(Equinox Feedback/discussion) Descott - "i Believe The Good Players Will Keep Switching Forms To Maintain These Buffs"

[fatpig84]

No point stacking maim against bosses either.

Most bosses are staged base, weak spot based or have damage caps.

 

So even Saryn will suffer the same thing or an AMD nova.

[Cyv001]

My main issue with Equinox is the lack of a passive on mend, and the short range on all abilities. The texturing issues on their main helm / arm cloths is a bother too, as well as the clipping issues. One of the recent hotfixes seems to of messed up Equinox's cloth physics too - or all cloth physics, rather.

[Pride]

im more concerned with losing my mend/maim when changing forms shouldnt those two transition over when you switch forms? also shouldnt pacify/provoke stay one when you switch forms? frankely the momentum loss from switching forms would take about 3 lines of code to fix.
Meta:buffs do not decay they simply end
rest/rage: 5m radius non-negotiable

pacify/provoke: when the ability is active switching between day/night will leave the ability active simply switching the active effect

mend/maim when the ability is active switching between day/night will leave the ability active simply switching the active effect all mend/maim will be transformed into the appropriate form to to match the current effect at the end of the meta transformation.

mend deals puncture proc to all enemies that enter the radius

Passive:
Day:gain 10 energy for each health orb you obtain
Night:gain 10 health for each energy orb you obtain.

[Misgenesis]

Guys stop, im having Equinox in 3 days now. I see her decimate enemies ingame but here its all 'shes bad' etc etc.

 

Make up your minds before i get her...

[Erl-King]

Guys stop, im having Equinox in 3 days now. I see her decimate enemies ingame but here its all 'shes bad' etc etc.

 

Make up your minds before i get her...

 

Its because she is one-trick-pony by being better version of Ember instead of hybrid, like DEvs introduced her as.

 

This thread is not about frame being bad in game, its about frame failing in its proclaimed niche. Most frames have its uses and field where they good.

 

Saryn good at nuking.

Trinity good at supporting.

Chroma good at tanking.

Frost good at static defending.

Excalibur good at being sword frame as flashy direct damage dealer.

Volt good at being speedster.

Zephyr good at being very mobile flying tank.

 

Equinox supposed to be good at comboing balanced offense and support sides, providing what best in a moment. Instead she is just:

- good at nuking (cheap power buff and great control+damage of Day Form),

- bad in support (contradicting and underwhelming Night Form powers)

- and epically fail in combining both (no synergy between Forms because restrictions - 2sec dead zone and canceling powers)

Edited August 15, 2015 by -MNT-Erlking

[Misgenesis]

 

Oh well, at least ill look fancy.

[Erl-King]

Oh well, at least ill look fancy.

Oh, I forgot to mentioned that her "good" form is one that look like S#&$ and one that "look fancy" is bad one.

[XxCurtennoxX]

Oh, I forgot to mentioned that her "good" form is one that look like S#&$ and one that "look fancy" is bad one.

I too prefer how Night Form looks. 

Shame day form is so much better :/

[painterman]

Its because she is one-trick-pony by being better version of Ember instead of hybrid, like DEvs introduced her as.

 

This thread is not about frame being bad in game, its about frame failing in its proclaimed niche. Most frames have its uses and field where they good.

 

Saryn good at nuking.

Trinity good at supporting.

Chroma good at tanking.

Frost good at static defending.

Excalibur good at being sword frame as flashy direct damage dealer.

Volt good at being speedster.

Zephyr good at being very mobile flying tank.

 

Equinox supposed to be good at comboing balanced offense and support sides, providing what best in a moment. Instead she is just:

- good at nuking (cheap power buff and great control+damage of Day Form),

- bad in support (contradicting and underwhelming Night Form powers)

- and epically fail in combining both (no synergy between Forms because restrictions - 2sec dead zone and canceling powers)

 

This is the main problen she has atm. Now with the efficiency afecting her 3 its a tini bit better at nigh form , but not enough to compare to day form. The decaying buffs are a good concept, but not the way they are implemented. This are my proposed changes:

 

1- Switching betwen forms shoudl be encouraged by leting the current buffs stay as long as you are in that form plus using a decaying sistem when you change. This way , in day form you have your extra movement speed and if you swich to night form you conserve that movement speed for a set duration while it decays. The duration on this should be at least 40 seconds.

 

2- A minor range increase( to 5-6 meters should be fine) and being able to target ground for something like using a explosive weap: you target the ground to maximice the range.

