Why I've Lost Trust In De

[Kalenath]

I know what it is and have done it (not competitively). And no, it is nothing like the bunny hopping we have now. You don't kick off a wall and suddenly get pulled back to it like a magnet. It's a violation of physics.  Running up a wall, on the other hand, is completely possible so long as you have enough force pushing you towards the wall. So the old system was more parkour-like.

 

And again, you spend more time bullet jumping, woo falling, and air rolling than you do actually wall hopping. I am thankful for since the hopping is so terrible, but it is not parkour.

 

Okay, if you actually DO practice it, then I will take your opinion as valid. As far as I can on the internet anyway.

 

But not everyone will share it.

 

For myself? The wall running is a bit off still for me. The fact that you can alter direction in mid-run is nice. I sort of see going up as a 'grab wall, thrust upwards' type of action. Kind of like climbers do with ice axes on REALLY high mountains sometimes but far, far faster. They get a solid grip, then propel themselves up. Admittedly, I have only seen THAT on TV and in movies, so I have NO idea how realistic THAT is. But I have seen people scamper up walls -and not just purpose built climbing walls- like Spiderman throwing themselves from hold to hold. Seeing them on actual climbing walls is UNREAL. They move almost as fast as a Tenno moves in game. (Maybe not a Loki tho... :) )

 

I DO miss the freight train feel of the old wall run. The 'Get in my way and get hurt as you fall a long ways' feeling.

 

The 'hopping onto and off of enemies and into groups of them to make a mess' never gets old.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Kalenath

[NN13]

All that "feedback".......wasn't. You saw WHY the changes were needed. P Swarm only allowed Hydroid to actually kill if you wanted loot. EB working with syndicate mods mean that they were the best choice, killing diversity. G pull was forcing every player to center around Mag. When it came time for change, there was outcry, yes. But what did you say, Don't do it because it's balanced? Don't do it because it's actually not a problem? Don't do it because it doesn't break the game? No.It's don't do it because I'm not as EFFICIENT. Don't do it because I don't like nerfs. Don't do it because it doesn't affect me negatively, and those who are negatively affected are whiners. These are not good enough reasons.

A bit late to the party, but I would like to ask you a few things about the following point you raised -

 

'But what did you say, Don't do it because it's balanced? Don't do it because it's actually not a problem? Don't do it because it doesn't break the game? No.It's don't do it because I'm not as EFFICIENT. Don't do it because I don't like nerfs. Don't do it because it doesn't affect me negatively, and those who are negatively affected are whiners. These are not good enough reasons.'

 

So, according to you previous Pilfering Swarm or EB+augment was not balanced? If so, are they balanced now?

 

So, according to you these things were a problem? Thats weird, considering the fact that not a single person complained about Pilfering Swarm or the augment effect on EB for that matter. The only complain people had about EB was the enormous damage output it can attain and that is still the case.

 

So, according to you, 'others' gaining more tellurium' was game breaking? Or, people able to heal back their frame was game breaking? Also, if 'Excal killing everything' was game breaking to you, let me tell you that its as game breaking as before(though I do not consider it game breaking).

 

So, according to you, being EFFICIENT is bad and should be changed, even if it is not at all detrimental to others' playing the game or atleast when it is done by every other frame?

 

So, according to you, each one of us said not to change these things because each and every one of us hate nerfs? That's quite an assumption, in fact, so bold of an assumption that its insulting to many.

 

So, Pilfering Hydroid and EB+augment healing was affecting you negatively? How, sir?

 

P.S.- From my past encounters with you, I haven't got a straight forward answer to the questions I asked you. So, this time, if you do not have a straight forward answer, I would request you to not waste your time replying to this post.

 

As for DE and Hydroid change, this was a very quick knee-jerk reaction to Ophelia. But the thing is, instead of changing the augment, maybe they should have just tried to disperse the spawn in the entire map, so camp-farm could be eliminated.

The problem with such knee-jerk changes is that they are not permanent. People will eventually find another way, maybe a bit less efficient one. But if the main problem was addressed, this would never have been a problem in the future.

We have had so many frames' abilities changed/tweaked/nerfed to stop camp-farm. But did it stop? No. Then, maybe , DE should start fixing the issue in some other way, instead of repeating the failed method.

[FelisImpurrator]

So, according to you, being EFFICIENT is bad and should be changed, even if it is not at all detrimental to others' playing the game or atleast when it is done by every other frame?

Now, I know you're addressing someone else, but this reminded me of something I've always wanted to address.

 

Efficiency in and of itself isn't the problem. The problem is player attitudes and priorities. I saw the immediate aftermath of the Pilfering nerf. Very few people were posting, for instance, "DE, please buff Hydroid, because his kit is lackluster and without Pilfering Swarm there's very little to make him viable". Most of the threads were "Please don't nerf Pilfering Swarm because it affects my ability to shake four times as much loot out of enemies by repeating 5 round missions endlessly and spamming tentacles". Gmag nerf? "RIP Mag, she's useless without Greedy Pull! I'm going back to Trinity for my Draco runs!" vastly outweighed "This is why I think Mag's kit is lacking, can we get some buffs and QoL?" This is a very solid and consistent pattern I've observed throughout my entire time on these forums. Do you not see the problem here at all? (And on the subject of it not being at all detrimental, I should note that at the height of Draco fever it was more difficult to NOT find a Gmag squad... nowadays I actually see Mags who don't pullbot all day and actually take an active role in combat.)

 

What this shows, essentially, is that a lot of players simply do not care about the bigger picture. They don't care about, say, Mag or Hydroid or Excalibur as a whole. They don't care about the root cause of all this, which is the grinding issue and the camp-farming. They only cared about one ability because that one ability was a cog in a machine designed to automatically grind enemies into loot as fast as possible, with as little player effort as possible - or in the case of Excal, Covert Lethality, and Syndicate mods, because those things allowed them to stack damage, damage, damage, damage as high as it would go, and ignore most of the melee weapons in the game because they had Two Blades to Rule Them All and everything else was deemed "useless".

