We Need A Fourth Starter Frame

[Kestral9999]

I agree that a character should be chosen on it abilities and not if it has bewbs or balls.  But, there are a large amount of female players that disagree and, like I mentioned earlier in this post, there have been female players that are turned off by only having one female to choose from.

Exactly, it matters more than people make it out to. Females represent 46% of habitual gamers, and that demographic could easily increase within our community if we were to simply right this not-so-intentional wrong. The current starting lineup gives new players this false impression that there are going to be mostly male frames to choose from later in the game and if that isn't something you're interested in it might spurn you from playing before you even have the chance to realize it's not true.

 

I'm not a female rights activist per se, but I promote equality where I can. Thus far, as I stated in the OP, so does DE and this one particular facet of the game showing disproportionate gender representation doesn't jive with that and should be changed. There are no logical disputes against that save for, "It doesn't HAVE to be a female" to which I've already rebutted adequately, and "There are better male choices suited to the starting lineup" to which I say you may have a point. But why would we further skew the ratio when we have an opportunity to balance it? As long as we have a suitable female option to fill the role, I'll continue to promote her.

 

 

Anyway, this could all be solved by simply giving us the option to swap genders on our frames but DE has already stated they have absolutely no interest in doing so. Maybe a female variant of an existing frame can eventually take the proposed fourth slot.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Kestral9999

[Kestral9999]

I'm a firm believer in the position that what you do matters more than who you say you are. If another frame has to be added to the roster, I wouldn't care either way. I will take a firm stance against it, though, if it HAS to be female because of no other reason than it is female.

I'm in agreement over your views of function over genetalia. I've provided reason as to why it SHOULD be female and because of the fact that this is a thread that I've started, with which I had a goal, I'm going to try to keep it in line with my ideals. That doesn't mean anything to the contrary of my idea is going to be shut down. You're welcome to state your own views and opinions, this is a forum after all, but I'm still going to push my agenda regardless. I'm not normally the type to be this stubborn, but I know that what I'm standing for is a just cause that will help the game in the long run.

 

Why should we have an even further skewed representation of both sexes by adding yet another male frame to the lineup, assuming this change were to come to pass?

Edited September 1, 2015 by Kestral9999

[akira_him]

I am suprised that no one mentioned Oberon, he is also a all-rounder like Excalibur

Make him the 4th frame

[Hitexh]

the forth one is limbo. The weakest and useless warframe of course.

[MumblesMcphatty]

I'd argue that Nyx is way too OP in general to be handing out as a starter frame.

 

Admittedly they won't have Chaos accessible right away - but its still a huge disconnect from learning to play the game ... when with Nyx you kinda don't have to play the game much at all - haha!

 

Banshee ... eh ... I'm on the fence about - her intricate beauty might be overlooked by some rookies and she'll get even more unjustly maligned than she does now.

 

Ember would be a better choice IMO - since she's arguably most effective before enemy armour scaling makes her fire damage kinda useless, She'd see a broader window of effectiveness if she was immediately accessible - rather than obtainable right around the level her effectiveness begins to drop off. 

 

Disagree entirely with those who said Mag should be removed - I loved her starting out and have no regrets. Shield Polarise is a huge boon to newer players because they're using it for its defensive utility - not the room nuker she eventually becomes. 

[Kestral9999]

I'd argue that Nyx is way too OP in general to be handing out as a starter frame.

 

Admittedly they won't have Chaos accessible right away - but its still a huge disconnect from learning to play the game ... when with Nyx you kinda don't have to play the game much at all - haha!

 

Banshee ... eh ... I'm on the fence about - her intricate beauty might be overlooked by some rookies and she'll get even more unjustly maligned than she does now.

 

Ember would be a better choice IMO - since she's arguably most effective before enemy armour scaling makes her fire damage kinda useless, She'd see a broader window of effectiveness if she was immediately accessible - rather than obtainable right around the level her effectiveness begins to drop off. 

