What I Had To Say To My Clan That I'm Not Happy About At All

[Blatantfool]

It certainly shouldn't be unreasonable to write an opinion about the current implementation of the clan dojos and the building costs which are aimed more towards the clans with significant amount of members than clans with say 20-30 people. Of course, at this point DE can't exactly do anything about the costs without actually ending up devaluing someones work.

 

But in terms of future content, in my opinion it would be nice if the game design takes in account that this is a up to 4 player co-op game and not an MMO.

 

 Nah, you guys all have a right to your opinion. I'd protect it just as soon as disagree. S'why I'm responding so seriously to whoever talks at me. 

 

  I'm noticing an interesting trend in this thread anyway. I can't be the only one noticing that even in just this thread there seems to be a fairly noticeable difference in what one person considers Small/Large and another, right?

 

 You say 20-30, right? But there are other people in these topics talking about clans as small as 10. A few around 100. 

 

 And then again when it comes to what people call large. Some people thing anything over 100 is big, but others are pointing at 300 or more.

 

 

 Also, yeah. Now that the content is IN the game I'd say the next step should actually be fleshing out content smaller clans can snag. They've set up a healthy groundwork for larger goals. Time to do smaller ones too. I see no reason why there shouldn't be possibilities that small clans can easily obtain on top of what is already set up - among other changes.

[Nickeltoe]

Scaling should not happen at all.

 

Low cost to build dojo, so every clan can do it.  Keep the forma option there, people can do it slowly with RNG in game or real money to push through.  Both sides are happy, but absolutely remove the huge resource requirement for clan dojos so anyone can make them.  I know this system was put in like this to avoid more of the players saying it is a pay only option but since forma can be purchased or attained without purchase that point is moot.

 

High cost to research the items themselves PER PLAYER.  Content then comes in at the same pace for everyone and DE gets what they want out of it, people gathering content slower and staying in game.  The only thing they can power through then is spending real money to build the dojo, but getting the items out of it still takes the same time for everyone, a huge personal investment in resources and time.

 

Low cost dojo, high cost items INDIVIDUALLY per player, not per Clan.  Scaling is absolutely not needed at all.

[Quetzhal]

Simply put, right now, large clans actually have it too easy. A dojo, in my opinion, is something you build on and add to over time - it's not content you should be able to obtain within a week. My thoughts:

Cosmetic rooms and connectors should be cheap. Very cheap. Not all cosmetic rooms, of course, but basically you want to be able to build the "meat" of the dojo so that players feel like they're actually progressing in building their own space - meanwhile, the research rooms, the stuff that nets you actual progression in the game? Those should be expensive and should take much longer. But connectors and base rooms should be on about even grounds in terms of how easy it is for both sizes of clans.

Large clans should have it a little bit easier, yes. Small clans should take longer. It is logical. Right now, though, the scaling is terrible because a large clan can take a single day where a small clan would take months, if not longer. The difference should really only be a week or two.

How do you solve this so that clan members don't kick their own members out to scale down resource requirements? My opinion is that resource requirements should be locked for about a week after a major reduction in the number of clan numbers. If it's just one or two, I think it's fine - the clan was borderline anyway. And ultimately, since the difference is only a week or two, you're not really winning yourself that much more time.

This is one thing I honestly haven't given that much thought, though. There are likely better solutions - those are just my base thoughts. I would think of a system, but... I have to be studying Biochemistry.

Edit: I also like what Nickeltoe said.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Quetzhal

[Dragovich88]

When I joined this game is knew nobody, now I got a clan of 260 players and over 150 friends... So much for strangers

I recently bought master a package and joined Design council... I never knew those players.... Bunow I have made over 20 friends in past few days..... Again there is no point in says strangers and stuff

As long as you are friendly. You ABSOLUTELY HAVE NO PROBLEM IN FINDING FRIENDS

If you are not ready to accept others, that's you problem.... It's better for you to stay in uber small clans, forfiet rewards and die out

 

Next time read carefully before replying i don't want friends nor do i want to be in a clan. I simply want access to all the weapons etc. Rather than being forced to join a clan of strangers just to unlock those weapons. If i wanted pvp or wanted people to play with i see the point of the dojo i think its fantastic but not for those who just want the weapons.

[Blatantfool]

The fact that I'm in a topic with Fatal, he isn't trolling and I'm agreeing with everything he is saying should be a sign that hell is freezing over.