 

What was gamebreaking was, say, oneshotting level 2000 enemies by waving a dagger in their general directions. Gaining over a hundred Orokin Cells in an hour of mashing 4 and watching some floppy tentacles shake Drekar enemies like oversized pinatas. EB and augment healing wasn't overpowered, but it was more than a little ridiculous having nearly every Excal run identical Prisma Skana/Cleavers not because they like the weapons at all, but because the weapons gave them 100% more damage on EB.

 

Which is not to say that everyone behaves this way. I've seen some reasonable people who stay away from "BUFF EVERYTHING, SCREW POWERCREEP" and "NERF EVERYTHING, NO FUN ALLOWED" alike. But on these forums, a lot of people are precisely this sort of player, and their "feedback" is not the sort that would help the game in the slightest.

 

Were these knee-jerk reactions? Yes. Am I satisfied with them? No. Should the underlying issues be resolved? Absolutely. But how are they supposed to even start when players swarm like locusts to the next method of breaking the game, when all the real feedback gets constantly overwhelmed by a wave of concentrated salt water daily, when the loudest and most vocal posters are the ones who blatantly don't care about overall balance beyondd whether their favorite uber-combo remains intact?

 

As I've said before, maybe they should just can the weekly update schedule, drop everything, and take a solid month to work on a single update that will knock all the crap out of the system once and for all. Overhaul the abilities and the maps that enable people to break the system. Overhaul the loot tables and affinity, balancing them around a game state where no one can sit on a crate and make it rain by taping down a button for twenty minutes. Rework the warframes whose kits are crippled and plagued with issues, whose only reasons to exist are the loot-feeding abilities that happen to be the only halfway-decent things in the whole set. Take another month to tackle scaling - enemy levels, player output, modding and forma, all of it. Hotfixes reserved for serious bugs. New content put on hold indefinitely until old content can be rebalanced in large chunks.

 

But of course people wouldn't let them do that either. Cue dozens of threads going "Where are the new missions and new weapons!? I have nothing to do except use up my 3000 Orokin cells building forma!" It already happens when the Void Trader brings nothing new, or at least nothing extremely powerful like Primed Flow or Continuity. The salt would just be a dozen times worse... but for all that, they should do it anyway.

[NN13]

-snip-

Yes, you are quite right that many complain about what they see right before their eyes. People are myopic. You can not expect everyone to be far-sighted.

 

That is where developers come in. DE needs to take the right decisions. But so far, I have only seen them taking the wrong decisions in matter of fixing camp-farm.

 

DE needs to realise that no matter what they do, there will be some who will be dissatisfied. That is exactly why they should take the right step.

 

For example, when the Viver crisis surfaced, DE went on to nerf 3 frames. And  then, they reverted the changes. Yet till this day, they did not understand that this camp-farm problem can not be solved by nerfing/tweaking warframes. It needs to be solved by re-working the spawn mechanisms. The one thing that they did right was how they solved E Gate crisis. That is exactly what they were supposed to do to survivals and interceptions are well : Fix spawn mechanism. Do this and everything will start falling into places. The next step should be to 'actually' reduce grind.

 

And about EB and everyone running with Prisma Cleavers and Skana -

 

What do you think will happen now?

Do you really think people will just stop using the best melee weapons?

The answer is no. Now, people will equip Dakra Prime or Dragon Nikana. And stick with that.

 

Now, think of it this way. Prisma Dual Cleavers and Skana, Jaw Sword and Mire are not very popular, at least not as popular as Ichors, Scindo P, Dakra P or D.Nikana. Therefore, normally, about 90% of the people will go for these popular weapons.

 

Now let us take an example.

 

Lets say there is a Player X who chooses the best weapons and follows meta(which is 90% of the Warframe community). And lets say he has Excalibur and some other frame, say Loki.

So, X will surely choose one of Dakra P, Scindo P, D.Nikana, etc. when playing with Loki.

Now, before augment change, he/she at least used any one of Cleavers, skana, jaw sword or mire, since, obviously, he/she goes for the best possible build.

Therefore, with different frames, he/she at least used different weapons. More Diversity.

 

Now, after augment change, he/she will surely stop using cleavers, skana,  jaw sword or mire, for the obvious reason. He/She will just minmax any one of the popular melee weapons and stick with that. Therefore, now, he/she uses the same weapon with both Loki and Excalibur. Less Diversity.

 

There is no point in considering the remaining 10% who likes to use different weapons depending on their mood. Because these players will keep using and testing different weapons and builds, no matter what DE does.

 

Hope you got my point with EB change. This is exactly why I was against the EB augment change. Just so you know, I was not against the Covert Lethality change. I understand it was implemented for the Assassins Creed effect and EB+CL was a bug.

Edited August 22, 2015 by NN13

[Onisa]

Oh, so this is about feeling again. I'm not especially concerned about how things "feel". I'm concerned about what's actually happening. For the record, as far as I'm concerned, this extremely narrow "either-or" is a false dilemma. There are far more possibilities, but I'm not entirely sure you're interested in accepting them as possibilities at this point. But either way, my in-depth response to this entire issue is above... again.

No, it's more of a case of how many times does one have to fail at something before they realize it's not working. I'd like to believe that those at Digital Extremes are intelligent individuals capable of conversing with each other and working towards a shared goal. The short sighted and haphazard nature of some updates however gives off the '1000 monkeys at typewriters' vibe. of course there are more possibilities, ranging from the nefarious 'someone on the team is sabotaging things' to a simple 'they are overwhelmed by the game's success', and everything in between.

But different reasons have different mileage, like I said before. I can only forget to do something important at work so many times before I get a talking to from someone above me, and unless I'm special needs that's probably my only warning to shape up or find new employment.