 

Disagree entirely with those who said Mag should be removed - I loved her starting out and have no regrets. Shield Polarise is a huge boon to newer players because they're using it for its defensive utility - not the room nuker she eventually becomes. 

Well, I agree with you pretty much entirely regarding Nyx and Mag.

 

While I do love using Ember and find she'd make a good addition for newer players, I feel like her WoF being limited to both duration and energy drain would be a bit crippling to anyone who doesn't have the mods to make up for it. That is just one ability though and also why she is still a good contender.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Kestral9999

[MumblesMcphatty]

While I do love using Ember and find she'd make a good addition for newer players, I feel like her WoF being limited to both duration and energy drain would be a bit crippling to anyone who doesn't have the mods to make up for it. That is just one ability though and also why she is still a good contender.

 

Most of the concerns about the difficulty of modding Ember come from the problem of fitting max rank mods into an effective build.

 

From the perspective of a beginner - its kinda moot  - even a damaged Stretch would be enough to just run around Mercury, Earth + Venus watching everything burn. 

[Kestral9999]

Most of the concerns about the difficulty of modding Ember come from the problem of fitting max rank mods into an effective build.

 

From the perspective of a beginner - its kinda moot  - even a damaged Stretch would be enough to just run around Mercury, Earth + Venus watching everything burn. 

Fair enough, it's more of a concern I wanted to raise than an actual issue. 

[Kestral9999]

I am suprised that no one mentioned Oberon, he is also a all-rounder like Excalibur

Make him the 4th frame

Honestly, considering the nature of Oberon's power, I'd suggest he actually needs to be tougher to obtain. I've got enough parts for him to build a small army.

[MagPrime]

-snip-

Yes, it's just a video game but some people need to feel some kind of 'connection' to the character that they're playing.  For many, it's that they share some kind of physical characteristic, generally in the form of gender.

 

And if digital gender is a none issue to you, why give such a hostile response to the proposal of changing things?  I don't see what the issue is with having a 2:2 ratio to make players feel better as well as preventing redundancy when 4 players start together.  

 

 

Exactly, it matters more than people make it out to. Females represent 46% of habitual gamers, and that demographic could easily increase within our community if we were to simply right this not-so-intentional wrong. The current starting lineup gives new players this false impression that there are going to be mostly male frames to choose from later in the game and if that isn't something you're interested in it might spurn you from playing before you even have the chance to realize it's not true.

 

I'm not a female rights activist per se, but I promote equality where I can. Thus far, as I stated in the OP, so does DE and this one particular facet of the game showing disproportionate gender representation doesn't jive with that and should be changed. There are no logical disputes against that save for, "It doesn't HAVE to be a female" to which I've already rebutted adequately.

 

 

Anyway, this could all be solved by simply giving us the option to swap genders on our frames but DE has already stated they have absolutely no interest in doing so. Maybe a female variant of an existing frame can eventually take the proposed fourth slot.

While I am female, I'm not really an activist in anyway.  I just believe that gender has no bearing on abilities (aside from major physical characteristics that get in the way i.e. giant boobs preventing jobs with a lot of lifting, etc.) and that a person should be chosen because they fit the criteria, not because the company needs a 2:2 ratio.

 

Don't get me wrong, having a 2:2 is a good idea for our starters!  It helps female gamers get into the game due to people needing some kind of relatable aspect.   I just don't want a female 'frame added just because she's female, she should be there because she's a benefit to the starting experience and promotes good gameplay.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Noamuth

[Kestral9999]

 

Yes, it's just a video game but some people need to feel some kind of 'connection' to the character that they're playing.  For many, it's that they share some kind of physical characteristic, generally in the form of gender.

 

And if digital gender is a none issue to you, why give such a hostile response to the proposal of changing things?  I don't see what the issue is with having a 2:2 ratio to make players feel better as well as preventing redundancy when 4 players start together.  

