Mesa Changes (Buff)

[Conipoeia]

Ok the problem with MESA at the moment is that SHE IS USELESS ... EVEN MORE USELESS THEN OBERON. First... she was amazing, maybe of the best warframes that were on the moment of release until the moment they nerfed her really hard with a reflect bullet to the face and to be in a coma till now ... so basicaly they need to bring back the original release day MESA so she can fit back in the ways everyone used to play her ... and there is really no logic explaining what a bal·lis·tic bat·ter·y is. I can tell you a really short but awesome story about Mesa and why Limbo is not that usefull atm. Simply everything went from Mesa going all awesome and perfect as a fresh warframe and limbo having a really nice friend for the defence mission and having a nice combo AND now After the NEFR HAMMER STRIKES AGAIN Mesa is useless and limbo is lonely ... they only need to bring back the Release Mesa and everything will be good :) Back in the days Me and Lexer here made a build about Mesa and Limbo. T4 defence till wave 60 duo ... everything was perfect the combo droped on wave 65 and everything was good ... Mesa was good and Limbo too . Now i see a Mesa and i wanna cry how useless she is and how i dont have a reason to play limbo atm ... everyone seems to hate limbo because they cant pick up the awesome alloy plate ... AND NOTE TO YOU SIR ! DO NOT SEARCH THE WIKI FOR what a balistic battery is :)  Warframe and real life are not something to be compared as there would not be any logical way to explain why  Hysteria is making you invulnerable or why a harpoon gun is not killing everyone even if you shoot him in the face from a point blank range :) Now back to the topic - BRING THE RELEASE DAY MESA AND JUST LEAVE IT LIKE IT WAS ! SHE HAS A GOOD DROP OUT AT LEVEL 100 ENEMYS AND SHE NEEDS A RHINO AND A VALKYR TO DO WELL TILL LEVEL 200 ! IT WAS GOOD BACK THEN AND I WANT TO PLAY MY BLOODY LIMBO :( !!!!

Oh my...

 

Anyway, as a Mesa main, I'd just like to voice my opinion on it's current state:

Ballistic Battery is useless, yes. Shooting Gallery is not much better, but Shattershield and Peacemaker make up for these shortcomings. Shattershield gives Mesa great survivability, and Peacekeeper is excellent DPS (honestly people, just move your mouse around.) Now just have a decent build, and find some support frames that synergize well with these abilities. You might be surprised how far you'll go (Mesa+Slowva+Frost+EV=T4D Easymode.)

Basically, the frame is fine as it is, and pretty much every idea I've read in this thread sounds terrible. Sorry.

[DarkCobalt]

I think Ballistic Battery would be fine if you could cast it instantly without interruption. The only thing preventing me from using Ballistic Battery as much as I want to is the fact that Mesa stops and does an animation each time you cast it, interrupting everything and it's just plain awkward to use.

 

Shooting Gallery needs a bit of a touch-up as it feels like you shortchanged yourself and everyone else as the number of members increases, but why the nerf to the gun-jamming? The utility best part about Shooting Gallery, essentially become a temporary Disarm Loki. In my opinion it should be changed to emit an aura around the ally so that 1) Enemies' guns are jammed, 2) Allies' guns are buffed (by a smaller percentage than the person who has the aura on them), and 3) Increased Reload/Holster/Switch speed. The aura will then bounce between players, and in this way at least allies aren't completely losing the buff if they're near the teammate who has the aura.

 

Shattershield is fine, because Shattershield.

 

Mesa's ult in my opinion is just a more thematic way of popping enemies, and it should stay that way. Staying stationary is a thematic thing to match the high-noon all-out stand-off style. That being said, it sucks later on when she gets one shot for staying still, and her ult scales terribly into late game, so I think that a few tweaks are needed help the ability scale into late game while still keeping the essence the same:

1) Allow Mesa to cast other abilities. This will allow her to at maintain team buffs, a bit of protection, and most of all, Ballistic Battery! Combo'ing Ballistic Battery into Peacemaker, along with the previously mentioned change of the ability not interrupting ongoing actions, can help her damage tremendously.

