Modframe And Why Ordinary Nerfs To Mandatory Mods Won't Increase Mod Variety

[Fifield]

Multishot mods, even if they used double the ammo (from your pool rather than your magazine) are still vastly better than any mod you can replace them with.

 

The reason is that the mod that you'd potentially replace multishot with is the 9th best mod for that weapon.  It's something like Bane of Grineer.

So unless multishot mods are nerfed to the level of Bane of Grineer*, we're still going to be using multishot.

 

Another way to think about it is that the following demonstrates the value of your first 8 mods on a non-crit, non-status rifle mod:

1. 165 (Serration)

2. ~120 (Heavy Caliber)

3. ~100 (First elemental mod - hopefully bonuses against enemies)

4. ~100  (Second elemental mod -- viral/corrosive make up for diminishing returns)

5. 90 (Split Chamber)

6. ~45 (Shred)

7. 32 (Third elemental mod & seriously diminishing returns)

8. 24 (Fourth elemental mod or Bane of Grineer or Viral Acceleration etc)

 

So Split Chamber has to be nerfed about 75% to increase mod variety amongst players who know what they're doing.

*Alternatively, all non elemental mods could be buffed to the equivalent of +45% damage which would mean a mere 50% nerf.

 

Yes, and the cases for Serration and Heavy Caliber nerfs increasing mod variety are even worse.

 

-------------------------

 

So what will the multishot nerf do?

 

In normal missions, you won't run out of ammo.  In endless missions past 20, you will.  We will actually have to swap our least useful mod for ammo mutation.

 

Actually in 40+ Defence missions, it'll be too dangerous to venture out of the globe far and ammo pads will be necessary.

 

The following thread goes more into the maths:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/523703-multishot-nerf-and-3-elemental-damage-mods-the-maths/

 

Now, for all my useable weapons, I have 2 builds: viral, corrosive.  But we only get 3.  So we can have the 3rd be viral/ammo mutation.  But what about corrosive/ammo mutation.  What do we do when we need magnetic/gas?

 

Welcome to ModFrame, where you spend more time fiddling with mods than you do playing the actual game.

 

Obviously 5 weapon configurations would alleviate this until Serration, Heavy Caliber and equivalents get the same treatment.

 

Here's an idea: partial mod configurations:

 

Partial mod configurations change 1-8 mods at a time.  With buttons, you can switch your weapon into viral or corrosive or magnetic or gas... without necessarily changing whether you have ammo mutation, Shred, Life Strike etc.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Fifield

[AdunSaveMe]

In normal missions, you won't run out of ammo.  In endless missions past 20, you will. 

Don't forget ammo rebalancing will be done to account for it. I don't doubt they've considered the issue.

[DiabolusUrsus]

This is going to continue to be a problem for as long as mods are what make weapons usable. 

[7grims]

Shorter answer:

Because multishot alone is not gonna solve all the serration problematic, nor the rest of the mandatory damage mods.

 

 

 

 

Pretty much just like the exilus slot did jack sh*t on creating builds diversity.

Edited September 6, 2015 by 7grims

[(PSN)Pharen]

Don't forget ammo rebalancing will be done to account for it. I don't doubt they've considered the issue.

And it will likely be a bandaid patch such as increasing ammo pool and clip size. Which will solve nothing.

[Unholyrequiem]

The simple answer is that Multi-shot is only part of the problem

 

Armour scales against damage too high rendering non-armour piercing weapons obsolete.  The solution? A bloody band aid. Corrosive projection something that renders weapons designed to beat armour less effective than weapons that are to kill enemies without armour. Yes that's right slash and puncture. You know what damage type is still bad in both cases? IMPACT.

 

When people talk about more viable mods they talk about fast hands, speed trigger, shred etc as some sort of variety to fill the power gap when Multishot is nerfed. Well let me tell you guys that these mods are very well used on many builds, the fact that speed trigger might replace split chamber on many frames means another mod has found permanent residency as a top used mod. 

 

Oh wait? What's that? There are other mods that aren't being used? What?! 

 

Did the whole community seriously forget about the fact that dual stat mods, magnum force, hammershot, mods that add puncture, impact and slash are all obsoleted by speed trigger, fast hands, dual elements. are replaced by element mods? What does that mean? Mod variety? NO!

 

This means that Multishot hardly contributed to any kind of crisis in the mod system and that the only crisis can be resolved within the damage system itself.

[Fifield]

This is going to continue to be a problem for as long as mods are what make weapons usable. 

 

As I stated, by buffing all mods to be as viable as say Shred, they can increase variety significantly at the lower end for the last 3 slots (4 on pistols).   On non-crit weapons at least.

