Why I've Lost Trust In De

[Omnimorph]

 

I don't want to hear your "itz steel gud" excuses. That's not the point. The point is that it's not what I chose to buy.

 

What you chose to buy into is a beta, so it's perpetually subject to changes that may be drastic until it ceases to be officially beta. 

 

IOW if you buy a thing in this game, you must surely be aware that the thing might change.  I agree that it can be painful, but you bought into it knowing it might be painful.

 

Even games that are officially "done" (especially multiplayer games) sometimes have drastic changes (although one would expect them to be less frequent and less drastic than a game in beta).

 

As to "listening to the community", you can't expect the game to be designed by the "community", it's designed by DE, they do the coding, not the "community".  It's DE's risk if the community dislikes what they do so much they opt out.

 

The upshot is usually that while "community feedback" is useful and important, it can't possibly be what designs the game.  It would be an absolute disaster if it was, because maybe 8/10 people don't know either a) what they really want, b) what would be good for them as players, or c) what it's possible to implement.

 

DE have far more data than any of the players do, about what people are using, how it's being used, etc.  I'd rather trust their analytical grasp of the data than anecdotal stuff from players.  Mostly (sometimes players can genuinely advance things, but it's pretty rare in my experience - and when it happens, it's usually from players who have put in some time and effort to crunch numbers, not random yahoos moaning about this or that).

[Tyrian3k]

Again, if they are not the same guys it's to be expected. If you want to make it an "us vs them" thing we do get a lot more content for pve than for pvp. I guess they have different priorities.

 

I'm not saying everything is perfect: I want more pve balance too, but comparing the work of people making guns, frames, maps and more to a team dedicated (mostly) to balance isn't really fair.

 

As you say, those guys are a team dedicated to balancing PvP. What I'm asking is why there is nothing like that for PvE? Why does it have to be the ones who create weapons, frames, etc. who balance PvE as well if they have so little time to do so?

 

Creating new content will be a thing for as long as this game exists, but as long as they create new content, they have little time to balance things, causing the balance mess to get worse and worse as time goes on.

[Liminal]

Creating new content will be a thing for as long as this game exists, but as long as they create new content, they have little time to balance things, causing the balance mess to get worse and worse as time goes on.

Indeed, but I was actually responding to someone saying pvp balance seemed to be a priority, when that's not exactly the case.

[Marthrym]

What you chose to buy into is a beta, so it's perpetually subject to changes that may be drastic until it ceases to be officially beta. 

 

IOW if you buy a thing in this game, you must surely be aware that the thing might change.  I agree that it can be painful, but you bought into it knowing it might be painful.

 

Even games that are officially "done" (especially multiplayer games) sometimes have drastic changes (although one would expect them to be less frequent and less drastic than a game in beta).

 

As to "listening to the community", you can't expect the game to be designed by the "community", it's designed by DE, they do the coding, not the "community".  It's DE's risk if the community dislikes what they do so much they opt out.

 

The upshot is usually that while "community feedback" is useful and important, it can't possibly be what designs the game.  It would be an absolute disaster if it was, because maybe 8/10 people don't know either a) what they really want, b) what would be good for them as players, or c) what it's possible to implement.

 

DE have far more data than any of the players do, about what people are using, how it's being used, etc.  I'd rather trust their analytical grasp of the data than anecdotal stuff from players.  Mostly (sometimes players can genuinely advance things, but it's pretty rare in my experience - and when it happens, it's usually from players who have put in some time and effort to crunch numbers, not random yahoos moaning about this or that).

Isn't that a bit of a cheap "out of jail" card though? "Hey it's a beta! We can f!ck it up as much as want!" is not the best defense against critics, justified or not. And obviously I don't mean that Warframe's devs want to actually f!ck up their game, not at all. I'm pretty sure they're doing their damnedest to make it work. People are always much more vocal about what they don't like than what they do like after all. There are really great things in Warframe. But there's no point in making thread after thread to say "This part is awesome!" every day and flood the forums even more, is there?^^'

 

Warframe is a F2P. Without this constant "development" process/new shinies to buy, it probably couldn't sustain itself for long. Saying that's it's still beta simply because the devs still work on new content doesn't really work anymore. All the stuff we get with updates is just some form of DLC. Sure, it's free, with an "opton to buy" some of the content instead of obtaining it by playing/grinding, and with some buy-only cosmetics on the side, but it's nothing more than "non optional" DLC. DE cannot hide behind this "beta shield" any longer. And how could they? After 2 and half years of this little dance, it just doesn't make sense.