2) Pistol mods. Most of the proposed changes for Mesa include this for obvious reasons. It's part of every other Warframe's ability weapons (even Ash, whose Bladestorm attacks faster if he has a high attack speed melee on him), and those Warframes get huge DPS boots when they use their ultimates, Mesa should get this as well with her Peacemakers.

3) The whole ring thing is a bit strange. Personally I think the radius of the ring should be changeable, hold the aim button to gradually shrink it and hold the alt-fire to gradually widen it. Give it more control and allow the player to choose whether they want to use Mesa as a sniper or a crowd-wiper. Boosting the Power Range stat will give you a wider variety of control, allowing you to open the ring wider and shrink the ring further for more pin-point aim. The rate of change of the radius should be normalized regardless of Power Range, like maybe 3 seconds to go from the largest possible to the smallest possible and vice versa (just estimating, arbitrarily chose a number for example purposes).

 

Allowing Mesa to move while using Peacemakers is a bit of a stretch. She's got a ridiculous amount of auto aim and her final attack speed is ridiculous compared to most guns. Staying stationary keeps the theme and keeps the ability in check, and personally I don't mind that at all so long as I can feel like I'm a badass gunslinger.

 

 

[Thebel]

Oh my...

 

Anyway, as a Mesa main, I'd just like to voice my opinion on it's current state:

Ballistic Battery is useless, yes. Shooting Gallery is not much better, but Shattershield and Peacemaker make up for these shortcomings. Shattershield gives Mesa great survivability, and Peacekeeper is excellent DPS (honestly people, just move your mouse around.) Now just have a decent build, and find some support frames that synergize well with these abilities. You might be surprised how far you'll go (Mesa+Slowva+Frost+EV=T4D Easymode.)

Basically, the frame is fine as it is, and pretty much every idea I've read in this thread sounds terrible. Sorry.

Move your mouse around? Know what would be better dps? Basically any other gun and that normal gun also comes with sweet things like elemental effects. Peace maker is literally an inferior set of guns that function no different than normal ones with more draw backs like being stationary and losing status effects. Replace that Mesa with mirage, Excalibur, heck even sayrn and you'll have to try even less. Mesa has no purpose in a party, and has neither the dps nor support to replace a majority of frames.

[Zoig]

honestly speaking, the staying stationary bit just flat out doesn't work for mesa and in endgame that is gonna destroy her. I do like the idea of peacemaker inheriting secondary mods, and i think they would be better if they were a accurate high firerate semi auto pair of handguns, with its gimmick being that shots that miss will ricochet off the surface they hit and fly at the nearest enemy. i dont think using energy per shot would work unless we went into decimals, though.

 

I cant really speak for the other abilities, I don't have any idea for those but it really should be obvious that peacemaker needs something to help mesa catch up to everyone else in terms of endgame potential. I like mesa but i never use her or see her and that in itself should be a warning sign.

[YasaiTsume]

Hate to sound cynical, but I've just about had enough with seeing the textbook arguement that "Mesa's Ult is useless now"

 

She is a frame, with an Aimbot, that fires as long as yu can hold 1 button down, without the need to aim, in a 50m range. 

Yu guys should be glad DE even let Mesa keep her Aimbotting skills.

[i_Lex]

Oh my...

 

Anyway, as a Mesa main, I'd just like to voice my opinion on it's current state:

Ballistic Battery is useless, yes. Shooting Gallery is not much better, but Shattershield and Peacemaker make up for these shortcomings. Shattershield gives Mesa great survivability, and Peacekeeper is excellent DPS (honestly people, just move your mouse around.) Now just have a decent build, and find some support frames that synergize well with these abilities. You might be surprised how far you'll go (Mesa+Slowva+Frost+EV=T4D Easymode.)

Basically, the frame is fine as it is, and pretty much every idea I've read in this thread sounds terrible. Sorry.

ShatterShield isn't even close at "making it up" Although the ability is nice the rest of the abilities shouldn't be useless...

