What I Had To Say To My Clan That I'm Not Happy About At All

[Maddoc]

 This isn't even a new concept. Guilds/Clans are like this in nearly every game with very few exceptions.

 

Had you ever actually played any of those games you'd know that guilds and clans tend to be far, far smaller than the size that would be required in this game to make any appreciable progress.

 

And every aspect of gameplay in this game is predicated upon four man groups, far smaller than those in other online games. The fact that it then requires clans many times larger than any game on the market makes no sense.

 

The majority of major raiding guilds in any MMO on the market will only have a small number more active members than those required for a raiding group, because otherwise progress for each raiding member would be slowed if the size of the guild was incompatible with the size of the raid. Contrary to your ill informed opinions, it is frequently the smaller more active guilds and clans that are the most organized and thus more effective groups in other games. As long as they have enough active members to complete the content, they are well off. I feel like, again, I should stress that the number of members required to complete any actual gameplay content in this game is four people.

 

Trying to excuse the faults in this poorly designed time sink with comparisons to other games only makes your ignorance on the subject evident.

[Cinderain]

100 in game moneys for hallways of any size

200 in game moneys for rooms to pvp in

300 in game moneys for rooms that actually do something like an elevator or a oracle or a lab even

400 in game moneys for a pretty painting on the all

 

The prices for getting the dojo need to be low.  SCALING NOT REQUIRED AT ALL.

 

Then make the huge prices the actual items coming out of the dojo.  Flamethrower, chainsaw or whatever.

 

Here since you need exact amounts that of course would have to be decided by number trends I do not have that are completely internal to DE.

Assuming it takes the average player 40 hours to acquire 1000 in game resources and the goal DE is trying to set is 1 new item per week to keep people playing the game...

 

1000 in game resources for the flamethrower

1000 in game resources of a different kind for the chainsaw

1000 in game resources of even a different type plus 1 forma (why not?) for a Las Gatling Gun that has "Toga Party" written on it's ammo case

 

Time sync = items

Time sync does not = dojo

 

For some reason, scaling still comes off as a simpler solution to please the masses instead of trying to find a single balance to apply to everything at once.

 

Scaling would require a bit of math, but I don't like math... I still like it better than decreasing the overall costs, allowing larger clans to blow through the content even more quickly where they then proceed to come here and complain for Update 9.

[BETAOPTICS]

Is 'not reading' a trend, or something?

 

"We've got a Global Chat, progression and market systems on par with other MMOFPS/TPS."

 

CoD doesn't have any global communication. CoD's gear isn't obtained like your typical MMOFPS/TPS. And it's gear is limited, very limited and new gear is never added. CoD doesn't have a market. Or currency. Or cash currency. Nor does it's progression have any depth. Nor does it have ongoing developer support that isn't cut off in a year. Ongoing support such as weekly patches, fixes and additions of new content.

 

There is a lot that makes a game an MMO, depending on the genre that you're looking at.

 

What is it with people and thinking that RPGs are the only MMOs that exist? You realize that there are tons, right? Sports? Racing? Music? And shooters, obviously. Wolfteam, AVA, Combat Arms, S4 League, GunZ, etc.

OK let me get a better example since that one was quite poor indeed. Is Diablo 3 MMO? It has global chat, it has economy and marketplace, it's gear is not limited, it has depth in progression and it has ongoing support of developers yet it is not regarded to be MMO despite the fact that in function it is very close than Warframe has. So my question is, what truly is MMO and what is not?

Edited May 27, 2013 by BETAOPTICS

[Ayarai]

And what you're talking about is your simple MMORPG.

 

MMO is a generic term and there are many genres that go along with it. I clearly said in my reply that Warframe is on par with other MMOFPS and MMOTPS. First-person and third-person shooters.

 

Suppose we're getting a bit sidetracked here, but I wasn't actually talking just about MMORPG's. When you mention genres like MMOFPS/MMOTPS, I think of games like Planetside 1 & 2, Defiance and Firefall - which all feature that persistence.

 

I guess in a way this is a bit similar clash of opinions in terms of what defines whether a game is an MMO or not, which a lot of folks had about the original Guild Wars. Some consider it as an MMO(RPG), while some consider it as an cooperative online rpg.

 

I can't be the only one noticing that even in just this thread there seems to be a fairly noticeable difference in what one person considers Small/Large and another, right?

 

 You say 20-30, right? But there are other people in these topics talking about clans as small as 10. A few around 100. 

 

 And then again when it comes to what people call large. Some people thing anything over 100 is big, but others are pointing at 300 or more.

