I Disagree With The Recent Changes/"nerfs" De Has Been Doing

[Kastorius]

What reason would DE have to lie, what possible advantage to they get for making a nerf that doesn't serve a purpose? I know the salt taste good, but stahp.

 

The nerf serves a variety of fairly obvious purposes, as outlined earlier in the thread. I'm not sure why they lie about some of the nerfs, other than in the hope they'll catch less flak for nerfing things into the ground left and right.

 

They tried to sell the Hydroid nerf as a buff, fooling absolutely no one. They claimed multishot mods were always intended to consume additional ammo, even though no mention was made of this bug for two years, and additional multishot mods (Dual Rounds) were released much later that also suffered from the same "bug". Not to mention, the enemy scaling as it stands was clearly designed with these mods in mind as must-haves.

 

Now, Hall of Mirrors is "changed" (nerfed) because of "performance issues," fifteen months after Mirage's release. You don't see a pattern, here? Do you actually believe DE thought the Hydroid nerf was anything but a nerf? Do you think multishot was actually bugged?

 

Why nerf Mirage now, if HoM caused serious performance issues? Why not immediately after her release, or three months later? As an aside, I don't like the idea of DE hamstringing the PC version because some people choose to play the game on a two-year-old potato whose hardware was effectively two years out of date when it was released.

 

Console vs. PC war aside, there's plenty of stuff in this game that adds far more GPU and/or CPU load than anything Hall of Mirrors can put out, for example Shadows of the Dead.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Kastorius

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

-snip-

The nerf serves a variety of fairly obvious purposes, as outlined earlier in the thread. I'm not sure why they lie about some of the nerfs, other than in the hope they'll catch less flak for nerfing things into the ground left and right.

Ok

 

They tried to sell the Hydroid nerf as a buff, fooling absolutely no one. They claimed multishot mods were always intended to consume additional ammo, even though no mention was made of this bug for two years, and additional multishot mods (Dual Rounds) were released much later that also suffered from the same "bug". Not to mention, the enemy scaling as it stands was clearly designed with these mods in mind as must-haves.

I'm not sure I agree with this characterization. The only spin I saw, was the same as the explanation. Hydroids augment was boring, for everyone. So, to REBALANCE, they removed power strength and made it so anyone can kill targets caught on the tentacles. So, with time to kill reduced you can get to targets faster and actually do stuff. You trade the higher potential drops for faster drops, in other words, and don't die of boredom. Its not that big of a deal.

As for multishot, I don't think it was a bug, it was a matter of intent versus implementation. They just went down the road so long with it the way it is, that the original intention seems extreme. Part of why all mods and weapons and enemy scaling is going to be rebalanced now.

 

Now, Hall of Mirrors is "changed" (nerfed) because of "performance issues," fifteen months after Mirage's release. You don't see a pattern, here? Do you actually believe DE thought the Hydroid nerf was anything but a nerf? Do you think multishot was actually bugged?

The only possible nerf part that can be construed from HoM is the lower projectile wall, and associated proc's, arcane, status, crit, or otherwise. However it really doesn't add up to much, not enough to justify call DE outright liars. Which is rude, by the way.

 

Why nerf Mirage now, if HoM caused serious performance issues? Why not immediately after her release, or three months later? As an aside, I don't like the idea of DE hamstringing the PC version because some people choose to play the game on a two-year-old potato whose hardware was effectively two years out of date when it was released.

Because it takes time to get the data, and to respond to the complaints and then evaluate the pro's and con's. This community freak out being one of the con's. Plus, please stop denying its a problem. Even some of the higher end machines slowdown when Mirage, especially multiple Mirages are spamming wall of projectiles. 

 

 

Console vs. PC war aside, there's plenty of stuff in this game that adds far more GPU and/or CPU load than anything Hall of Mirrors can put out, for example Shadows of the Dead.

The amount of stuff that HoM breaks doesn't even need to effect frame rate, it just gets broken. It is not controversial, it is a fact it effects performance. Maybe so, but SotD does its damage briefly on cast, after that the units are as manageable as any other asset in the game. Not a good example. 

 

Calling DE a liar is a pretty serious accusation. Its up there with EA, Activision, and Interplay levels of BS. I am sure when the right optimizations or sliders can be made the extra clones will return.

Edited October 4, 2015 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX

[Narniis]

I have an old pc.

Win xp

2 GB Ram

intel dual core e6500 2.93 GHz

Ati radeon HD 4770 512 MB

 

I have a mirage with phage, but never experienced performance issue with it.

