Valkyr's Hysteria Is Not Overpowered.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

What gets me is they all whine to "nerf this and that" but when it gets nerfed it becomes "revert nerfs please de..."

You should try reading the nerf suggestions sometimes.  Most of them propose very reasonable changes.

 

There are a lot of things that I wanted reasonably nerfed, but DE goes super-omega-over-nerf on them. That's why people ask for the changes to be reverted. Contrary to (apparently) popular belief, there exists a level between over-powered and nerfed-into-uselessness.  That middle ground is what we should be shooting for.

 

Yes, I think Hysteria needs nerfed, and yes, I will cry out for it to be reverted if the skill is nerfed into uselessness because, again, there exists a middle ground.

 

{MY SOLUTION: Hysteria should have invincibility removed.  It should have damage reduction, an additional damage buff, and attack speed buffs added to it. The lower your health the higher your buffs should be.  You should only heal when you channel for your attacks so you have full control over how low you want your HP and how high you want your buffs.}

[Weltraumfred]

Exactly. We kind of have an excluded middle here.

[Mak_Gohae]

What gets me is they all whine to "nerf this and that" but when it gets nerfed it becomes "revert nerfs please de..."

 

different groups of people posting.

The board is not one single hive mind.

Some people want something while other want another thing.

[Technologic141]

This whole topic is not about OP valkyr but about broken players ego. Most of players say "god mode" one of you say he play 60 min permanent hysteria. Sure for players MR16+ with maxed mods you can make all frames OP (yes mag too). But for all other players with low mods, MR, skill its blessing. They can handle fight with high MR players in events or endless game modes. They no longer watch dead camera and wait until "PRO" MR 16+ end they run. With other frames where they cant survive, with valkyr they can and after 17.5 buff they can help kill few bad guys. I see positives here. Sure if you play like id1ot with permanent hysteria and scream "iam the master" its your fault. Dont blame game, only yourself.

And why its about EGO? Because i know why haters hate new hysteria. In hard game some of MR15+ did mistake and fall in revive. Some low MR0-7 guy with valkyr revive him, but after few sec. he fall again and revived again by valkyr. When they go extraction zone same story. In this moment MR15+ guys became angry and think "iam the law, iam the PRO, this is bulsh1t, Histeria is F*****g OP" then go here and scream for total nerf. Some players just cant hadle how they look when they play with low MR and they are revive him more that once.
I know exactly know how bad i feel when i deal tons of damage but they reviving me.

Hate histeria/ valkyr? Dont play with her! its simple. Just dont nerf another frame because your EGO can hadle it.

[Weltraumfred]

Hate histeria/ valkyr? Dont play with her! its simple. Just dont nerf another frame because your EGO can hadle it.

 

So. I like Valkyr (I have both her and Saryn at 30% total game time) and don't like current Hysteria (cuz I think it's boring). What now? And how does my Ego factor in here?

[OfficerBeepsky]

You should try reading the nerf suggestions sometimes.  Most of them propose very reasonable changes.

 

There are a lot of things that I wanted reasonably nerfed, but DE goes super-omega-over-nerf on them. That's why people ask for the changes to be reverted. Contrary to (apparently) popular belief, there exists a level between over-powered and nerfed-into-uselessness.  That middle ground is what we should be shooting for.

 

Yes, I think Hysteria needs nerfed, and yes, I will cry out for it to be reverted if the skill is nerfed into uselessness because, again, there exists a middle ground.

 

{MY SOLUTION: Hysteria should have invincibility removed.  It should have damage reduction, an additional damage buff, and attack speed buffs added to it. The lower your health the higher your buffs should be.  You should only heal when you channel for your attacks so you have full control over how low you want your HP and how high you want your buffs.}

Problem: This is just as immortal. Rage would cause you to regenerate the energy you're losing.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

Sure for players MR16+ with maxed mods you can make all frames OP (yes mag too). But for all other players with low mods, MR, skill its blessing. They can handle fight with high MR players in events or endless game modes. They no longer watch dead camera and wait until "PRO" MR 16+ end they run. With other frames where they cant survive, with valkyr they can and after 17.5 buff they can help kill few bad guys. I see positives here. Sure if you play like id1ot with permanent hysteria and scream "iam the master" its your fault. Dont blame game, only yourself.