 

Added a partial configuration idea to the original post that should enable a bit more mod variety without turning the game into ModFrame

Edited September 6, 2015 by Fifield

[Fifield]

Don't forget ammo rebalancing will be done to account for it. I don't doubt they've considered the issue.

 

Yes, I'm trying to inform DE what the parameters are.

 

If this is solely for variety, forget about it -- unless you're prepared to nerf the damage to 45% (or compensatory balance).

 

If this is to bring bows and guns up whilst making the game harder, great... but you probably don't want to mess with ammo.  Make it like a corrupted damage/mag capacity mod eg +90% damage / -50% mag capacity (no increased ammo consumption).

If you want to bring it down to Shred level, +70% damage / -50% mag capacity 

Edited September 6, 2015 by Fifield

[DiabolusUrsus]

As I stated, by buffing all mods to be as viable as say Shred, they can increase variety significantly at the lower end for the last 3 slots (4 on pistols).   On non-crit weapons at least.

 

Added a partial configuration idea to the original post that should enable a bit more mod variety without turning the game into ModFrame

 

No. There is no build variety because mods make too much of a difference. You NEED certain mods for a weapon to perform decently, and the rest of the mods are usually only applicable to certain types of weapons (like crit weapons.) Simply buffing all the mods that people already don't use isn't going to make them abandon mods that already work for them unless they are statistically superior... at which point you have power creep in the name of "variety." 

 

Why does it matter that there is no build variety? Why do we care? It's not like there is some significant difference between the feel of using a Braton built for crits and puncture damage and one using a radiation-viral loadout beyond "one works and the other one doesn't." 

 

As long as elemental mods are NECESSARY for faction-specific viability and as long as all of our weapon damage scaling comes from MODS, mods cannot be used as tools for customization. The reason build homogeny bugs us is that we've been told that mods are for customizing; that we have a CHOICE when it comes to how to be effective. The problem is that our choice is not HOW to be effective, it is whether or not we ARE effective. 

 

Weapons need to scale their stats naturally, mods need to be nerfed, and we need more mods that do things other than increase our damage output. 

[Fifield]

I largely agree with you.

 

No. There is no build variety because mods make too much of a difference. You NEED certain mods for a weapon to perform decently, and the rest of the mods are usually only applicable to certain types of weapons (like crit weapons.) Simply buffing all the mods that people already don't use isn't going to make them abandon mods that already work for them unless they are statistically superior... at which point you have power creep in the name of "variety." 

 

If all mods were balanced around the +45% damage/Shred mark, yes, a lot of players wouldn't use the new ones or anything different.  That's their perogative but I think a game developer has the job of encouraging players to find more fun and interesting styles of play.

 

DE could make them slightly OP then nerf them later.  This is almost expected in MOBA so it's perfectly feasible.

 

But I've demonstrated that there's an upper limit on mod variety.  I'm not even advocating more mod variety.  I'm warning DE about how they've been misled by the community into thinking mod variety will result from less-than-massive nerfs to mandatory mods.

 

Why does it matter that there is no build variety? Why do we care? It's not like there is some significant difference between the feel of using a Braton built for crits and puncture damage and one using a radiation-viral loadout beyond "one works and the other one doesn't." 

 

Quite right and I've raised the point repeatedly over the last 5 months.  Most mods don't change the feel of the game.  Interestingly, it's the Exilus mods that do so more.

 

As long as elemental mods are NECESSARY for faction-specific viability and as long as all of our weapon damage scaling comes from MODS, mods cannot be used as tools for customization. The reason build homogeny bugs us is that we've been told that mods are for customizing; that we have a CHOICE when it comes to how to be effective. The problem is that our choice is not HOW to be effective, it is whether or not we ARE effective. 

 

Like endless mastery fodder guns, mods are provided in lieu of content.  Many players play Warframe like it's Pokemon -- gotta get em all.

 

That's a minigame that I wouldn't want to take away from players.

 

But most of us don't want ModFrame.  It's OK to spend 20 mins building mods configuration on everything for an event but we don't that to be necessary for every mission.

 

Weapons need to scale their stats naturally, mods need to be nerfed, and we need more mods that do things other than increase our damage output. 

 

DE might be looking at a large overhaul of the mods system.  If so, I'd make two additional suggestions:

 

1. Weapons and frames start at 30 capacity.  This limits Modframing as we level them.  Also, weapons scale from a third or half damage to full damage as they level to 30.  This provides proper scaling whilst still allowing players to level their weapons.

 

2. Exilus slots are something of a success.  Give us two of them on frames but also weapons.  Take away 1 or 2 full slots if necessary.