[ivlr3vil]

I didn't believe for one nanosecond that the change to Hall of Mirrors was made because of "performance issues." Mirage has been available for well over a year, and in that time, people's PCs have gotten slightly better on average, not worse. Why now?

 

You forgot about consoles, that's why PhysX was removed. Same reason why Elytron thumper got nerfed and frost globe spam got nerfed to a cap of four.

Edited October 4, 2015 by ivlr3vil

[Kastorius]

One of my clan mates has a computer from 2008, says he never had any performance issues with Mirage.

 

Are you all telling me that PS4s and Xbones are less powerful than a midrange PC from 2008?

 

 

Calling DE a liar is a pretty serious accusation. Its up there with EA, Activision, and Interplay levels of BS. I am sure when the right optimizations or sliders can be made the extra clones will return.

 

It is, but they offered no comment when scores of people wondered aloud why they'd never made a peep about multishot mods until last month, nor when they were called out on the Hydroid "buff" being a blatantly obvious nerf.

 

Declining to answer isn't proof of guilt, but they've made a lot of shady official statements just recently. Even amongst the devs themselves there's tension about some of these controversial changes that they know players probably aren't going to like.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Kastorius

[Syln]

I've been playing Mag for a long time and I've never Pulled an enemy through a wall.  Greedy Pull is the only ability that pulled loot through walls (besides Carrier/Prime)

 

Thanks for the clarification though, was looking for that post.

OO unless you have a reach of 5 meter you have already pulled a number of enemy equivalent to the population  of a small country through  wall ;D

[traybong111]

One of my clan mates has a computer from 2008, says he never had any performance issues with Mirage.

 

Are you all telling me that PS4s and Xbones are less powerful than a midrange PC from 2008?

 

I have a friend who has a fairly decent rig and he says his fps drops when 2 Mirages join. He also has a unicorn in his garage. Must be true because it's anecdotal. 

 

If you don't have a problem then good for you. The fact of the matter is, there were still a lot of players reporting frame rate and performance issues when they were clients and had a Mirage join. DE has to oil the squeaky wheels. 

 

Seriously, this isn't some malicious scheme from DE or some other players to nerf Mirage, the rage is so knee-jerk and childish (if it's bad for me then it must be someone being mean specifically to me! kind of mentality) it's embarrassing to watch. 

[(PSN)kira4715]

Well op i can understand the frustration with the recent nerfs this thread does nothing but bring out the white knights who think they know game balance

[Kastorius]

 

I have a friend who has a fairly decent rig and he says his fps drops when 2 Mirages join. He also has a unicorn in his garage. Must be true because it's anecdotal. 

 

If you don't have a problem then good for you. The fact of the matter is, there were still a lot of players reporting frame rate and performance issues when they were clients and had a Mirage join. DE has to oil the squeaky wheels. 

 

Anecdotal evidence goes both ways, and there are plenty of squeaky wheels that DE chooses not to oil when it behooves them. They don't have to do anything.

 

As I've said, Hall of Mirrors is by no means the most performance-affecting Warframe ability or set of abilities. You and others like you may choose to ignore or downplay this fact as you like.

 

In any event, nothing I say will change their minds, and I can pretty much guarantee Hall of Mirrors won't be restored once they "implement some sliders" or whatever. It's done and over with.

[Kaisty]

Balance what? You don't even have a good example.

Loki invis god mode is still there, switch teleport troll is still there.

Valkyr already has a god mode and she got 2 skill serious buffed at once recently.

Frost got buffed while Limbo is still being hated.

Bombard missile still tracking you and they have 0.5s reload on their heavy weapon.

Ballista still sniping you while running.

Scorch Osprey still have unlimited stack bomb on your teammate's corpse.

Nullifier got buffed along with more annoying Corpus enemies added.

Ancient's disgusting ripline and Toxic/Fire aura are still hitting you in all direction.

Boltor Prime still available for noobs doing brainless shooting.

Latron and bows still garbage against nullifiers.

Reduced grind is still a lie while more RNG/Argon required for crafting.

Hydroid and many more frames are still in garbage-tier and now Mag is becoming one of them.

Mirage got "balanced" because of performance issue but new void map gives you more framerate drop.

Description of charger "weak claw" is still there while liset capacity was changed to 3x in a short time.

Updates and hotfixes still have stealth and ambiguous changes, players still have to fully rely on wiki for information.