 

But that's exactly the problem with Hysteria. It's way too easy to be OP with it. And no, it's not good for new players. It's the same as saying that giving new players Boltor Primes is good, because they can clear the entire star chart without any challenge or actually learning to play the game. Although Hysteria takes it to another level.

 

It also makes the natural progression completely broken, like at the moment as players grow stronger (getting new equipment, upgrading their mods etc) they can take on new, harder missions, ocassionally reaching the top tier Void missions. With Valkyr, they can skip ALL of it, and just go to any type of mission with any gear, because it allows them to withstand any kind of damage and deal top equipment level of damage. It's not good for the game. It's not good for new players, because it just discourages them from natural progression and just forces them to get Valkyr to be good. Also they would never want to switch back from Valkyr, because they would actually have to learn to avoid taking damage and building more powerful weapons.

[OfficerBeepsky]

But that's exactly the problem with Hysteria. It's way too easy to be OP with it. And no, it's not good for new players. It's the same as saying that giving new players Boltor Primes is good, because they can clear the entire star chart without any challenge or actually learning to play the game. Although Hysteria takes it to another level.

 

It also makes the natural progression completely broken, like at the moment as players grow stronger (getting new equipment, upgrading their mods etc) they can take on new, harder missions, ocassionally reaching the top tier Void missions. With Valkyr, they can skip ALL of it, and just go to any type of mission with any gear, because it allows them to withstand any kind of damage and deal top equipment level of damage. It's not good for the game. It's not good for new players, because it just discourages them from natural progression and just forces them to get Valkyr to be good. Also they would never want to switch back from Valkyr, because they would actually have to learn to avoid taking damage and building more powerful weapons.

There you go again, using that word.

Overpowered doesn't apply in warframe.

Past a certain point in survival, it comes down to straight up player skill, because if you drop out for even a second, any stray bullet will kill you.

 

And once you hit that point, you're fighting against the clock, because as armor starts to scale higher and higher, your damage drops further and further.

Edited October 14, 2015 by OfficerBeepsky

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

This whole topic is not about OP valkyr but about broken players ego. Most of players say "god mode" one of you say he play 60 min permanent hysteria. Sure for players MR16+ with maxed mods you can make all frames OP (yes mag too). But for all other players with low mods, MR, skill its blessing. They can handle fight with high MR players in events or endless game modes. They no longer watch dead camera and wait until "PRO" MR 16+ end they run. With other frames where they cant survive, with valkyr they can and after 17.5 buff they can help kill few bad guys. I see positives here. Sure if you play like id1ot with permanent hysteria and scream "iam the master" its your fault. Dont blame game, only yourself.

And why its about EGO? Because i know why haters hate new hysteria. In hard game some of MR15+ did mistake and fall in revive. Some low MR0-7 guy with valkyr revive him, but after few sec. he fall again and revived again by valkyr. When they go extraction zone same story. In this moment MR15+ guys became angry and think "iam the law, iam the PRO, this is bulsh1t, Histeria is F*****g OP" then go here and scream for total nerf. Some players just cant hadle how they look when they play with low MR and they are revive him more that once.

I know exactly know how bad i feel when i deal tons of damage but they reviving me.

Hate histeria/ valkyr? Dont play with her! its simple. Just dont nerf another frame because your EGO can hadle it.

I totally agree. Warframes are unbalanceds for primed mods , super energy capacity change all, histerya receiving dmg is non sense , chroma s better , the same guys crying for nerf will crying in a future when a real hardcore event or mission come... 

[OfficerBeepsky]

Like I said, this issue should be postponed until after the multi-shot/damage changes. Otherwise it's going to end up being redundant. 

Multishot change was cancelled, I believe.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Problem: This is just as immortal. Rage would cause you to regenerate the energy you're losing.

It's not. If you mess up, you die. Take it from a Trinity main.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

There you go again, using that word.

Overpowered doesn't apply in warframe.

Past a certain point in survival, it comes down to straight up player skill, because if you drop out for even a second, any stray bullet will kill you.

 

And once you hit that point, you're fighting against the clock, because as armor starts to scale higher and higher, your damage drops further and further.

Although this doesn't apply to Hysteria, except damage, which is still the highest in the game compared to any weapon or other abilities. In Hysteria you can do whatever you want, unless you walk into the nullifiers bubble (which might not even present in a mission) Other abilities are easy to screw up, yes, but not Hysteria.