[i_Lex]

Hate to sound cynical, but I've just about had enough with seeing the textbook arguement that "Mesa's Ult is useless now"

 

She is a frame, with an Aimbot, that fires as long as yu can hold 1 button down, without the need to aim, in a 50m range. 

Yu guys should be glad DE even let Mesa keep her Aimbotting skills.

45m* and btw 15 sec drain on base..... that's just horrible... that means with a max primed flow you'll have 425 /15 = 28 seconds of pm.

 Not even mentioning the dmg falloff at high lvls and the fact it doesnt use mods of your secondary

Edited February 3, 2016 by sniperbro-captian-PS

[Thebel]

Hate to sound cynical, but I've just about had enough with seeing the textbook arguement that "Mesa's Ult is useless now"

 

She is a frame, with an Aimbot, that fires as long as yu can hold 1 button down, without the need to aim, in a 50m range. 

Yu guys should be glad DE even let Mesa keep her Aimbotting skills.

 

Do you even use Mesa? Are you telling me that once the FoV ring has shrunk it's that much different than using a normal gun? Because as far as I can see once it's that small, aimbot or not it's basically the same damn thing.

[True-Doom]

So I recently posted my ideas for a rework on the wiki (cause I'm dumb and whatever), but I figured this'd be a better home for it. Hell, maybe DE will notice. I'll try to keep it short. (I failed to keep it short).

 

First of all, I love Mesa's original style sans the 1 and 4. It was cool and all, but... eh. Peacemaker has not been debuffed because it's useless in comparison to the old version, but rather because she's not a useless frame. I main her and I hardly feel I'm helping the team with anything but her 2. And thus here are my ideas.

 

1: Ballistic Battery. The reason we hate this power is because it's a pain to use. It triggers slow, it charges a ton of damage, KINDOF, and worse, it deals it all to one enemy. You missed the shot? You wasted your time. And if you needed it, you made a mistake in the choice to fight that way.

BB should instead be a timed ability that ramps damage up with every successive shot, and DELIVERS on every shot. It would effectively cause a rifle to deal 5x damage near the end of its lifespan of 10-15 seconds. You could balance this by having the damage be capped at certain seconds. Say 5-10-15. That way you couldn't have someone turn Soma P into a deathcannon for more than 5 seconds ;D. And if you so desired, make the duration max out at 20 seconds with full mods maximized. Oh, and if you wanna keep the animation for it, I suppose with this version it'd be worth it.

 

2: Shooting Gallery. Surprisingly I'm FINE with this. Because I never used it for that cruddy 25% buff. Idk why that's what people seem to focus on. Its purpose is jamming weapons. However I did like the idea that you can control if it switches to players or not someone mentioned above. That would let me, for instance, notice that player 3 is getting ruined- cycle SG to him by tapping the power 3 times. Full duration on that guy. And if I choose to focus on me- full SG on me.

 

3: ShatterShield. Love hate relationship here. I'll make it simple. Feeling badass at low levels, casually strolling through gunfire? Cool. Getting oneshot at higher levels. Embarrassing. the point is, 95% of 100k damage is 5k damage, more than enough to merc any kind of mods you have on her. So it eventually becomes useless. The fix? Change the underlying rules of it. This is gonna go a bit meta- see the idea is that Shattershield is emitted directly from her armor as opposed to the normal shield. Thus, the normal shield doesn't benefit. HOWEVER, change Shattershield to be 95% reduction alongside a maximum damage received cap of 5% hp. This means regardless of your hp or your shield, it'll take at least 20 shots to kill you. This means at lower levels you'll still experience that badass feel of hardly taking any damage (think a max armor Valkyr) to your health, but at high levels you never get oneshot. I like. You like? You like?? You liiiiike... ;D

 

4: Peacemaker. The biggie. Used to be a turret that was cheap. Bad. Now is a turret that becomes unnecessarily superaccurate outside of our own control and does so little damage in comparison to other frames and their reworks that it's just sad. I only use it cause it's cool. Not because DPS or team assistance. And thus here are my ideas. 