 

 

While I am female, I'm not really an activist in anyway.  I just believe that gender has no bearing on abilities (aside from major physical characteristics that get in the way i.e. giant boobs preventing jobs with a lot of lifting, etc.) and that a person should be chosen because they fit the criteria, not because the company needs a 2:2 ratio.

 

Don't get me wrong, having a 2:2 is a good idea for our starters!  It helps female gamers get into the game due to people needing some kind of relatable aspect.   I just don't want a female 'frame added just because she's female, she should be there because she's a benefit to the starting experience and promotes good gameplay.

 

I agree with you, I'm not adamantly demanding that it be female (although some of my posts seem to indicate that, in retrospect) I just feel like if there is a good candidate within the female frames it should be considered as opposed to choosing another male to give us a 3:1 ratio.

[MagPrime]

I agree with you, I'm not adamantly demanding that it be female (although some of my posts seem to indicate that, in retrospect) I just feel like if there is a good candidate within the female frames it should be considered as opposed to choosing another male to give us a 3:1 ratio.

Ah, okay.  I agree with that 100%

[Metalbawkses]

Probably add in Rhino. I personally don't think others will fit just because the current line up lacks hp tanky character.

[AutoPhox]

Id go with Ember since her abilities are easy to understand. Its all damage with a little CC and defence splashed in. Once new players get a feel for Warframe's version of the commonly expected "run-and-gun" play style, found in most shooter games, they can experiment with other frames. I guess the idea of starter frames is to ease players into the learning curve of Warframe's combat and how the frames can control the battlefield in so many different ways. Perhaps AoE damage output is a simple and fun way to start.

 

-but im not really going to argue against other frames since they are all supposed to be good from beginning to end.

[MopUpCrewman]

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_Boom

Sonic Boom

Banshee emits a sonic shockwave that pushes targets in range with enough force to incapacitate or kill attackers.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Fireball

Fireball

Launches a fiery projectile. It deals high fire damage on contact and moderate fire damage to any who enter the lingering flames.

Try again.

Try Again?

I think you're taking this too personally as my message wasn't directed specifically towards you.

My message was directed towards any one who was thinking of the 4th starter frame to be one that has no damaging first ability.

Edit: On Topic, I nominate Banshee for the new starter frame.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Senpai-Pie

[Kestral9999]

Probably add in Rhino. I personally don't think others will fit just because the current line up lacks hp tanky character.

Mostly because the content at that point doesn't really require one. Rhino is easily accessible from Venus and I personally feel he should remain there.

[CataReverb]

I don't like the idea of warframe doing this to one up another game, especially when that game has a reputation as the worst RNG grind alive... that said, there's a few other reasons to do this.  Firstly, variety is always nice, and especially in a game with a default squad size of four, having more starting frames will help give the players a sense of the variety, and not too much to overwhelm 

 

Mag could stand to be replaced as well.  Why?  She's pulling double duty with Volt as an anti-corpus elemental focused caster with heavy shielding and light health-armor.  I personally also feel Mag could stand a bit of a rework while Volt seems about evenly balanced.

 

So switch her out for Saryn.  The Miasma nuke issue won't matter for beginning players, as you need corrupted mods to make it OP.

 

As for the fourth, why not Zephyr?  Sure she's rather new, but not too new anymore.  Also works as a good mirror to Volt as being obtained in the Tenno labs.

 

Why two frames with heavy defenses?  Well, three actually if you count Excalibur now that he got an armor buff:  It'll take the load off of players switching to Rhino on Venus when they hit the limit of how far "run forward and swing or fire" takes them.

 

Why not banshee? I just don't think that new players will have access to the mods that make banshee work well enough to impress them.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Arkinvas

[Kestral9999]

I don't like the idea of warframe doing this to one up another game, especially when that game has a reputation as the worst RNG grind alive... that said, there's a few other reasons to do this.  Firstly, variety is always nice, and especially in a game with a default squad size of four, having more starting frames will help give the players a sense of the variety, and not too much to overwhelm 

 

You, um... You got that the whole part in the spoiler was supposed to be a farcical joke, right?

