About Multishot Changes

[JohnKable]

Hi everyone!

 

yes, multishot rework has been a pretty hot topic lately. And i wanted to open a completely new post to point out some things.

Multishot needed a rework, because the multishot mods are one of the cheapest way to highly increase DPS with no downside at all. Along with multishot mods we have Serration, P.point blank and Hornet strike.

I feel the second kind of "pure damage mods" are quite fine. They are 1 for each weapon and r10 mods (one is legendary).
I feel that 1 mandatory mod in 8 slots is pretty fine, and its 10 rank give some kind of "progression" feeling. Im totally fine with those to stay as they are.

 

Now lets focus on other damage mods with no downsides:

-- Elemental mods: yes, those are pretty mandatory too, but theyr damage boost isnt even close as the multishot or pure damage ones. it forces you to add elemental damage with its slight bonuses and downsides and contributes in minor part to build diversity.

 

--Element+ Effect: same as elemental mods, still no real downside. lesser damage boost but contrubute to enable the "status mechanic" that is pretty nice in this game.  

 

--Crit mods: just a straight damage increase on weps with 15% or more of critical chance. these are borderline. i mean, those are not for all weapons, but on some can give an insane damage boost with no downside.
But still, quite necessary for build diversity.

in fact there will be ever some mandatory mods unless DE is going to rework completely damages and enemy scaling. probably it would be much healthier with a PVP-like system of mods, but the one we have now isnt bad a some try to picture it.

IMHO multishot mods should just consume some ammos from reserve. like 1/3 of the extra shot made. Example: Split chamber +90% multishot +30% ammos drained from ammo pool.

So they will still be a straight damage upgrade but without a downside that totally cripples the mod or that is just another simple RoF mod. And this way will force some build diversity on weps with low ammo pools and yet having a downside perceptible on weps with larger ammo pools.

 

That would force the usage of vacuum more than ever, but thats another topic. On that, as many others, i just think any frame and companion should have an innate vacuum effect with carrier having just a much bigger one.

 

 

if this topic is too much, i just apologize and ask if it can be merged with a bigger one.

[(PSN)EvilFlowerChild]

Not to be rude or anything, but listen the multi shot thread are taking up majority of the forum, it is annoying to log in wanting to have a nice chat with people on different threads about different topics, but it is almost impossible as of now, there's a megathread about multishot stick to that. Thanks

[My_Brain_Trembles]

The very second i see that multishot takes on a nerf i am uninstalling. I don't care what you "try" to replace multishot with, literally nothing can compare. Multishot is a must as it stands and once it consumes more ammo on proc it will effectively kill nearly all of our decent to good weapons. Tonkor, Glaxion, Vectis prime, Supra, Synapse, Phage (barely holding on because of that ammo efficiency) and don't even get me started on secondaries. Most of them are half decent as it stands due to how many are just ammo chewing monsters (especially the SG after that ridiculous nerf). If they don't provide some form of mega buff to every weapon when they apply this patch i'm officially done. The only weapons people will use after that will be those with massive ammo capacity and amazing efficiency like the Opticor.

 

You know what really irritates me about this though? The fact that nearly everyone that has decent time in the game has most of those decent to good weapons and spent time placing 4+ forma on all of them. The moment this hits it will kill most of those weapons as being viable even for mid game.

 

Also, stop giving DE more nerfing ideas. Why would you want to nerf more mods when we are already extremely weak compared to what we use to be? Enemies continue to get stronger while we tenno are simply twiddling our thumbs and taking it in the arse with the nerfs to our weapons and frames.

[Kinetos]

Which is why they never were going to "just" nerf Multishot, but since the stream and feedback they will be looking at the entire system. I expect Weapons /Damagel/Scaling 3.0, not a few nerfed mods.

[(PSN)Eluminary]

Which is why they never were going to "just" nerf Multishot, but since the stream and feedback they will be looking at the entire system. I expect Weapons /Damagel/Scaling 3.0, not a few nerfed mods.