 

As far as feedback goes though, this is a topic about how trustworthy DE has been of late, and look at what we're discussing. The potential sources of player complaint and the salt generated over what some see as the Devs not wanting their loot game to be played as a loot game.

[FelisImpurrator]

DE needs to realise that no matter what they do, there will be some who will be dissatisfied. That is exactly why they should take the right step.

This is EXACTLY what I've been saying for months. Honestly, DE has spent too long trying to combat the salt tide via appeasement, and being torn between doing that and taking action against abuse. They should simply ignore the empty complaints - the useless ones I've illustrated in detail - and do what's best for the game.

As far as feedback goes though, this is a topic about how trustworthy DE has been of late, and look at what we're discussing. The potential sources of player complaint and the salt generated over what some see as the Devs not wanting their loot game to be played as a loot game.

The thing is. I still don't think DE is particularly untrustworthy. And no, they want it to be played as a loot game... but they want it to be played, which is what a lot of people with their Macro Parties evidently do not want.

 

But anyway, if you know that there are other conclusions, why phrase your statements in a way that suggests otherwise? Illogical statements benefit no one and do nothing to advance discussion (as is evident from the conspiracy theorists here, whose cynicism and disillusionment have gone too far in one direction and overwhelmed their reasoning capability, and the extreme optimists on the other hand who think nothing is wrong).

 

As far as I'm concerned, after watching DE closely, collecting stories from players who were around before me, looking through Warframe's history and the state of things today... my conclusion is that the road to grind hell is paved with the best of intentions, still. That, yes, the team is probably partly overwhelmed by the pace of Warframe's growth in relation to their tiny development team. That perhaps DE is quite aware that its feedback forums are full of terrible ideas - mostly along the lines of "give me everything I want without me having to work for it" - and yet they love the game and its community too much to put their foot down and really shake up something major. Or in the case of Void grind and Starchart 3.0, they're planning to do it, but agonizing so much over how to do it that it's a thing we won't see until the next major update.

 

But either way, I've seen very little to indicate deliberate malice or out-and-out incompetence. Only, maybe, a little too much optimism, and a touch of cognitive dissonance where that clashes with the very obvious fact that some players are the reason we can't have nice things.

 

And just to add one last thing: It's ironic how people accuse DE of not caring, when the most likely explanation is that they simply care too much, and spread themselves too thinly to that end.

Edited August 22, 2015 by FelisImpurrator

[Bachuuu]

Ye these nerfs suck

[Guest (PS4)Baby0Shaq34]

I'm noticing a pattern to this, and I don't think DE is stupid.  If those two statements are correct, it follows that they notice the same pattern.

 

Let's talk frankly about player investment.  You can spend plenty of time in game, you can experience hours of "fun," and you can come to a wall.  Either the game has become broken, you've eaten through all the content, or you've seen through the Skinner box that this game is and become disillusioned.

 

I started playing slightly before Archwing, and managed to stick with the game up to MR 18.  Considering the content that I couldn't access, that was 100% completion of regularly available weapons, frames, companions, etc...  When I reached that point, I looked back and asked one question, was I having fun.

 

It dawns on me that I wasn't.  I was grinding for progress, grinding for RNG loot, and doing all of this on 3% of the available locations in the game.  If most of the game is grinding, and you don't even engage in the game equally, then you've got a progression of numbers.  I felt accomplishment, because my MR goes up.  I felt accomplishment, because that random item finally dropped.  You can simulate both of these things with a tally counter and a random number generator.  Press the number generator, click the tally counter until you've gotten that many clicks, and each time try to do it in less time than the one before.  Sometimes the generator produces a small number, but sometimes you get a huge number where you just have to keep pressing the button.

 

 

I won't deny that Warframe does a decent job of hiding the Skinner box.  Having to reset weapons to power them up should theoretically force you to redo low level content.  Drops are based on worlds, so you have to grind specific worlds for resources.  Content squirts out at a good pace.  All of these things are good, but they can't fix a Skinner box.

 

 

 

OP, I made the same comments as you are making now a few months ago.  When I started with Warframe my friend, who were in the open "beta" before release to everyone, said the same thing to me.  It seems like everyone doesn't want to believe it, but after enough time it dawns on people.  Warframe is a deeply flawed game, that is kept alive largely by a willfully blind player base that is willing to excuse any poor decisions.  DE talks at the players, rather than with them.  DE shows insane levels of pride in their efforts, to the point where valid criticism seems to be ignored because it is criticism.

 

I feel like this is AA.  Hello, my name is <name>, and I haven't logged onto Warframe in almost two months.  I realized it was a problem in my life after the third game breaking bug in two hours ejected me from the game and I rage quit.  The rage quit had been building for quite some time, and it started with every update discovering new ways to be unfinished.  Archwing being absolutely and utterly unplayable was my first sign that the relationship might be abusive.  The point where the idea crystallized was a whole month of crashes every other mission because I used an AMD GPU.  What finally broke me was having all four lives taken from me by one bombard and losing a 40 minute survival, because Zephyr's Turbulence somehow magnified the damage of a rocket.  I was in sight of the ending, but I respawned, was instantly annihilated, and repeated until I got the game over screen.  It was then I knew Warframe was abusing me, and was just a tarted up Skinner box that expected for me to pay for the privilege of being a part of the longest beta game test in history.