 

It is certainly one of those topics where you really can't draw any clear lines of what is a small/medium/large clan, because pretty much everyone has their own definition of the subject. While I'd consider anything up to 40'ish members a small clan, clans up to 100 members a medium sized clan and anything over 100 members a large sized - someone else might just consider anything below 100 members a small sized clan.

[Cinderain]

yet it is not regarded to be MMO

 

It isn't? Since when? By whom?

 

Then again, Diablo is a different matter entirely, having both offline and online play. A hybrid between MMO and RPG, if anything.

Edited May 27, 2013 by FatalX7

[Temporary]

I can see both sides of the argument here and whilst you can't deny that things aren't exactly fair on "small" clans you also can't go scaling costs without pissing off the players in "large" clans who have already spent the time/resources/plat so basically you're screwed if you do and screwed if you don't.

I'm sure if scaling happens DE will refund the costs back to the players (if that is even possible) there by making the time/resources issue a moot point but refunding plat creates another massive problem in that the players who have specifically purchased it wouldn't have done so otherwise and will be left out of pocket not to mention the fact that if players do an optional reset they get all the plat back that they have spent which i'm sure either hasn't been thought of or hasn't been exploited yet.

Personally I prefer smaller clans/guilds of people that I actually know and not a bunch of randoms/strangers however if push comes to shove and I really want to get the "shiny new stuff" i'll bite the bullet and go join one.

[Nemn]

I don't really see the need to ask for so many resources

 

Current dojo requirements: clans with 20 or less members are screwed, 50-man clans won't have any problems building their dojos and 100+-man clans will be able to build anything they want filling the requirements in a very short period of time.

 

Lowering the requirements: small clans will have a chance, medium sized clans won't have any problems either and everything else will be the same for big clans.

 

Lowering the resource requirements wouldn't make people burn content faster either, if anything this kind of costs make people join big clans and get content unlocked a lot earlier.

[TheVoxyn]

The small clans and the large clans are ridiculous, just in my opinion, of course. 10 people you say? That's not a clan. That's a group. 1000+ members like in some instances are also not clans. That's more like an army. I agree with Blatant's thoughts on the ideal size of a clan. (in this game, anyways.) Buuuut it is still pretty broken. People who conform and join the gigantic clans will end up getting all the new content almost instantly and tire of it just as fast. Smaller clans will take forever to get there while pissing and moaning on the forums, which also leaves a crowd of users unhappy for other reasons. I also find it baffling that no one stops to think about how much time it takes to just code all of this. You think it's as easy as just waving their hands in the air and along comes a magical hotfix? That takes time. Kids expect instant gratification.

[Dragovich88]

I can see both sides of the argument here and whilst you can't deny that things aren't exactly fair on "small" clans you also can't go scaling costs without &!$$ing off the players in "large" clans who have already spent the time/resources/plat so basically you're screwed if you do and screwed if you don't.

I'm sure if scaling happens DE will refund the costs back to the players (if that is even possible) there by making the time/resources issue a moot point but refunding plat creates another massive problem in that the players who have specifically purchased it wouldn't have done so otherwise and will be left out of pocket not to mention the fact that if players do an optional reset they get all the plat back that they have spent which i'm sure either hasn't been thought of or hasn't been exploited yet.

Personally I prefer smaller clans/guilds of people that I actually know and not a bunch of randoms/strangers however if push comes to shove and I really want to get the "shiny new stuff" i'll bite the bullet and go join one.

 

Exactly i love to play with my friends have a few jokes here and there especially since we know each other for 27 years. It's really good fun but my friends have invested so much money into COD, Planet-side 2 that they have no interest in war-frame. Small clans or someone like me 1 person should be able to have access to all the content in reasonable time. Rather than being forced to join a stranger clan. Of-course i love war frame and of-course i want those weapons who doesn't.

[Ced23Ric]

Gentletenno,

 

let's remember what I try to preach in any of such threads: constructive feedback is the way to go. A player describing a current disparity, followed by angles on how to improve the situation has a much higher chance of achieving anything than negativity. Moving along, even if others come in and disagree, you don't need to convince "those guys", you need to convince DE. Bring forth your observations, suggestions and criticism, keep it factual and analytical, and don't dive into pety arguements.

 

Call to order, guys. Wanting the content is a legitimate wish. The current system is not yet fleshed out, so keep the feedback coming.

 

Cheers.

[OriKlein]

The fact that I'm in a topic with Fatal, he isn't trolling and I'm agreeing with everything he is saying should be a sign that hell is freezing over.

Blatant - you realize that you are unconstructively shutting down the other argument as if your opinion is fact?