 

The cases where the developers end up making a huge change to their game, they do it for a very simple reason : community outcry. Not because the developers thought "oops, we made a boo boo here", no. For example the "Radiance" system in Lord of the Rings Online. That thing could have killed it if the devs didn't chop off that gangrenous limb. Kinda like Destiny and that "Light" rating thing, they're dumping it too I read somewhere, and mostly because of the backlash it caused, how pissed off the players are, not because Bungie/Activision thought they had gone crosseyed there. Fortunately, these are extremely rare occurences. But they find their "spark" within the communities voicing their "discontentment", though I agree maybe too aggressively for some parts.

 

I also agree that feedback is always to take with a big pinch of salt, that this is DE's baby, not ours, etc. And it's true that many players don't know what they want. But it is also true that many players know what they don't want.

Sure it doesn't help with the whole "productive" feedback part, it doesn't help the devs create something that will satisfy their "angry ranting" players/customers, but it's still better than nothing IMHO. And at least the 2/10 players who may know better alternatives can make "reasonable" propositions and, with some luck, get the support of the other 8/10 players and the attention of the developers. I know it's far from optimal, but hey, it might just work. It has before.

 

Now I don't mean that we should go full retard on DE, no. But if no one voices their discontentment, how can the devs know what's wrong? Most of the time, being the ones who implemented that problem in the first place, it's difficult for them to see it. Because to them, it's not a problem. That's why you need at least a few "random yahoos" here and there. To make noise, attract the devs and those in the community who can be constructive and help them, even if it means making a mess in the process.

 

At least that's how I see it. I don't like it either, it sucks, but everyone can't be angry for no good reason, right? No smoke without fire, all that jazz.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Marthrym

[vaugahn]

"Hey it's a beta! We can f!ck it up as much as want!" 

 

While that isn't entirely (it can be, depending on the situation) a valid excuse, I don't think I've ever actually heard them use it. Typically when they mess up they just apologize and move on. They don't even do the usual community blame breakdown many developers are so fond of. The only time you ever hear anything like that is from players.

[ProfessorZero]

Treat this like an MMO, large scale changes to gameplay or expected in a MMO

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

-snip-

I just said that I don't care bout your excuses.

[Marthrym]

While that isn't entirely (it can be, depending on the situation) a valid excuse, I don't think I've ever actually heard them use it. Typically when they mess up they just apologize and move on. They don't even do the usual community blame breakdown many developers are so fond of. The only time you ever hear anything like that is from players.

Oh no no no, I didn't mean DE is using it as an excuse, I meant some players are using it as an excuse to defend DE in these situations, which is quite ironic, because the devs themselves really don't, at least not that I remember (to the devs' credit, I clearly remember DESteve stating outright that mistakes were made recently in a stream). I phrased it terribly, though, apologies.^^'

Edited August 28, 2015 by Marthrym

[Empiren]

Oh no no no, I didn't mean DE is using it as an excuse, I meant some players are using it as an excuse to defend DE in these situations, which is quite ironic, because the devs themselves really don't, at least not that I remember (to the devs' credit, I clearly remember DESteve stating outright that mistakes were made recently in a stream). I phrased it terribly, though, apologies.^^'

I believe Total Biscuit is the one who is fond of saying this: If your game has a cash shop, it's open to criticism.

 

Warframe is not really in beta.

 

 

You cannot be launching DLC-like content, having a 2+ year old cash shop, and being available on 3 system and call yourself a "beta".

 

There is no difference between  Warframe compared to: Smite, Diablo 3. or League of Legends with regards to content production.

 

 

DE just doesn't want to "finally release" because they know they can't make such huge errors.

