Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[RHuckebein]

Here's some suggestions to fix saryn's Current kit:

Spore: Just make it spread as well as venom used to (6 starting, more spores on spread), Make the spores auto-spread on target death with reduced range.  Maybe even make it spread better, or make the initial target work like Equinox's sleep where it nails things in a small AoE.  Spread all elemental status on the target when burst, refreshing their duration on targets they spread to.  Also stop lying about damage or, if it wasn't active deception, learn some basic goddamn arithmetic.  6 spores * 10 damage on Venom = 60, 3 spores * 20 damage on spore = 60.  Damage was not increased.

 

Molt: Snow Globe invulnerability period, cap the damage it can take per hit afterwards.  Guaranteed toxic proc on explosion.  Keep the spore-target ability.

Toxic Lash: Works on every weapon, not just melee.  Guaranteed gas proc in addition to whatever other status the weapon might inflict.  low-cost toggle power, as if saryn isn't intended to be a caster she doesn't need to be constantly recasting this as well, and if she is she needs radically reduced costs all around.

 

Miasma: Creates a persistent AoE cloud.  Does minor corrosive damage with moderate chance of a proc per tick.  Large duration (at least 8 seconds base, probably more like 12), low damage.  Slows enemy movement speed. Damage and slow increased for every status on the target.

 

Now Saryn has a role for locking down and controlling enemies in an area, her effects don't necessarily fall off entirely on damage.  Viral is always about as good and spore spreads lots of status around, Molt keeps enemies distracted for at least a few seconds and spreads status.  Toxic Lash spreads status and is a decent damage increase toggle.  Miasma creates a slow/armor-stripping effect that improves with the use of saryn's other abilities so it will remain useful in late game situations, and also rewards team construction to inflict multiple additional status effects.

[Natsusane]

You lost an aoe nuker, you gained a map wide viral procc lategame support. If youre saying that is a nerf youre just bad at this game. Saryn is better than before, just performs another role now. I do however agree on the fact that corrupted mods destroy the gameplay.

[BaneOfOrion]

what bugs?

various bugs with spore, mainly melee enemies cant burst them.

Toxic lash appears to not be affected by mods form the threads i've seen, haven't checked myself yet.

[venon23]

Only one thing wrong with saryn only one thing ... is limiting miasma too only 2 procs the rest its realy cool rework

making miasma work with the number of procs will make where realy  nice too team with frames like
NOX (bleedproc)
oberon (radiation proc)
ember (heat proc)
if they work saryin in that way she will be the most op frame ever and with her kit pff zomg tons of dmg and veri nice scaling

lets be honest pressing 4 and kill all stuff is it fun or is like cheating  is like u go on a rpg with a char lvl 100 vs mobs lvl 1
and miasma worked nice till lvl 60 after the she will start losing efect  this way with the viral procs and the dmg overtime she deals more dmg and debuff enemys
lost the nuke well that should have been done ages ago  

Edited November 5, 2015 by venon23

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I was more getting at the fact that if all enemies instantly hit the ground and stayed there from casting Miasma, it would scale endlessly and be tremendously OP, which is silly. Games are supposed to be challenging, I really like that they're adding synergy, combos etc to each Warframe's ability pool. It makes me feel like I'm actually playing the game and not simply a passenger viewing a highlight reel.

That was the point (i.e. stop trying to justify game mechanics with real world mechanics)

[AnonymousArmadillo]

I'm disappointed. I've said something like this before but Poison/Disease can do more than just inflict damage. Because it attacks specific body parts it could hypothetically cause blindness, slowdown of movement, paralyzation, knockdown or something else. This rework feels dull for such an awesome theme/frame. 

 

The spores on molt is a very nice addition though. My compliments.

 

Regarding gameplay:

It feels like the new Saryn relies on time, but she has very little tools to help her stall for time. This makes her very undesirable. I did like the spore/venom spread but no real way of taking advantage of it once the enemies started getting too strong.

[Doombrigade]

I think a lot of people are overreacting a bit. This won't take too much to fix, and DE has slapped on some pretty quick fixes in the past.

Base changes: Saryn needs more base damage & base range so that the mods sacrificed to power efficiency/duration aren't as much as a loss, so just a basic stat change (Notably base damage increase to Toxic Lash)

Ability wise; 

Spore needs soft-targeting, and to detonate on enemy death automatically with a chance to spread to nearby enemies. Spores that are popped by shooting or with Toxic Lash need to have extra range, to reward skilled attackers. All spores popped by weapons or Toxic Lash should also drop health orbs, making Saryn more of a team player and also a bit more self sufficient (also negates the risk of closing in melee and helps reduce the impact of the health reduction).