 

 

 

 

 

I'll buy that Warframe is hard to code.  I'll buy that DE is doing their very best to get the job done, and they take pride in their work.  Here's my problem.  Assassin's Creed: Unity had a huge development team and insane resources, but still managed to release as a bug fiesta.  Warframe has been out for more than two years, with development time before that release.  Terraria is developed by, functionally, a team as big as the developer stream personnel.  Despite this, they're at release 1.3 in four years.  Each new release has a list of bugs that are smaller than most minor updates to Warframe.  Terraria is stable, it uses RNG in a reasonably fair manner, and has a smaller scope to match a much smaller development team.  Despite this, if you spent the $10 on a copy at release, you've gotten access to all updates free.  No "you have to pay if you want inventory slots" catches, no extended periods where the game didn't work.  No crashing to desktop.  The developers even answer people on their forums, and if you've got fair criticism they respond.  Talk about customer service, enthusiasm for a game, and releases that make most other developers seem to not have any QA in place.  Warframe could be like that, but it isn't.  We're beta testers, we're not particularly cared about by the developers (their streams are talking at us, not with us), and our opinions don't matter. 

 

If this was a restaurant, rather than a game, would you pay money?  The service occasionally completely forgets they've seated you.  You're given unlimited free garlic bread, but are charged if you need something so basic as a fork to eat your meal.  If you order soup, sometimes you'll wait 20 minutes and be served a sandwich.  Whenever you complain that you ordered soup you are ignored.  Once you finally dig into the sandwich, you find that the bread is half toasted and half raw, the meat still raw, the rest of the toppings are visually correct but taste of cardboard, and every five minutes the chef walks out, takes you sandwich back to the kitchen, heats up the meat a bit, and returns you the sandwich with one less or changed topping.  When you go to pay for your meal, you realize that the server has walked out and keyed a naughty word onto the side of your car.  What you see from the outside is a beautiful restaurant, which serves gorgeous food.  Once you've been to the restaurant, you know that appearances and impressions are counter to your experience.  The staff may love their jobs and be proud of the restaurant, but you'll never come back to that nightmare.  The squandered promise from Warframe, combined with lackluster mechanics, is what kills it.  All that promise, wasted so carelessly, is a knife to the heart.

 

 

Edit:

Minor grammatical changes.

^This^

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Okay, if you actually DO practice it, then I will take your opinion as valid. As far as I can on the internet anyway.

 

But not everyone will share it.

 

For myself? The wall running is a bit off still for me. The fact that you can alter direction in mid-run is nice. I sort of see going up as a 'grab wall, thrust upwards' type of action. Kind of like climbers do with ice axes on REALLY high mountains sometimes but far, far faster. They get a solid grip, then propel themselves up. Admittedly, I have only seen THAT on TV and in movies, so I have NO idea how realistic THAT is. But I have seen people scamper up walls -and not just purpose built climbing walls- like Spiderman throwing themselves from hold to hold. Seeing them on actual climbing walls is UNREAL. They move almost as fast as a Tenno moves in game. (Maybe not a Loki tho... :) )

 

I DO miss the freight train feel of the old wall run. The 'Get in my way and get hurt as you fall a long ways' feeling.

 

The 'hopping onto and off of enemies and into groups of them to make a mess' never gets old.

It's not that big a deal to climb some walls like spider man if they have some place to get a hand hold of some kind or if two walls are close together irl, but that isn't what the 10o are doing when they wall bunny hop.  With the ice axe those people are pulling themselves up and towards the mountain, so it makes sense.  The wall bunny hopping is actually pushing them away from the wall.

[Empiren]

Yes, you are quite right that many complain about what they see right before their eyes. People are myopic. You can not expect everyone to be far-sighted.

 

That is where developers come in. DE needs to take the right decisions. But so far, I have only seen them taking the wrong decisions in matter of fixing camp-farm.

 

DE needs to realise that no matter what they do, there will be some who will be dissatisfied. That is exactly why they should take the right step.

 

For example, when the Viver crisis surfaced, DE went on to nerf 3 frames. And  then, they reverted the changes. Yet till this day, they did not understand that this camp-farm problem can not be solved by nerfing/tweaking warframes. It needs to be solved by re-working the spawn mechanisms. The one thing that they did right was how they solved E Gate crisis. That is exactly what they were supposed to do to survivals and interceptions are well : Fix spawn mechanism. Do this and everything will start falling into places. The next step should be to 'actually' reduce grind.

 

And about EB and everyone running with Prisma Cleavers and Skana -

 

What do you think will happen now?

Do you really think people will just stop using the best melee weapons?

The answer is no. Now, people will equip Dakra Prime or Dragon Nikana. And stick with that.

 

Now, think of it this way. Prisma Dual Cleavers and Skana, Jaw Sword and Mire are not very popular, at least not as popular as Ichors, Scindo P, Dakra P or D.Nikana. Therefore, normally, about 90% of the people will go for these popular weapons.

 

Now let us take an example.

 

Lets say there is a Player X who chooses the best weapons and follows meta(which is 90% of the Warframe community). And lets say he has Excalibur and some other frame, say Loki.

So, X will surely choose one of Dakra P, Scindo P, D.Nikana, etc. when playing with Loki.

Now, before augment change, he/she at least used any one of Cleavers, skana, jaw sword or mire, since, obviously, he/she goes for the best possible build.

Therefore, with different frames, he/she at least used different weapons. More Diversity.

 

Now, after augment change, he/she will surely stop using cleavers, skana,  jaw sword or mire, for the obvious reason. He/She will just minmax any one of the popular melee weapons and stick with that. Therefore, now, he/she uses the same weapon with both Loki and Excalibur. Less Diversity.

 

There is no point in considering the remaining 10% who likes to use different weapons depending on their mood. Because these players will keep using and testing different weapons and builds, no matter what DE does.

 

Hope you got my point with EB change. This is exactly why I was against the EB augment change. Just so you know, I was not against the Covert Lethality change. I understand it was implemented for the Assassins Creed effect and EB+CL was a bug.

I had made a thread expressing this same opinion and got nothing but flaming.

 

Ty for this.

[Tyrian3k]

Yes, you are quite right that many complain about what they see right before their eyes. People are myopic. You can not expect everyone to be far-sighted.

 

That is where developers come in. DE needs to take the right decisions. But so far, I have only seen them taking the wrong decisions in matter of fixing camp-farm.

