Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

I like it when people show how new strategies can be adapted. Also spore works devastatingly well I had a Perrin death squad attack so spored one and used one lash melee. For some reason the whole squad exploded. It was amazing but I still have no idea what exactly happened.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Saryn's abilities spread and reciprocate insanely quickly if you know what you are doing. I've had toxic spore bursts level entire squads of Ceres class grineer.

[Kevrex97]

ever thought her DoT and Debuffs were ment for team senergy?

[Vahlak]

I'm going to suggest you edit your post to exclude the BLACK LETTERS on a dark background.

 

 That alone stopped me from reading yet another saryn post.

[Sonicbullitt]

Saryn's abilities spread and reciprocate insanely quickly if you know what you are doing. I've had toxic spore bursts level entire squads of Ceres class grineer.

 

 

Sure but you could already do that with half the effort

ever thought her DoT and Debuffs were ment for team senergy?

 

What team synergy ? The enemies will be dead before you are done casting

Edited November 6, 2015 by Sonicbullitt

[Volinus7]

The main problem of old saryn is the lacks of scalability against armored enemies.

She is only a steamroller for low level enemies.

And this change doesn't fix that.

Miasma should reduce armor on each and every tick.

Saryn has no hard CC or reliable defense she deserves a role of armor breaker.

Even with the change Saryn is only a flat damage nuker that can't even compete with other flat damage nuker like nova.

Seriously

Spore does viral proc

Molt&Lash does toxin proc

Miasma does no proc?????

Edited November 6, 2015 by Volinus7

[Phibian]

What you talking about. I have to press all the buttons instead of one. 

 

This is such a massive nerf, DE u sux.

So being engaged in the gameplay having to use all your abilities, instead of pressing 1 button and dozing off in the middle of a defense mission is a.... bad.. thing?

[hukurokuju5]

maybe they should have made it so if targets would suffer debuffs or effects bbased on the *none*  *toxin*  *viral* status of a target.

 

If not affected by toxin or viral status, no additional debuff/effect triggered by miasma

 

If affected by viral, miasma would also activate an, X , debuff/effect

 

If affected by toxin, miasma would also activate an, Y , debuff/effect

 

if affected by both, miasma activates X and Y debuff/effect

 

 

it would give more ways to add to the CHOICE, USABILITY, and FUN in her kit

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Sure but you could already do that with half the effort

 

What team synergy ? The enemies will be dead before you are done casting

Too little effort in the playstyle was part of the reason for change. As for team play, constant viral procs will always cut max health in half which long into endless, means less time an enemy is alive when guns are starting to fall off.

[Enedora]

Did you lag like a monster? When you get a really good set of mobs together, generally with an Ancient to give them the damage resistance buff, you can get an extremely laggy explosive venom supernova. One time I was playing a defense mission with one other, got a group of heavy gunners and an Ancient in the back, and got such a huge toxin stack reaction that the other guy crashed. :X I mean, I was laughing so hard that it happened but I felt bad that he missed out on his wave rewards.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Did you lag like a monster? When you get a really good set of mobs together, generally with an Ancient to give them the damage resistance buff, you can get an extremely laggy explosive venom supernova. One time I was playing a defense mission with one other, got a group of heavy gunners and an Ancient in the back, and got such a huge toxin stack reaction that the other guy crashed. :X I mean, I was laughing so hard that it happened but I felt bad that he missed out on his wave rewards.

No it was instant. I haven't had lag on solo mode since I upgraded to a better computer.

[Sonicbullitt]

Too little effort in the playstyle was part of the reason for change. As for team play, constant viral procs will always cut max health in half which long into endless, means less time an enemy is alive when guns are starting to fall off.

I don't mind putting in effort for  the damage, but still takes too long for the payoff for something not better then the last incarnation, WF is simply too fast for saryn's playstyle to be effective right now. Equinox is a better saryn and a good example of what she should be not what she is currently.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Sonicbullitt

[Enedora]

Summary:  Saryn is perfectly fine.

 

Read my thread on it if you want a further explanation, but to put it simply, Try using Spores. Using Spores right completely obliterates Miasma in terms of strength.