If the tables were turned and clans scaled based on your number of players - would you not be in the forums saying "Why are you punishing us for being in a large clan?  We have people who don't contribute!  It is not fair to weigh us as equals!"

The fact is that is where the small clans lie.  We are being punished for being in a small clan.  It is not fair to weigh us on the same exact scale a 2000 member clan is.  They scaled the material costs to one group.  Your clan size just happens to be in that group size - so you have no complaints.

It is something he is seemingly quite apt at. 

The problem is that the prices are fixed for all structures, which is a poor design point to begin with, compounded by the quantities themselves, per everything and anything and then on top of that the expectation of every clan per average consisting of hundreds upon hundreds of players, due to certain top ten percentile clans which are coming from pseudo pre-organized communities (whereas a mass of complete randoms and often conflicting identities bunch up together, which usually results in rapid progress and eventually also yields high griefing and drama) measuring in the thousands.

The end result is that we're in a "conform/convert, or die" situation.

What will be the final outcome is that either players will join an established large clan as mere leechers to mooch off the efforts of others or that clans become elitist and punish (or expel) any member who is not grinding 24/7 to push up the clan ante.

This is a lose-lose situation.

 

 

The cost is not even that bad in small clans, I mean sure 5 people can´t build everything within a week but that just gives you a long term goal. Rome wasn´t build in a day, neither should the Dojos be. The scaling is fine for small guilds considering a solo hardcore grinding player should be able to get a room/week without counting the forma ofc.

Why is there this prevailing notion that everyone is, or every clan has, a hardcore 24/7 screen-glued drooling kid who does nothing but run warframe and farm for materials?

The great majority of small clans are comprised of working adults, with a day (or night) job and additional social life and/or responsibilities (such as family/children) beyond Warframe/game-playing.

Moreover:

Why does it come across as even remotely fair to mount the entire weight of a clan's progress on the shoulders of a single individual (or few)?

Why does it come across as even remotely logical to have the entire clan dependent upon the efforts and commitment of a single individual (or few)?

A clan should share the burden equally - optimally; while not every member can be expected to provide equal yield there should be a more proper dispersal of load across the board and not set upon a select few to carry the rest - a situation which is just inviting troubles from both ends.

 

MMO :- MASSIVE MULTILAYER ONLINE 

It doesnt say MOP :- MASSIVE OFFLINE PLAY

 

If you dont wana get socialize , play and group like rest of us, i say quit MMOs, start playing single player games :)

 

If you dont want friends, nor clan, then YOU DONT DESERVE TO GET THOSE GUNS. SIMPLE AS THAT , GOT IT ? YOU DONT DESERVE THEM.....

 

Or you can just wait for next updates and BUY THEM WITH CASH !!!!!

 

 

"I simply want access to all the weapons"  :- So the fact is that, you want everything for free and not willing to act as group ?

Your arguments are wrong on a multi-layer.

First, this game is not MMO. It follows in the venue of Phantasy Star Online and others. It is a dungeon crawler with a town hub.

The social aspect is limited to lobbies (which we do not currently have, save the starmap and the perspective regional IRC chat rooms) whereas the actual gameplay is conducted with a fairly small squad (usually, 2-8 players).

The very core notion of "massive multiplayer" is non-tangible.

There is very little in the way of social interaction beyond this; one might say even that it is mechanically discouraged, if not by design.

Habbo Hotel and Gaia Online, in a sad twist of irony, provide better social - MMO - aspects than these games.

Secondly, you confuse desire to socialize with choice of socialization.

There is a very tiny portion, if at all, of people who want to play solo forever alone.

People do want to socialize, but they don't necessarily look to expand their social circle.

They already come with friends, from RL, from other games/communities. They want to play with THOSE people. They want to socialize with those friends. They neither need nor want to go out of their way to find more.

They may make some new ones along the way, but your approach is essentially FORCING them to force themselves upon strangers for sake of success and progress in the game. This is purely invalid behaviour and likely to yield more negative than positive results - no one likes a pushover.

Furthermore, I play in online mode with random people. 95% of people I end up playing with don't talk in chat during the mission or socialize at all after of. They just skip from one game to the next, like complete mutes. And yes, there are the rushers, too.

So your method is further proven flawed.

Thirdly, you are incorrect about MMOs being a social experience or a required playing with others.

To a certain no-small extent, the reason WoW was successful in the mass market whereas others have failed was due to its ability to provide social experience as a background noise at best (again, chats and a chance encounter in a hub or along the road with other players, or random PUG for a certain quest) whereas the vast majority of the gameplay (leveling, looting, questing, touring the land, et cetera) was perfectly accomplished by solo playing without any reliance upon other players in order to further one's character and progress (raids - which were purposely designed as action for small and huge groups from the get go - aside).

