New Quest: The Second Dream [U18 Megathread/spoilers]

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

That never needed explaining though. Changing the operator from a boy to a girl or from White to Black needs no Lore explanation. a gameplay feature like switching warframes should not require one either.

This does not feel like having cake and eating it too. It feels like being forced to be a kid, be given some cake and having action figures and dollies eat the cake for you.

 

 Before I dipped off, I just wanted to second this person's post. 

 

 The entire concept that the devs had to explain how to shift male/female frames is ridiculous.  Don't break that fourth wall. It is a game mechanic. That would be like having to make lore to explain why/how you can change the warframe's colors... or change the helmets... or change the volume of the game... or turn gore on/off... or explain why/how there is a market with platinum you can purchase in your ship ....

 

 These things were ALWAYS game mechanics--- and never in the history of video games has any game had to explain, via its in-game lore, why you are able to push the PAUSE button..

[BornWithTeeth]

That's the thing. If it's a deliberate bait and switch, I'm fine with that. I thought it was well done. The abrupt reveal was pleasing, and it wouldn't have worked had they come right out with it from the beginning.

 

 

Eh, we differ.

[aeonicstudios]

I'm just satisfied that my theory was right this whole time. Suck it, blue! all you haters!

[Pavelord]

If there was not intent to deceive, then  all of the material needs to be rewritten and reflect the "current" lore.   However, if you go and look, none of the promotional material or previous lore has been rewritten. It all still evidences a story where the warframe was armor, not a drone. 

 

There is no other way to interpret this other than 1.) intentional deception or 2.) recent change of lore.

 

 This "drone" concept was clearly not the intended lore from the beginning (unless deliberate deception is the intention of the Devs, naturally.) 

I'm inclined to think that it was intentional deception, altough without malicious intent and i can't see them rewritting the lore, it would be like changing the slogan to "drones play for free", this would undermine the reveal brought by U18, the great secret that has kept the tenno forces above their enemies. I believe they mention in a devstream that the marketing people is a different people, so I don't think Steve share the concept with them, this transfer to the marketing team in the chinese version, that produce their advertising material with humans inside the frames, and then we were told in the forums that marketing had no bearing on the actual game and lore.

 

I believe that the drone idea is a simplification of the transference process, it is explicitly told that their mind is moved to a substitute body, as in they are living in a different body is not like the tenno have joysticks and VR headsets inside their pods, to me this process seems more like a sci-fiish plot device than a explanation for ingame mechanics.

 

I also don't think that your or mine money should hold  hostage the lore creating process, only the ones who pay for a place in the design council have a limited say in a few aspects of the game, more than that would be like their "Dark Sektor" nightmare, in which the company financing the game completely altered their desired vision.

 

We'll just have to see how the push the idea further, maybe future releases turn the table around, and we find ourselves in opposite places, where you like what they've done and I don't.

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

That's the thing. If it's a deliberate bait and switch, I'm fine with that. I thought it was well done. The abrupt reveal was pleasing, and it wouldn't have worked had they come right out with it from the beginning.

 

 

Eh, we differ.

 

Yes, we differ. But we can agree to differ, and discuss this like rational human beings. For this, I am very appreciative. 

 

While I agree that the reveal had a "shock" value to it-- this shock value will be lost on new players, as they will undoubtedly learn of the "truth" before getting much play time logged in.  

 

 Every new player I have run into since u18 all know the "truth" now (not because I told them, haha... they already looked it up or were told by other players)--- so its shock value has gone away and it has just become the "marketing to a new demographic" that I fully believe it was intended to be.

Edited December 27, 2015 by (PS4)Nujintuai

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

I'm inclined to think that it was intentional deception, altough without malicious intent and i can't see them rewritting the lore, it would be like changing the slogan to "drones play for free", this would undermine the reveal brought by U18, the great secret that has kept the tenno forces above their enemies. I believe they mention in a devstream that the marketing people is a different people, so I don't think Steve share the concept with them, this transfer to the marketing team in the chinese version, that produce their advertising material with humans inside the frames, and then we were told in the forums that marketing had no bearing on the actual game and lore.

 

I believe that the drone idea is a simplification of the transference process, it is explicitly told that their mind is moved to a substitute body, as in they are living in a different body is not like the tenno have joysticks and VR headsets inside their pods, to me this process seems more like a sci-fiish plot device than a explanation for ingame mechanics.