 

Mag could stand to be replaced as well.  Why?  She's pulling double duty with Volt as an anti-corpus elemental focused caster with heavy shielding and light health-armor.  I personally also feel Mag could stand a bit of a rework while Volt seems about evenly balanced.

 

I personally find that Volt could use replacing more so than Mag. Yes, he's very well balanced, but that's in a general sense, not within the context of beginner content. Mag actually feels like a starting frame. Maybe this is just a bit of a bias but I chose Mag every time I started the game on a different platform (so 3/3 times) and always found her to be perfectly suited for earlier content without the use of heavy modding.

 

So switch her out for Saryn.  The Miasma nuke issue won't matter for beginning players, as you need corrupted mods to make it OP.

 

I don't think that's true, go into a mid tier mission with just Stretch and Intensify on and I think you'll find that Miasma is still very much OP.

 

As for the fourth, why not Zephyr?  Sure she's rather new, but not too new anymore.  Also works as a good mirror to Volt as being obtained in the Tenno labs.

 

Because Zephyr's first ability cannot be used to reliably kill enemies which is a requirement before you obtain weapons in the tutorial.

 

Why two frames with heavy defenses?  Well, three actually if you count Excalibur now that he got an armor buff:  It'll take the load off of players switching to Rhino on Venus when they hit the limit of how far "run forward and swing or fire" takes them.

 

I'm pretty sure that's the point of Rhino being so easily accessible, he needs to be for those players who want a more tanky frame.

 

Why not banshee? I just don't think that new players will have access to the mods that make banshee work well enough to impress them.

 

I simply disagree with this notion, but you're entitled to your opinion.

Replies in bold, I appreciate your feedback even if we disagree.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Kestral9999

[Gebunator]

How about.. Mesa?

 

(Cue raging)

 

No seriously.. What if the fourth starter was one of these ladies; Nova, Ember or Saryn?

Just slap a note on Nova/Ember to emphasis they trade survivability for fire power and may be more difficult to use than excalibur

 

And they have damagers as their first abilities, so no need to tweak the tutorial!

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

I think Nyx would be good for new players for two reasons:

 

1) Nyx was originally conceived as a female Excalibur

2) Good balance of attack and support skills

 

CAVEAT: If De chose to have a 4th starter and make her it, they would have to swap mind control and psychic bolts.  I think Psychic Bolts should be her 1 ability anyway.

 

Other options:

Frost: EXCELLENT attack and defensive abilities, not unlike Mag, but with Excal's armor

Hydroid: Same armor rating as Excal, damaging first ability, can be acquired on Earth where Vey Hek (one of Vor's rivals) is, anyway.

 

I think Ember is a good compromise as far as support vs. attack frame that is also a caster.  The fact that her fireball attack doesn't interrupt reloads would be a boon to new players, especially if they choose the Braton.

[CataReverb]

+You, um... You got that the whole part in the spoiler was supposed to be a farcical joke, right?

=Partially.  As bad as Warframe has it, I've heard that Destiny's even worse.

 

+I personally find that Volt could use replacing more so than Mag. Yes, he's very well balanced, but that's in a general sense, not within the context of beginner content. Mag actually feels like a starting frame. Maybe this is just a bit of a bias but I chose Mag every time I started the game on a different platform (so 3/3 times) and always found her to be perfectly suited for earlier content without the use of heavy modding.

=If we're doing a side-by-side of against Excalibur which will always be a starting frame then Mag, as fun as she might be, lags behind excal everywhere but with her first power in (its range.)  Moving Mag off of the starter list makes her more of a frame compared to Rhino as an early craftable frame, whom she compares better to in terms of power.

