Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[(PSN)BY-51]

DE devs realize that everyone just equips serration split chamber by reflex and they do for good reason. It adds 4.5x ish damage. I think the original intent was for is to use many different mods. They wanted to encourage creativity...

Creativity pretty much went out the door with serration and split chamber. Of course this would tend to happen with any complete damage buff mod.

And, Pretty much, it gave us 2 less mod slots. All because those two mods are essential to even have fun in warframe.

In my opinion it adds complexity for the sake of complexity, (or ambiguity... anyways there's never an "ah ha!" Moment when equipping these mods) and ruins build diversity because everyone goes for/needs the damage to be legit.

Guns should not rely on any one mod to be legitimate. Real talk.

Gun damage should be more reliant on a players ability to

1. create a build suitable to their play style

2. Balance numbers in their build

3. Use the weapons accurately and effectively.

My solution is a new modding system. One that actually allows you to modify your gun. When players go to upgrade their weapon, a new menu will appear. One that allows you to select a barrel, a chamber, a trigger and magazine type.

The types of gun parts are based off of existing corrupted mods. Heavy caliber, Burdened mag, etc.

NOTE: People who have the mod will have it converted to a weapon part.

Barrels:

Shotguns: Sawed off(reduced range more damage greater spread), Duckbill (flat spread), Rifled (full choke), Smooth (regular)

Rifles:

Heavy barrel (caliber), Rifled, Flash hider, Silencer.

Snipers: Rifled, Heavy Barrel(caliber), muzzle brake, silencer.

Pistols:Heavy Caliber, Rifled, Snub-nose, silencer.

Chambers:

Shotguns:Buckshot chamber, Sabot chamber(full choke only)

Rifles: Single chamber, Split chamber(more multishot, ammo consumption, and recoil) Focus chamber.(able to focus 2 bullets into one(adding damage), adds focus, ammo consumption, recoil)

Snipers: Single, Split, Focus.

Pistols: Single, split, Focus.

Trigger: Select Fire, Regular fire.

Magazine: Burdened clip (more ammo per clip longer reload), Base magazine, light mags (faster reloads less ammo).

Edited September 17, 2015 by (PS4)BY-51

[Tahki]

I know the devs are saying the proposed changes to "mandatory mods" like multi shot and serration type mods are for build diversity. However, there's a large part of me that thinks it has a lot more to do with their desire to address enemy scaling by nerfing our damage, increasing grind, and possibly even worse.

I have a fairly simple solution if it truly is about MOD DIVERSITY and not to NERF AND TROLL THE COMMUNITY.

*Remove multishot and serration(hornet strike, pressure point, point blank) mods from the game and BUFF the damage of all the weapons in game.*

Yeah my hopes are they increase the damage of all weapons by the amount lost from maxxed out serration and split chamber and the status chance boom problem solved everyone is happy because now we truly do have some slots back but I think that some one will still complain either De themselves would be unhappy with the change because new players now don't have to work on getting maxed out high cost mods. Some tenno the ones who want the nerfs in the first place would complain because true nerfs didn't happen I often get the just wants to watch the world burn felling from these tenno.

[(PSN)theraputicGreen]

I know the devs are saying the proposed changes to "mandatory mods" like multi shot and serration type mods are for build diversity. However, there's a large part of me that thinks it has a lot more to do with their desire to address enemy scaling by nerfing our damage, increasing grind, and possibly even worse.

I have a fairly simple solution if it truly is about MOD DIVERSITY and not to NERF AND TROLL THE COMMUNITY.

*Remove multishot and serration(hornet strike, pressure point, point blank) mods from the game and BUFF the damage of all the weapons in game.*

By doing this, the devs could create more build diversity by freeing 2 mod slots. This solution would also not nerf our weapons into the ground. Scott said in a recent TENNO CLOCK YouTube video that he has ALL the weapons and their dps out on a spreadsheet. Take the percentage that serration and multishot add to each weapon, and add that percentage to the base damage of each weapon.

Another step should probably be taken by the devs if something like my proposal were implemented: SOME SORT OF COMPENSATION FOR LOST RESOURCES. This could be something like 20 complete legendary forma (which would change the polarity while leaving the weapon at level 30)...legendary cores...platinum...etc.

I believe this solution would address the mandatory mod and build diversity issue, but I fear that the devs aren't being entirely transparent with their intentions for this change.

Let me know what you all think.

Great point. though when i read that first part "to address enemy scaling by nerfing our damage, increasing grind, and possibly even worse." I immediately thought of earlier endgame.

[PiggyB]

Not going to stop people from using it. Will only lower ammo efficiency, and hurt weapons that have poor efficiency even more now.

 

Kinda need some ammo 2.0 so that we don't need -10- rifle ammo boxes for 1 soma clip, for example. Percentage based restores please.

