!" drop rate decreases? "Its ToO RARe, RNGEsUs pLZ!!!1!). I'd much rather get a range (5-15%) guarantee on most of the items in the void, barring items in the A rotations (can come up twice in 10 minutes) and items in the C rotation (take 20 minutes to get 1, they shouldn't have less than 7.5% drop).  This would let DE do their thing, and we'd at least know it was the odds, not absurdly low drop chance.

 

This would make sense except for the fact that people have easily run missions 50 or 100 times and still have not gotten the drop.  I probably ran 50 spy missions trying to get Rime Rounds.  In a statistically perfect world, at a 2% drop chance I would have hit it at least once.

[paolike]

I like the idea, but if they show us the drop rate of ash p sys a lot of us would stop farming for it because of the ridiculous drop rate lol

[Chroia]

Look at this thread alone. I'm not the only one who would welcome this. Of course it's personal opinion, as is your opinion of "it doesn't help", however the fact that many of us would be happier with the stats makes it objectively positive.

'This thread' =/= many.

That aside, I'm not asking 'yes/no', I'm asking why.

 

 

1) It stops people from assuming something has a low chance if they don't get it in 3 runs. 2) It helps people say "oh, 2%, I'll have to run like 70 of them to have a 75% of getting it", and if they are unlucky, they are unlucky. 3) Many of the "I ran X 100 times" probably wouldn't even happen.

4) And it helps mentally preparing yourself: if you see an item has a 2% drop chance you simply don't expect to get it in just a few runs.

1) 3 runs is too few to base on, even I know that.

2) yes, but then people will complain about 'why is it so low', so one step forward one step back, and you stay in place.

3) I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that 'I ran X # of times' stems primarily from frustration at wasted effort.

Knowing that the drop chance is low won't change that.

(Also, at 2% chance, you should have gotten 2 in 100 runs, on average, I believe.)

4) Certainly. But see 2.

 

 

Customer satisfaction is a thing in pretty much every business (except Guantanamo Bay). It helps with the money part.

Only when you're counting on repeat customers rather than turnover.

 

 

1) I think you're arguing that they won't do it, not with the idea itself. 2) I don't care what they may do, it's a feedback idea in a feedback forum.

 

1) Yup. I'd love the drop chances to be included in the tables.

Security through obscurity doesn't work in cases like this. Quite aside from damatminers, you have too many people coordinating too large a sample size.

2) Well, the point of feedback is to influence, no?

Whatever, fair enough.  I'll just move along then.

gl.