 

3- Wen you switch the ability isnt deactivated but its on pause while you are switching, on the night form you and your alies get the dmg reduction and its fixed(37 at max rank) instead of the enemys do less dmg the closer you are. To compensate the range is brought down to 8-12 meters.

 

4- Mend needs something to be on par with main and it get the same treatment as pacify/proque, its not deactivated and you store the dmg as long as your using it. On other hand the way its now it incites you to switch forms instead of deactivating it so you can evade the long cast time but with no incentives for switching forms why would you do that?. Mend proposed changes: enemy stager, enemy slow down(similar to mprime) decreased enemy acurrazy and agresion lv( they shoot wrong and with less frecuenzy, also they move like walking instead of runing)

Edited August 15, 2015 by painterman

[Hammahness808]

From the things that Dev's say, like that. It feels like they might be playtesting with unlimited energy.

[Enno69]

From the things that Dev's say, like that. It feels like they might be playtesting with unlimited energy.

Indeed... I've tested out her ult several times in defense, mostly with Maim, and even with max (normal) flow and a streamline, I always end up having to waste a de-cast because I run dry before having build up enough effect. Even having a Trinity on the squad it still wasn't enough... Maybe it is supposed to work when they are plenty of foes to kill, as in, high level runs... But then you'll get shredded since you can't do much (damage bonus from switching to day form decays, provoke doesn't affect you, and Rage is useless). So you have to sit back and wait for your mates to do all the killing so you can charge up. Doesn't look fun. More testing is required.

[XxCurtennoxX]

From the things that Dev's say, like that. It feels like they might be playtesting with unlimited energy.

How do you mean?

[Varzy]

In my opinion, Equinox would be really improved with:

1) Metamorphosis buffs don't decay, they just end. Switching forms does not cancel Mend/Maim.

2) Small range increase, and let us target the ground like Fireball/Freeze to splash the effect.

3) Pacify does not diminish with range, as the radius only covers close to mid range enemies. Pacify scales better with power strength. Provoke gives Equinox power strength too, and drains additional energy when using a skill.

4) Switching forms does not release Mend/Maim. The damage pool is reduced by 50% when you switch forms. Mend had a stun that inflicts a Puncture proc, so Night form gets CC too (this part is important, it's one of the bugger differences stopping Night from being effective, the fact that Mend doesn't stagger enemies).

[Varzy]

Oh, also, any enemy inside the range of Pacify (or, potentially, Mend) who is affected by Rest will not wake up until their health hits the damage threshold.

Rage and Maim have synergy already, since one does damage and the other makes enemies vulnerable to damage. Night form skills need a similar synergy.

[Tatersail]

have equinox keep running powers when she jump forms

[RiouHotaru]

The thing is that, like any frame, you have to either do a general build, or a power-specific build.  Rest is amazingly underrated.  For a #2 to have such a rather "hard" CC (With even a moderate level of Power Strength you're looking at 60-70% health loss BEFORE waking up, and putting enemies to sleep opens them up to steath damage multipliers) for such a cheap energy cost is amazing.  And Pacify, now that it's effected by Efficiency, is quite good as well.

 

Admittedly, Mend is a bit...odd?  Since it's a burst heal.  Oberon's Renewal was nice in that in was a HoT (Heal Over Time) but had travel time, whereas Mend is immediate.  Admittedly, Mend benefits tankier frames like Chroma more than caster frames because Mag or Nova will get breathed on and keel over, making Mend pointless since you can't effect people in bleed-out.

 

Which makes Maim to superior option given how disturbingly easy it is to build up a ridiculous damage number.  But Rage?  Rage is meh by comparison to Rest.

 

I'm waiting to see what sort of augments get released though.

[XxCurtennoxX]

The thing is that, like any frame, you have to either do a general build, or a power-specific build. Rest is amazingly underrated. For a #2 to have such a rather "hard" CC (With even a moderate level of Power Strength you're looking at 60-70% health loss BEFORE waking up, and putting enemies to sleep opens them up to steath damage multipliers) for such a cheap energy cost is amazing. And Pacify, now that it's effected by Efficiency, is quite good as well.

Admittedly, Mend is a bit...odd? Since it's a burst heal. Oberon's Renewal was nice in that in was a HoT (Heal Over Time) but had travel time, whereas Mend is immediate. Admittedly, Mend benefits tankier frames like Chroma more than caster frames because Mag or Nova will get breathed on and keel over, making Mend pointless since you can't effect people in bleed-out.