Warframe, dojos aside, is perfectly playable (yes, even void runs) solo. You can win missions playing solo.

There is even the option of playing solo.

Therefore, your argument is once again invalid.

Fourth, all players are deserving on an equal measure and basis. You are being discriminatory. This is a wrong thing to do and is socially unacceptable in most western societies.

Fifth, a huge clan numbering in the hundreds or thousands is far less social and rather impersonal, nor is it good at cultivating such warm and intimate connections between people, than a relatively small (20-50) one whereas everyone knows everyone else.

 

 

And what you're talking about is your simple MMORPG.

 

MMO is a generic term and there are many genres that go along with it. I clearly said in my reply that Warframe is on par with other MMOFPS and MMOTPS. First-person and third-person shooters.

It is in my humble opinion that games such as PSO, Warframe, Diablo, so on are best categorized by the old age 90s term: MPOG - Multi-Player Only/Online Game.

The only "massive" part of MMO applicable in these is the size of the player database and length of UserID# strings.

 

Moving along, even if others come in and disagree, you don't need to convince "those guys", you need to convince DE. Bring forth your observations, suggestions and criticism, keep it factual and analytical, and don't dive into pety arguements.

Cheers.

I beg to differ, to a degree.

While it is certainly in need for constructive posts and for abstaining of petty fumbling, and while it is true that the arguments need be made infront of DE and to convince them, I believe it not lesser of importance to generate a consensus based upon same facts, analysis and peer review process, which presents DE with a unified community hardline and therefore, to provide discourse that will demonstrate why certain opinions are right and why others are wrong and convince the perspective opinion authors of either argument's merits.

Otherwise, the result of any change DE create based upon a certain argument will be met with a further community polarizing backlash; whereas a more unified community will see a wide-accepted solution implemented.

Best Regards,

Edited May 27, 2013 by OriKlein

[ThePrdator]

I'm warlord of the clan with kiteless in it, and one of the reasons that we said that we couldn't put together a dojo was that most of our 6 active members were still new to the gamethey had enough to do then divert there resources to a dojo. And why should they why should any of us have to compete with vast quatities just to have access to a feature in the game. why should we have to leave and abandon our friends and small clans to be with strangers. The clan we have is filled with good friends and we play vast amount of games together, why should warframe bs any different.

People say it'd be easy to abuse the system but think about how easy itd be to fix these problems. And dont have the numbers change per-person have them in stages, so 1-5 members, then 6-10 and so on.

[Dragovich88]

I'm warlord of the clan with kiteless in it, and one of the reasons that we said that we couldn't put together a dojo was that most of our 6 active members were still new to the gamethey had enough to do then divert there resources to a dojo. And why should they why should any of us have to compete with vast quatities just to have access to a feature in the game. why should we have to leave and abandon our friends and small clans to be with strangers. The clan we have is filled with good friends and we play vast amount of games together, why should warframe bs any different.

People say it'd be easy to abuse the system but think about how easy itd be to fix these problems. And dont have the numbers change per-person have them in stages, so 1-5 members, then 6-10 and so on.

 

Exactly i wish i had my friends here but they are too busy sniping heads in other games. You shouldn't be forced or have to leave your friends to gain access to a feature that's just wrong. But at the moment there is no other choice for research as a small clan or a single person like me. It would take me a year with my 12 hour shift everyday 7 days a week.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Dragovich88

[waftycrank]

Build time should be function of clan size.  Not flat direct resource collection rate for n players over n days/weeks/months/years/decades/centuries/millennia. 

 

EDIT: WF is only a 4P co-op game.  Not an MMO.

Edited May 27, 2013 by waftycrank

[grndragon]

Gentletenno,

 

let's remember what I try to preach in any of such threads: constructive feedback is the way to go. A player describing a current disparity, followed by angles on how to improve the situation has a much higher chance of achieving anything than negativity. Moving along, even if others come in and disagree, you don't need to convince "those guys", you need to convince DE. Bring forth your observations, suggestions and criticism, keep it factual and analytical, and don't dive into pety arguements.

 

Call to order, guys. Wanting the content is a legitimate wish. The current system is not yet fleshed out, so keep the feedback coming.

 

Cheers.

gentletenno. i have to remember that word, thats brilliant!

 

 

 

in other words aside from all the negativity i really wish to point out that this thread has many examples of why i love this community. i have never seen a community write such long and detailed posts as the ones found in threads on this forum. and many of them have excelent points no matter the views.