MOBILITY.  Allow Mesa to move, if anything at 10-20% less speed, when using PM. Excaliber has free reign to sprint around and swing that deathblade, so why is the "fastest gunslinger in the stars" stuck in place? (I do understand that the idea is that of a Westerner standing still and unloading a revolver. Doesn't work for Warframe's gameplay, unfortunately). 

AIM is good! But let US control the reticule. Let us choose whether to spray like a turret or precisely blaze a target full of space lead. Perhaps with the reload and melee button, which are unusable during Peacemaking.

DAMAGE  is not much of an issue. Pistol mod buffs would be amazing to gain, though. Moreover, the damage she deals is nothing in comparison to some other frames from what I can tell. Also I know you guys say the ramping up doesn't reset, but it totally does the moment she stops constantly shooting.

ENERGY drain isn't really an issue as is. I thought the change would cause a problem with duration focus, but it's fine frankly. If anything please don't  link shots with energy drain.

I call this concept New Western Mesa. #NWM or whatever.

 

And suddenly Mesa is useful again. She can deal out far more DPS in a moment with BB, she can support teammates directly with control over SG, she no longer has to worry about burdening teammates with insta-death at endgame content, and finally FINALLY she can be a true gunslinger and roam the area, popping people in the face like a boss. Er rather, in the chest. And moreover, her damage would hold into endgame, and the player could choose whether to give the hate to one enemy. Talking SG, BB, PM and in 10 seconds that damage is downright scary.

Come on DE. Joo liek? Joo liiiiek. Don't make me beg, now.

Edited February 6, 2016 by True-Doom

[Specific.Zod]

I posted a rework of my idea in other post (I'm suspended), all of her skill really make no sense with her description "fast hand and quick reflexes" except auto-aim bot skill.

And add an aim bot into a defining skill of a frame is just killing it.

If you ever watch and understand a gun duel (which is theme for her skill), who has faster hand is the one that live. Not moving or jumping around like a monkey (looking at you Excalibur).

[i_Lex]

I posted a rework of my idea in other post (I'm suspended), all of her skill really make no sense with her description "fast hand and quick reflexes" except auto-aim bot skill.

And add an aim bot into a defining skill of a frame is just killing it.

If you ever watch and understand a gun duel (which is theme for her skill), who has faster hand is the one that live. Not moving or jumping around like a monkey (looking at you Excalibur).

whut....?

[i_Lex]

to point things out here. Everyone that says Mesa is ok. IS WRONG.  Because she isn't. the only ability thats worth to even build the frame is her 3rd.

[TheCookieMeister]

Firstly, I want to mention: I absolutely -adore- Mesa. It's the only frame I ever bought with platinum instead of going the slow way and farming it, and I never once regretted it. (Okay, I lie, I actually sorta did once. XD She turned out to be so awesome, I felt guilty for being as cheap as to buy her instead of investing some effort into asquiring. I got over that eventually.) Discountinuing my starter frame (Volt) which screwes the statistic, there is no other frame which is even close to 35% of time she was used by me. That did not change much since the update.

 

That said, the change left me with mixed feelings. On one hand, the aimbot ability, as convenient as it was, was indeed way too ridiculous and pretty much screamed for a nerf. I like that part. I like the part that n00bs and afk-farmers have no overwhelmingly OP reason to use her anymore. I don't like being too mainstream. :P

 

(Additionally, it stopped overshadowing her other three abilities, and made me see that it's totally worth it building her for duration instead of efficiency. <.< But shhh.)

 

On the other hand, I dislike it as well. I didn't quite like how Peacemaker worked, but now I like it even less. Like some others said before me, as it is right now it is useless. Completely, utterly redundant - if I want to shot someone in a cone, it is much easier, faster, and energy-efficient to do using my Soma. Especially on my computer, which doesn't always provide the minimum of 30 FPS required for Peacemaker to work correctly. Additionally, given this FPS problem, trying to spin around trying to catch everyone also doesn't quite work. Considering that I do use her other three abilities, having an unused button on my most favoritest frame is upsetting.