 

 

Where is your proof of FoTM content?  Give me a list of items and stat changes.

 

No generalizations, no 'look for yourself' bs.  Pony up the proof.  I'd really like to see this for myself.

>Shotguns right now.

Buffed by 3-5x depending, will be nerfed within a month or two. 

 

 

Off the top of my head from the past with up+down, ogris/acrid, flux, synoid gammacor, Hek, synapse, Embolist/ignis.

 

With content: Soma, boltor prime, tonkor, penta.

 

I know you want "stats" but honestly that's just an unrealistic request.

 

I hardly have the time to dig through the patch notes for each one and the wiki doesn't keep those records.

 

Feel free to dismiss me through something that you know is basically impossible or unpractical to look up for your special need, but I can only live in reality here.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Empiren

[MagPrime]

I believe Total Biscuit is the one who is fond of saying this: If your game has a cash shop, it's open to criticism.

 

Warframe is not really in beta.

 

 

You cannot be launching DLC-like content, having a 2+ year old cash shop, and being available on 3 system and call yourself a "beta".

 

There is no difference between  Warframe compared to: Smite, Diablo 3. or League of Legends with regards to content production.

 

 

DE just doesn't want to "finally release" because they know they can't make such huge errors.

 

 

>Shotguns right now.

Buffed by 3-5x depending, will be nerfed within a month or two. 

 

 

Off the top of my head from the past with up+down, ogris/acrid, flux, synoid gammacor, Hek, synapse, Embolist/ignis.

 

With content: Soma, boltor prime, tonkor, penta.

 

I know you want "stats" but honestly that's just an unrealistic request.

 

I hardly have the time to dig through the patch notes for each one and the wiki doesn't keep those records.

 

Feel free to dismiss me through something that you know is basically impossible or unpractical to look up for your special need, but I can only live in reality here.

Sorry, the only thing you've proven is your ability to generalize and not be able to support your argument.

[TheBrsrkr]

I believe Total Biscuit is the one who is fond of saying If your game has a cash shop, it's open to criticism.

Warframe is not really in beta.

You cannot be launching DLC-like content, having a 2+ year old cash shop, and being available on 3 system and call yourself a "beta".

There is no difference between Warframe compared to: Smite, Diablo 3. or League of Legends with regards to content production.

DE just doesn't want to "finally release" because they know they can't make such huge errors.

>Shotguns right now.

Buffed by 3-5x depending, will be nerfed within a month or two.

Off the top of my head from the past with up+down, ogris/acrid, flux, synoid gammacor, Hek, synapse, Embolist/ignis.

With content: Soma, boltor prime, tonkor, penta.

I know you want "stats" but honestly that's just an unrealistic request.

I hardly have the time to dig through the patch notes for each one and the wiki doesn't keep those records.

Feel free to dismiss me through something that you know is basically impossible or unpractical to look up for your special need, but I can only live in reality here.

I'll give you the Slammacor and Ignis, maybe, but the rest of those are perfectly functional weapons. Asking for stats to back up your claims is a perfectly reasonable request in reality, I don't see why it should be different anywhere else. Ignis and Acrid were victims of Damage 2.0, and that wasn't any kind of FotM nerf. The Hek has never sucked. I don't remember a Flux Rifle nerf. Never tried the Synapse or Embolist, so I can't say anything on that, but I'm sure a quick check of the wiki could tell me everything I need to know. I don't see how the Penta is FotM when it's been around for years. Same with the Boltor Prime. The Soma is pretty much okay where it is right now. The Tonkor....maybe.

[Empiren]

Sorry, the only thing you've proven is your ability to generalize and not be able to support your argument.

It's almost like you made an unreasonable request just to write off a short dismissal due to your own laziness.

 

Naaaaaaaah.

[MagPrime]

It's almost like you made an unreasonable request just to write off a short dismissal due to your own laziness.

 

Naaaaaaaah.

It's almost like you made wild and unsupported claims and now expect others to support them for you.