 

DE needs to realise that no matter what they do, there will be some who will be dissatisfied. That is exactly why they should take the right step.

 

For example, when the Viver crisis surfaced, DE went on to nerf 3 frames. And  then, they reverted the changes. Yet till this day, they did not understand that this camp-farm problem can not be solved by nerfing/tweaking warframes. It needs to be solved by re-working the spawn mechanisms. The one thing that they did right was how they solved E Gate crisis. That is exactly what they were supposed to do to survivals and interceptions are well : Fix spawn mechanism. Do this and everything will start falling into places. The next step should be to 'actually' reduce grind.

 

And about EB and everyone running with Prisma Cleavers and Skana -

 

What do you think will happen now?

Do you really think people will just stop using the best melee weapons?

The answer is no. Now, people will equip Dakra Prime or Dragon Nikana. And stick with that.

 

Now, think of it this way. Prisma Dual Cleavers and Skana, Jaw Sword and Mire are not very popular, at least not as popular as Ichors, Scindo P, Dakra P or D.Nikana. Therefore, normally, about 90% of the people will go for these popular weapons.

 

Now let us take an example.

 

Lets say there is a Player X who chooses the best weapons and follows meta(which is 90% of the Warframe community). And lets say he has Excalibur and some other frame, say Loki.

So, X will surely choose one of Dakra P, Scindo P, D.Nikana, etc. when playing with Loki.

Now, before augment change, he/she at least used any one of Cleavers, skana, jaw sword or mire, since, obviously, he/she goes for the best possible build.

Therefore, with different frames, he/she at least used different weapons. More Diversity.

 

Now, after augment change, he/she will surely stop using cleavers, skana,  jaw sword or mire, for the obvious reason. He/She will just minmax any one of the popular melee weapons and stick with that. Therefore, now, he/she uses the same weapon with both Loki and Excalibur. Less Diversity.

 

There is no point in considering the remaining 10% who likes to use different weapons depending on their mood. Because these players will keep using and testing different weapons and builds, no matter what DE does.

 

Hope you got my point with EB change. This is exactly why I was against the EB augment change. Just so you know, I was not against the Covert Lethality change. I understand it was implemented for the Assassins Creed effect and EB+CL was a bug.

I can agree with DE having to rework spawn mechanics instead of Warframes and likewise I think they should fix Mirage instead of "fixing" particle heavy weapons which cause fps lag if used with Mirage's Hall of Mirrors.

Saying that there was more diversity before the change is plain wrong.

First of all, you say that players use only the best weapons, so we're talking about minmaxers there. Then you say people would use the Mire before the change, but that's a horrlible weapon that a minmaxer wouldn't use, as is the Jaw Sword.

A minmaxer had exactly two choices before the change, the two Prisma weapon because those two were the only ones that were good as weapons and provided a good buff to EB at the same time.

Did those choices vanish after the change? No. The Prisma Dual Cleavers are pretty much on par with the Dual Ichors, if not even better while the Prisma Skana is not too much worse than the Dakra Prime to say that it's completely useless. If you do say it's useless as a weapon, I say you never intended to hit anyone with it when equipping it on excal either.

Anyone who used Jaw Sword or Mire or any other of the syndicate weapons you may list was solely equipping them for the buff they gave to EB, never even considering to attack anything with it and even if he did,so what? A person using e.g. the Mire to actually fight clearly doesn't care about minmaxing, so what's stopping them from using the Mire after the change? Nothing.

In other words: If you used a bad weapon before the change, you either did it to maximise your EB or you simply like the weapon and don't care about minmaxing, so you either didn't use the bad weapon in combat before or you have no reason to not use it after the change.

For the good weapons you could use before you simply have no reason to not use them on other frames.

No diversity was lost at all.

[Kalenath]

It's not that big a deal to climb some walls like spider man if they have some place to get a hand hold of some kind or if two walls are close together irl, but that isn't what the 10o are doing when they wall bunny hop.  With the ice axe those people are pulling themselves up and towards the mountain, so it makes sense.  The wall bunny hopping is actually pushing them away from the wall.

 

Its it? Or is a field that they project from their palms holding them to the wall that grabs and releases, impelling them in their chosen direction?

 

I seem to see a sphere of energy on the palm when the Tenno touch the walls. It flattens when the Tenno latches.

 

Or maybe I am just seeing things. Possible.

[TheBrsrkr]

A bit late to the party, but I would like to ask you a few things about the following point you raised -

'But what did you say, Don't do it because it's balanced? Don't do it because it's actually not a problem? Don't do it because it doesn't break the game? No.It's don't do it because I'm not as EFFICIENT. Don't do it because I don't like nerfs. Don't do it because it doesn't affect me negatively, and those who are negatively affected are whiners. These are not good enough reasons.'

So, according to you previous Pilfering Swarm or EB+augment was not balanced? If so, are they balanced now?

So, according to you these things were a problem? Thats weird, considering the fact that not a single person complained about Pilfering Swarm or the augment effect on EB for that matter. The only complain people had about EB was the enormous damage output it can attain and that is still the case.

So, according to you, 'others' gaining more tellurium' was game breaking? Or, people able to heal back their frame was game breaking? Also, if 'Excal killing everything' was game breaking to you, let me tell you that its as game breaking as before(though I do not consider it game breaking).

So, according to you, being EFFICIENT is bad and should be changed, even if it is not at all detrimental to others' playing the game or atleast when it is done by every other frame?

So, according to you, each one of us said not to change these things because each and every one of us hate nerfs? That's quite an assumption, in fact, so bold of an assumption that its insulting to many.

So, Pilfering Hydroid and EB+augment healing was affecting you negatively? How, sir?

P.S.- From my past encounters with you, I haven't got a straight forward answer to the questions I asked you. So, this time, if you do not have a straight forward answer, I would request you to not waste your time replying to this post.