Amazing idea

[Deejudanne]

Rip amprex since it needed this mod to be usefull in higher tiers and rip even more cuz it eats ammo

Edited September 18, 2015 by Deejudanne

[(PSN)The_CIROC_Boy]

RIP Amprex :(

[(PSN)Darkrya]

Well it's hard to say, I mean are they trying to make Warframe higher tier or lower tier, if they do nerf Multishot to just that (which is unlikely) without reworking the other mods and or weapons then it seems kinda pointless, I mean there's always going to be right and wrong builds, mandatory mods and unnecessary mods, serration makes it easier to mod weapons. Instead of changing something that is perfectly fine make other mods better at its jobs, make elemental mods, status and critical more useful.

[Burnthesteak87]

Well it's hard to say, I mean are they trying to make Warframe higher tier or lower tier, if they do nerf Multishot to just that (which is unlikely) without reworking the other mods and or weapons then it seems kinda pointless, I mean there's always going to be right and wrong builds, mandatory mods and unnecessary mods, serration makes it easier to mod weapons. Instead of changing something that is perfectly fine make other mods better at its jobs, make elemental mods, status and critical more useful.

You didn't get informed well before writing.

It's not a matter of "Serration makes it easier".

The problem is "There is no choice in Modding", all you have to do is build weapons ONLY for damage.

Be it because the Endless missions and the scaling requires so, be it because the Modding system is what it is.

Then why touching Serration and Multishot?

Mandatory mods (Serration, Elementals, Multishot, Criticals, etc) eat up every slot allowing no diversity nor leaving any space for other utility mods.

The objective DE seemed to be after was more build diversity.

A good example of balance was the Corrupted mods, allowing an higher buff at the cost of a debuff on another stat.

Giving Multishot a negative debuff was the first attempt they thought to make people choose more carefully.

Stop there. -Don't care for what toxic people say on forums about "DE claiming multishot not eating ammos has been a bug was an excuse... blah blah". These are all useless blabbers.

One thing is sure. They tried with Damage 2.0 to fix this problem. Probably next they will try to nail it definitively.

 

Edited October 6, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[tocorro]

You didn't get informed well before writing.

It's not a matter of "Serration makes it easier".

The problem is "There is no choice in Modding", all you have to do is build weapons ONLY for damage.

Be it because the Endless missions and the scaling requires so, be it because the Modding system is what it is.

Then why touching Serration and Multishot?

Mandatory mods (Serration, Elementals, Multishot, Criticals, etc) eat up every slot allowing no diversity nor leaving any space for other utility mods.

The objective DE seemed to be after was more build diversity.

A good example of balance was the Corrupted mods, allowing an higher buff at the cost of a debuff on another stat.

Giving Multishot a negative debuff was the first attempt they thought to make people choose more carefully.

Stop there. -Don't care for what toxic people say on forums about "DE claiming multishot not eating ammos has been a bug was an excuse... blah blah". These are all useless blabbers.

One thing is sure. They tried with Damage 2.0 to fix this problem. Probably next they will try to nail it definitively.

 

First and foremost inifnit scalling on enemy health, armor and damage should be adressed.

Cause U know, we NEED to stay in those endless missions to get prime parts, etc.

I have nothing against more skill based gameplay.

Would welcome a proper rework of all aspects of this problem.

Edited October 6, 2015 by tocorro

[Burnthesteak87]

First and foremost inifnit scalling on enemy health, armor and damage should be adressed.

Cause U know, we NEED to stay in those endless missions to get prime parts, etc.

I have nothing against more skill based gameplay.

Would welcome a proper rework of all aspects of this problem.

I've written it. I touched every single point of the real problem.

The enemy's armor and damage scaling isn't the main problem here. It's a secondary matter.

You're supposed to stay in those missions only for a limited number of minutes. Not for ever.

The actual enemy scaling is made so to intentionally force you out, that's how the game is made.

In Warframe you can build your best weapon for the max damage just to try withstanding the enemy scaling pressure, ripping off more minutes to stay in, but at a certain point that advantage won't be enough. That's how the game mode is.

If you would be supposed to stay in forever, also your own scaling should be active like enemies'.

Players don't scale, Enemies do. This is not a problem.

The point of the Mod Issue is powershifting all that +720% damage you get from your mods to some other feature (or to a single mod) and leaving the other slots to fix the wapon weaknesses or customizations.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Dragon398765]

 

 

The point is that it's mandatory. We're meant to have 8 slots, but all we have is the 6 after you put in multishot and serration.

 

Your point? There will always be mandatory mods. After the nerf you will have 5 slots instead of six, because you'll still need multishot's raw power. The problem isn't solved, it's exacerbated. 

The solution is to add corrupted mods that reduce or eliminate multishot in tradeoff for powerful buffs, in that way you are forced to choose. The same is true of serration: Mods that add huge bonuses at the cost of the baseline. Trade general power for specialized power, so to speak. This is how you add diversity, not by nerfing and applying bandaids. Add useful mods, and mandatory mods will see less necessity.

[(PSN)Gangalito]

Adding ammo consume on multishot will remove non-ammo efficient weapons from any kind of common usage.  It really all depends on what they're doing with the weapons in general.  Multishot is crucial in literally every build right now, same with serration or it's equivalent.  90% multishot literally increases the damage of the ENTIRE weapon (after mods are added in).  I.e. a fully modded weapon doing 5k damage with a 90% multishot on will be doing 9500 damage.  Strength wise, this is a HUGE difference.  Ammo inefficient weapons will fall out of usage because not using multishot will severely dampen ones ability to survive end-game content.  This effect will bleed in to the rest of the game.

