Tigris And Duplex Trigger

[HolidayPi3]

To be honest, the Tigris fit me like a glove from the first time I used it. I just want to understand as many viewpoints as possible. For me it's less important to be "right" and more important to see as many sides as possible. If people say duplex-auto is uncomfortable, I'll take all my experiences with shotguns in video games, read through their complaints, then try to feel for myself the discomfort that they feel.

 

-snip-

 

 

This... it's shockingly enlightening despite being a seemingly small detail on a playstyle.  Before I drone on further I'll say thanks for answering.

 

I'm actually genuinely surprised yet at the same time things make a great deal more sense to me now on this issue, at least in a theoretical sense.  I'm the kind of player who very, very rarely finds myself using ADS for most anything unless I'm dawdling about in a low level mission.  When using a Charge weapon for instance I never* ADS during a charge.  However even if I can't see through the eyes of other players I can still see whether or not they're ADSing based on observing movement speeds.

 

-snip-

 

Just wanted to pop in and say that this analytical approach to things is awesome. Keep it up-- I genuinely feel that this is the best way to facilitate good communication & gather the most useful information. Kudos to you both. I'd venture to say that this makes feedback easier for DE to sort through as well.

 

That being said-- just like you, I'm still in my camp that an alt fire would be a welcome feature / option, but I do have a much better idea as to what the appeal of duplex-auto is. I do understand completely why you wouldn't want it outright replaced, however-- though I don't think I ever really advocate for outright removals preference-based functionalities (oh hey-- that's why I'm here in the first place, huh?)

Edited August 21, 2015 by HolidayPi3

[Mac2492]

Another tidbit as to how duplex-fire works...

 

Broadly speaking, there are main three button "events" that programs will look for:

press - triggered when a button is initially pressed

hold - triggered while a button is being held down, except on the initial press

release - triggered when a button is released

 

An automatic weapon will begin firing on press, continue firing on hold, and cease firing on release.

A semi-auto weapon will fire on press and do nothing on hold or on release.

A charging will begin charging on press, continue charging on hold, and fire on release.

A duplex-auto weapon will fire on press, do nothing on hold, and fire on release.

 

From a player's perspective, it's strange for a weapon to shoot twice on tap and delay shots on hold. Once you really break down the events like this I think it makes it clearer how duplex-auto works, and also why it's difficult to explain (see: butchered explanation on patch notes).

[auxy]

To be completly honest, i disagree massively on the tigris change. This had been a weapon i recently picked up to toy around with and really enjoyed the idea of a double barrel shotgun. Not a burst fire weapon, there's a reason most people dont touch the burst weapons in the game, they are quick to lose ammo and it's harder to control especially because it's a shotgun. Now when i use it, the first shot kills the target and the second shot just makes it so i just have to reload. Shame i put 6 formas into the thing just to not find it good anymore. Could we at least make it shoot once and have a delay to the second shot, then reload? Thanks for reading!

You sound like you don't understand the duplex-auto trigger. If you click and hold, you only fire once. Then tap reload if you don't need to fire again.

 

The second shot is fired when you release the trigger.

[RealPandemonium]

It has twice as much base damage to compensate for its lack of the syndicate mod. I will provide some example builds. Note that I consider Seeking Fury to be core to both weapons.

 

Hek:

 

http://goo.gl/mThMz6

 

 

Tigris:

 

http://goo.gl/mT4NNH

 

 

I consider these to be fairly standard builds, would you agree? If you compare the damage per shot, burst, and sustained values, they are very similar, but they are mostly in the Hek's favor. The Tigris does a little more damage per shell with sweeping serration vs a 90% elemental. The quality of life that the semi-auto gave to the Tigris allowed it to be in closer contention with the Hek, while still allowing the flavor of choice. Imo, the Hek is just the superior option now, which is a shame, because the style the Tigris has is pretty cool.