As for DE and Hydroid change, this was a very quick knee-jerk reaction to Ophelia. But the thing is, instead of changing the augment, maybe they should have just tried to disperse the spawn in the entire map, so camp-farm could be eliminated.

The problem with such knee-jerk changes is that they are not permanent. People will eventually find another way, maybe a bit less efficient one. But if the main problem was addressed, this would never have been a problem in the future.

We have had so many frames' abilities changed/tweaked/nerfed to stop camp-farm. But did it stop? No. Then, maybe , DE should start fixing the issue in some other way, instead of repeating the failed method.

Pilfering Swarm is more or less balanced now, but the recent EB change was not about balancing damage, but choice. As I said before, Syndicate weapons were objectively the best weapons to use for EB, which I suspect DE was trying to avoid in the first place by having it use mods instead of weapon stats like Valkyr.

Pilfering Swarm wasn't okay because it was too limiting to the entire team, as it were. Since only Hydroid's kills produced more loot, only Hydroid could actually play while the other three just stood there not playing. It was efficient, but it wasn't gameplay.

According to your assumption, you mean. I said no such thing. Persons preventing their team from doing anything isn't balanced. How do you farm Tellerium with Hydroid anyway? Isn't it an Archwing only drop?

According to me, efficiency is bad when it competes with balanced gameplay. Neither Hydroid nor Excalibur affected the user only. They DO detrimentally affect other players, for the reasons stated. More assumptions.

And finally, you assume that I made assumptions. Did I say that everyone did that? Did I imply it? No. I said, and you can quote me on this, that those reasons are not good enough reasons. If you have other reasons to revert the changes, I would love to see a thread about them. If you can somehow show that limiting diversity after specifically going out of the way to promote diversity is somehow fair and balanced to all, make a thread on it. If you can write a bit on why Hydroid alone should be playing in a team of 4, be my guest. Expect criticism.

P.S. If you keep loading your questions and making unfounded and irrational assumptions, how is anyone going to give you a straight answer?

Yes, instead of trying to solve the actual problem of Hydroid's augment invalidating everyone's experience and generating dozens if not hundreds of the rarest resources in an hour or so, we should change the entire game to suit it, right? Right. That makes sense. If the main problem were addressed, which is DROP RATE, you would simply have more farming. More Hydroid generating more loot. You can't fix spawns when the players can manipulate them, because you have to account for the manipulation. So it's either drops drop 4x less to account for Hydroid, or Hydroid stops making 4x more loot drop, so everyone can get it regardless. Which sounds more reasonable?

Edited August 23, 2015 by TheBrsrkr

[RealPandemonium]

 How do you farm Tellerium with Hydroid anyway? Isn't it an Archwing only drop?

The submersible tilesets on Uranus can drop Tellurium from any mob.  Even without PS, though, Nekros can just use a Tigris to mince large groups of enemies and Desecrate them for big returns.  The main difference is that theoretically you could double your return with PS.  

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

Yes, you are quite right that many complain about what they see right before their eyes. People are myopic. You can not expect everyone to be far-sighted.

 

That is where developers come in. DE needs to take the right decisions. But so far, I have only seen them taking the wrong decisions in matter of fixing camp-farm.

 

DE needs to realise that no matter what they do, there will be some who will be dissatisfied. That is exactly why they should take the right step.

 

For example, when the Viver crisis surfaced, DE went on to nerf 3 frames. And  then, they reverted the changes. Yet till this day, they did not understand that this camp-farm problem can not be solved by nerfing/tweaking warframes. It needs to be solved by re-working the spawn mechanisms. The one thing that they did right was how they solved E Gate crisis. That is exactly what they were supposed to do to survivals and interceptions are well : Fix spawn mechanism. Do this and everything will start falling into places. The next step should be to 'actually' reduce grind.

 

And about EB and everyone running with Prisma Cleavers and Skana -

 

What do you think will happen now?

Do you really think people will just stop using the best melee weapons?

The answer is no. Now, people will equip Dakra Prime or Dragon Nikana. And stick with that.

 

Now, think of it this way. Prisma Dual Cleavers and Skana, Jaw Sword and Mire are not very popular, at least not as popular as Ichors, Scindo P, Dakra P or D.Nikana. Therefore, normally, about 90% of the people will go for these popular weapons.

 

Now let us take an example.

 

Lets say there is a Player X who chooses the best weapons and follows meta(which is 90% of the Warframe community). And lets say he has Excalibur and some other frame, say Loki.

So, X will surely choose one of Dakra P, Scindo P, D.Nikana, etc. when playing with Loki.

Now, before augment change, he/she at least used any one of Cleavers, skana, jaw sword or mire, since, obviously, he/she goes for the best possible build.

Therefore, with different frames, he/she at least used different weapons. More Diversity.

 

Now, after augment change, he/she will surely stop using cleavers, skana,  jaw sword or mire, for the obvious reason. He/She will just minmax any one of the popular melee weapons and stick with that. Therefore, now, he/she uses the same weapon with both Loki and Excalibur. Less Diversity.

 

There is no point in considering the remaining 10% who likes to use different weapons depending on their mood. Because these players will keep using and testing different weapons and builds, no matter what DE does.

 

Hope you got my point with EB change. This is exactly why I was against the EB augment change. Just so you know, I was not against the Covert Lethality change. I understand it was implemented for the Assassins Creed effect and EB+CL was a bug.

What the players choose to do doesn't matter as it solely entirely up to them, what matters is that no weapon gives an advantage during EB making so every other weapon makes you lose a big deal of power for EB. If players choose to only use "the best" is up to them, as not all of them care about "the best" melee weapon, they can just use anything and make the power just as strong.