[Lesserli]

Great...so after Mesa the next "nerf XYZ because OP!"-frame is Valkyr now? It really seems now that one after one every warframe gets the spotlight where a rising number of the community fills the forum with another nerf thread..and another nerf thread...and another nerf thread until DE take a bow and fulfils the wish.

I disagree with the pro-nerf group again.

What can Valkyr do? Valkyr can last long in a survival mission. Great. What does it mean? The rewards per key ratio is a bit better. The drop tables are broken as hell. Some people have a lot of luck but I know many people who grind endlessly for a single part and waste dozens of keys because the drop chance must be somewhere between 0 to 4 percent.

Yes she is invincible while she has energy but numerous times enemies stopped dropping energy and/or air. At least air will become a problem because the drop chance is too low especially when enemies become high level monsters and take some time to kill.

And still: you need proper mods to get good weapons and warframes. After that you can expect to have a good equipment...what ends in things like Valkyr.

And what happens after the Valkyr nerf? Which frame should come next? Saryn? Ember? We will wait...

[Otis.Driftwood]

Destroying valkyrs ability to revive someone and possibly save the match is not the answer.

Why cant people just be happy and play the game?

My valkyr runs zero shield mods,  zero health and no efficiency mods BUT I DO NOT constantly run around hysteria.

Do I die? YES SOMETIMES.

I personally only use hysteria to get health back or to revive some poor soul that got scrapped.

With my build I have to be super careful to watch my health an added challenge given to myself because I don't mod things like 99% of people

and have been told that I'm not doing it right.

The real issue with Hysteria is people and the way they choose to use it not the ability itself.

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

I can bet , all this genious with miracles suggestions , simply dont play with valkyr or like her , but is ridiculous claim for nerf a ability in a non massive kill skill, what the problem with she dont die for 30 min? Whell in 2 hours she cant kill, but she ll revive you, and save your a#% , the guy begging for nerf , why not claim for nerf in trinity or nekros too? Or saryn, excalibur, ash, mirage... You guys dont have balance or something like that, just kill a char because dont like her, is absurd .

Edited October 14, 2015 by (PS4)xKAIOWAx

[Weltraumfred]

Although this doesn't apply to Hysteria, except damage, which is still the highest in the game compared to any weapon or other abilities. In Hysteria you can do whatever you want, unless you walk into the nullifiers bubble (which might not even present in a mission) Other abilities are easy to screw up, yes, but not Hysteria.

 

That is precisely the point IMHO. With Hysteria, the only possible fail states are a) running into a nullifier bubble, b) getting all your power drained (is that even possible in Hysteria?), c) not picking up an energy orb for 10 Minutes +. That makes using it a little bit too easy.

[OfficerBeepsky]

That is precisely the point IMHO. With Hysteria, the only possible fail states are a) running into a nullifier bubble, b) getting all your power drained (is that even possible in Hysteria?), c) not picking up an energy orb for 10 Minutes +. That makes using it a little bit too easy.

There are grineer nullifiers, they just only exist in raids.

 

The problem is, void missions are the only missions worth running long hours, because you have a game that doesn't scale mission credit rewards based on how long you stay in.

 

Why do you think people only play dark sectors for the first five minutes/waves?

Edited October 14, 2015 by OfficerBeepsky

[Ronyn]

So far every response in this thread has been let's remove invulnerability because I don't like it. Or I think it's game breaking. With no actual metrics on how it is affecting the game. Neither have many of the nerf ideas been original or unique but a simple mechanic change to limit her time in hysteria.

This type of thinking is selfish as it doesn't account those who like to stay in hysteria. Until someone can definitively prove valkyrs mechanic has objectively simplified all game modes and removing all challenges for you and your team it will be nothing but an opinion. I have even seen one individual claim that valkyr is better for odd over Vauban. Someone who can effectively remove any and all challenge from odd for the entire team.

It's great that you have opinions but try not to pass them as a fact without specific scenarios or metrics within the game of warframe.

Some questions for you-

1: one thing we can be certain of is different people will have different preferences. So how is a person saying "change x in y manner" any different than a person saying "leave frame x like y"? Why is the former "selfish thinking" but the latter isn't?

2: Who made the rule that a frame or power has to simplify all game modes and\or remove all challenge for you and your team to be considered overpowered or problematic? Who decides the criteria for that kind of thing?

3: if neither the "nerf it" lobby nor the "keep it" crowd can offer any sort of metric (or even provide an objective criteria) than aren't both sides just voicing opinions on whether its OP or not?