 

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is the Tigris & the Hek, was like the Soma Prime and the Boltor Prime. If they just gutted the Soma, everyone would just use the Boltor. Why do we need less choice? That's not to say the Tigris does poor damage, but its biggest downfall is usability, and as quickly as it was given, it was taken away.

http://goo.gl/dLuFrx is closer to what I would use for the Tigris, since the bonus Slash from Sweeping Serration would go to waste against later Grineer and Seeking Fury already gives an appreciable bonus to reload speed.

 

Regarding your comparison to those two guns, if it were up to me they would both have limiting factors of their own.  There's no real reason to have EZMode weapons in this game except as go-to options for players who are bad at games or who are only interested in rewards and not in actual gameplay.  Nonetheless, if they did something like halve the Boltor Prime's projectile speed or something like that I would be much more inclined to use it over its competitor because it would be much more interesting to use.  The community vocal forum minority would, of course, be in an uproar over the QoL nerf but the maxcase of the weapon would remain the mostly the same with a bonus to those who use it well.  

[HolidayPi3]

It has twice as much base damage to compensate for its lack of the syndicate mod. I will provide some example builds. Note that I consider Seeking Fury to be core to both weapons.

 

Hek:

 

http://goo.gl/mThMz6

 

 

-snip-

 

Sorry to butt in on yours and RealP's convo-- but I would suggest this Hek build at 103k burst and 41k sustained. Beats out the Tigris, and has enough fire rate that it won't have that awkward delay that screws up taking out multiple spaced out enemies.

 

http://goo.gl/K53OqD

 

It outdoes the Tigris in DPS... and I'm not sure how I feel about that. For a weapon that's easier to use in pretty much every way, I don't think it should outdo the Tigris in the only thing that the Tigris does well.

Edited August 21, 2015 by HolidayPi3

[RealPandemonium]

It outdoes the Tigris in DPS... and I'm not sure how I feel about that. For a weapon that's easier to use in pretty much every way, I don't think it should outdo the Tigris in the only thing that the Tigris does well.

Well, Tigris is all about the single-shot damage, but I agree that Scattered Justice makes the Hek ridiculous.  I wish DE had the time and inclination to revise damage numbers across the board so that we can get a fresh, planned-out table of options.  

[AzureTerra]

Alt fire made it enjoyable to use again and well now that has gone it back to the corner for it. Only reason it's not sold is the multiple Forma in it this time.

I leveled it the first time a few months ago and aside from the good looks there was nothing good about ~ terrible fire system and no damage. Now its got an appreciable damage and capability but lost the fire functionality which made it useable. Duplex is good for getting something large out of your face and that's about it.

[auxy]

Alt fire made it enjoyable to use again and well now that has gone it back to the corner for it. Only reason it's not sold is the multiple Forma in it this time.

I leveled it the first time a few months ago and aside from the good looks there was nothing good about ~ terrible fire system and no damage. Now its got an appreciable damage and capability but lost the fire functionality which made it useable. Duplex is good for getting something large out of your face and that's about it.

Check post #78.

[DrFail]

Get rid of it. We have a single shot now, so there's absolutely no more need for it. Primary=both barrels at once, Secondary=single barrel. It can already be done with a mousewheel.

 

 

This OP is really a good example of the main reason I don't want the change reimplimented. The existence of the alt fire completely negated the gun's gimmick to such an extent that multiple people in various threads had in a short span of time voted to A: Remove the guns gimmick entirely, or B: Swap the two fire modes so that the alt fire was more accessible than the gun’s actual fire. And they were not wrong in doing so, because there was very little reason to utilize the gun’s previously defining Duplex Trigger while the alt fire was around. You guys did not love the Tigris. You loved an entirely different weapon that there’s still room to make and release. But as a different weapon.