~This means you can cast spore on a few enemies around the room quickly, and just focus on killing if you like. Once you get the ball rolling, the only time your 'plague' will die off is when there aren't enough enemies to sustain the infection, which also prevents it from being OP (since there are plenty of natural lulls in enemies on any mission)

Toxic Lash should affect nearby allies like War Cry, and be re-castable so you can add another ally by re-casting at any point. This helps Saryn be even more of a team player, by not only boosting overall team damage, but helping the team to spread more toxin procs around and pop spores, so Saryn can use the team to boost her Miasma damage

Miasma can be fixed almost entirely by making it leave a static cloud effect behind. Enemies who walk into the cloud should be immediately stunned, as it used to be (and leaving/re-entering stuns again, as most of those effects work). Once an enemy has been inside the Miasma zone, they should continue taking damage for the remaining duration, even if they leave the zone, otherwise the damage would be too insignificant. Multiple Miasma zones need to stack, allowing you to create powerful overlapping choke points, and utilizing spore/molt/toxic lash to spread procs around and make those (now long-lasting) Miasma zones all the more deadly. It also needs its corrosive proc back.

We're already dealing with DoT instead of burst DPS, which is detrimental enough, so it should still be fair, considering the preposterous amount of burst DPS other frames can very easily/cheaply rack up.

+1 Lots of good ideas IMO.

 

Just to touch on a few though;

Spore: I agree the power needs soft targeting and either needs to have a "chance to detonate" on enemy death or to have the spores appear immediately after casting finishes and have their hit-box size increased. Too many times I've cast it and seen the enemy killed by another player before the spores even appear, completely preventing a chance to spread and thus wasting energy.

 

I agree there should be incentive to actually aim and burst spores with weapons but given WF's play style, I can see this being overlooked by many but I do think having something like health orbs drop or a larger area of effect upon burst is a good idea. 

 

Toxic Lash: I like the idea of it being a team buff at the very least to aid in the spread of spores. I can see giving her a toxic dmg team buff being problematic if only for the fact that her spore augment already does this (not that this particular augment is any good IMO).

 

That being said if the team dmg buff only affected weapon dmg and did not combine with other damage types (not sure if currently does combine or not) then I could see this working. I'd also like to see this energy cost drop to 50.

 

Miasma: Turning Miasma into a soft area denial, DoT patch that tags and staggers or short duration stuns enemies as they pass through is an idea I can get behind. I've always been of the opinion that pure Dmg powers (not counting the initial stagger as cc) are dull and don't benefit coop play, and lend to a mindless spam playstyle.

 

Giving this power its corrosive dmg back and allow it to proc per tick as well would give it much needed utility. Drop the energy cost to 50.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Doombrigade

[fatpig84]

Her HP didn't go down anywhere near enough to be called a "glass cannon"

She's still tanky, just not as much as before.  Her EHP didn't drop too terribly, only by about 10%.

Further, you dont need to go into melee range if you don't want to.

Just learn a few combos for her abilities.

An easy one is: Molt -> Spore on molt clone -> Miasma to get everyone procced with spore and large damage -> Molt again -> Miasma

I've had that just melt level 80+ enemies very quickly in large areas.

She has quite a few other useful combos, that's just one of the simpler and higher damaging ones.

 

At what price for your energy ?

An Equinox player who guns down 2 to 3 heavies can detonate that for a lot faster and cheaper.

Edited November 5, 2015 by fatpig84

[Hecko]

So, she isn't a dumb, all powerful, nuke anymore, that is just fine by me and plenty of other players. So, I don't think naysayers are going to get as much traction on this as they would like.

A nuke isn't dumb itself if you need to build the frame, getting the mods, getting the cores to upgrading it to the max, getting the forma to make them equipable on the warframe. Saryn wasn't a well served nuke as she was dude lol.

The fact that we are probably all MR20 make you forget this simple truth ?

 

And I shouldn't have to say this, but incase it comes up, "but it's a PVE game, who cares about balance?"

I cares for balances, dude I played platinum on MassEffect3 and there were great! we had OP times, but now it's still GREAT!!

 

A room nuke is ok, but a room spam is disruptive to the game, to immersion, to flow of play. Specifically on typical tiles, not specifically in high level defense or similar missions where it is more reasonable.

That's why I always played her alone. I could CC the room, I could kill, I Could survive with her, she was for me the perfect solo frame.

 

Oh and if this about farmers and how they want to farm more easily. I have no interest in farmers in-game trading empire. In the end Saryn is a more dynamic frame and the bar for game difficulty has shifted some.

