Why Everyone Just Freaks Over The Multishot Balancing Ahead Of Time?

[(PSN)Draconis1981]

agh change its all over me get it of!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[-Sandman]

Balance + DE = Nerf

 

Rework + DE = Nerf

 

Anything else would require actual work. But what do I know, I'm only a noob. 

Edited September 7, 2015 by SandmanTT

[-N7-Leonhart]

Balance + DE = Nerf

 

No, it will be a buff.   /sarcasm

 

That is the point, to make multishot less desirable to use, not useless and not mandatory either.

 

Rework + DE = Nerf

 

Excalibur, Frost and the shotguns disagree.

Edited September 7, 2015 by -BM-StormVanguard

[-Sandman]

*temporary buff 

 

/fixed

[(PSN)ShadowLynx777]

No, it will be a buff. /sarcasm

That is the point, to make multishot less desirable to use, not useless and not mandatory either.

Excalibur, Frost and the shotguns disagree.

Face it, meta is something that's never going to stop in any game ever that has more than 1 thing in it. Why some frames are used more than others, because they're better. Why some weapons are used more than others, because they're better. Why some mods are mandatory, because they're better. Why punish people for using top tier stuff? Because it's good? Yeah that's the point! First multishot, then damage mods, later elements.

Your last point, I agree with that.

Edited September 7, 2015 by (PS4)ShadowLynx777

[-N7-Leonhart]

Face it, meta is something that's never going to stop in any game ever that has more than 1 thing in it. Why some frames are used more than others, because they're better. Why some weapons are used more than others, because they're better. Why some mods are mandatory, because they're better. Why punish people for using top tier stuff? Because it's good? Yeah that's the point! First multishot, then damage mods, later elements.

Your last point, I agree with that.

 

What Mesa? Mesa is not mandatory in any form or shape. It's a choice that players tend to make and quite frankly I only see Mesa these days on Sechura speed running.

 

You however have no choice with multishot. It will be there guaranteed as the 2nd mod you put on any ranged weapon. You might as well have it pre-installed in and only 6 slots available for semi-customizing.

[CY13ERPUNK]

my only concern with making multishot use up more ammo is that it is now functionally just turned into a better version of fire rate mods

 

since effectively now multishot at 100% is doubling the existing fire rate

 

but i have no problem with the increased ammo usage

[stoybot]

There's no alternative to the damage multishot provides, so people are better off slotting an ammo mutation mod to offset the increased ammo consumption. You'll end up with 1 additional mandatory mod and fire rate mods will be used even less. So less damage across the board and less modding variety. Does this seem like a good idea to you? Knowing DE, they'll just nerf the existing multishot mods and people will end up replacing them with other damage mods. If swapping one damage mod for another means variety to you, then I guess you'll be pretty happy with the change. Personally, I won't be.

[-N7-Leonhart]

my only concern with making multishot use up more ammo is that it is now functionally just turned into a better version of fire rate mods

 

since effectively now multishot at 100% is doubling the existing fire rate

 

but i have no problem with the increased ammo usage

 

100% increase? based on what info? That was one of my points, no one knows this kind of stuff for sure.

[Tyrian3k]

100% increase? based on what info? That was one of my points, no one knows this kind of stuff for sure.

 

And one of my points is that it doesn't really matter how much they increase ammo consumption. It won't work from my point of view.

 

If the increase in ammo consumption is less than the amount of multishot you gain, multishot is still way better than fire rate.

If the increase in ammo consumption is the same as the amount of multishot you gain, multishot is almost the same as fire rate.

If the increase in ammo consumption is more than the amount of multishot you gain, multishot is worse than fire rate.

 

The problem with fire rate and multishot is that they both essentially serve the same purpose: Firing more shots.

[Fifield]

There's no alternative to the damage multishot provides, so people are better off slotting an ammo mutation mod to offset the increased ammo consumption. You'll end up with 1 additional mandatory mod and fire rate mods will be used even less.

 

Exactly, but it will only be mandatory in endless missions and useless in non-endless missions.  This isn't choice, this is Modframe.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/523934-modframe-and-why-ordinary-nerfs-to-mandatory-mods-wont-increase-mod-variety/

 

Also, seems every alternate comment is talking about a different kind of nerf ie nerf to ammo vs nerf to magazine too.

[(PSN)ShadowLynx777]

What Mesa? Mesa is not mandatory in any form or shape. It's a choice that players tend to make and quite frankly I only see Mesa these days on Sechura speed running.

You however have no choice with multishot. It will be there guaranteed as the 2nd mod you put on any ranged weapon. You might as well have it pre-installed in and only 6 slots available for semi-customizing.

Meta not mesa.

Then even more reason to leave it alone.

There's no alternative to the damage multishot provides, so people are better off slotting an ammo mutation mod to offset the increased ammo consumption. You'll end up with 1 additional mandatory mod and fire rate mods will be used even less. So less damage across the board and less modding variety. Does this seem like a good idea to you? Knowing DE, they'll just nerf the existing multishot mods and people will end up replacing them with other damage mods. If swapping one damage mod for another means variety to you, then I guess you'll be pretty happy with the change. Personally, I won't be.

I'm so happy that someone else gets it. Thank you.