 

The issue here is that the single fire gun you guys came to love was in essence a completely different weapon with a completely different playstyle that was different and overrode the one many people who used the Tigris beforehand came to love. From the one *I* came to love. It used different mechanics. It had different pros and cons due to the fire rate quirks. Such a simple change was enough to take the Tigris and morph it into more or less a different weapon that used the same skin and had the same damage stats. That’s why you’ve got two divided sides here, it’s all based on which of the two weapons people enjoyed using more.

 

Some very brief and hasty examples of how the playstyles differed:

Old Tigris: Holding button to store second shot instinctively meant snappy choices. Because (ignoring roll exploits) you were having to perform a constant action to NOT shoot, a player instinctively looked for the next closest target to release on because you were very cognately holding your second bullet and very actively seeking a target for it. If there’s no target around, is it safe to reload? How long do you wait to reload?

 

Alt Tigris: Alt fire allows slower and more planned choices. There’s no holding down m1 to encourage a snappy choice, you can alt fire, take time to reposition yourself, and shoot your second alt fire. You don’t really feel the need to actively seek out a target as soon as possible, and can instead feel like you have time to save your shot to take down a more priority target

 

Old Tigris: Encouraged reloads. If you fire your first shot and don’t think that you’ll shoot the second shot within one and a half seconds, you should reload. Having a bigger mag is a boon for heavier targets, but isn’t one you’ll always use.

 

Alt Tigris: Less reload times and more firing times. Alt fire combined with modding for a bigger mag means you don’t spend as much time reloading. Having a bigger mag is now a massive plus because of how you now always shoot one shot with one press and can take more time to line up your shots better.

 

ect.

 

 

Neither side here is wrong. It's just that both sides are basically talking about different weapons.

 

In my opinion they could make a second double barrel shotgun based off the alt fire. Maybe said alt fire could even be the Tigris Prime’s gimmick, seeing how recent prime weapons go. But it was never really something that belonged on the Tigris itself. Both weapons deserve to exist.

[theammostore]

This OP is really a good example of the main reason I don't want the change reimplimented. The existence of the alt fire completely negated the gun's gimmick to such an extent that multiple people in various threads had in a short span of time voted to A: Remove the guns gimmick entirely, or B: Swap the two fire modes so that the alt fire was more accessible than the gun’s actual fire. And they were not wrong in doing so, because there was very little reason to utilize the gun’s previously defining Duplex Trigger while the alt fire was around. You guys did not love the Tigris. You loved an entirely different weapon that there’s still room to make and release. But as a different weapon.

 

The issue here is that the single fire gun you guys came to love was in essence a completely different weapon with a completely different playstyle that was different and overrode the one many people who used the Tigris beforehand came to love. From the one *I* came to love. It used different mechanics. It had different pros and cons due to the fire rate quirks. Such a simple change was enough to take the Tigris and morph it into more or less a different weapon that used the same skin and had the same damage stats. That’s why you’ve got two divided sides here, it’s all based on which of the two weapons people enjoyed using more.

 

Some very brief and hasty examples of how the playstyles differed:

Old Tigris: Holding button to store second shot instinctively meant snappy choices. Because (ignoring roll exploits) you were having to perform a constant action to NOT shoot, a player instinctively looked for the next closest target to release on because you were very cognately holding your second bullet and very actively seeking a target for it. If there’s no target around, is it safe to reload? How long do you wait to reload?

 

Alt Tigris: Alt fire allows slower and more planned choices. There’s no holding down m1 to encourage a snappy choice, you can alt fire, take time to reposition yourself, and shoot your second alt fire. You don’t really feel the need to actively seek out a target as soon as possible, and can instead feel like you have time to save your shot to take down a more priority target

 

Old Tigris: Encouraged reloads. If you fire your first shot and don’t think that you’ll shoot the second shot within one and a half seconds, you should reload. Having a bigger mag is a boon for heavier targets, but isn’t one you’ll always use.