 

However, I regret to say I don't really have a good idea on how to make Peacemaker good again. Quite possibly she needs an entirely different mechanic for her 4th, but the only thoughts I can share on the matter is that it needs to be something that supports her current tank/CC role.

 

To answer to the opening post: those changes are sorts of... meh. Some of it could work? But don't touch Shooting Gallery's jamming mechanic. Keep it shhhh, but it's actually sort of OP, and different from Peacemaker it's in a good way. It's practically Radial Blind - okay, with smaller stun time and less reliable - but as a freaking BUFF that goes with you wherever you go. It is truly something in solo missions. It is still awesome in groups, although I really do wish it would stop jumping: as cool as that jumping mechanic sounds (I imagine there was this back-to-back Tenno action in mind when DE made that ability) it doesn't translate well to gameplay.

 

Oh and Ballistic Battery needs to be one-handed, or whatever was the term for abilities that don't interrupt shooting. Having to pause to reapply it detracts from the decent DPS increase it otherwise provides.

hey, what about something like the Dead Eye Targeting in Red Dead Redeption, where you enter a zen state, can pick and choose 6 (maybe 12 cause 2 revolvers) and do insane amounts of damage to those specific enemies. it could be modded by pistol mods AND rifle mods at the same time, as to be able to provide its power. maybe it would even have a charge period, where mesa would auto-reload her guns? it would turn mesa into a true sharpshooter, as wild-westerners had to also watch there ammo very closely, but their pistols generally ended targets in one hit. thoughts?

[EinheriarJudith]

to point things out here. Everyone that says Mesa is ok. IS WRONG.  Because she isn't. the only ability thats worth to even build the frame is her 3rd.

excuse me? try using ANY launcher  and Ballistic battery its like a mini nuke going off in that area with 100% status if augment. i dont know how many times shooting gallery has save my squads life and my own when needing to recast shatter shield. the comment you just made shows you in fact know nothing about mesa.

[Thebel]

excuse me? try using ANY launcher  and Ballistic battery its like a mini nuke going off in that area with 100% status if augment. i dont know how many times shooting gallery has save my squads life and my own when needing to recast shatter shield. the comment you just made shows you in fact know nothing about mesa.

 

Ballistic is clunky, should just have an activation cost and passively store damage as opposed to using twice.

 

Shooting gallery is a wonky skill, higher duration makes it less effective for CC and low duration makes it junky for a damage buff and hurt her kit immensely, let's not forget the rotating buff which is really promotes solo vs squad.

 

Shatter shields would be nice to be able to freely recast but having it run out in a crowd is a player issue, running to cover to recast is the logical thing, it's probably THE best skill in her tool kit, 95% damage reduction to projectiles and can redirect bombard missiles.

 

Peacemaker is awkward with the FoV shrinking, high speed shooting assumes you constantly have a target in sight but it's hard to keep up with a tiny circle, if anything just a larger base ring would help greatly with a energy reduction cost.

 

 

It's not that Mesa is bad like Limbo, Hydroid, and Zeph. It's just that she needs some QoL things to make her a more usable/desirable frame.

 

 

And before anyone goes all defensive over those other 3 frames mentioned, you have to admit they legitimately have some issues with their worth in a squad be it support or offensive wise and could also use some QoL too, probably with more priority than Mesa honestly.

[EinheriarJudith]

~snip~

i wont disagree with QoL. limbo is god of rescue and corpus spy and crucial at protecting targets in sortie Defense. zephyr is great at some things as well like hijack, interception, mobile defense, deception, and sabotage, hydroid is is a bit of a weird one but i dont consider him to be bad definitely strong against infested. each frame has a use and while some need QoL/Tweak/Rework they are all viable.