Blatant - you realize that you are unconstructively shutting down the other argument as if your opinion is fact?

If the tables were turned and clans scaled based on your number of players - would you not be in the forums saying "Why are you punishing us for being in a large clan?  We have people who don't contribute!  It is not fair to weigh us as equals!"

The fact is that is where the small clans lie.  We are being punished for being in a small clan.  It is not fair to weigh us on the same exact scale a 2000 member clan is.  They scaled the material costs to one group.  Your clan size just happens to be in that group size - so you have no complaints.

 

 It is not really my intention to read as aggressive as I'm sure my posts do. I just come off like that. Guess it has been so long since I've just talked in a thread a few of you regulars have forgotten. It is all good, I don't have to work a ton of magic. I'm not the one asking for change here. Look at some of the responses to my posts. It is at a point now where I'm paying attention purely because it is good to know where people's heads are at.

 

 

 As for "If the tables are turned" - that is part of why I'm against any hard scaling. Two really bad things could happen if they add scaling and it isn't set up just right. First, it could be too little - which means no change. Second, it is too much - which flips the issue and means you're no better off for all the work.

 

  Out of curiosity I'm going to ask you something I asked another poster.

 

 What is the rough number you feel a clan is a 'Small' or 'Large' clan at? Where do you draw the lines?

[Noobxs]

High cost to research the items themselves PER PLAYER.  Content then comes in at the same pace for everyone and DE gets what they want out of it, people gathering content slower and staying in game.  The only thing they can power through then is spending real money to build the dojo, but getting the items out of it still takes the same time for everyone, a huge personal investment in resources and time.

 

Low cost dojo, high cost items INDIVIDUALLY per player, not per Clan.  Scaling is absolutely not needed at all.

 

That's some valid points you make there my friend, however the emphasis on this update was getting people talking in clans, hanging out in a magnificent dojo with friends/strangers/creepy people over the game feeling like your a part of a bigger project than you can't handle on your own.

 

To this extent they have succeeded in both making me and my clan work hard towards a common goal (currently on our site we are discussing which research to build first, whichever one gets a flamer naturally) and accidently succeeded in uniting clans in the common goal of pitchforking DE for making it harder on smaller clans.

 

All in all, the game is in beta argument is slowly getting old to use so instead I will break out the "Dojo's are in alpha" argument. Changes will come, and its up to us to throw as many suggestions at DE as possible so they can take the right steps to keep the community playing

[Cinderain]

Scaling should not happen at all.

 

Low cost to build dojo, so every clan can do it.  Keep the forma option there, people can do it slowly with RNG in game or real money to push through.  Both sides are happy, but absolutely remove the huge resource requirement for clan dojos so anyone can make them.  I know this system was put in like this to avoid more of the players saying it is a pay only option but since forma can be purchased or attained without purchase that point is moot.

 

High cost to research the items themselves PER PLAYER.  Content then comes in at the same pace for everyone and DE gets what they want out of it, people gathering content slower and staying in game.  The only thing they can power through then is spending real money to build the dojo, but getting the items out of it still takes the same time for everyone, a huge personal investment in resources and time.

 

Low cost dojo, high cost items INDIVIDUALLY per player, not per Clan.  Scaling is absolutely not needed at all.

 

What would these costs be?

Edited May 27, 2013 by FatalX7

[.Monarch]

 It is unreasonable to ask DE to hold the hand of smaller clans. By making it easier for you they devalue the work of thousands of players who are in larger clans.

 

 Your gameplay experience is not more important then a player in a large clan. If you choose to stick to a small group or not grow into a larger group that is fine, but you better not expect to be able to power through content like a clan who did decide to grow.

 

 This isn't even a new concept. Guilds/Clans are like this in nearly every game with very few exceptions.

 

Auto-Scale resources needed depending on Clan size? 

[Ayarai]

Just because you go into missions with four people doesn't mean that it's not an MMO. It's a dungeon crawler, and now we've got HUBs.

 

We've got thousands of people online at once, all playing together. That alone fits the definition of Massively Multiplayer Online. We've got a Global Chat, progression and market systems on par with other MMOFPS/TPS.

 

What it is missing though is the persistent world and hubs that actually allow for player "interaction" beyond just your own clan. Both of which are usually something that are thought of as defining elements of an MMO.