People barely used those weapons outside of EB, so you might as well say that the "10%" that did use them doesn't matter, and that now you can be efficient in both EB and outside of it, while before you could only maximize one of the other, and so making so the "10%" that you decided to ignore is benefited because they can now use any weapon, and the "10%" that used the Skana/whatever outside of EB can still do it as well, they just don't get the 100% damage bonus in EB, which really, was broken as hell and even without it Excal still grinds high level enemies into dust in a couple of seconds (level 95 enemies still feel like level 10 enemies when they get hit by EB, except they deal more damage), and everyone else can just keep using "the best" and fail to complain about the real issue with melee and weapons in general, they are badly balanced between each others, but better complain about Excal getting a nerf that barely puts him down in the same tier as other frames and can still easily break the game if the user has a brain.

What DE did is true, diversity is allowed for EB and every weapon during EB is treated as equal, what players players choose is up to them, but if a player that only uses 1 weapon fails to see that the "no diversity" problem has nothing to do with EB, I'd say they seriously should reconsider about which game they should be playing.

If God actually exists/ed and descended to this world, there would still be people that wouldn't believe that it was God who's in front them, there will always be that won't believe even when all the proof is right in front of their eyes, just like how there will always be people dissatisfied by something even when you think that what you did was "right". This time, you guys are on the dissatisfied side, next time perhaps someone else will be, and the fact here is, there will always be dissatisfied people, no matter what. And it doesn't matter how many of your factual numbers of populace is dissatisfied, some times the numbers are greater, other times not as great, but there will always be someone saying that it's "a lot of people". And number of pages doesn't really matter when the whole thread is about people going in circles with the same handful of arguments, many of the posts by the same people, which artificially inflates the "spectrum" of the thread, and when someone reads it all, it's nothing but a balloon filled with nothing but air, blow it and only the rubber is left behind, quite a few times smaller than what it was before.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Sorrow0110

[NN13]

I can agree with DE having to rework spawn mechanics instead of Warframes and likewise I think they should fix Mirage instead of "fixing" particle heavy weapons which cause fps lag if used with Mirage's Hall of Mirrors.

Saying that there was more diversity before the change is plain wrong.

First of all, you say that players use only the best weapons, so we're talking about minmaxers there. Then you say people would use the Mire before the change, but that's a horrlible weapon that a minmaxer wouldn't use, as is the Jaw Sword.

A minmaxer had exactly two choices before the change, the two Prisma weapon because those two were the only ones that were good as weapons and provided a good buff to EB at the same time.

Did those choices vanish after the change? No. The Prisma Dual Cleavers are pretty much on par with the Dual Ichors, if not even better while the Prisma Skana is not too much worse than the Dakra Prime to say that it's completely useless. If you do say it's useless as a weapon, I say you never intended to hit anyone with it when equipping it on excal either.

Anyone who used Jaw Sword or Mire or any other of the syndicate weapons you may list was solely equipping them for the buff they gave to EB, never even considering to attack anything with it and even if he did,so what? A person using e.g. the Mire to actually fight clearly doesn't care about minmaxing, so what's stopping them from using the Mire after the change? Nothing.

In other words: If you used a bad weapon before the change, you either did it to maximise your EB or you simply like the weapon and don't care about minmaxing, so you either didn't use the bad weapon in combat before or you have no reason to not use it after the change.

For the good weapons you could use before you simply have no reason to not use them on other frames.

No diversity was lost at all.

The thing you said was that people who used cleavers and skana did not go out of EB and therefore, did not actually use the melee. Then, you also understand that those who never went out of EB then will not go out of EB now as well, right?

If we consider that, then we all should stop the diversity debate.

 

But why are we debating on diversity? Because Miss Megan's post in the PSA pointed towards increasing diversity.

 

Yes, now DE increased the diversity for Excalibur himself, but in the process, lost a bit of diversity in the game as a whole. Which do you think is better?

 

My point was that at least people equipped the less-popular weapons for there exalted blade. That actually made many players try out weapons like Jaw sword and Mire for the first time. And maybe, just maybe, a handful of those actually liked it. Thats a possibility.

But as of now, minmaxer players won't even bother equipping these weapons, let alone use them.

 

Edit- As for choices vanishing, it doesn't matter. In my 2 years Warframe career, I have seen very few people 'choosing' instead of 'following'.

Edited August 23, 2015 by NN13

[Tyrian3k]

The thing you said was that people who used cleavers and skana did not go out of EB and therefore, did not actually use the melee. Then, you also understand that those who never went out of EB then will not go out of EB now as well, right?

If we consider that, then we all should stop the diversity debate.

 

But why are we debating on diversity? Because Miss Megan's post in the PSA pointed towards increasing diversity.

 

Yes, now DE increased the diversity for Excalibur himself, but in the process, lost a bit of diversity in the game as a whole. Which do you think is better?

 

My point was that at least people equipped the less-popular weapons for there exalted blade. That actually made many players try out weapons like Jaw sword and Mire for the first time. And maybe, just maybe, a handful of those actually liked it. Thats a possibility.

But as of now, minmaxer players won't even bother equipping these weapons, let alone use them.

 

Edit- As for choices vanishing, it doesn't matter. In my 2 years Warframe career, I have seen very few people 'choosing' instead of 'following'.

Right now EB has the potential to never run out because it uses very little energy. If that changes, which is quite possible, then the weapon choices of players become relevant again and they wouldn't be limited to only 2 melee weapons that can actually deal decent damage like they would have been before.

Who actually used the Jaw Sword or Mire? Anyone who equipped those on Excalibur would have just gone with EB and never even used as much as a quick melee.

What diversity can you even discover in the Jaw Sword and the Mire?

It's just 2 more Longswords that behave like all other Longswords in combat. Everything else is just a change of numbered statistics, so the one with the highest stats is the overall winner. The only reason why you'd choose those weapons is maybe for the looks, but you don't need to try them out to see if you like their looks, do you?