 

Alt Tigris: Less reload times and more firing times. Alt fire combined with modding for a bigger mag means you don’t spend as much time reloading. Having a bigger mag is now a massive plus because of how you now always shoot one shot with one press and can take more time to line up your shots better.

 

ect.

 

 

Neither side here is wrong. It's just that both sides are basically talking about different weapons.

 

In my opinion they could make a second double barrel shotgun based off the alt fire. Maybe said alt fire could even be the Tigris Prime’s gimmick, seeing how recent prime weapons go. But it was never really something that belonged on the Tigris itself. Both weapons deserve to exist.

well said

[Boondorl]

Put me down as a huge duplex-trigger lover. I think it's awesome and I have always loved the Tigris. Easily my favorite primary ever since it came out. It reminds me of the old game Blood, my favorite FPS.

 

Except Blood's double barrel was semi automatic, with the ability to fire both barrels via the secondary fire. Not really doing the argument against semi-auto any favors here.

 

I'm not sure why every weapon hasn't gotten some sort of secondary fire at this point. It'd make them all more interesting to use, but I guess that's not what people here want. They'd much rather prefer gimmicks, even if they're not good ones.

 

Apparently having to hold the mouse button after firing makes a weapon more challenging to use. Congrats, I do that every single time I use a fully automatic weapon.

[HolidayPi3]

Literally just confirmed by Steve on the devstream-- Alt fire won't be coming back. He feels it's not part of the intended design and that it's strong without it.

[Divinehero]

the big difference between the 2 with having to hold the fire key is for auto weapons it's to keep firing.. with the tigris it's to keep you from firing why does this need to be so clunky... i can't even begin to understand the logic behind the ppl defending it.. it "adds character"? it makes it "more unique among the playerbase"? please.. get over urselves

Edited August 21, 2015 by Divinehero

[Boondorl]

Literally just confirmed by Steve on the devstream-- Alt fire won't be coming back. He feels it's not part of the intended design and that it's strong without it.

 

Of course it was a part of the intended design. It's not like duplex-auto was a bug. A majority of the stuff they do is intentional, including all the RNG Steve loves to throw into the game.

 

The SNES was also intended to have 16-bit graphics. Does that mean Nintendo would keep using 16-bit in the future? Hell no, the graphics we can achieve now are far better. Things like Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze are a good example of classic platformers done with modern graphics. And that's the real question: would they do it today now that a secondary fire function is available?

 

We won't know the true answer until another double barrel shotgun comes out. I'm going to place my bet on the fact that they won't bother with duplex-auto and go straight for the classic styled control scheme. If that ends up being true, it speaks of how the developers actually feel about the trigger type.

 

At this point, it seems like they're keeping it because of "muh nostalgia." I wouldn't be shocked if even Tigris Prime ditches duplex, and if it does, a lot of people will immediately jump on that. Vectis Prime has shown they're not afraid to make the prime version feel different. There's a reason the Tigris isn't used much; awkward clunkiness is not a positive to throw on your weapon.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Boondorl

[JuanDeages]

http://goo.gl/dLuFrx is closer to what I would use for the Tigris, since the bonus Slash from Sweeping Serration would go to waste against later Grineer and Seeking Fury already gives an appreciable bonus to reload speed.

 

Regarding your comparison to those two guns, if it were up to me they would both have limiting factors of their own.  There's no real reason to have EZMode weapons in this game except as go-to options for players who are bad at games or who are only interested in rewards and not in actual gameplay.  Nonetheless, if they did something like halve the Boltor Prime's projectile speed or something like that I would be much more inclined to use it over its competitor because it would be much more interesting to use.  The community vocal forum minority would, of course, be in an uproar over the QoL nerf but the maxcase of the weapon would remain the mostly the same with a bonus to those who use it well.

My build is assuming X4 corrosive projection. I would use Corrosive/Heat or Radiation/Viral against corrupted and grineer respectively.

Why Gas/Cold? I'm going to assume that was meant to be viral/heat.