Yeah I watch the dev stream they kinda made it out to seem like it's not going to be a big deal they do some minor weaponry rebalancing everything will be okay. it didn't seem they knew exactly how bad the game Would be effected and how much rebalanceing they need to do to make up for it. The major backlash was needed to at least make them more aware, and be more careful with this change th an they might have been without it

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

Not to be rude or anything, but listen the multi shot thread are taking up majority of the forum, it is annoying to log in wanting to have a nice chat with people on different threads about different topics, but it is almost impossible as of now, there's a megathread about multishot stick to that. Thanks

Yes, but the OP thought his point deserved more attention and you gave it to him. XD

[My_Brain_Trembles]

Which is why they never were going to "just" nerf Multishot, but since the stream and feedback they will be looking at the entire system. I expect Weapons /Damagel/Scaling 3.0, not a few nerfed mods.

 

The issue with that being that when they release dmg 3.0 they will be removing pure dmg mods. (Serration, Hornet Strike and Point Blank/Primed)

I'm sure they will somewhat buff the dmg on all the weapons and increase mastery requirements when they do but for them to also nerf multishot by forcing ammo consumption on all weapons will still count as a major blow to players unless they legitimately quadruple the base dmg of every weapon in the game as well as increase mag/clip size for compensation on ammo loss. 

[Thumper3]

The very second i see that multishot takes on a nerf i am uninstalling.

 

Why wait?  You know it's coming.

 

Seriously, all this angst and tears over what is really just a correction of a bug, not a "nerf".  Making extra shots use extra ammo.....just logical, it's how I thought it worked when I first started using one.  The benefit is in higher DPS, not in free ammo.

[Blue_Robot]

It's actually about time DE started changing things up regarding damage mods.

 

The fact that Multishot, and even Serration (and its counterparts), are mandatory in virtually ANY build limits the player's weapon customization. Weapons have a total of 8 slots, and 2 of those slots are automatically consumed by the said essential damage upgrades. You might as well reduce the weapon slots to 6 and have every weapon in the game automatically have damage% and multishot in effect.

 

Once multishot gets toned down to its intended function (consuming ammo on extra shots or something else), players will have the freedom to choose whether to use it or install another mod instead.

 

Once this is done, I hope DE does something about Serration and its other equivalent mods.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

It's actually about time DE started changing things up regarding damage mods.

 

The fact that Multishot, and even Serration (and its counterparts), are mandatory in virtually ANY build limits the player's weapon customization. Weapons have a total of 8 slots, and 2 of those slots are automatically consumed by the said essential damage upgrades. You might as well reduce the weapon slots to 6 and have every weapon in the game automatically have damage% and multishot in effect.

 

Once multishot gets toned down to its intended function (consuming ammo on extra shots or something else), players will have the freedom to choose whether to use it or install another mod instead.

 

Once this is done, I hope DE does something about Serration and its other equivalent mods.

Yah so more slots would solve the issue too.

I hope they don't remove R10 damage mods, because this is a third person shooter with RPG elements. Ranking up those mods are an integral part of this game's progression and a rite of passage for us Tenno.

I mean... It's not like we have more nodes to unlock or new quests/raids to conquer every week. Collecting mods, cosmetics, weapons, warframes, modding our gear, ranking up, etc is what we do in Warframe.

[My_Brain_Trembles]

Why wait?  You know it's coming.

 

Seriously, all this angst and tears over what is really just a correction of a bug, not a "nerf".  Making extra shots use extra ammo.....just logical, it's how I thought it worked when I first started using one.  The benefit is in higher DPS, not in free ammo.

 

Easy because i still enjoy using a variety of weapons. When multishot starts consuming ammo it will be no better than a speed trigger or any other mod that increases fire rate. In essence it will be worse. Do you know why experienced users don't use those and use multishot instead? Because it saves ammo and doubles, triples or quadruples our dps (depending on the amount of multishot) while still keeping a great number of weapons ammo efficient. Once this is done it will kill many of the weapons we have worked on (+ all the 24hr waits for each of our forma).

 

It's actually about time DE started changing things up regarding damage mods.