 

Warframe may have some elements of an MMO, but I definitely wouldn't count it as one any more than I would count Diablo 3 or Battlefield 3 etc. which all have thousands of players playing them. :)

[Zyfe3rX]

Next time read carefully before replying i don't want friends nor do i want to be in a clan. I simply want access to all the weapons etc. Rather than being forced to join a clan of strangers just to unlock those weapons. If i wanted pvp or wanted people to play with i see the point of the dojo i think its fantastic but not for those who just want the weapons.

 

 

MMO :- MASSIVE MULTILAYER ONLINE 

It doesnt say MOP :- MASSIVE OFFLINE PLAY

 

If you dont wana get socialize , play and group like rest of us, i say quit MMOs, start playing single player games :)

 

 

If you dont want friends, nor clan, then YOU DONT DESERVE TO GET THOSE GUNS. SIMPLE AS THAT , GOT IT ? YOU DONT DESERVE THEM.....

 

Or you can just wait for next updates and BUY THEM WITH CASH !!!!!

 

 

"I simply want access to all the weapons"  :- So the fact is that, you want everything for free and not willing to act as group ?

Edited May 27, 2013 by Zyfe3rX

[TraumaHunter]

 It is not really my intention to read as aggressive as I'm sure my posts do. I just come off like that. Guess it has been so long since I've just talked in a thread a few of you regulars have forgotten. It is all good, I don't have to work a ton of magic. I'm not the one asking for change here. Look at some of the responses to my posts. It is at a point now where I'm paying attention purely because it is good to know where people's heads are at.

 

 

 As for "If the tables are turned" - that is part of why I'm against any hard scaling. Two really bad things could happen if they add scaling and it isn't set up just right. First, it could be too little - which means no change. Second, it is too much - which flips the issue and means you're no better off for all the work.

 

  Out of curiosity I'm going to ask you something I asked another poster.

 

 What is the rough number you feel a clan is a 'Small' or 'Large' clan at? Where do you draw the lines?

Small and large are too polarizing for proper scaling.  I agree.  I made a long topic encompassing my thoughts.  Topic died long ago - to long of an OP for people to read the whole thing - I don't really blame them either lol.  And if they did read the whole thing then it just couldn't garner much traction because A: there are 100 topics on this already, B: my ideas are more of a large compromise than a polarizing idea (which everyone loves to get behind lol ;) haha)  C: My ideas aren't doing much other than taking a few of the well developed ideas and morphing them into one and putting band-aids all over the  mess.

It's quite the challenge to make a compromise that the maximum number of players can be satisfied with.  DE would have to create a christmas miracle to pull off such a thing imo lol.  If they do it - hats off to them.  I am hoping they do/can.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/51494-the-small-clan-vs-large-clan-dojo-compilation-topic-and-my-giant-compromise/#entry530424

 

[Cinderain]

What it is missing though is the persistent world and hubs that actually allow for player "interaction" beyond just your own clan. Both of which are usually something that are thought of as defining elements of an MMO.

 

Warframe may have some elements of an MMO, but I definitely wouldn't count it as one any more than I would count Diablo 3 or Battlefield 3 etc. which all have thousands of players playing them. :)

 

And what you're talking about is your simple MMORPG.

 

MMO is a generic term and there are many genres that go along with it. I clearly said in my reply that Warframe is on par with other MMOFPS and MMOTPS. First-person and third-person shooters.

Edited May 27, 2013 by FatalX7

[Nickeltoe]

What would these costs be?

 

Whatever the prices are, make small clan dojos attainable by all clans.  I am not talking catering to 1 man.  Small clans (4 people lets say is the smallest since I only play with the same 3 other guys.)

 

We get our clan hall, we can't steam roll through the items as the items cost is high for everyone.

The large clan still have it's benefit by being large and have 4 man groups at all times, 24/7 so they still farm resources quicker and get the items quicker, but put the time sync here is on the item not the Dojo.

 

I do see the reason on putting up the clan hall as the time sync though.  Less resources in equipment and bandwidth required on DE's side storing all that data, but it was them who put acquiring these items from terminals in clan halls.  In the end if the point is to keep people playing the game towards a goal, this goal and resource size has made it just a bit of content to avoid for my small group.  It does not keep us in game or spending money, it is just not worth the time.