I just told you I log on for event so... that's not the point, be cool.

 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Hecko

[NN13]

Not sure if I agree with the complain about Saryn rework....

 

What I do agree with 100% is that quite a few mechanisms in Warframe are needlessly complicated. Very very complicated.

Edited November 5, 2015 by NN13

[Larian]

Also, Rhino is probably the last nukeframe left standing, for now. 

 

But only in low-level missions. His aoe dmg aint kill a S#&$ in higher tiers :P

Reliable nukeframe would be ash, because he just keeps jumping on the enemies back and stabbing him until he finaly IS dead, no matter what level he is. (At least if the havent changed it in the last few month, havent been playing for a while).

[TheKurtiStryke]

What the hell are you smoking man ?? so I have to use 14 powers in a row??(what's that 275 energy? or more?), how long will it take me to build that energy back up? why not just use a gun and not waste energy? I really hope your joking because its not clear from your post.

well that 1+1+1+1+1+1+4+3+1ecc ecc combo certainly need a lot of power,but it was against eximus lvl 75,with lower enemies pres 1 for each enemy,then 4,or press 3,and have fun to poison-slaughter everything or just shot at the spores-ones and have fun :)

[(PSN)OMGITSNUKERXD]

I honestly don't know what kind of results you are expecting from the forums.

[/quot

I honestly don't know what kind of results you are expecting from the forums.

I've been seeing lots of hate and lots of love.So I'm trying to find which one oppresses the other.

[Helch0rn]

I have adjusted my build to still be able to nuke. maybe not as effectively as before but still good.

 

If you want to kill everything in your way I can recommend Ember. World on Fire is godlike and combined with Accelerant it get's insane.

Ember is an example of Synergy done right

Edited November 6, 2015 by [DE]Danielle
Removed hidden post

[horcruxpotter]

Nice way to kill all the hype for Saryn Prime. Also I now expect EVERY frame to be reworked to use 1 2 3 4 to do just about anything. Since synergy is such a good thing. Please also remember to nerf their health.

Synergy is a great thing, but they didn't handle it well in the case of Saryn. They should keep working towards synergy, but I agree that Saryn didn't really turned out that well. Maybe I was expecting her to scale a little better in end game content. I never really liked her before, to be honest, and I just built her for this specific rework, but I'm a little disappointed. But this mega thread is made with the intention to gather feedback about her. We might see some changes to her coming soon :) 

[Pendragon1951]

Her HP didn't go down anywhere near enough to be called a "glass cannon"

She's still tanky, just not as much as before.  Her EHP didn't drop too terribly, only by about 10%.

Further, you dont need to go into melee range if you don't want to.

Just learn a few combos for her abilities.

An easy one is: Molt -> Spore on molt clone -> Miasma to get everyone procced with spore and large damage -> Molt again -> Miasma

I've had that just melt level 80+ enemies very quickly in large areas.

She has quite a few other useful combos, that's just one of the simpler and higher damaging ones.

but you see how many steps you have to go through to make her kill something, that's impractical in a fast paced game like Warframe, look at the synergy of Excalibur's powers, look how well they work together with no loss of power.

[Girthpanda]

Never said I want a rollback. I want they got THE THING.

Developing a game is not always equal to make it more complicated, and this is not always equal to make it right, or enjoyable.

That is a fair point. Making things more complicated than they should be won't be enjoyable for everyone, but you have to agree with me here at elast till a certain point... keeping things simple, or too simple, is just as bad and unenjoyable and overcomplicating them.

 

Sure it might be fun not worrying about a million things all the time, but before you know it, and probably sooner than you'd expect, it's gonna get boring because it's simply not giving you any feeling of a challenge or accomplishment of mastering the challenge.

[fatpig84]

Again the tests are all in a vacuum.

In a team scenarios with other players in the game, your awesome DOT damage will not have a chance to work.

 

And when it finally works, it doesn't do great DPS at all because enemy Hp is too high or their armor has scaled off the room.

In the end you are back to Spore popping for Viral procs  and using Miasma for a short stun and breathing room.

 

That's it.

 

Saryn is not a DOT frame in the current iteration. Ash is the better DOT frame thanks to his bleed damage.

On impact he deals 2000 Finisher damage and has a 4900 Bleed damage over 7 seconds.

That is what we call DOT damage.

 

Naked. Before mods.

Saryn ? 4 ticks in total. 3 second duration, the first tick is free.

Only 350 per tick for a total of 1400 damage.