 

The fact that Multishot, and even Serration (and its counterparts), are mandatory in virtually ANY build limits the player's weapon customization. Weapons have a total of 8 slots, and 2 of those slots are automatically consumed by the said essential damage upgrades. You might as well reduce the weapon slots to 6 and have every weapon in the game automatically have damage% and multishot in effect.

 

Once multishot gets toned down to its intended function (consuming ammo on extra shots or something else), players will have the freedom to choose whether to use it or install another mod instead.

 

Once this is done, I hope DE does something about Serration and its other equivalent mods.

 

No. What is limiting us is the fact that so many of the weapons are useless. Their dmg or CC ability is completely outclassed from the start leaving the players with few options for endgame/high tier weapons. If this wasn't the case then we would already be using every weapon in the game with the current proper builds. In essence even when we no longer have them available or when the mods are nerfed many of the weapons will still be trash because DE refuses to buff them and continues to nerf the higher tier weapons to make it "seem" ballanced but in truth we are always using the same glass cannon weapons so that we can survive the high tier missions (otherwise we would die early on as we couldn't kill the enemies fast enough or run out of ammo like most of the trash secondaries).

Edited September 12, 2015 by shinigamiscall

[Blue_Robot]

No. What is limiting us is the fact that so many of the weapons are useless. Their dmg or CC ability is completely outclassed from the start leaving the players with few options for endgame/high tier weapons. If this wasn't the case then we would already be using every weapon in the game with the current proper builds. In essence even when we no longer have them available or when the mods are nerfed many of the weapons will still be trash because DE refuses to buff them and continues to nerf the higher tier weapons to make it "seem" ballanced but in truth we are always using the same glass cannon weapons so that we can survive the high tier missions (otherwise we would die early on as we couldn't kill the enemies fast enough or run out of ammo like most of the trash secondaries).

 

Exactly how do many of the weapons being useless limit the player's weapon customization? That's an entirely different problem.

 

If you read what I said, I was talking about weapon customization, and both multishot and damage mods are a problem regarding build options, thus hurting the game. DE knows this, and even if some players threaten to leave, or do leave once the patch rolls out, the game will still move on, given the game's popularity right now. New players will be introduced to a then more balanced game mechanic, and they won't have to go through the mandatory "Serration + split chamber" mods. They will, by then, have options.

 

Besides, I don't know why people automatically treat it as a "nerf" even though the patch hasn't come out yet. It's obvious that DE is looking for ways to balance out the change, otherwise, it would have arrived way, way earlier.

Yah so more slots would solve the issue too.

 

Wasn't talking about the lack of slots. I was referring to the issue that it feels like 2 out of the 8 weapon slots are pointless, since we all know what goes in them.

[My_Brain_Trembles]

Exactly how do many of the weapons being useless limit the player's weapon customization? That's an entirely different problem.

 

If you read what I said, I was talking about weapon customization, and both multishot and damage mods are a problem regarding build options, thus hurting the game. DE knows this, and even if some players threaten to leave, or do leave once the patch rolls out, the game will still move on, given the game's popularity right now. New players will be introduced to a then more balanced game mechanic, and they won't have to go through the mandatory "Serration + split chamber" mods. They will, by then, have options.

 

Besides, I don't know why people automatically treat it as a "nerf" even though the patch hasn't come out yet. It's obvious that DE is looking for ways to balance out the change, otherwise, it would have arrived way, way earlier.

 

Every slot is taken by specific mods regardless. Even if you take and nerf multishot what about all the other mods that are forced like elemental mods which take up 2-4 slots, Crit mods taking 1-4 slots, raw dmg mods take 1-2 slots, multishot takes 1-2 and lastly punch through which is a must with near every weapon taking another slot if available depending on the weapon. So don't give me "Oh but it will add more variety" as i can tell you it won't and people will still use slots knowing full well what to put in there to increase dmg (which will likely be the puncture/impact/slash event mods). If we had more equalized weapons as in most weapons could at least do mid tier then we would have more variety already. They have added weapons like the Paracyst, Panthera, Torid, Mutalist Quanta etc to add that variety in play. Sadly most of those are bad or were at one time decent but later nerfed.