[Censium]

So being engaged in the gameplay having to use all your abilities, instead of pressing 1 button and dozing off in the middle of a defense mission is a.... bad.. thing?

I don't think you picked up on my sarcasm.

 

I personally love this Rework. I actually enjoy using Sayrn now. I'd dare say she's in my top 5 with Volt, Chroma, Frost & Atlas

[Omega-Shadowblade]

I don't mind effort but still takes too long for the payoff, WF is simply too fast for saryn's playstyle to be effective right now.

That makes the assumption there is only one playstyle.

[Kira_Yamato]

unfortunately, the biggest thing i've seen comes down to "do you use sayrn in endgame, or do you not?"

 

what do I mean by that?  So far all the people who keep talking about how great/awsome/super/needed this "change" was, are those that do not, or never have, taken sayrn to endgame.  ever.  or they wouldn't say how great/awsome/super/needed this was.  The ones most angry with the change are those that do take sayrn to endgame, and understand the mechanics that made her useful and why now that she has none of those mechanics, she's useless to endgame.

 

also unfortuantely, too many are "why are you upset?  you can't press 4 to win anymore?!", beliving that this makes anything and everything to make it NOT that ok.  This mindset is horrifically wrong, and mindless to the entire purpose of the words "rework" and/or "balance".  If DE wants to make sayrn a frame that can use multiple abilties fine, but when you take, you have to give.  If all you do is take, you simply nerf, and no one wants to use a nerfed and useless frame, particularly since in endgame and high lvl content, abilities make the core of what is a successful or failure of a run.

 

So looking at sayrn before, you had weak spores that didn't really spread and you had to hit tiny points on a unit to 'activate' them so they'd do anything minus a very weak dot.  Molt was a weaker and less useful version of loki's decoy (decoy drew hate much better), but was made more relevant and useful due to the regenration augment (which was the only reason people bothered to use molt anymore).  Her 3rd just added toxic dmg to her melee and only her melee, and then there was miasma.  Miasma had dmg, cc, and a status proc that made killing easier for the team.  Why was she "press 4 to win"?  Because miasma was the only ability she had consistantly worth a damn.

 

So then comes back to the main point: if you're going to take, you need to give.  If you want sayrn to be a synergy frame you need to make synergy less, "PRESS ALL THE BUTTONS CONSTANTLY!" to "be actually able to use multiple abilities!".

 

Now she has spores that don't like spreading (probably still buggy currently), that STILL require you to hit tiny hit boxes to spread, spread very slowly, and don't deal with large groups with any sort of speed or efficiency without having to spam the ability.  Molt is still mostly the same.  Toxic lash still involves having to melee for some odd reason, something sayrn wasn't designed to do in the first place and with her having less effective health, makes less sense than before.  And now miasma lost everything that made it great before.  Damage, cc, and a status proc.

 

This is a horde game.  Enemies come at you in HORDES, not a few individuals.  You can not afford to take your time to build up a kill speed.  Taking time means you just increase the chances/probability of you dying.  If you want to do endgame you can NOT take your time to kill, it must be done quickly and efficently.

 

Spore is too limited, it needs to proc on multiple enemies in one use of the abilities.  perhaps the target + all enemies within a small radius, ie: instead of spore'ing one enemy, you send spore'S' to infect the area so that it can spread faster.  Would also be nice if you didn't have to hit tiny hitboxes on enemies and instead they just exploded/spread on death, but anything that increases it's spread rate would be good.

 

Molt honestly doesn't need much work.  either increase it's ability to draw aggro or make regen a normal part of it.  Toxic lash has no purpose, moreso since sayrn's effective health was lowered, which makes melee'ing with it even more suicidial.  Perhaps if it was added to ranged attacks too...

 

Finally miasma.  Does it get some damage bonus for things with viral on it?  Yes.  However even with this bonus the dmg is still far lower than what it was, does not add any status effect, and does not stagger anymore (well it does but the duration is shorter than it was).  Either a) the damage needs to return to what it was with no status, b) 75% of what dmg was in addition to the corrosive proc, or c) the damage it currently is, but the entire duration enemies are staggered, unable to act, this giving meaning to a duration build.