 

Never mind that it is far easier to get multipliers just by using the Rising Storm aug instead of trying to mod all 3 stats plus the mandatory Rejuvenating Molt that Saryn must use.

 

Of course DE is going to "re-work" Bladestorm.

So no worries people !

Edited November 5, 2015 by fatpig84

[Darzk]

You will never Saryn named asked for again in recruitment. Say goodbye to all end game content

Pre-rework Saryn was not very valuable in high end content. Once you got past the point where Miasma could melt enemies, she was basically most useful for spreading Viral and the occasional Miasma stun, and that role *absolutely* got buffed with the changes to Spore and Molt.

 

I don't understand all the salt. Her ult is ~75% more expensive to set up, but deals a great deal more damage, 2-3x as much as before if you count the Viral procs as 2x. The problem I have right now is the modding is a pain in the !, needing every ability stat to function well, and she's a bit squishier. Expected for a caster-focused frame build, tho.

 

Right now I'm using ~127% duration, 125% strength, 75% efficiency, with 169% range. Before, I was using either 185% strength 45% range, or 125% strength and 235% range. Compromising, with the same range I would have had around 141% strength.

 

My current setup, with 122% duration and 125% strength, deals 4.66 ticks of 437.5, for a total of 2040 damage. But it gets 3x damage from toxin+viral procs, another 2x if you consider the effect of viral as 2x, added damage from the explosion of Molt (~1746 Toxin), added damage from absorbing Molt (not sure how much yet), and the added DoTs from Spore (~800-1600 Viral, but it's delayed over ~15 seconds). Results in well over 15,000 raw damage, with a mix of Corrosive (effective against Ferrite armor), Viral (effective against health), and Toxin (effective against crewmen).

 

An old 12.5% duration, 141% strength setup with the same range would give 6345 damage; even a 145% range setup with 212% strength would only deal ~16,500 damage with the same energy expenditure, and would have a smaller range.

 

The only real *problem* with her damage output now is that DoTs are naturally disadvantaged compared to direct damage, as teammates can kill or be killed by dotted enemies. But this actually suggest that she would be *better* at higher levels where enemies go down slower.

 

 

I think people also overestimate how much damage the old Miasma used to do. I hear a lot of 'waah I can't 1-nuke kill a level 50 bombard anymore' when in fact Miasma was (and still is, but to a lesser extent b/c of viral procs) impotent against high amounts of Alloy armor, and never could nuke those high level alloy armored heavies.

 

Edit: As a result of the rework, utility and melee Saryn are both much more viable than before.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Darzk

[fatpig84]

Still nerfed.

EHP was nerfed which made Toxic lash a little weird.

DE failed to address what make Spore troublesome in the first place.

DE failed to buff Molt correctly. In a game with ranged enemies Molt needed some aggro and a short invuln period.

Molt isn't like decoy where you can cast them in front of the enemy to grab their aggro.

Against long ranged enemies, it needs more aggro mechanics.

 

DE also failed to take into account that DOT damage while awesome on paper and solo, is very very subpar in the current meta.

 

The meta for waiting for enemies to die is over, it died along with Acrid.

And the only time Acrid did great DOT damage was because it's DOT can be stack on top of each other.

Miasma simply resets the duration, which is a major blow to it's potential.

Edited November 5, 2015 by fatpig84

[JinxedEye]

Op, your being a bit unreasonable here. What in getting at is that you have a problem because I he devs changed something in the game, which they are allowed to do. There also allowed to nerf the soma to a 5% crit chance and status chance, as well as reduce the base damage of the sancti Tigris to 100.

Just to be very clear, even if I'm a mr20, I don't agree with anything you've said so far. I use aim glide and wall latch. Both in pvp and pve. I do use all frames, including solo with limbo and Saryn. And yes, Iv invested in Saryn for her arcane helmets. And I had a great nuke build with 0 forma. While I do need to forma her now, I don't mind, since Iv been going back and remodding all my frames.

Also, make this clear. Never assume your speaking for everyone. Your opinions are only Yours. Don't force your opinions onto a community, that never works. History is the proof of that. Understand? Saying that everyone hates the rework, or Noone ever uses aim glide and wall latch is a great way to get people to disagree with you.

Satan's biggest issue was players like you who used Saryn as a one trick pony. Everyone who played Saryn used her as a nuke, and would get in the way of other players. Very much like a Mesa in Def. They take away from the over all fun when playing in a group, since the rest of the team is stood there watching, while the one player does all the work. The rework makes Saryn more of a team playing frame, but still work as a solo frame. The fact that you haven't yet figured our how means you may not have experimented yet, if any, or you don't know what your doing. Iv been testing builds, and seeing what mods I need now. Not just me, my Alliance is working on different builds doe how to mod Saryn to be good after the rework, while taking into account the new factors.