 

The problem is why DE nerf things in priority which they didn't even harm the game, when there's far more important issues left unfixed (like the bug existed for 2 years huh?).

OR YOU JUST USE YOUR FAVORITE LOKI MASTERRACE ALL THE TIME SO THE NERF NEVER AFFECT YOU?

DE still got 3 month of stated "Year of quality". Better defend them more and one day DE would make you unable to shoot or move. IMO obviously DE didn't learn anything from vivergate.

You mad bro? Maybe you should take a step back from the game and calm down first before you start flinging a "You use Loki Master race!" line at folks. Second, I didn't actually defend them, more like pointed out that DE is trying something instead of just adding things and leaving more and more broken without caring about the game. Third, you forget that since DE is going to add more shiny things to keep the vets from leaving, they don't have the option of just having a few months of  nothing but patches and fixes.

 

While I do agree with some of the things you listed (especially the RNG problems, Bombard and other mob issues) you forget that trolling will ALWAYS be in any game that involved multiplayer and abilities that can affect teammates. Loki switch teleporting and trolling folks, Vauban's Bounce pads everywhere, Limbo's Banishing folks, Valkyr's ripline all over the place, etc... will be part of the game unless DE removes the option, which (once removed) will remove the option of synergy for some group playstyles as well as those who use the skills to help players in need that get stuck.

 

So do everyone a favor please and read any and all future posts through before getting hyped and lumping folks into the "apologist" bin. Many of us both criticize and defend DE because at the end of the day we realize that the folks doing the "balancing" and providing the game we play are HUMAN. How they deal with the bugs and issues are left up to debate, but still they are doing something be it GOOD or ATROCIOUS depending on the players point of view.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

One of my clan mates has a computer from 2008, says he never had any performance issues with Mirage.

Are you all telling me that PS4s and Xbones are less powerful than a midrange PC from 2008?

It is, but they offered no comment when scores of people wondered aloud why they'd never made a peep about multishot mods until last month, nor when they were called out on the Hydroid "buff" being a blatantly obvious nerf.

Declining to answer isn't proof of guilt, but they've made a lot of shady official statements just recently. Even amongst the devs themselves there's tension about some of these controversial changes that they know players probably aren't going to like.

That's the thing, not everyone agrees with you or how you characterize the rebalances. You are not on a righteous crusade, you are on a manic tirade. It isn't obvious that anything wrong was done at all. Just what DE thinks is best for their game at the time. And sometimes it's not always the best move. When that is the case, they need clear critique, not foul BS. Edited October 4, 2015 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

DE has always been rather poor at balancing Warframe, both with buffs and nerfs. We frequently see massive over-nerfs reducing things like the Vulklok to complete unusability, and insane over-buffs to things like Hysteria, which can now indefinitely remove 100% of all possible threat from any mission without Nullifiers, and 99.9% of threat from any mission with them. Before a balance change is made, it really needs to be thoroughly playtested to make sure it doesn't make anything too broken or too useless.

Edited October 4, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[Acos]

Multishot was a bug that, at the time, seemed okay because power creep had not grown as exponentially as it has. They're revisiting it now because they feel the amount of damage primaries do is an outlier that needs to be fixed. Multishot would probably still be getting addressed whether or not it's original implementation was an error or not. 

You arm chair game developers should actually try making something one day instead of coming up with theories on how it works and then acting all informed. 

[MyungWol]

Warframe Nerf 

 

Thats the mentality in playing this game so far.

 

Outcome a warframe but not too long later it is being nerfed.

 

Same for weapons.

 

All formas spent to make it more powerful becomes comes to nought because of this nerf mentality in warframe.

 

It is really frustrating and makes me quietly angry with each nerf update.

 

Come on just a game why nerf the weapons or warframes or mods.

 

You can just buff up the enemies or mission.

 

Makes  me play warframe less.I have reach rank 20 and nothing much else to do other than wait for the next WARNERF.

 

I have switch over to black desert which has no nerf,better graphics,no host migration,f2P .

 

Most importantly the greatest enemy of Warframe is almost non existent and that is DISCONNECTION in the thick of a mission.

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

Oh boy, another "I don't understand balance so I clearly can do DE's job better" threads.

By that logic, why is DE nerfing/buffing anything at all after it is released? Shouldn't they have a handle of things by now?

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

-snip-

 

The way you choose to define the gameplay and what is essential or beneficial is not the same for everyone. rebalances take in consideration many different issues, perspectives and concerns. I think the disconnection, which are a real problem, are a matter of money. Either DE needs more experts or time on better servers. Either way, its gonna cost more.