Which makes Maim to superior option given how disturbingly easy it is to build up a ridiculous damage number. But Rage? Rage is meh by comparison to Rest.

I'm waiting to see what sort of augments get released though.

inb4 bandaid augments instead of actual needed changes.

I struggle for space as it is, it's not likely that I'll be able to fit an augment anyway.

And I still don't find Pacify very great. The drop off with range is terrible and barely feels like it's doing anything. Not to mention having to fit Max range and high strength in order to actually make it usable.

Edited August 16, 2015 by XxCurtennoxX

[Judgebanks]

I like how Metamorphisis locks out your other abilities, good work whomever thought that was a good idea.

 

 

I honestly can't find a reason to play in Night form. If you really need a heal, drop a team heal restore, same effect.

[The-Matrix]

Rest is the only one night's good ability but seriously it doesnt seem that overextended increases the area of the spell which sucks considering the area is very small... It works only on the cast range obviously, then you need to spam it again and over again to cc few ennemies. There so many warframe a way  better at cc.

Come on DE you can do better than that !

[RHuckebein]

Rest is the only one night's good ability but seriously it doesnt seem that overextended increases the area of the spell which sucks considering the area is very small... It works only on the cast range obviously, then you need to spam it again and over again to cc few ennemies. There so many warframe a way  better at cc.

Come on DE you can do better than that !

 

Overextended definitely works on the AoE range, it's just that the base range is incredibly small.  It still hits a meaty 10m radius around your target with each cast, and it easily shuts down whole waves of enemies with how cheap it is to cast it the two or three times it takes.

[XxCurtennoxX]

Overextended definitely works on the AoE range, it's just that the base range is incredibly small.  It still hits a meaty 10m radius around your target with each cast, and it easily shuts down whole waves of enemies with how cheap it is to cast it the two or three times it takes.

Rest is decent with Max range, yeah. I still get around a 5 sec stun without any duration mods which isn't terrible I guess. Don't have the room to build for duration, strength, efficiency, and range -_-

[Mac2492]

No offence, but I don't think this is silly. The thing is, why would an efficient team use those powers when other frames do the exact same thing, but much better ? Sad fact is, currently, having a Nova and a Trinity in your squad offer a lot more utility than Equinox casting Rage and Mend. Even at the cost of an additional team slot, it's still worth it.

 

Which is why those powers should do something different than the ones they emulate. They should be something unique, so that they would be no competition. The same way, for instance, that Turbulence plays very differently from Snow Globe even though both can be described as protective barriers.

 

It's totally doable, really. Many players here have given interesting ideas on how she could be tweaked.

 

 

BTW yes she has two sets of abilties but as you know the main problem with her is precisely that you can't make good use of that "2 sets" mechanic, for reasons you and others already mentionned. So it's kind of a moot point right now.

 

It's not reasonable to make every skill have unique mechanics. Sometimes it's better to keep things simple and/or make similar skills. While you are correct that having a Nova and a Trinity in your squad invalidates Mend/Maim, that problem is really deeper than the balance of Equinox. An "efficient squad" in this game requires very specific comps that bar out most frames in the first place. People specifically want their Speed Nova, EV Trin, Disarm Loki, and so forth so they can last two hours in T4 survival. In most other cases, an Equinox is a perfectly fair substitute for both.

 

There is more to the game than destroying end-game content. It is not mandatory nor is it feasible for all weapons and frames to be viable for the highest tier of play. It's one thing to expect a frame or weapon to be reliable and another to expect it to match the best in their categories.

 

I'm sure we can all agree that Equinox needs tuning, but too many people are over-exaggerating and calling her useless just because her heal isn't instant or she can't outnuke a Saryn or howl like Rhino. There are missions where I NEED to switch to Saryn to survive or Trinity to EV and heal, but for everything else Equinox is a joy to use. If my team is doing well I can supplement our offensive power with Provoke and Maim while taking advantage of a decent speed and damage boost. If things go south then Night form provides solid defense and a heal.

 

Before comparing Equinox to other frames, take into account that she has access to two playstyles within the same mission. Switching between them is not fluid, but it is still viable and I do it all the time. It is not a moot point at all. Trinity is a billion times better as a support frame, but offensively an Equinox blows her out of the water with Maim nukes. Nova completely outclasses Equinox offensively, but she can't provide any sustain or damage reduction like Equinox. With Equinox I can defend, heal, attack, run point, go stealthy, and really dabble between different playstyles as needed. She definitely needs tuning, but this tuning should not make her skills nearly as powerful as a dedicated frame or you'd just reverse the problem.