[Burnthesteak87]

On other topics has been highlighted that the real problem with modding is "players just do it to reach MAXIMUM DAMAGE".
This happens because the mod system allows it and the endless enemy scaling in endless missions requires it.

Some solutions:

• Powershifting: move all the damage buff to a single mod (Serration) from Elemental mods, Crit and whatever messes with damage increase;
  this would anyway mess with how the elemental damage conversion would be counted, since the actual system is accumulative.​
• declare that just 2-3 specialized slots ala Exilus can contain damage mods;
• declare an Hard Cap on damage similar to how Power Efficency works. Allowing eventually Corrupted mods to bypass it, or not, depending on the circumstances.​

Multishot used to raise DPS is a part of the problem, it should have a valuable alternative, which at the moment would be exactly as it is working with Status proc uptime.
Additional ammo drain isn't a problem (it never have been) if DE would finally decide to rework Ammos into a valid feature, over than shiny drops on the ground just accumulating because they've no real use. (Ammo lacking pressure, recharge percentage of clip, ammo supplies every tot defense waves, etc.)
Another nice idea would be having the ammo drain from multishot (speculated in the devstream) "hitting" directly the total ammo stack instead than the magazine.

Just for the sake of idea sharing and since there is some constructive feedback, take a look at this thread too:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/523087-now-is-the-time-to-change-damage-mods-and-scaling/?p=5855606
 

Edited September 8, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[CrystalRibbon]

Agreed, 

Changing/nerfing Multishot will just create another "mandatory" mod that must be equipped to reach " Maximum Damage" for high leveled enemies in endless enemy scaling within endless missions and other special enemies.

 

We will just have an endless loop of "Nerf/Remove Mandatory Mods" unless the real problems are solved. Might as well remove/replace the mod system completely if this keeps up and the real problems are not solved.

Edited September 8, 2015 by CrystalRibbon

[Wooffgang]

They would have to remake the whole game to solve this problem to be honest.

 

That means:

 

-Fixing enemy scaling

-Adjusting damage system

-Balance out Mod System

-Rework all existing weapons

-Adjust Warframe Powers

 

There only thing stopping you from enjoying the game is reason.The player focus in warframe is dedicated on farming and endgame maxing mostly, aka you live in the Void. The real reason this is even a thing is because Warframe=Endless missions. Like I honestly do not run any other sort of content unless I absolutely have to. I have not run a single standard exterminate or w/e the hell you can think of missions since I finished the Star chart. Why? - I have no bloody reason to do it. Like in the past I used to do the bosses occasionally but now that Dark Sectors exist... meh...

Even after you finish farming your frames. The only thing that could bring you back to a boss encounter is a friend that needs that frame/Rare resouce drop (useless).

 

PS:Beta

Microsoft Windows

March 25, 2013

-Uhm.. Now

[Burnthesteak87]

Can we stay on topic? Venting unsatisfaction on one of the few constructive threads nowdays is so...

Edited September 8, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Fifield]

On other topics has been highlighted that the real problem with modding is "players just do it to reach MAXIMUM DAMAGE".

This happens because the mod system allows it and the endless enemy scaling in endless missions requires it.

 

Also because it's too much hassle to fit 'Quality of Life' mods when we're running level 12 missions.

 

• Powershifting: move all the damage buff to a single mod (Serration) from Elemental mods, Crit and whatever messes with damage increase;

  this would anyway mess with how the elemental damage conversion would be counted, since the actual system is accumulative.​

 

I think crits have to stay separate.  There's a case for removing Split Chamber from the game, returning cores, adding around 60% damage into Serration and making it gold.  Obviously, its rank should be reducted in accordance with cores fused.

 

Why it this?  Because rifles have 1 more 'mandatory' mod than the other weapons: Shred.

Alternatively, Shred could be nerfed.

 

Unintuitively, If we want mod variety, we need to start at the lower end.  It's a much smaller nerf to make Shred optional than it is to make Serration et al optional.  All (?) unused mods need to be buffed to be the equivalent of ~25% damage and Shred nerfed around 40% to that level.

 

• declare that just 2-3 specialized slots ala Exilus can contain damage mods;

 

I presume you mean can't contain dmg mods

 

Assuming you make it 6/2 normal/exilus, you completely screw up all crit primaries -- unless we;re talking about adding slots and I don't see why we would.

 

• declare an Hard Cap on damage similar to how Power Efficency works. Allowing eventually Corrupted mods to bypass it, or not, depending on the circumstances.​

 

I think this would break one of the main appeals of Warframe: feeling powerful, as well as mini-maxing.