[-N7-Leonhart]

And one of my points is that it doesn't really matter how much they increase ammo consumption. It won't work from my point of view.

 

If the increase in ammo consumption is less than the amount of multishot you gain, multishot is still way better than fire rate.

If the increase in ammo consumption is the same as the amount of multishot you gain, multishot is almost the same as fire rate.

If the increase in ammo consumption is more than the amount of multishot you gain, multishot is worse than fire rate.

 

The problem with fire rate and multishot is that they both essentially serve the same purpose: Firing more shots.

 

There are many differences between multishot and fire rate.

 

Fire rate just makes the time between shots shorter, while multishot multiplies the same shot. So the charge weapons fire faster with fire rate, but hit twice as hard with multishot, so not the same thing at all. Burst and single shot weapons also get bigger damage per trigger pulls with multishot, firing rate only decreasing the pause between the shots themselves.

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

It's because we immediately saw the drawbacks of it and disliked it immensely. Especially after seeing how many weapons would now be made near useless. 

[(PSN)ShadowLynx777]

It's because we immediately saw the drawbacks of it and disliked it immensely. Especially after seeing how many weapons would now be made near useless.

Thank you. See, that's one of the issues, less weapon diversity.

[Fifield]

It's because we immediately saw the drawbacks of it and disliked it immensely. Especially after seeing how many weapons would now be made near useless. 

 

You didn't understand it then.

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

Because DE is actively working on this right now.

 

There's no use discussing the possible changes afterwards, because by then it will be too late.

 

It's the same reason people start talking about the next prime frame the moment one comes out.

Basically this.

You didn't understand it then.

What isn't there to understand?

They stated in no uncertain terms that they want multishot to consume ammo!

 

What is so hard to understand about that?

 

Oh and I assume you are SO much more informed than I am about it! /s

[vaugahn]

They stated in no uncertain terms that they want multishot to consume ammo!

 

They also stated in no uncertain terms they'd be revisiting a lot of weapons to make sure the mod doesn't selectively nerf certain weapon archetypes into oblivion.

 

That said, they need to release some details about the rest of what they're doing. This multishot change would make a lot more sense with some context.

[(PSN)ShadowLynx777]

They also stated in no uncertain terms they'd be revisiting a lot of weapons to make sure the mod doesn't selectively nerf certain weapon archetypes into oblivion.

Really? When during the dev stream? Time stamp please?

Because I saw it and they're doing the complete opposite of what you said in this ^ point.

According to them, "I can't think of a weapon that has an ammo problem" - DE Rebecca, as the rest of then agree. That's why I don't trust them.

[Fifield]

They stated in no uncertain terms that they want multishot to consume ammo!

 

What is so hard to understand about that?

 

Maybe you're just oblivious to ammo mutation mods?

[(PSN)ShadowLynx777]

Maybe you're just oblivious to ammo mutation mods?

So more mandatory mods, yeah that's the solution.

[vaugahn]

Really? When during the dev stream? Time stamp please?

Because I saw it and they're doing the complete opposite of what you said in this ^ point.

According to them, "I can't think of a weapon that has an ammo problem" - DE Rebecca, as the rest of then agree. That's why I don't trust them.

 

From today's devstream overview:

 

Mandatory Damage Mods

· We recognize that mods like Serration or multishot Mods are somewhat mandatory, and so we've started to look at Mods that increase damage to make choosing these Mods more meaningful.

· One example we're looking at is to have multishot Mods increase ammo consumption, giving players a double edged sword to work with. Please note that this discussion occurred without any testing or work being done on the matter yet, the discussion was rather candid.

Our goal isn't to make these damage Mods 'unattractive' or impossible to use, but to make them less of an obvious go-to. Part of that means reworking the Mods to provide a greater risk and reward, but a large portion of that means revisiting the damage and scaling of our weapons as they currently stand.

We are very aware of the current state our Mod system and the 'mandatory Mods' that both enable players to participate in high-level Missions and hinder total weapon customization. Expect more information on the rebalancing of weapon DPS, weapon leveling, and 'mandatory Mods' in the near future.

[(PSN)ShadowLynx777]

From today's devstream overview:

Well then it's DE's specialty, back tracking when they screw up.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

The reason players are raging is because they see things from a player's perspective. They want the most power. They want to be as strong as possible, since the entire purpose of the progression system is to make yourself as strong as possible. Players will eat all the cookies they can get their hands on with no fear of diabetes. If you look at things from a designer's perspective, you might realize that some spinach every now and again is significantly less lethal.

[Fifield]

Really? When during the dev stream? Time stamp please?

Because I saw it and they're doing the complete opposite of what you said in this ^ point.

According to them, "I can't think of a weapon that has an ammo problem" - DE Rebecca, as the rest of then agree. That's why I don't trust them.

 

Wrong.  Rebecca said "I'm trying to think of what guns I ever had an ammo problem with, and it's like none."

Then Glen said "Synoid is a hungry little girl."

Prior to that, Glen said about the multishot rework:

"It's a nightmare because you're going to have to rebalance a lot of guns."

Now in another thread you portrayed yourself as a professional developer.  I have to say that publicly misrepresenting the developers of a game you play, when it's so frigging easy to check, is pretty unprofessional, 

Edited September 9, 2015 by Fifield