[XxCurtennoxX]

It's not reasonable to make every skill have unique mechanics. Sometimes it's better to keep things simple and/or make similar skills. While you are correct that having a Nova and a Trinity in your squad invalidates Mend/Maim, that problem is really deeper than the balance of Equinox. An "efficient squad" in this game requires very specific comps that bar out most frames in the first place. People specifically want their Speed Nova, EV Trin, Disarm Loki, and so forth so they can last two hours in T4 survival. In most other cases, an Equinox is a perfectly fair substitute for both.

 

There is more to the game than destroying end-game content. It is not mandatory nor is it feasible for all weapons and frames to be viable for the highest tier of play. It's one thing to expect a frame or weapon to be reliable and another to expect it to match the best in their categories.

 

I'm sure we can all agree that Equinox needs tuning, but too many people are over-exaggerating and calling her useless just because her heal isn't instant or she can't outnuke a Saryn or howl like Rhino. There are missions where I NEED to switch to Saryn to survive or Trinity to EV and heal, but for everything else Equinox is a joy to use. If my team is doing well I can supplement our offensive power with Provoke and Maim while taking advantage of a decent speed and damage boost. If things go south then Night form provides solid defense and a heal.

 

Before comparing Equinox to other frames, take into account that she has access to two playstyles within the same mission. Switching between them is not fluid, but it is still viable and I do it all the time. It is not a moot point at all. Trinity is a billion times better as a support frame, but offensively an Equinox blows her out of the water with Maim nukes. Nova completely outclasses Equinox offensively, but she can't provide any sustain or damage reduction like Equinox. With Equinox I can defend, heal, attack, run point, go stealthy, and really dabble between different playstyles as needed. She definitely needs tuning, but this tuning should not make her skills nearly as powerful as a dedicated frame or you'd just reverse the problem.

Agreed.She needs some tweaking but in no way should enter the territory of dedication support/offence frames.

Personally i think she needs her ability synergy tweaked, and make Mend have an aura effect similar to Maim. Night form is really lacking compared to day form so that needs fixing, but not so much that she enters Trinity territory.

[Thyriell]

PREACH IT.

I made a post in the feedback topic for Equinox, but I feel like you covered all my points much better. She is a frame that is supposed to switch forms, yet there is so little incentive to do so, on top of it being punishing.

[Enno69]

Agreed.She needs some tweaking but in no way should enter the territory of dedication support/offence frames.

Personally i think she needs her ability synergy tweaked, and make Mend have an aura effect similar to Maim. Night form is really lacking compared to day form so that needs fixing, but not so much that she enters Trinity territory.

I totally understand yours and Mac2492's point of view. Indeed, having a frame that can do a bit of everything is fun, and with all the tweaks, Equinox would certainly be really enjoyable.

 

It's just, I can't see her becoming one of the beloved frames, she just doesn't suit the feel of the game that everyone is used to. Most of her powers take time to cast or have an effect, and that doesn't fit into the fast-paced flow of the high level gameplay, at least when running with a squad. Rest put aside, her set is just all too cumbersome. WF isn't a MMORPG, it's a coop shooter, and having to sit through 2-seconds delay to gain small offensive or defensive buffs that decay, before unleashing several powers with limited range, effectiveness (Provoke, really), or a charge up time isn't really in the spirit. It's somehow too tactical and prevent you from achieving that fluid rythm you have with most other suits, where guns and abilities go hand in hand and having the proper skills/reflexed/situational awareness can let you become "one" with your frame. Just my opinion.

 

It's totally fine, mind you. I'm not trying to bash her or the players that enjoy her, I'm just a bit disappointed because her concept is awesome and she deserved be in the top tier, but right now she is simply painful to play for me : too much effort, not enough in return. Hence the comparison with other frmes : they maybe more limited in scope than Equinox but they feel reactive, they can make a big difference in tense situations where timing and adapting fast are key.

 

That's it, sorry for exposing this perspective.

BTW I disagree with "An "efficient squad" in this game requires very specific comps that bar out most frames in the first place.". Most frames can have a place in such a team, depending on the situation and the mindset of the players. Except Oberon, Ember and perhaps Zephyr they all bring something that is worth in end game. Trinity will indeed be present most of the times but heavy hitters can be Rhino, Mirage, Saryn, Ash, Mesa... CC Nova, Banshee, RB Excalibur, Hydroid, Loki, Nyx.. Support Loki, Trin, Valkyr (for revives), Vauban (infested), Volt... I've seen many dominating combos including those.