 

I also don't think that your or mine money should hold  hostage the lore creating process, only the ones who pay for a place in the design council have a limited say in a few aspects of the game, more than that would be like their "Dark Sektor" nightmare, in which the company financing the game completely altered their desired vision.

 

We'll just have to see how the push the idea further, maybe future releases turn the table around, and we find ourselves in opposite places, where you like what they've done and I don't.

 

Yes, we could find our roles reversed in the future-- I agree....and I do this because I still fully believe this was a marketing strategy.  Ironically, you mention that our money shouldn't hold the lore hostage---but, allow me to dissent and I will try to summarize my stance in brief below:

 

1.) Warframe is a FOR PROFIT -- it isn't a government agency nor a non-profit charity. It is for money. Thus, do not be fooled. Before "art" or "creativity" -- before all of that--- Warframe has to make money. It is a business. it is a product. Money absolutely is the primary factor. 

 

2.) As stated above, I believe that the developers made a profit driven decision (as warframe is a product, not art). They realized that they have been getting money from veteran players for the past two years. Rather than develop warframe into some unique and highly specialized game (with lore that wasn't rehashed sci-fi plot) --- they wanted to secure more profit (nothing wrong with that, it is business) and appeal to a larger and more expanded demographic.    Evidence of this thinking is apparent with the Vault system...  for example, I would never purchase Frost Prime Vault package because I already unlocked all of this in the past two years... most veteran players already had all of these things... Yet, they bring the Frost Prime Vault Package out... why ? For NEW players. Rather than develop something new, they are recycling their older material for NEW Players. 

 

3.) Thus, in an odd twist, money HAS put a stranglehold on the creative process. Rather than getting new and deeply unique story and material, we are getting an over-used and dull lore accompanied by recycled gear and frames.  The only reason this makes sense is if the developers are aiming for a different demographic than the veterans... 

 

..and thus we arrive at U18.  This is clearly a shift in demographic.

 

 So, to summarize my actual key point :  Ironically, the story telling has suffered because of the need to shift demographic to seek more profit. Warframe could have developed into an amazingly deep and unique lore. However, because of the primary need to generate profit, they need to keep the lore simple and generic enough to appeal  to various demographics (of which they can shift back and forth as needed to secure profit). 

 

So, in a way.. our money IS holding Warframe hostage. 

 

 

**This all being said-- I must specifically mention that I say the above without any will ill or hostile intention. Warframe is a business. All of the above is to be expected and, ironically, applauded. **

[(PSN)Void_Girl]

 Ironically, the story telling has suffered because of the need to shift demographic to seek more profit.

 

There was hardly a story to speak of before U17. I'm not sure what you mean by it "suffering" as a result.

[TennoOfShadow]

I am utterly Speechless in a good way.. The quest was just epic on a scale like a really good movie. Towards then end you had your heart sink because you did not know what would happen the end seemed near. But then at the last moment it changed and then everything was revealed to you. Almost like a book as well.. Everything lead you towards this moment and it explained everything.

 

Although i susbected that the warframes were not us because of when we swiched warframes. Some are Female and some are male. And at the begining we never picked a gender. So that lead me to believe that the warframes did not repersent our gender. But the ending.. Well I was not expecting that at all as i had thought i was carrying lotus at first but instead i was carrying myself. Which at first i did not know i was doing.

 

Overall I loved the Quest one of the best i have ever expereinced in any game. In fact it was even better than most other games  quests can not even compare to it. In fact I do not think any game can compare to that quest it was so good . So keep up the great work DE.. I loved the quest..

Edited December 27, 2015 by DarthMelchom

[Pavelord]

Yes, we could find our roles reversed in the future-- I agree....and I do this because I still fully believe this was a marketing strategy.  Ironically, you mention that our money shouldn't hold the lore hostage---but, allow me to dissent and I will try to summarize my stance in brief below:

 

 

No ill hostility detected, don't worry, the whole point of a general discussion is to provide our points of view and clash our ideas with others until we learn something new.

 

With that said, I can agree on DE being a business and acting accordingly, I kind of see the businessman in Steve everytime he is asked for a feature on the devstreams, he always politely gives a vague answer because he knows that shutting your customers with "no" is a bad practice; it also leaves me with a hint that they feel reluctant to accept all player request.

 

There is also Minky who has been uncompromising in his designs for the warframes, and he made quite some polemic frames. Overall I would say that there is a difference in they thinking that certain cosmetic is not selling well and coming up with better designs for said cosmetic or offering discounts; than changing the scripted lore, independent of how good it is, because part of the paying customers don't feel content.