[MyungWol]

If you want an answer 

 

By that logic, why is DE nerfing/buffing anything at all after it is released? Shouldn't they have a handle of things by now?

 

If you want an answer let me provide it.

 

They are suffering from paranoia.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

-snip-

 

Warframe went from rapid prototype to alpha, to closed beta, to open beta, in less than a year. Its not using the weak sauce, but cheaper easier to produce MMO engines to make the game, its using an engine equivalent to Unreal. So, the game is released, but its in constant development. I beginning to wonder if your playing games with people here.

[PnOyLeeT]

nerfing < is another way of making such undesirable which makes you focus on other new things

 

example: if MAG is OP then as a starter FRAME u wouldnt have ask for any better

u will not have any desire to replace a starter already OP that can go any level

 

starter frame atm are

Mag

Volt

Excal

 

these 3 can go in high level mission with right moding and right party

 

keep in mind there are 20+ frames and they will keep coming..so nerfing is just another way so you can try other frames and weapons

i guess nerfing is a way for balance or maybe DE's way of telling players ..come on guys try something else :)

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

nerfing < is another way of making such undesirable which makes you focus on other new things

 

example: if MAG is OP then as a starter FRAME u wouldnt have ask for any better

u will not have any desire to replace a starter already OP that can go any level

 

starter frame atm are

Mag

Volt

Excal

 

these 3 can go in high level mission with right moding and right party

 

keep in mind there are 20+ frames and they will keep coming..so nerfing is just another way so you can try other frames and weapons

i guess nerfing is a way for balance or maybe DE's way of telling players ..come on guys try something else :)

That is actually an interesting theory. I don't believe that is what's happening, but it is interesting.

[PnOyLeeT]

That is actually an interesting theory. I don't believe that is what's happening, but it is interesting.

thats what they call..put yourself in their shoes..but to me i always wear flip flops so keep it calm guys..we are all here to play and have fun :)

[(XBOX)DaBoogieMan2741]

Indeed but it seems like people discovered when Gpull was a thing. Mag was my first warframe, and i still play her from time to time ( allthought ive been busy now with mirage and valkyr)

Ontopic: what DE is doing is balance, balance is nessecery for all games, despite you like it or not. I just hope to see a nerf coming towards bombards, they are ridicoulus atm, same with Ancient Healer

i have no real issues with bombads, ancients or those heavy enemies... just gotta prepare for long term or high level enemies.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

 

Warframe Nerf 

 

Thats the mentality in playing this game so far.

 

Outcome a warframe but not too long later it is being nerfed.

 

Same for weapons.

 

All formas spent to make it more powerful becomes comes to nought because of this nerf mentality in warframe.

 

It is really frustrating and makes me quietly angry with each nerf update.

 

Come on just a game why nerf the weapons or warframes or mods.

 

You can just buff up the enemies or mission.

 

Makes  me play warframe less.I have reach rank 20 and nothing much else to do other than wait for the next WARNERF.

 

I have switch over to black desert which has no nerf,better graphics,no host migration,f2P .

 

Most importantly the greatest enemy of Warframe is almost non existent and that is DISCONNECTION in the thick of a mission.

 

I'm about ready to vomit up my internal organs after how many times I've had to explain this to people.

 

If you think all nerfs are evil, then you have no place in any discussion regarding game balance whatsoever, because you fail to comprehend one of the most basic principles of game design. A developer saying all nerfs are evil is like a carpenter saying their hammer is evil. Nerfs are no more evil than buffs; a hammer is no more evil than a screwdriver. They're just used for different things.

 

You don't hate all nerfs. That's just ridiculous and childish. If you denied DE the ability to never nerf anything again, the game would become completely unplayable horrifically quickly.

 

You hate poorly applied nerfs. If I was to hit someone in the face with a hammer, that would be a poor way to use a tool. If I was to nerf something into the dirt and make it completely useless, that would be a poor way to use a tool. If I hit someone in the face with a hammer, the hammer is not the one at fault.

 

Buffs can be misused as well. If a buff is too extreme, everything except whatever was buffed becomes obsolete. I can nerf something into the dirt and make it useless; I can buff something into the sky and make everything else useless. I can hit someone in the face with a hammer; I can stab someone in the eye with a screwdriver. All are poor applications of perfectly okay tools.

 

If we want to have any sort of sensible discussion on game design whatsoever, we first have to acknowledge that it's actually is possible for something to be too powerful.

Edited October 5, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3