 

Additional ammo drain isn't a problem (it never have been) if DE would finally decide to rework Ammos into a valid feature, over than shiny drops on the ground just accumulating because they've no real use. (Ammo lacking pressure, recharge percentage of clip, ammo supplies every tot defense waves, etc.)

Another nice idea would be having the ammo drain from multishot (speculated in the devstream) "hitting" directly the total ammo stack instead than the magazine.

 

I assume that the latter is what they intended, as they didn't mention anything about magazines.

 

I don't think it's a good idea to mess with ammo significantly.  Running out of ammo isn't a great way to lose a mission (though better than your Frost forgetting to Globe, your Loki forgetting to Disarm, some random stepping off a pad etc).  I don't think ammo restores should even be in the game, not even for solo players.  Ammo should be a pressure only for those who burst 20 rounds into an enemy who dies in 2.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Fifield

[Tyrian3k]

The problem is that DE has made the mod system in a way that allows us to stack damage indefinitely, never telling us to choose.

Why would I choose between A or B when I can have A and B at the same time with no penalty?

With Damage 2.0, DE wanted to get rid of rainbow builds. Did they accomplish that?

Well, in theory, no one can mod all elements at once any more, but the real problem was always that people just filled their weapons with damage mods, resulting in a rainbow build.

In other words: Rainbow builds were merely a symptom of the actual problem and the actual problem is still the same.

Instead of having fire+freeze+electric+armor piercing, we now have e.g. Radiation+Viral, which consists of four mods as well. Only difference is that armor piercing mods were removed and toxin mods added to replace them.

Using different combinations for different factions merely gives an illusion of choice since you'll always use the same combinations against the same factions.

In my eyes, +%basedamage and +%multishot should just be removed. All they really do is bloat numbers without even giving any variation.

There is no notable difference between dealing 100 damage against an enemy with 1000 life compared to dealing 500 damage against one with 5000 life, is there?

For elemental mods I can think of two solutions:

Solution A:

They (partially) change the weapon's damage type, but add no damage. In turn, the modifiers of elements will be adjusted, giving each one very pronounced strengths and weaknesses.

Note: for this, all elements should be individual mods and no longer be combinations.

Multiple elements will be good against every individual faction, but focus on different enemies within that faction in the same way that corrosive and radiation both work well against Grineer, but against different enemies within that faction.

We could for example have the choice to use viral, radiation or corrosive against Grineer. The focus of the damage types stays the same:

Viral against cloned flesh, giving it a good boost against most of the Grineer enemies. (e.g. +100% bonus against all enemies on average)

Corrosive has a massive boost against targets using ferrite armor while only providing decent damage against alloy armor. (e.g. +200% bonus against ferrite, but onl, +50% bonus against alloy)

Radiation would work analogue to corrosive, but with the bonuses swapped.

Solution B:

Diminishing returns with pronounced elemental modifiers.

Note: Elemental mods could be nerfed in strength for this.

First of all you can only equip one mod per element. No stacking one element to oblivion.

Multiple combined elements can be effective against one faction,but those combined elements are mutually exclusive in the same way you cannot run radiation+corrosive.

This combined element usually has a very significant modifier against a faction. My suggestion would be a modifier of at least +100% on average, maybe even more.

Single elements are relatively balanced, giving about the damage indicated against most targets with bonuses that are comparably small to the first combined element and in total average at about 0.

The combined element you can make with the two elements not used in the first one always has a negative modifier against the faction, dealing about 60% of the damage on average.

On a weapon with 100 base damage and with our current elemental mod strength that would mean that we have 360 damage from combined element A and then have the choice to add 90 damage from a single element or 108 damage from combined element B.

Example: You fight Corpus and use Magnetic which deals a whopping 325% damage against shields, 175% damage against robotics and 100% against flesh.

Then, you add fire damage, which deals 75% damage against shields, but 125% damage against flesh while dealing 100% against robotics.

You could now choose to combine into gas now, but gas happens to be terrible against anything but flesh, dealing only 20% damage against shields, 30% against robotics and 130% against flesh.

I don't know what I'd do with the physical damage types yet. Maybe the damage modifiers could stack or the bullets have different properties depending on the physical damage type.

One thing is certain: We should have only one mod for those, not two.

Either keep Sweeping Serration or Shredder etc. Having both is stupid and pointless.

Great... now I wrote way more than I originally wanted to... probably because the mod system has been bothering me for such a long time now.

[CrystalRibbon]

looks like DE acknowledges the the problems.

https://twitter.com/GooseDE/status/641274057464389632

[Fifield]

Yes, I guess this massive rework won't be coming any time soon.  It wil lprobably delay Update 18 and the new star map.