[Calgacus]

Suggestion:

3 tier dojo system. Small/medium/large. Costs and resources scale accordingly but so does the amount of people that can concurrently be in it. Or perhaps it can only output a certain amount of BPs? If it has an upgrade option then that might solve a lot of the problems. I don't think I've ever seen this in another game, where some of the content has potentially been blocked from smaller clans. However, I also think its not fair to expect to get everything really fast just like a large clan can. My suggestion means its your choice to stay in a smaller clan but with reasonable access to higher level content.

[BETAOPTICS]

Just because you go into missions with four people doesn't mean that it's not an MMO. It's a dungeon crawler, and now we've got HUBs.

 

We've got thousands of people online at once, all playing together. That alone fits the definition of Massively Multiplayer Online. We've got a Global Chat, progression and market systems on par with other MMOFPS/TPS.

So with your logic any game that mas say over 100k players online at the same time is a MMO? CoD isn't MMO for example nor is any other game. The way I have understood MMO's are that there needs to be +50 visible players at the same place at the same time to qualify as MMO. Dojo is the only real place where this can happen but Dojo is pretty much out of the base game features, it is just a place to hang out with (get some benefits while at it) and has no general affect to your gameplay experience other than limiting this new content and thus is not part of the actual real gameplay experience. Based on this claim, the Dojo is not alone enough to qualify this game as MMO and since the missions are limited to 4 players Co-Op mode rather than at least +50 players doing the same mission further proves my point of this game not actually being a MMO:

What comes to the thread topic at hand, I feel sorry for my friends and for our clan. The pressure from frustration was too big that I ended up joining a big clan so that I can really enjoy this game for what it is. Now it feels like I made the real move in a way. While I personally feel no tide among any of my clan members I can at least enjoy that I get to unlock the things I desire and use the benefits of a large clan. If the system was balanced (which it should be) I probably would have never left from our original clan and would be a lot happier being there but since that is not going to happen if the system is going to stay like this, I'd rather become another zombie in the horde in this apocalypse than be a survivor among the few rare ones.

[Cinderain]

Whatever the prices are

Well... okay.

[Brasten]

Here is the simple fact.

Because of the way DE set this up it only encouraged big clans to get bigger and small clans to die.

People without a clan wanted ready access to the "important" spaces that are hell to build for small clans. People in small struggling clans have now been dropping them in favor of bigger clans.

This creates a problem where by small clans are starved of the resources (members) they need to actually create the spaces people want.

It is the nature of the beast DE has created.

[Cyme]

Please DE:
Put a member cap to all clans.

Make the resources to build a room proportional to member count.

 

Thanks.

[Luxangel7]

 It is unreasonable to ask DE to hold the hand of smaller clans. By making it easier for you they devalue the work of thousands of players who are in larger clans.

 

 Your gameplay experience is not more important then a player in a large clan. If you choose to stick to a small group or not grow into a larger group that is fine, but you better not expect to be able to power through content like a clan who did decide to grow.

 

 This isn't even a new concept. Guilds/Clans are like this in nearly every game with very few exceptions.

 

The sheer negativity and one sided nature of this comment is astounding. No one is being unreasonable in expecting what was already promised, ie: an approach or system for smaller clans. No one is asking to make it "easier" for anyone. We are asking for it to be possible without belonging to a mega 1000+ member clan. 

 

No one is asking to devalue the "work" as you call it, or the "ability" of some to purchase hundreds of dollars worth of platinum to build things. The fact that the only way anything could get done was for large clans to spend hundreds of dollars worth of platinum is only a glaring symptom of the failed system.

 

Everyone's gameplay experience is equally important. You imply that the experience of players in larger clans is more important than that of players in smaller clans, while simultaneously accusing the OP of stating the opposite, when they never did.

 

And no one is asking to be able to "power through content", and citing clans in other games is no metric to go by. Those games are one thing, warframe is another. Should Warframe adopt Planetside 2's market structure then? Dear lord I hope not.

 

You are placing an extreme value and absolute right on being in a large clan while simultaneously explaining away the complete lack of catering to small clans as "tough, deal with it". 

 

Your comment especially surprises and perplexes me because I know you've seen many suggestions on the forums approaching how things could be solved fairly both for large clans and smaller clans, while at the same time making DE a lot more money, among other suggestion threads I've seen you comment in. And by reading your comment, it's as if that weren't true...