 

About the demographic is hard to talk without statistics, I can only mention that once a player posted a thread asking for the ages of us in the forums, responses ranged from 16 to above 30, I would say that is a pretty large range for a demographic, so I don't see how putting young tenno would appeal more that it already does to a younger crowd, space ninjas is already a puerile fantasy, and the fan art of the community is already fill with "chibi" and cartoony representations of the tenno, we already have a rather young crowd.

 

A common analogy people threw around, is that the reveal turn this into a child and his robot anime-like concept, but the alternative those people would have prefered is equal to POWER RANGERS ninja force or something, a small group or powerful people in colorful suits with funny helmets that shoot magic and fight with swords, so other that people disliking child characters I fail to see how this demographic was turn to a younger audience.

 

So like you said in some ways what you say may be true, but in several others ways it doesn't.

[(PSN)zenoe1562]

How about that big reveal near the end? I thought that was superbly done, and amazing. I was in awe as to what happened and I kinda wish I could do it again lol. Well done on The Second Dream, DE. I hope you make more quests like that in the future. It was very cool to see scenes acted out through the cinematics and especially seeing The Lotus in person.

[(PSN)zenoe1562]

No ill hostility detected, don't worry, the whole point of a general discussion is to provide our points of view and clash our ideas with others until we learn something new.

With that said, I can agree on DE being a business and acting accordingly, I kind of see the businessman in Steve everytime he is asked for a feature on the devstreams, he always politely gives a vague answer because he knows that shutting your customers with "no" is a bad practice; it also leaves me with a hint that they feel reluctant to accept all player request.

There is also Minky who has been uncompromising in his designs for the warframes, and he made quite some polemic frames. Overall I would say that there is a difference in they thinking that certain cosmetic is not selling well and coming up with better designs for said cosmetic or offering discounts; than changing the scripted lore, independent of how good it is, because part of the paying customers don't feel content.

About the demographic is hard to talk without statistics, I can only mention that once a player posted a thread asking for the ages of us in the forums, responses ranged from 16 to above 30, I would say that is a pretty large range for a demographic, so I don't see how putting young tenno would appeal more that it already does to a younger crowd, space ninjas is already a puerile fantasy, and the fan art of the community is already fill with "chibi" and cartoony representations of the tenno, we already have a rather young crowd.

A common analogy people threw around, is that the reveal turn this into a child and his robot anime-like concept, but the alternative those people would have prefered is equal to POWER RANGERS ninja force or something, a small group or powerful people in colorful suits with funny helmets that shoot magic and fight with swords, so other that people disliking child characters I fail to see how this demographic was turn to a younger audience.

So like you said in some ways what you say may be true, but in several others ways it doesn't.

Given the amount of blood and gore in this game, and an Mature rating, I'd say the demographic of 16-30 sounds about right. Despite the fact that there are cartoony and chibi artworks floating around doesn't nessesarily mean that the artists who created it are younger, perhaps that particular art style is one they excel at. Going back to the Mature rating, honestly, I feel like both kid, and their parents, are becoming more and more irresponsible because there's a reason the rating system is in place, to prevent kids from seeing something like an arrow slice an enemy in half. The fact that the parents are buying games like that for their kid (in this context, I'm referring to kids under the age of 12) feels like a person buying alcohol for a minor. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges with that reference but the reason I use that reference is because, even at the age of 12, the brain is still not fully developed and something like this could potentially imprint a twisted sense of right and wrong.

[KaeseSchnitte]

 

And it clearly is a change of lore, as AGAIN-- this very website still refers to warframes as armor, not drones.

 

 Again, this has nothing to do with the quality of the mission itself (the mission was beautifully done.. the cinematics, the music, etc.. it was amazing and beautiful.) ...

 

... this has to do with  the devs either changing the story up, after we had invested in what was already advertised -- OR -- the devs intentionally misleading players. They either changed the lore later on OR they had this planned the whole time.  Either way, it is messed up on many levels. 

 

Also, quick note. To those who say that my complaints are doomed to have no impact :

 

1.) Mass Effect's ending pissed off players-- a new ending was developed.