[tripletriple]

Some questions for you-

1: one thing we can be certain of is different people will have different preferences. So how is a person saying "change x in y manner" any different than a person saying "leave frame x like y"? Why is the former "selfish thinking" but the latter isn't?

2: Who made the rule that a frame or power has to simplify all game modes and\or remove all challenge for you and your team to be considered overpowered or problematic? Who decides the criteria for that kind of thing?

3: if neither the "nerf it" lobby nor the "keep it" crowd can offer any sort of metric (or even provide an objective criteria) than aren't both sides just voicing opinions on whether its OP or not?

1. This one is simple. The one asking for change has to take the burden upon himself to satisfy the majority that were happy with the skill in the first place. Ultimately it rests in DE hands to decide what is right here.

 

2. Overpowered has to over powered something to make it op in the first place. Hence the word over powered. Whether it is content or other warframes. At the moment valkyr is only the best at solo survival. Team survival does not require her services at all. She does not over power other frames and definitely can't compete with a frost, nova , Loki etc for any defense.

 

3. Except I can prove that valkyr will under perform in a group compared to a frost or a Vauban.  You have not shown me evidence that she over performs in all game modes 

That is precisely the point IMHO. With Hysteria, the only possible fail states are a) running into a nullifier bubble, b) getting all your power drained (is that even possible in Hysteria?), c) not picking up an energy orb for 10 Minutes +. That makes using it a little bit too easy.

Did everyone forget the mission objective? Or are we all going to be blatantly ignorant to all other modes besides survival. Valkyr has to be in close range she can't protect

her allies or pod.

Edited October 14, 2015 by tripletriple

[Weltraumfred]

Did everyone forget the mission objective? Or are we all going to be blatantly ignorant to all other modes besides survival. Valkyr has to be in close range she can't protect

her allies or pod.

Invulnerability also works wonders on exterminates or captures, and surely doesn't hurt on sabotages. And I'm not even claiming that she'll be to top killer in these, just that almost permanent invulnerability is a bit boring and perhaps even cheap and that there might be better solutions.

[Feallike]

OK I am going to debunk all these stupid arguments saying she is OP.

 

 

1. She's a beserker Invulnerability and tankieness don't fit that theme.

 

Hate to quote Anime, but it fits this argument perfectly: Guts for the anime BESERK. He wears armor that makes him unkillable unless he loses every drop of blood in his body. If that doesn't make you tanky I don't know what does. >.> 

 

The only other way her ability could work that would be anywhere to OK would have her store damage and have her take that damage outside of Hysteria. (basically what it does now but without having to be close to enemies) 

 

 

2. Being invulnerable is OP this is a MMO.

 

This is a PVE game, she has no CC, She has a small team buff with basically no range, and she has no means to nuke, reliably stun, or debuff enemies. I think invulnerability is fine. Look at Mesa a frame with a team buff, a 95% damage debuff, AND a nuke ability that also can be a single target damage ability.

 

Also look at Mirage: She has a CC, a Nuke, a 90% damage debuff, can make herself basically unhittable so a enemy debuff for only her. Wow she sure isn't OP...... O while having a 5x damage buff, and 2 clones of herself doing half of her guns damage. YES, THIS IS APPARENTLY BALANCED.

 

Also look at Excalibre who has a frontal invulnerability, a decent Nuke, a very good stun, and infinite punchthrough range attack that can get much more damage if combined with his stun. While having almost as good tanking ability as Valkyr.

 

I think it is blantently obvious to see that Valkyr only pro is that she can tank a bit, and she has good damage with invulnerability. Which sounds OP until you get the fact that their are MANY other frames that can achieve basically invunlerability while being able to use guns, and debuffing the hell out of enemies.

 

(Post possibly to be added to) 

Edited October 14, 2015 by Feallike

[Ronyn]

1. This one is simple. The one asking for change has to take the burden upon himself to satisfy the majority that were happy with the skill in the first place. Ultimately it rests in DE hands to decide what is right here.

2. Overpowered has to over powered something to make it op in the first place. Hence the word over powered. Whether it is content or other warframes. At the moment valkyr is only the best at solo survival. Team survival does not require her services at all. She does not over power other frames and definitely can't compete with a frost, nova , Loki etc for any defense.

3. Except I can prove that valkyr will under perform in a group compared to a frost or a Vauban. You have not shown me evidence that she over performs in all game modes

1: We don't know the opinion of the majority. Everyone has equal burden of proof.