 

:(

[TraumaHunter]

Suggestion:

3 tier dojo system. Small/medium/large. Costs and resources scale accordingly but so does the amount of people that can concurrently be in it. Or perhaps it can only output a certain amount of BPs? If it has an upgrade option then that might solve a lot of the problems. I don't think I've ever seen this in another game, where some of the content has potentially been blocked from smaller clans. However, I also think its not fair to expect to get everything really fast just like a large clan can. My suggestion means its your choice to stay in a smaller clan but with reasonable access to higher level content.

lol might be worth a read if thats what you think.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/51494-the-small-clan-vs-large-clan-dojo-compilation-topic-and-my-giant-compromise/

[Nickeltoe]

Well... okay.

100 in game moneys for hallways of any size

200 in game moneys for rooms to pvp in

300 in game moneys for rooms that actually do something like an elevator or a oracle or a lab even

400 in game moneys for a pretty painting on the all

 

The prices for getting the dojo need to be low.  SCALING NOT REQUIRED AT ALL.

 

Then make the huge prices the actual items coming out of the dojo.  Flamethrower, chainsaw or whatever.

 

Here since you need exact amounts that of course would have to be decided by number trends I do not have that are completely internal to DE.

Assuming it takes the average player 40 hours to acquire 1000 in game resources and the goal DE is trying to set is 1 new item per week to keep people playing the game...

 

1000 in game resources for the flamethrower

1000 in game resources of a different kind for the chainsaw

1000 in game resources of even a different type plus 1 forma (why not?) for a Las Gatling Gun that has "Toga Party" written on it's ammo case

 

Time sync = items

Time sync does not = dojo

[Cifrer]

MMO :- MASSIVE MULTILAYER ONLINE 

It doesnt say MOP :- MASSIVE OFFLINE PLAY

 

If you dont wana get socialize , play and group like rest of us, i say quit MMOs, start playing single player games :)

 

 

If you dont want friends, nor clan, then YOU DONT DESERVE TO GET THOSE GUNS. SIMPLE AS THAT , GOT IT ? YOU DONT DESERVE THEM.....

 

Or you can just wait for next updates and BUY THEM WITH CASH !!!!!

 

 

"I simply want access to all the weapons"  :- So the fact is that, you want everything for free and not willing to act as group ?

 

The minute you start saying what other people deserve is the minute everyone stops listening to you.  Honestly posts like that are how people get reported and banned from posting on forums.  Think before you type please.

[Cinderain]

So with your logic any game that mas say over 100k players online at the same time

 

Is 'not reading' a trend, or something?

 

"We've got a Global Chat, progression and market systems on par with other MMOFPS/TPS."

 

CoD doesn't have any global communication. CoD's gear isn't obtained like your typical MMOFPS/TPS. And it's gear is limited, very limited and new gear is never added. CoD doesn't have a market. Or currency. Or cash currency. Nor does it's progression have any depth. Nor does it have ongoing developer support that isn't cut off in a year. Ongoing support such as weekly patches, fixes and additions of new content.

 

There is a lot that makes a game an MMO, depending on the genre that you're looking at.

 

What is it with people and thinking that RPGs are the only MMOs that exist? You realize that there are tons, right? Sports? Racing? Music? And shooters, obviously. Wolfteam, AVA, Combat Arms, S4 League, GunZ, etc.

[Brasten]

Also DE's recruitment/clan-finding system (or total lack there of) is utter garbage.

[Dragovich88]

MMO :- MASSIVE MULTILAYER ONLINE 

It doesnt say MOP :- MASSIVE OFFLINE PLAY

 

If you dont wana get socialize , play and group like rest of us, i say quit MMOs, start playing single player games :)

 

 

If you dont want friends, nor clan, then YOU DONT DESERVE TO GET THOSE GUNS. SIMPLE AS THAT , GOT IT ? YOU DONT DESERVE THEM.....

 

Or you can just wait for next updates and BUY THEM WITH CASH !!!!!

 

 

"I simply want access to all the weapons"  :- So the fact is that, you want everything for free and not willing to act as group ?

1. War-frame is not a proper mmo its a 4  player co-op.

 

2. I simply like to play with close friends. If you like socialising don't tell me i don't give a to$$.

 

3. It's F2P not force them to join clans so they can have all the features.

 

4. Yes i do want them for free so ?

 

5. I fail to see why you would mention that you brought the founders package. I brought frost's Helmet with real money doesn't make us more special.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Dragovich88