 

+I don't think that's true, go into a mid tier mission with just Stretch and Intensify on and I think you'll find that Miasma is still very much OP.

=The problem with that scenario is energy consumption and early RNG tables that make getting Intensify and Streamline (to use it 4/3's as often) don't make this seem like it'll happen often enough to be a problem.  Again, in comparison to Excal, Miasma without Fleeting Expertise isn't as amazing.

 

+Because Zephyr's first ability cannot be used to reliably kill enemies which is a requirement before you obtain weapons in the tutorial.

=It can.  It does slightly more or less damage than pull depending on how it's used.

 

+I'm pretty sure that's the point of Rhino being so easily accessible, he needs to be for those players who want a more tanky frame.

=Yes, but with more tanky frames available early, it'll feel less like "Use Rhino if you want to survive" and more like "Use Rhino if you prefer him" without making him obsolete 

 

+I simply disagree with this notion, but you're entitled to your opinion.//Replies in bold, I appreciate your feedback even if we disagree.

=Thanks for looking it over and giving me your thoughts on my reply.  It's nice to see someone disagree in the forums without acting rude about it.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Arkinvas

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Oberon

[Kestral9999]

+Partially.  As bad as Warframe has it, I've heard that Destiny's even worse.

=Well, it's got a lot less content for a AAA title than you'd expect when compared to a F2P game like Warframe. There are plenty of other flaws but that's definitely one of the distinguishing flaws of the game.

 

 

+If we're doing a side-by-side of against Excalibur which will always be a starting frame then Mag, as fun as she might be, lags behind excal everywhere but with her first power in (its range.)  Moving Mag off of the starter list makes her more of a frame compared to Rhino as an early craftable frame, whom she compares better to in terms of power.

=I can't really say that I disagree with you here. I just find that the starting lineup should definitely have at least one female support oriented frame and her shield polarize fits the bill in my opinion. I don't see an issue with her being on the roster but if there were someone (preferably female) who's more well suited for her role I'd be willing to concede to it.

 

+The problem with that scenario is energy consumption and early RNG tables that make getting Intensify and Streamline (to use it 4/3's as often) don't make this seem like it'll happen often enough to be a problem.  Again, in comparison to Excal, Miasma without Fleeting Expertise isn't as amazing.

=You've definitely got a point here. I just don't personally see Saryn as being a well suited starter. To this day I have a bit of trouble using her for anything other than Molt and Miasma. Her other two powers just don't work well with my playstyle, though that's not necessarily a reason to discount her.

 

+It can.  It does slightly more or less damage than pull depending on how it's used.

=Hm, I always assumed Tailwind did very little damage and was mostly used for knockdown. If it's got high enough base DPS to kill enemies, I don't see why she couldn't be in the running as well. I'll check her Wiki and add her to the OP if that's true.

 

+Yes, but with more tanky frames available early, it'll feel less like "Use Rhino if you want to survive" and more like "Use Rhino if you prefer him" without making him obsolete 

=Well, I honestly feel like him being on the first planet players actually have available will make him as easily accessible as he needs to be. We'll just have to agree to disagree here.

 

+Thanks for looking it over and giving me your thoughts on my reply.  It's nice to see someone disagree in the forums without acting rude about it.

=Hey, no problem. I appreciate that you took the time to offer your perspective on my suggestion without just making a single sentence reply regarding what frame you want in the lineup.

[zoboso]

What exactly do you mean by her not being viable because of the Vor's Prize quest? I'm assuming that's the quest you're referring to.

 

Think back to why Loki was removed (the first and last powers are unlocked luring the sequence before we get other weapons and the quest is dependent on those aforementioned powers doing damage.

[Kestral9999]

Think back to why Loki was removed (the first and last powers are unlocked luring the sequence before we get other weapons and the quest is dependent on those aforementioned powers doing damage.

Yeah, I got that. I've added it to the OP as a prerequisite for suggestions.