2: yes, something has to be overpowered. Is that something only game modes?

Can that something be a certain interaction? A certain game mode? Depends on the developers-in which case ill point out that DE changed frosts snowglobe for how it performed specifically in defense missions.

3:what you haven't proven is by what criteria something can be labeled op.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Hate to quote Anime, but it fits this argument perfectly: Guts for the anime BESERK. He wears armor that makes him unkillable unless he loses every drop of blood in his body. If that doesn't make you tanky I don't know what does. >.> 

 

Balance > thematics.

 

Idea: a troll-themed warframe that has abilities specifically designed around trolling teammates. Thematically sound? Totally. Should it ever be added to the game? Absolutely not.

 

The only other way her ability could work that would be anywhere to OK would have her store damage and have her take that damage outside of Hysteria. (basically what it does now but without having to be close to enemies) 

 

I don't think this would work, because you can literally keep Hysteria active for over an hour. There's no point to having a downside to exiting Hysteria when you never have to exit Hysteria.

 

I think the most reasonable idea I've seen so far is to make Hysteria's energy drain increase based on how many shots Valkyr is taking, with the drain increase based around hits taken instead of actual damage.

 

Also look at Mirage: She has a CC, a Nuke, a 90% damage debuff, can make herself basically unhittable so a enemy debuff for only her. Wow she sure isn't OP...... O while having a 5x damage buff, and 2 clones of herself doing half of her guns damage. YES, THIS IS APPARENTLY BALANCED.

 

At least it's still physically possible to die as Mirage. Aside from Trinity to a slightly lesser degree, Valkyr is the only frame that removes failure as a possibility. If you want to remove failure as a possibility, why are you even playing this game? As I believe I've already said, it's like reading a murder mystery novel when you already know who the killer is. It's pointless to play a game based around fighting when your victory is assured before you've even started.

Edited October 14, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[Feallike]

Balance > thematics.

 

Idea: a troll-themed warframe that has abilities specifically designed around trolling teammates. Thematically sound? Totally. Should it ever be added to the game? Absolutely not.

 

 

At least it's still physically possible to die as Mirage. Aside from Trinity to a slightly lesser degree, Valkyr is the only frame that removes failure as a possibility. If you want to remove failure as a possibility, why are you even playing this game? As I believe I've already said, it's like reading a murder mystery novel when you already know who the killer is. It's pointless to play a game based around fighting when your victory is assured before you've even started.

 

1. Your taking extremes, people complain Atlas doesn't fit brawler frame then complain that Valkyr is to much of a Bezerker?

 

 

Why do you think no one wants Valkyr is Nightmare raids? Which are the DE's IDEA OF ENDGAME. I don't care what players think I am saying the DE says Nightmare Raids are endgame.

 

She has almost 0 ability to kill their. Nullifers make her their *@##$, she can't kill them due to melee she is effectively standing around hoping to get a opening to revive someone or kill a couple enemies.

 

Why take her before a Frost? Or a Limbo which can give EVERY CASTER INVULNERABILITY. Why isn't that considered OP? 

 

"No margin for error"

 

How about Nova making enemies 99% slower and take 6x more damage? How about Frost making a shield that makes enemies incapable of attacking you until they oneshot you? How about Trinity that can provide infinite energy, and infinite healing? How about Loki that can make almost every enemy MELEE ONLY.

 

 

Don't those fall under the idea of NO margin for error? Invulnerability effects ONLY valkyr. While Loki, Nova, Trinity, Limbo, Frost,  and some I am forgetting provide no margin for error for the WHOLE TEAM.

 

 

How is Valkyr any more powerful than the other frames that can do the exact same thing she does for the whole team? Why not argue that Loki Invisible is overpowered since that leaves no margin for error, how about Limbo rift field which GIVES YOU ENERGY while making you unkillable?

Edited October 14, 2015 by Feallike

[tripletriple]

Invulnerability also works wonders on exterminates or captures, and surely doesn't hurt on sabotages. And I'm not even claiming that she'll be to top killer in these, just that almost permanent invulnerability is a bit boring and perhaps even cheap and that there might be better solutions.

Now that is something we can talk about. First off it is your opinion that she is boring in hysteria many find it fun to not be subjected to the normal damage that other frames take. I too agree that valkyr needs something new however. I don't agree with the notion that she is over powered or game breaking.  I think she is in a fine niche now.