[ProfessorZero]

Let us first understand this, in any game, even such game which are rigorously balanced, there is a tier-system. This is a constant even in real life (sports teams and ratings). Now for example I consider the DragNikana and Dakra Prime to be pretty equal, whereas something like the kogake just doesn't measure up (I love the kogake, it has its uses, but its simply not in the same class). This is a game where, once modded, everything does a huge multiple of its base damage. (Ahem {[1+1.65]*1.9}*[1+3.6+1.4]} is like 30.2x the base damage for rifles assuming serration multishot and a full elemental set, for pistols its 47.2 times the damage.) Now lets assume we have to guns, one that does 100, and the other does 70 base damage, in roughly the same IPS grouping. That means that rifle A does 3020 damage per shot and rifle B does 2240 damage per shot, a difference of 800 damage. Thats huge, even though percent wise, they are acceptably close. In a game where enemies can easily have upwards of 20K health, im not going to take that much of a hit, if it was the difference between 2 shoting and threeshoting an enemy maybe, but when I'm pumping seven shots into a gay and then they go down, I have to worry about ammo consumption. Having to deal with an extra 2 shots per enemy in waves that spawn 20 enemies is to much cost. Thats an extra second per enemy, so an extra 20 seconds. Keep in mind, its the last 20 seconds that will kill you, not the first.

 

 

The current meta of warframe is not just kill or be killed, its kill as fast as possible or die. Having to focus on one group for 20 seconds extra can kill you, it can kill your teammates, etc etc. I can frankly tell you that I don't forma many weapons, so im not exactly a minmaxer, but even I have my "oh S#&amp;&#036;" guns. I appreciate running around mercury with nothing but a braton mk1 and a lato, but that doesn't mean that I think weapons like the mire (or god forbid the .666 swing speed plasma sword) are viable in any sense. My favorite weapon in this game is the ceramic dagger, I don't know why but it is, and I'll take it along for S#&amp;&#036;s and giggles, but only for that. 

 

The "nerf" makes sense, why would the dual cleaver specifc mod work on an energy skana? even without worrying about gamebreaking this nerf makes sense to me from a logic standpoint. Lets all keep in mind this, since excal can use literally any weapon for its mods, players aren't going to give a crap about which ones they bring in reference to EB, but they are still going to care about it in reference to the rest of the game Nobody will want to use a S#&amp;&#036;-tier weapon for the sake of "diversity" outside of say their one or two absolute favorite weapons. Weapons like the Mire, the Magistar, the Plasma sword, will remain unused because they suck more than a dyson vacuum on a dirt road and even if the syndicate mods could still apply to excal, people would use the ones that apply to the best weapons. If my sword sucks im not going to headbutt a grineer for twenty hits, im going to run or use my powers or whatever. Nobody is going to realistically take a substantial nerf to their melee to use EB, especially once we get the energy drain brought up on that power some more.

[FelisImpurrator]

You know what? Once again I see a very good set of points being made about key systems that could be overhauled, with minimal flame, minal argumentativeness and minimal expectations.

In my honest opinion, I am currently thinking that a thread, co-run by someone with too much time on their hands and a Community Moderator who is willing/able to spend time on it, and is preferably also on the design council,, that condenses nothing but Solutions, without the hate and flame and so forth, would be incredibly beneficial to this game.

Ideally some arrangement could be met where it is read by DE itself, say, once a week, but that is just too much to ask at the moment...

I'm talking about a thread to mend wounds, bringing reasonable, post flame ideas to an open table.

^THIS to an utterly absurd degree.

 

I would volunteer to manage this thread. In an instant. If I were at DE I would make it my first priority to check such a thread daily, take notes, and pass it on to the rest of the team in a little file marked HIGH PRIORITY. Something, anything that cuts through the salt and brings some real, solid ideas - I would be all over it. The one thing that annoys me more than anything else on these forums is pointless whining and bickering back and forth while all the good ideas are buried and left to rot, and that's where all the sarcasm and the mockery come in. As much as I would like to stay productive and focus on good ideas all the time, frustration overtakes... but if something like this ever happened, I would be first in line to support it.

[FelisImpurrator]

They've been missing it since day 1.

On-top of that, they sort of said the wanted it around day 1 but it never appeared.

Sigh. Well, I hope it happens one day. I'll get in line.

[Ziegrif]

I would also love to run such a thread, but I have no idea how one might go about contacting, or getting a contact in DE in order to arrange it, to impress it's importance on someone who is willing to understand it and who can have the authority to act on it.

 

PM DERebecca and suggest it?

The devs do have accounts here.

[FelisImpurrator]

I've dealt with [DE]Rebecca before, and [DE]Danielle.

Hmm...

[DE]Rebecca at least, while very busy, is open to PMs. I've also talked to [DE]Glen before, but he's not quite the one for this.

 

If you do contact them, drop my name. I have a LOT of ideas stored.

[FelisImpurrator]

Remember, they've got tons of ideas in the Fan Concepts section. We're talking about Solutions to specific problem as they arise and as the fans perceive them.

More than generating ideas it would be about sifting through hundreds of posts and disgruntled threads, as this one started out, to find good solutions that the fans want.

I genuinely can't give that much time to this at the moment... Hell, I've just spent a week trying to reduce the amount I play this game and spend looking things up about it or talking o the forums, so I on't be contacting anyone.

Seeing as you said you would like the job, I would wholeheartedly recommend you contact her and ask about it. Drop a link to the thread, if you get one started, and I will be a frequent contributor.

Oh. Forgot to specify. A lot of my ideas are actually put together by reading the forums, collecting the best suggestions, and refining them into something coherent... like my Hydroid thread, which collates all the great ideas people have had for reworking the poor guy and puts them together without taking the "throw everything out and start from scratch" approach. But I'll think about it.

[FelisImpurrator]

So are most of mine.

I just finished altering my above post, so please tell me what you think.

It's interesting, but so massive that I think it would be best to wait until Update 18 before putting forth a suggestion of that scale.

[TheBrsrkr]

Screening the forums? Sounds progressive.