[Lexer1231]

I am all about nerfs that are thought trough didnt hear a peep from me about Gmag nerf not one Volt shield+Beam range nerf(still dont know how dmg on Shield works at all headscratch)

But making Peacemaker Scale from all 4 stats in the game that we mod for, just test it yourself it scales with range, power strenght, power efficiency, power duration, is just stupid (AND BELEAVE  ME I AM KEEPING THE GOOD TONE GOING USEING THE WORD STUPID!!).This is a clasic case of bad warframe design ither delete or rework her :( and I know not one of the devs is currently looking into mesa at all cuz of Cats and the freakin suposed "Rework of Mag" anounced in the last dev stream (I lost faith in the ability of devs to release thought trou content i eaven have a new loadout called Rip Mag ✞) cuz out of the last big warframe changes only 1 i see as playable at 100% after rework is Excalibur. Let me ask this how many people dont have 1 of these 5 warframes and can give me a valid reason not to have it: Valkir,Frost,Trinity,Loki(master race dont you dare tuch him DE), Excalibur? Dont beleave me chek this here allso leave a vote!!

 

For a Person who played mesa from day one the only thing whe whanted than is to reduce the ridiculous 50m range to 25m even 15m (that is radius) and the ability to shoot down all projectiles fired from enemies (ogris rokets lanka snipes etc) and increase the base dmg a little + making it scale from pistol and dual pistol mods that is it! And you can't tell me this dosen't sound reasonable.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Lexer1231
PS I hope some one gives opinion on this!!

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, Lexer1231 said:

For a Person who played mesa from day one the only thing whe whanted than is to reduce the ridiculous 50m range to 25m even 15m (that is radius) and the ability to shoot down all projectiles fired from enemies (ogris rokets lanka snipes etc) and increase the base dmg a little + making it scale from pistol and dual pistol mods that is it! And you can't tell me this dosen't sound reasonable.

it is more than reasonable. DE should also move all warframes away from needing 4 stats in any build. 

[hanross]

mesa should be reworked again she is included in junks after DE make her baby mesa

[hanross]

On 10/4/2015 at 9:34 PM, Buzkyl said:

 

 

She has both Shatter-shield and Shooting Gallery to protect her.

 

 

Shatter-shields gives her 95% DR to all rage attacks and it's augments allows for CC  reflects while firing.

Shooting gallery proctects her from close range attacks by stunning them, allowing her to have time to kill them.

 

Both of these skills are positively affected by increased duration as well as power strength, coincidentally, both of these with the current change make peacemaker a better skill as  the drain rate has be reduced without harming her other skills.

 

 

2 of her skills increase her suvivability while in peacemaker dramatically, when Mesa is no longer using shooting gallery she is vulnerable to melee attacks, before, now you simply turn your mouse and shoot them down.  It also leads me to question how much you know of her other skills when you say she can't be used to solo, considering her shooting gallery will remain with her for it's full duration.

 

 

People who honestly believe this was a nerf are the very reason the skill had to be change, to discourage mindless play.If turning your moyuse is a chore, then you're being lazy, to put it simply. Nothing is topping you from turning your mouse around and having mesa fire at everything in a 360 degree radius.

ignore this this is all joke ( Especially last paragraph)

Edited February 29, 2016 by hanross

[i_Lex]

7 hours ago, hanross said:

ignore this this is all joke ( Especially last paragraph)

yupp

 

[EinheriarJudith]

i keep seeing over and over again that warframe argument about scaling poorly into high level.  Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
DE needs to rework what endgame is then you might see the frames need very minor changes if any at all.

Edit: my mistake there is no such thing as endgame in a game that has lore that isnt fully written out and is still in development.

Edited February 29, 2016 by EinheriarJudith

[Terryyyaki]

BUFF MESA!

you can no longer mod strength and you need to scan for target -_-

[ashrah]

mesa 4 now is cluster.....in class of oberon ulty.....no comment on rework...

[Synpai]

I'm just gonna leave this here:

FYI, It's been stated multiple times that Mesa will be getting the Excal/Valk Treatment for Peacemaker, so probably a good idea to take it out of the equation for now (and it's not THAT bad...it could be Chroma)

Really her first two abilities need work. Even applying her 2 to the whole team makes it seem lackluster and also invalidates her augment.

Since they have probably only partitioned enough resources and time to "tweak" (as stated on the Dev Stream) Mesa, there probably wont be huge functionality changes. I do hope they go back and update her other abilities before though to make her play more fluid.