You Can easily use your preexisting build, and move on in life, butI feel like you just want to make some kind of drama here. Welcome to warframe, some things too powerful, or domination over others, it gets put in place with the others.

The nail that sticks up gets beaten down.

And if you want to say the weapons are also unbalanced, devs already said that they were going to re assign master rank requirements for weapons, since it's ridiculous for a mr2 player to run around with a boltor prime and such. All weapon requirements currently are based on the Mr cap being like 8 to 10. People didn't like the Syndicate weapon requirements, but that took into account the cap of 18 to 20.

TlDR

Read it.

Edited November 5, 2015 by JinxedEye

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

A work poorly done is not appreciated, unless we are all 12 years old and we did't know what is this.

The KEEP IT SIMPLE is a reminder for other aspects of the game like:

 

damage 2.0

All those changes, all those combination, but still corrosive and fire is the best choice for 3 of 4 type of enemies  on this game.

(there was a great video explaining it, maybe saw while seeing mogamu,, but now I dont remember)

 

movement 2.0

We still dont give a crap about shooting while latched on a wall, or while sliding.

 

Am I wrong ?

Okay, I admitted that it was not well implemented. But I get what they were going for and I understand why they did what they did. They don't want Saryn to be known as the ultra nuke frame anymore and would prefer players to rely instead on the synchronization of her other skills while using Miasma supplemental AoE damage.

 

I don't care what a video said, even if it's from someone like Mogamu. That is just one perspective and I actually love the damage system in this game. Regardless of the meta, it allows for creativity and I appreciate that.

 

And as for movement 2.0: I constantly use wall latch, bullet glide, wall jumps, slide attacks, slide shots, enemy vaults, etc. It's as intuitive of a system as you make it. You just have to actually practice with it to master it. I don't even see what you were getting at with this one. Movement 2.0 might be a bit complicated but that is not the same as convoluted.

[Colonel_Ignes]

+1

 

When the game was slower paced and energy was shared in Closed Beta, I could understand. I actually miss how much slower paced and meaningful the game was.

 

Example:

is gameplay from early 2013. Do you see how slow it is? How much of a different feel the game has?

 

Please capture that again, DE. It is more faithful to dark sector and is more fun for the players. 

 

This thread should focus on Saryn (I don't wish to detract too greatly from it) however I can't help in personally connecting with this post. My opinions are my own, I will not pretend to know what is best for players or the direction of the game at large, and I do enjoy the game with its current theme and dynamic.  However game modes and frames placing a greater value on focused enemy strategy and stealth based or slower gameplay would add to the appeal and diversity of the game's intrigue. The obstacles to this goal are multiple in nature and reverting the game to the previous model represents too difficult a task (again in my opinion). Yet, adding to the existing game other models/modes that actually value this  "more meaningful" dynamic (in contrast to survival, defense which focus on killing quickly/efficiently and crowd control)* such as stealth exterminate (or something more creative and intelligent then the crap I can think up off-hand) would enhance the feel, intrigue, and diversity of the game. It would accommodate and appeal to a larger gaming audience by allowing them to exist alongside the current gaming modes, offering the potential for greater depth and gaming diversity.   

 

To keep this post somewhat relevant I feel the concept for the alterations are solid and interesting and only need some tweaks as other users have pointed out to make them useful (such as spore spreading more easily and on enemy death as one example). All of the above are opinions not fact, I'm not a programmer nor gaming director so the things I say could easily be right on or total crap. I will adjust my perspective as people provide further insights and I'm often amazed at what some people come up with.

 

*nothing wrong with these game modes just using as an example.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Colonel_Ignes

[Eminem2420]

I tried her out, and despite popular opinion, i like the rework. I do think her health needs to be brought back to where it was, and given a bigger energy pool, to 225 or something similar. Synergy is a good idea, but forcing it on a frame in order to get it to work isn't really that great.

[VCaptiion]

Standing still, wasting 200+ energy, spamming 1 at your decoy, wait for mobs coming for it, repeat...?

Saryn's concept is supposed to be like a sneaky dangerous snake, fighting 1 on 1, the rework wasn't bad but such style doesn't fit a fast-paced and luck-based game.

At medium level, Saryn's new skill isn't efficient nor cheap to cast while there's too many replacement could get the job done. At higher level, you gotta either take them down or being taken down in seconds, there's barely a tolerate of time.

Edited November 5, 2015 by VCaptiion