[Gemini_Jenvas]

Ive discussed joining a bigger clan with my clan members. we are a small clan and actually know each other, having a skype call running everytime we play something together. the only reason to join a different clan (and we would join all the same one), would be to get access to the research weapons.

we would contribute to buildprojects that achive that goal, but its highly unlikely we would socialize a lot.

Is that what DE wants? subclans within clans? (if we would stay at all after getting what we want, making that big clan basically a prostitute that has to set its prices or just get used)

Edited May 27, 2013 by Jenvas1306

[Worira]

Had you ever actually played any of those games you'd know that guilds and clans tend to be far, far smaller than the size that would be required in this game to make any appreciable progress.

 

And every aspect of gameplay in this game is predicated upon four man groups, far smaller than those in other online games. The fact that it then requires clans many times larger than any game on the market makes no sense.

 

The majority of major raiding guilds in any MMO on the market will only have a small number more active members than those required for a raiding group, because otherwise progress for each raiding member would be slowed if the size of the guild was incompatible with the size of the raid. Contrary to your ill informed opinions, it is frequently the smaller more active guilds and clans that are the most organized and thus more effective groups in other games. As long as they have enough active members to complete the content, they are well off. I feel like, again, I should stress that the number of members required to complete any actual gameplay content in this game is four people.

 

Trying to excuse the faults in this poorly designed time sink with comparisons to other games only makes your ignorance on the subject evident.

 

Just to add onto this: In most MMOs, a larger guild can get a greater amount of loot or rewards, but they also have more members to distribute it amongst. Yes, there may be a certain advantage from an economy of scale, but people don't just throw all the loot they get into a box that replicates it among every other clan member. If each member of a 50-person guild earns 20 Rewardopoints for a total of 1000, that's 20 Rewardopoints each. They don't each get their own 1000 Rewardopoints. But that is functionally what happens in Warframe.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Worira

[Steemship]

Have any of you tried actually recruiting to a small clan now? Everyone and their brother is joining some big mob clan at this point for the dojo benefits.

[Emolition]

Do you get to keep the weapons you build in the clan lab  after you leave the clan  ? For that would be a way for me and my friend  join a clan leach as they build then make the guns and jump out having the gun we want.  As for me dont see a reason being in a 500+ clan when you at most will talk to 3 of them maybe.

[Hazzerone]

Or have resource costs scale depending on the number of members, instead of slapping a single price over everything.

 

If you've got 5 people, why would you invest the resources that 500 people would need? You don't cater to one group, because their gameplay experience isn't more important than someone in a smaller clan.

Terrible idea. Opens up a loophole.

 

Simply have a number of your members leave the clan, then join back a few days later. Bam. You just unlocked all content fast as hell as a small clan. Completely broken idea.

[LeAtlas]

I think the point of clan dojo is to provoke teamwork amongst clannies... but from all i can see in big clans such as broframe, i bet more than 50% of them are just mere sitting ducks waiting for free stuffs like the research lab weapons... balance is important for a great game... this is obviously not balance from where i can see it

[LeAtlas]

Have any of you tried actually recruiting to a small clan now? Everyone and their brother is joining some big mob clan at this point for the dojo benefits.

i joined a clan of 22 mates... because i really want to contribute to a clan and not just sit and wait for stuff to come at me

[Kahruvel]

Serious victim blaming going on in here.

[LeAtlas]

Terrible idea. Opens up a loophole.

 

Simply have a number of your members leave the clan, then join back a few days later. Bam. You just unlocked all content fast as hell as a small clan. Completely broken idea.

as the clan grows they will need to repair their rooms with extra resources in order to use that particular room again.This answer you question?

[Ageless_Emperion]

 It is unreasonable to ask DE to hold the hand of smaller clans. By making it easier for you they devalue the work of thousands of players who are in larger clans.

 

 Your gameplay experience is not more important then a player in a large clan. If you choose to stick to a small group or not grow into a larger group that is fine, but you better not expect to be able to power through content like a clan who did decide to grow.

 

 This isn't even a new concept. Guilds/Clans are like this in nearly every game with very few exceptions.

 

Wow coming from a community moderator? Hold the hand of smaller clans? Devalue the work of thosands of people?

 

What work? That they put in 1000 reosurces per member when the individuals in the small clan had to fork over 20,000 or more each?

 

You better not expect to power through the content like a clan who decided to grow? You mean like warbros who just dumped over $200 dollars to get everything built within the first few day of the patch?

 

 

Dude get a reality check...