As far as weapon choice for bad players/good players, I don't feel like making a gun intentionally clunky is a way to create meaningful balance, nor does using a clunky gun make you a better player. Good players push to the edge of what is possible, regardless of what the limiting factor is. Perhaps it is other players, or in the case of PvE, enemy scaling and wave comps. In the case of shooters in general, better aim is always going to help you. Not all players running Boltor Primes are equal. No matter how good, how hard, or how easy a gun is to use, it takes player input. Not counting peacemakers lol.

Also, half speed Boltor Prime bolts? You must hate yourself. That sounds awful, and would massively skew the balance of power to the Soma Prime. We need more top tier Assault Rifles, not less. We are sitting on too many mid tier automatics in this game as is.

[ThePredicament]

This may be a good thing though, there's enough community outcry about alt fire and this opens up for another double barreled shotgun, one that's more traditional. A sawed off Tigris, same power, bigger spread, secondary.

 

Just like Grakata's daka daka on primary/secondary, everyone can have a Tigris boom boom on both slots too.

[RealPandemonium]

My build is assuming X4 corrosive projection. I would use Corrosive/Heat or Radiation/Viral against corrupted and grineer respectively.

Why Gas/Cold? I'm going to assume that was meant to be viral/heat.

As far as weapon choice for bad players/good players, I don't feel like making a gun intentionally clunky is a way to create meaningful balance, nor does using a clunky gun make you a better player. Good players push to the edge of what is possible, regardless of what the limiting factor is. Perhaps it is other players, or in the case of PvE, enemy scaling and wave comps. In the case of shooters in general, better aim is always going to help you. Not all players running Boltor Primes are equal. No matter how good, how hard, or how easy a gun is to use, it takes player input. Not counting peacemakers lol.

Also, half speed Boltor Prime bolts? You must hate yourself. That sounds awful, and would massively skew the balance of power to the Soma Prime. We need more top tier Assault Rifles, not less. We are sitting on too many mid tier automatics in this game as is.

I just put random elementals in the build as it was the raw damage value I was adjusting; not a particular build.  I was assuming a more casual setting where your team isn't super-coordinated.  Nonetheless Tigris can still one-shot almost anything regularly encountered in the game, which I guess is what DE was going for when they quadrupled its damage.  The fact that the Hek can also do this points to the lunacy of Scattered Justice.

 

As for the half-speed Boltor Prime, I think that weapons at its power level should have significant drawbacks.  We really don't need more top-tier weapons because the mid-tier and even low-tier weapons also perform adequately or more even on level 80 enemies when modded correctly and even better when team synergy comes into the equation.  

 

Point and click guns shouldn't be as powerful as guns that require you to plan around them.  A tricky-to-use gun that can potentially put out huge damage is much more satisfying to use than a direct numerical upgrade (on massive, game-breaking steroids) from a starter weapon.  That's why I mentioned different tiers of players; weak [or lazy] players can rely on the OP stuff when they can't deal with content otherwise while advanced players can enjoy a variety of different equipment options and the resulting play-styles while being just as effective.  If it were up to me personally I would remove all kinds of training wheels from our equipment options but that would reduce the game's audience significantly.  You say that good players always push the limits of what's possible; isn't the act and effort of pushing those limits what creates meaningful gameplay and replayability for those players?

 

This may be a good thing though, there's enough community outcry about alt fire and this opens up for another double barreled shotgun, one that's more traditional. A sawed off Tigris, same power, bigger spread, secondary.

 

Just like Grakata's daka daka on primary/secondary, everyone can have a Tigris boom boom on both slots too.

More feedback need to be like this.  In a game with this many options (and that's the whole point) there's no harm in asking for a few more that do what you want instead of changing what already works for someone else.  Too many rework threads based on broken expectations and not enough legitimate feature requests.  