 

BTW there is a difference in "balancing" and "nerfing". Balancing is when they attempt to even the games mechanics out and make things more fair across the board. Nerfing is when they take something in the game that is comparable to something else in the game already and break it. Like sushi said though they can just as easily add another slot to primaries and secondaries like a utility slot. Warframes have gained 2 slots since the start of the game aura and utility while the melee have gained stance mod slots. It isn't hard for them to do and it wouldn't be game breaking to add that to weapons through some method of achievement similar to utility slots on frames. If they added a new slot with mods that changed the way weapons fired that would solve all your problems and allow for versatility with every weapon. They could be basic like adding homing/heat seeking to rockets (similar to grineer bombard) or advanced like adding new effects all together like causing the bullets to hover over an area and upon using secondary fire they rain down on the target area.

[TheKingOfAllNoobs]

-snip-

There is a hot topic on this now, share your thoughts there.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/526890-september-11th-community-hot-topics/

[fatpig84]

It's actually about time DE started changing things up regarding damage mods.

 

The fact that Multishot, and even Serration (and its counterparts), are mandatory in virtually ANY build limits the player's weapon customization. Weapons have a total of 8 slots, and 2 of those slots are automatically consumed by the said essential damage upgrades. You might as well reduce the weapon slots to 6 and have every weapon in the game automatically have damage% and multishot in effect.

 

Once multishot gets toned down to its intended function (consuming ammo on extra shots or something else), players will have the freedom to choose whether to use it or install another mod instead.

 

Once this is done, I hope DE does something about Serration and its other equivalent mods.

 

You know PRIMED Point Blank exist ?

If DE removes it do you know how much amount of tears and outrage it will bring ?

 

Unless DE is willing to pay 1000 plat to some of those fellows who paid that kind of price for a maxed R10 Primed mod, I seriously doubt they dare to carry through with this.

 

Or just throw legendary cores at them, that could work.

[My_Brain_Trembles]

You know PRIMED Point Blank exist ?

If DE removes it do you know how much amount of tears and outrage it will bring ?

 

Unless DE is willing to pay 1000 plat to some of those fellows who paid that kind of price for a maxed R10 Primed mod, I seriously doubt they dare to carry through with this.

 

Or just throw legendary cores at them, that could work.

 

I'm fairly certain that is what they plan to do. They stated a long time ago that they were planning to remove raw dmg mods like serration. 

[Dragongodcarnage]

All i know is that i am going to be kinda pissed when they do that i mean hell i put a lot of time putting forma and time to build the weapons how i like them and those who say that damage mods limit build quality or arent built the way they were meant to, my question is are you using my build are you playing on my account, well then why do something that in my eyes will force a lot of the vetern players out of the game due to the fact that they wasted there time putting forma in there weapons, because i for one when that happens and if the rework on multishot does what i think it will do to some weapons then i dont think i am going to to playing thw fame that often because i wasted my time and money building the weapons how i wanted them not how a few whiney people wanted it

[Tenno29543]

Hi everyone!

 

yes, multishot rework has been a pretty hot topic lately. And i wanted to open a completely new post to point out some things.

Multishot needed a rework, because the multishot mods are one of the cheapest way to highly increase DPS with no downside at all. Along with multishot mods we have Serration, P.point blank and Hornet strike.

I feel the second kind of "pure damage mods" are quite fine. They are 1 for each weapon and r10 mods (one is legendary).

I feel that 1 mandatory mod in 8 slots is pretty fine, and its 10 rank give some kind of "progression" feeling. Im totally fine with those to stay as they are.

 

Now lets focus on other damage mods with no downsides:

-- Elemental mods: yes, those are pretty mandatory too, but theyr damage boost isnt even close as the multishot or pure damage ones. it forces you to add elemental damage with its slight bonuses and downsides and contributes in minor part to build diversity.

 

--Element+ Effect: same as elemental mods, still no real downside. lesser damage boost but contrubute to enable the "status mechanic" that is pretty nice in this game.  