[Empiren]

I'll give you the Slammacor and Ignis, maybe, but the rest of those are perfectly functional weapons. Asking for stats to back up your claims is a perfectly reasonable request in reality, I don't see why it should be different anywhere else. Ignis and Acrid were victims of Damage 2.0, and that wasn't any kind of FotM nerf. The Hek has never sucked. I don't remember a Flux Rifle nerf. Never tried the Synapse or Embolist, so I can't say anything on that, but I'm sure a quick check of the wiki could tell me everything I need to know. I don't see how the Penta is FotM when it's been around for years. Same with the Boltor Prime. The Soma is pretty much okay where it is right now. The Tonkor....maybe.

Ok you seem to not be understanding what Flavor of the Month is.

 

The thing is that you make a few weapons that are just head and shoulders above the rest.

 

Then you nerf them. Make another set head and shoulders above the rest.

-------------------------

Yes, you can still use these weapons when they are nerfed,  that's not the point. The point is the constantly rotating of weapons.

 

 

This is the same when an mmorpg buffs a class then everyone jumps on the "X-Class train"

 

 

There. Hopefully that helped.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Empiren

[Empiren]

It's almost like you made wild and unsupported claims and now expect others to support them for you.

Oh yes, FoTM is such a "wild" claim coming from the game that has 500% buffs lol.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Empiren

[(PSN)Quo_Tee]

I don't want to keep players from having PvP, even if I don't care about it myself, but when I see how much effort they put into balancing that compared to PvE, it's really frustrating me.

Fact of the matter is that we see tons of balancing for PvP and almost none for PvE.

Shotguns being reworked is nice, yes, but it took them how long? Half a year? More? I don't even remember how long it's been. Technically a buff was needed since Damage 2.0 was introduced in U11 19 months ago.

Balancing in PvE happens so painfully slowly that it makes me wonder if there really is no one but Scott himself working on it.

And don't even try saying that the balancing changes in PvE are better and had more thought. Just look at how they went with the Rakta Ballistica. First do some minor tweaks and then they suddenly go nuts and triple the damage without even making it OP in the process.

The shotgun buff is also part of that. Suddenly we have quintupled damage on the Tigris and about tripled damage on the Hek.

Or when the Kohm was released in a completely broken state where the numbers alone obviously told everyone that it's completely useless in that state. A shotgun that doesn't deal any more damage per shot than other shotguns while consuming ten times the ammo while having horrible accuracy. Sure, put that out. Seems good enough to me.

Not all changes are bad, mind you, and as negative as all this rambling is, I still like DE and Warframe.

Those things just very often cause

kind of reaction in me.

TBH, even on PS4 conclave is practically dead (except when Drew plays it during PS4@4), I think if conclave just had some unique mods that work in both PVP and PVE, unique weapons with their own "syndicate radial effect" and cosmetic items exclusive to Teshin's inventory and non of these things are tradeable, that would make a lot more people play conclave.

But still it Baffles me that DE have only recently buffed the Supra and Shotguns when it takes them only a hotfix to change weapon stats in conclave, which barely anyone even plays.

Edited August 28, 2015 by (PS4)TheRainbowTurt1e

[Empiren]

But still it Baffles me that DE have only recently buffed the Supra and Shotguns when it takes them only a hotfix to change weapon stats in conclave, which barely anyone even plays.

DE is really not the best with priorities and they have a really bad tendency to hold onto bad concepts or concepts that are continually not implemented well.

(*cough* paracyst / harpak *cough*.)

 

 

Where in PVE a simple damage fix would actually make a LOT  of weapons useable, PVP and Archwing require practically an entire update.

So really the priority should be in PVE for stat changes and putting some functional changes for PVP.

[TheBrsrkr]

Ok you seem to not be understanding what Flavor of the Month is.

The thing is that you make a few weapons that are just head and shoulders above the rest.

Then you nerf them. Make another set head and shoulders above the rest.

-------------------------

Yes, you can still use these weapons when they are nerfed, that's not the point. The point is the constantly rotating of weapons.

This is the same when an mmorpg buffs a class then everyone jumps on the "X-Class train"

There. Hopefully that helped.