 

A restructuring is in order.  Frankly I think they need to up weapon damage, remove serration and it's like, and remove multishot entirely.

 

With this however, the way for players to "build up" weapons will have to be shifted to mods that increase damage by a specific type (hellfire), but not at a flat rate across the board (serration).  It will be more focused on mods with specific damage types, like elemental and physical variants (fanged fusillade), status chance, crit chance, fire rate, reload speed, etc.  IMO this will give players more variation in their builds, while removing "required mods".  

[Jaruis]

Adding ammo consume on multishot will remove non-ammo efficient weapons from any kind of common usage.  It really all depends on what they're doing with the weapons in general.  Multishot is crucial in literally every build right now, same with serration or it's equivalent.  90% multishot literally increases the damage of the ENTIRE weapon (after mods are added in).  I.e. a fully modded weapon doing 5k damage with a 90% multishot on will be doing 9500 damage.  Strength wise, this is a HUGE difference.  Ammo inefficient weapons will fall out of usage because not using multishot will severely dampen ones ability to survive end-game content.  This effect will bleed in to the rest of the game.

 

A restructuring is in order.  Frankly I think they need to up weapon damage, remove serration and it's like, and remove multishot entirely.

 

With this however, the way for players to "build up" weapons will have to be shifted to mods that increase damage by a specific type (hellfire), but not at a flat rate across the board (serration).  It will be more focused on mods with specific damage types, like elemental and physical variants (fanged fusillade), status chance, crit chance, fire rate, reload speed, etc.  IMO this will give players more variation in their builds, while removing "required mods".

We need a lock

[Freelancer27]

Could be better if Multishot halves the damage per shot while Hitpoint/Shields escalations with Enemies are halved as well.

 

Armor should also be toned to a third or less of their current status, as it becomes a complete must for players to bring Corrosive Projection where the game encourages freedom to use your mods for your own playstyle.

[iuki.]

So basically, we will all be just using Mareloks and other single shot/massive dmg weapons b/c every thing else will run out of ammo. I can't say I am excited for this change. This means that the already small choice in viable end game weapons grows even smaller to 1-3 weapons at most. After readying this, I already know my soma P will become garbage and that is depressing. I don't actually like the V marelok for instance but I have to use it b/c it's the only side arm I have left that will actually kill a lvl 60+ mob and not run outa bullets in record time. And no, if I have to constantly use ammo pies/ammo mods to make a weapon marginally usuable...that weapon is trash imo.

Edited October 17, 2015 by fizbit

[ralifur]

The people saying weapons will be useless in high endgame gameplay due to this nerf. Do you guys use ammo replenishers? if not then i guess its time to get your recipes so you can craft a bunch and start spamming them like you do energy replenishers.

 

Fairly sure i also heard once that infinitely running defence/survival/whatever missions is not the main intended gameplay. They just allow for the possibility. Yes I know there are leaderboards so that goes against my argument but I honestly do believe 100% that i remember i read something or heard something from DE somewhere saying that infinitely running whatever endless mission endlessly was not intended as to be a huge thing but only something you could do as a choice.

 

Anyway despite those comments then yeah I suppose it can be considered nerfs but its probably part of DEs main goal in trying to balance out mods in weapons making other less useful mods more useful.

 

 

Personally feel like they shoulda done a different approach similar to exilus adapters and split mods in combat/damage mods and utility mods for weapons and give a fixed amount of slots for each instead of aiming directly at the mods.

 

"Edit" Oh and in before they add a new spaceship that drops an infinite ammo replenisher like we currently have the health one from the mantis (yes its infinite and heals so much faster than normal replenishers. :p)

Edited October 17, 2015 by ralifur

[iuki.]

Not going to waste more resources/credits than I get out of a mission by having to constantly drop ammo pies in order to make a weapon 'usuable', that's just...wasteful and not a viable option I am sorry. 

Edited October 17, 2015 by fizbit

[ralifur]

Not going to waste more resources than I get out of a mission by having to constantly drop ammo pies in order to make a weapon 'usuable', that's just...wasteful and not a viable option I am sorry. 

 

Depending on if im wrong about the second part i wrote or not. Aka in regards to DE not looking at infinity runs to be something thats supposed to be the main attraction then I can atleast say that pretty much everything else apart from infinity runs is doable without a multishot mod.

 

But again it all depends on however DE wants us to play the game. :-)

 

Who knows. Enemy scaling or what not might be a subject they will look at further down the line.

Edited October 17, 2015 by ralifur

[iuki.]

Every thing in this game that is not endless is a complete joke, even using sub standard weapons/frames. It's only in endless where I get any sense of challenge at all and this is why I like those modes more than any other. I get to kill 100s if not 1000s of enemies instead of regular missions where it's over in 2 mins or less without even firing a shot.

Edited October 17, 2015 by fizbit