 

--Crit mods: just a straight damage increase on weps with 15% or more of critical chance. these are borderline. i mean, those are not for all weapons, but on some can give an insane damage boost with no downside.

But still, quite necessary for build diversity.

in fact there will be ever some mandatory mods unless DE is going to rework completely damages and enemy scaling. probably it would be much healthier with a PVP-like system of mods, but the one we have now isnt bad a some try to picture it.

IMHO multishot mods should just consume some ammos from reserve. like 1/3 of the extra shot made. Example: Split chamber +90% multishot +30% ammos drained from ammo pool.

So they will still be a straight damage upgrade but without a downside that totally cripples the mod or that is just another simple RoF mod. And this way will force some build diversity on weps with low ammo pools and yet having a downside perceptible on weps with larger ammo pools.

 

That would force the usage of vacuum more than ever, but thats another topic. On that, as many others, i just think any frame and companion should have an innate vacuum effect with carrier having just a much bigger one.

 

 

if this topic is too much, i just apologize and ask if it can be merged with a bigger one.

Without muti shot end game content will be even harder, they are ALREADY a lot of ammo inefficient guns and muti shot  is part of the mods that make them usable. if anything i'd like to see a buff. If they take your suggestion then a lot of people including my self will be upset and prob uninstall the game.

[Otis.Driftwood]

I would like to know what exactly are these "other mods" you would use in your "weapon customization" if you had no serration and multi shot type mods?

Do you think it will be a return of the rainbow builds of the past?

Myself I cant find any mods I would even consider on my weapon builds if these were non -existant

Edited January 21, 2016 by Otis.Driftwood

[Kinetos]

I would like to know what exactly are these "other mods" you would use in your "weapon customization" if you had no serration and multi shot type mods?

Do you think it will be a return of the rainbow builds of the past?

Myself I cant find any mods I would even consider on my weapon builds if these were non -existant

recoil reduction, fire rate, reload speed, mag size, punch through. These would make a Lex Prime feel a whole lot nicer to use, but currently it's not a good build because it costs too much in reduced damage.

Without muti shot end game content will be even harder, they are ALREADY a lot of ammo inefficient guns and muti shot is part of the mods that make them usable. if anything i'd like to see a buff. If they take your suggestion then a lot of people including my self will be upset and prob uninstall the game.

refer to earlier posts about nuclear bomb to damage balance. Edit: oh, this seems to be a different necroposted thread than the necroposted thread I thought it was. Still, this should be common knowledge by now. Edited January 21, 2016 by KinetosImpetus

[Kinetos]

All i know is that i am going to be kinda pissed when they do that i mean hell i put a lot of time putting forma and time to build the weapons how i like them and those who say that damage mods limit build quality or arent built the way they were meant to, my question is are you using my build are you playing on my account, well then why do something that in my eyes will force a lot of the vetern players out of the game due to the fact that they wasted there time putting forma in there weapons, because i for one when that happens and if the rework on multishot does what i think it will do to some weapons then i dont think i am going to to playing thw fame that often because i wasted my time and money building the weapons how i wanted them not how a few whiney people wanted it

"I don't want them to make a much better balanced system because I have spent some time on getting stuff upgraded in the old imbalanced system."

K

[Glasglow]

The necro is real.

For them to do anything like this would warrant some pretty big scale changes to the whole damage system which would result in damage 3.0 and rescaling of enemies for all levels, plus refunds to the whole playerbase, its not happening soon if at all.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Glasglow

[CY13ERPUNK]

It's actually about time DE started changing things up regarding damage mods.

 

The fact that Multishot, and even Serration (and its counterparts), are mandatory in virtually ANY build limits the player's weapon customization. Weapons have a total of 8 slots, and 2 of those slots are automatically consumed by the said essential damage upgrades. You might as well reduce the weapon slots to 6 and have every weapon in the game automatically have damage% and multishot in effect.

 

Once multishot gets toned down to its intended function (consuming ammo on extra shots or something else), players will have the freedom to choose whether to use it or install another mod instead.

 

Once this is done, I hope DE does something about Serration and its other equivalent mods.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^ this guy gets it