So somehow devs aren't supposed to make mistakes or want their game to be balanced. Yeah, sure, I'll buy that.

Problem with that is that the content was always there. The players simply moved on to the next when the first one was changed. They didn't nerf the Embolist then buff the Penta, it was always there. Partly DE's fault for making it exploitable in the first place, partly the players fault for abusing it.

Also, if this were true, Boltor P and Mesa would have been nerfed by now.

[TheBrsrkr]

DE is really not the best with priorities and they have a really bad tendency to hold onto bad concepts or concepts that are continually not implemented well.

(*cough* paracyst / harpak *cough*.)

Where in PVE a simple damage fix would actually make a LOT of weapons useable, PVP and Archwing require practically an entire update.

So really the priority should be in PVE for stat changes and putting some functional changes for PVP.

Or......or...or....bear with me on this........

PvP is much easier to change?

PvP has no damage mods, no duration mods, no range mods. PvP barely has any mods at all. There are a lot more things to consider in the PvE version of a weapon than the PvP because of this. Hence, less work. Hence, faster and way more changes.

Edited August 28, 2015 by TheBrsrkr

[Empiren]

Problem with that is that the content was always there. The players simply moved on to the next when the first one was changed. 

That's what flavor of the month is. CMON!!!

 

 

 

 Partly DE's fault for making it exploitable in the first place, partly the players fault for abusing it.

If the action was not griefing/gliching then blaming the players for playing the game as it was clearly designed, is ridiculous.

.

 

Also, if this were true, Boltor P and Mesa would have been nerfed by now.

Wellp, hydroid and Gmag were.

 

I doubt Mesa is too far behind because DE is deciding to nerf the frame instead of fixing the content which is being exploited.

 

Irrelevant to FoTM outside of the "farming meta" though.

[Empiren]

Or......or...or....bear with me on this........

PvP is much easier to change?

PvP has no damage mods, no duration mods, no range mods. PvP barely has any mods at all. There are a lot more things to consider in the PvE version of a weapon than the PvP because of this. Hence, less work. Hence, faster and way more changes.

 

So how is changing just the damage which i just stated not the same?

Seems you didn't read my post my friend.

[TheBrsrkr]

So how is changing just the damage which i just stated not the same?

Seems you didn't read my post my friend.

Just the damage OF WHAT? ALL aspects of a weapon must be taken into account to change ANYTHING. Would nerfing the base damage of theSoma Prime to 9 make it any less stupid? Yes! But is that the correct form of changing it? Obviously not. Seems you should be more specific and not generalize every weapon.

[TheBrsrkr]

That's what flavor of the month is. CMON!!!

If the action was not griefing/gliching then blaming the players for playing the game as it was clearly designed, is ridiculous.

.

Wellp, hydroid and Gmag were.

I doubt Mesa is too far behind because DE is deciding to nerf the frame instead of fixing the content which is being exploited.

Irrelevant to FoTM outside of the "farming meta" though.

YOU said that DE constantly raises content to be better than everything else and nerfs it down. That's not the same thing.

So it's DE's fault that players jumped on a box with 540 Pentagon ammo and fought infested forever? Is it their fault that players took a very useful skill and found the quickest way to abuse the hell out of it? Whose fault is it that the only way to stop players from cheezing with all their hearts is to put in strict anti-cheeze methods that no one likes? I can buy that.

Gmag FORCED everyone to play around her, and Hydroid FORCED everyone to stand there doing nothing while only he gets to kill. FotM seems a lot like FIXING THE GAME.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

So it's DE's fault that players jumped on a box with 540 Pentagon ammo and fought infested forever? Is it their fault that players took a very useful skill and found the quickest way to abuse the hell out of it?

Yes, actually.

[Liminal]

So it's DE's fault that players jumped on a box with 540 Pentagon ammo and fought infested forever? Is it their fault that players took a very useful skill and found the quickest way to abuse the hell out of it? Whose fault is it that the only way to stop players from cheezing with all their hearts is to put in strict anti-cheeze methods that no one likes? I can buy that.

"Blame the game, not the player."

They made those things. As a business they only have themselves to blame.