 

sorry this became a half-rant, but there's a lot of imformation to cover, and a larger point too many are overlooking for pre-disposed opinions that are not applied to how the game plays as a whole, but how they wish the game to play

[Synitare]

It's the nerf where it's realistically not possible to mod Saryn to do comparable damage, have comparable survivability and have comprable range and efficiency. You get to chose two of four categories. At most. It's all well and good to do faulty math with ideal circumstances and ignore the actual limitations placed on players, but it doesn't really mean anything.

 

See here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/557106-long-saryn-build-analysis-comparing-old-and-new-miasma-lots-of-math/

[Sonicbullitt]

That makes the assumption there is only one playstyle.

 Not really, warframe in general is a fast paced game, It is not matter of playstyle . Saryn's toolset costs too much energy and has too long of a set up for the damage any other frame or gun for that matter can dish out faster. By design it is counter intuitive to warframe's fast paced combat. Unless you have the perfect environment to set her abilities up she sucks and even then the damage is meh. Her only somewhat decent ability now is her first one her others fall short .

Edited November 6, 2015 by Sonicbullitt

[Creamed]

Saryn turned into a press 1 and nuke

BUT if you want to be fancy ... molt > press 1 on molt > molt ... a fancier way of pressing 1

 

 

Just a thought ... I would like to see a saryn in draco in the same farming party whilst sporing incoming mobs since they all group up anyway and letting the team shoot the spores. Hmmmm

Edited November 6, 2015 by Creamed

[Enedora]

@Synitare Would you like to explain why the math I put up was faulty? I would like to know.

 

I put up 58% of the damage and 2200 kills in that t4 60 minute run. Having faulty math would lead to me having a lesser damage total, not a higher one. I assumed worst case scenarios, not "Ideal circumstances". Actually, I find it hard to miss getting the entire room with just one cast of spores, and I'm just using stretch.

 

I didn't sacrifice survivability to do massive work in my t4 60. I had enough efficiency to use my spore the entire run. And It's pretty hard to argue that I'm not keeping up in damage.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Banding

[Zachatoo]

That's my point, its not and her kit does not even scratch most heavy units at level 60, forget going higher, requiring entire pools of energy to complete the task.

Um.

What ability can accomplish what you stated? I can't think of a single AoE ability that can do the same thing with less energy without using weapons.

Use your weapons, it's a LOT more effective that way.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Not really, warframe in general is a fast paced game, It is not matter of playstyle . Saryn's toolset costs too much energy and has too long of a set up for damage and other frame can dish out quicker. By design it is counter intuitive to warframe's fast paced combat. Unless you have the perfect environment to set her abilities up she sucks and even then the damage is meh. This is one the reasons why snipers suck in this game.

Setup really doesn't take long, especially now that spores spread on death. One marked enemy is usually enough. If you are really using too much energy then I must say you take a look at how you are going about it. In addition her abilities can cause feedback loops in tougher crowd groupings using lash or an aoe weapon. Spores popped by aoe weapons still spread to enemies near so constant popping with something like ignis means results happen fast and reliably.

[DawnFalcon]

You know what else is an AoE viral proc? Any red veil proccing weapon.

 

Ignis with viral damage.

 

But I found myself hitting 4 to give Ignis time to do damage, soo yea.

[xRufus7x]

 

Now she has spores that don't like spreading (probably still buggy currently), that STILL require you to hit tiny hit boxes to spread, spread very slowly, and don't deal with large groups with any sort of speed or efficiency without having to spam the ability.  

 

You should check the 17.10.1 notes

[Kastorius]

What ability can accomplish what you stated? I can't think of a single AoE ability that can do the same thing with less energy without using weapons.

 

I can't think of any reason to bring Saryn instead of Banshee.

 

Viral and toxic procs? That's cute. You'd need 20-30 Saryns to deal the same amount of damage as one Banshee and one Mirage with a maxed-out Ignis and 284% Power Strength.

 

Oh, it uses a weapon? Guess it doesn't count then, even though that's what Mirage's powers actually do. Wait, don't some of Saryn's powers require use of a weapon, too?

Edited November 6, 2015 by Kastorius