[JuanDeages]

I just put random elementals in the build as it was the raw damage value I was adjusting; not a particular build.  I was assuming a more casual setting where your team isn't super-coordinated.  Nonetheless Tigris can still one-shot almost anything regularly encountered in the game, which I guess is what DE was going for when they quadrupled its damage.  The fact that the Hek can also do this points to the lunacy of Scattered Justice.

 

As for the half-speed Boltor Prime, I think that weapons at its power level should have significant drawbacks.  We really don't need more top-tier weapons because the mid-tier and even low-tier weapons also perform adequately or more even on level 80 enemies when modded correctly and even better when team synergy comes into the equation.  

 

Point and click guns shouldn't be as powerful as guns that require you to plan around them.  A tricky-to-use gun that can potentially put out huge damage is much more satisfying to use than a direct numerical upgrade (on massive, game-breaking steroids) from a starter weapon.  That's why I mentioned different tiers of players; weak [or lazy] players can rely on the OP stuff when they can't deal with content otherwise while advanced players can enjoy a variety of different equipment options and the resulting play-styles while being just as effective.  If it were up to me personally I would remove all kinds of training wheels from our equipment options but that would reduce the game's audience significantly.  You say that good players always push the limits of what's possible; isn't the act and effort of pushing those limits what creates meaningful gameplay and replayability for those players?

 

More feedback need to be like this.  In a game with this many options (and that's the whole point) there's no harm in asking for a few more that do what you want instead of changing what already works for someone else.  Too many rework threads based on broken expectations and not enough legitimate feature requests.  

 

I think someone at DE just really wants the Hek to be good. Not that I mind, it is really fun to shoot, but it has been indirectly buffed with 3 different mods before it was directly buffed. I was pretty happy with it once seeking fury came out, tbh. I felt like it was in a good place. That's for another thread though.

 

Well, I know the Tigris can one shot things for a LONG time. That is not the issue. My take on the secondary fire, well what WAS the secondary fire, is that it offers a choice that is not forced on you, like the Vectis Prime fiasco. I'm sure most Vectis users just gave up on that one. Having the secondary fire just smooths things out for the early mid game of endless missions, as it does insane overkill damage for a while, making one shot more than enough to kill an enemy, or group of enemies.

 

Imo we need more top tier weapons, not to bulldoze content with more godly gear, but to provide more choices going into the very late game in both team and solo settings. Non-endless difficulty in general is pretty trivial, but DE has some ideas in the works to help with difficulty in general. The curve goes from too easy to impossible, with little in between. The point is, I would like the Tigris to be in strong contention with the Hek to give late game options to players that just want some additional flavor in their hour+ runs.

 

As far as tiers of players, let me provide an example. I used to be a huge Mag player. It was basically a more arcade-like version of battlefield, with a much larger number of players on the map, with a skill tree. Anyway, throughout much of the game's life, especially near the end, the tier 2 assault rifle was the king of weapons in the game. Most of the best players had one as a staple in most, if not all, of their loadouts. Why? It was not very difficult to use, and in fact, that is part of why it was used so often. It had decent damage, was exceptionally accurate, had nearly no recoil, and came with a decent ammo pool. To be fair, accuracy was incredibly important (it also had very effective silencers), even more so than most shooters I've played, but the weapon was not hard to use on any faction. The difficulty of the game came from the players you fought against, and trying to get such a large team on the same page as you. Using a weapon that you KNOW to be worse that what is optimal is creating artificial difficulty. At some point, if the quality of life for a powerful weapon is so poor, no amount of payoff can make it worth using another top tier weapon that is easier to use. I could use a battle rifle with a x4 sight, and maybe kill some people, but why fight with one arm tied behind my back?

 

The guns should not impose difficulty on the player, the enemies you face should.

Edited August 22, 2015 by JuanDeages

[AzureTerra]

Check post #78.

 

And?

 

Your a special sunflower for liking a clunky mechanic, well done.

Edited August 22, 2015 by AzureTerra