2.) Sherlock Holme's death pissed of readers so much they complained enough and he was brought back to life

 

 

 So again-- I fail to see the part where.. as a paying customer who feels he was shafted ... I don't get to complain.  I was told this game was about armor wearing warriors.. not only did the game directly say such (this website STILL says it) but in-game indications pointed to such.. and suddenly. out of seemingly nowhere... it turns into a game about kids piloting drones.  I have every reason and right to complain. 

edit :  in above post,  it is meant to say "ember and rhino's entries are NOT definitive evidence" 

I think you are making mountains out of molehills.

You are saying that Warframes are drones, rather than armors, and technically you are right.

But at a broader scope, it is not wrong to describe drones as armors (i. e. if you want to explain how drones work to someone who has no understanding whatsoever about how drones work), as armors controlled from far away. Especially if we look at the Lotus or Ordis, both wanted to hide the fact that there are operators, so it would be really stupid for them to refer to warframes as drones. refering to them as armors is way more fitting.

 

Also, consider the alternatives: If a warframe would really just be an armor, then DE would have to design a one-size-wears-all race that is using the warframes, since all of them differ in gender, height or width.

 

I am happy with the reveal, the only thing I feel sad about, is that it devalues the story of some quests, namely

(Spoilers for other quests ahead!)

the death of Mirage and Limbo

.

Edited December 29, 2015 by KaeseSchnitte

[KaeseSchnitte]

So I just finished the Second Dream, and I have lots of unanswered questions, hope that some can be answered here!

 

- What happens to the other operators? We see that there are more capsules on the moon and we leave under heavy fire. Does that mean that the other operators are dead? How does that fit into the idea that Warframe is a multiplayer?
 

- Do operators grow old? It is said that the operators were kids when the incidient happened, and the Ember P Codex suggests that they were pretty young. Now the operator we see looks young, but not that young. Also, the Stalker is said to have been an operator aswell, and he clearly seems older.

So, does an operator grow older? If so, how fast?

Main reason is that I am not a child anymore and I don't like the idea of playing a child playing a warframe.

 

- Is the Lotus (just) a sentient? I always thought that the way we see her is the way she wants us to see her, rather than what she really looks like.

But it does seem like she actually looks that way, which is different to what a sentient looks like (atleast to my understanding). Could it be that the Lotus found a part of Margulis inside the "dream" and made it her own?

 

- What affects does this have on older quests?

(If you haven't finished the quests and don't want to be spoiled, skip this question)

I am speaking mainly about the Limbo and Mirage quest. Has the death of the warframes affected the operators? What happened to them?

If we assume that every operator in the early days had just one warframe, did they get kicked out? Is that the way the stalker was created?

 

I got some assumptions aswell, and I'd like to hear you stance on it.

 

- In the Ember P Codex, we learn that Kaleen got burned. If we combine "old" and "new" lore, that would mean that Ember's operator had an aptitude for fire. I think that means that the first Warframes, the Prime Warframes were specificly tailored towards the strengths of their operators.

 

- It is said that the Stalker was an operator. I am thrilled to know more about his origins, his reasons and if we are able to reason with him at the end.

 

- This quests carefully avoided the origins of the Sentients or how the war started or how the Lotus made her decision to tend to the Tenno, rather than destroying them. I expect to see those questions answered in future quests.

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

I think you are making mountains out of molehills.

You are saying that Warframes are drones, rather than armors, and technically you are right.

But at a broader scope, it is not wrong to describe drones as armors (i. e. if you want to explain how drones work to someone who has no understanding whatsoever about how drones work), as armors controlled from far away. Especially if we look at the Lotus or Ordis, both wanted to hide the fact that there are operators, so it would be really stupid for them to refer to warframes as drones. refering to them as armors is way more fitting.

 

Also, consider the alternatives: If a warframe would really just be an armor, then DE would have to design a one-size-wears-all race that is using the warframes, since all of them differ in gender, height or width.

 

I am happy with the reveal, the only thing I feel sad about, is that it devalues the story of some quests, namely

(Spoilers for other quests ahead!)

the death of Mirage and Limbo

.

 

Actually-- no, I have to disagree with you on the above-- not out of personal interests, but out of simple logic.

 

 There never was a reason to explain the ability to change warframes-- ever.  It would be like having to have an in-game explanation why you can Pause the game, or log-in and log-off.  It is called 4th wall.  You can change to any warframe you like BECAUSE it is a game.. the assumption is always that the frame you are playing is the only frame you are "in that moment".. ..

 

 But, even if we decide to  give such an explanation-- they didn't have to go with kids-n-pods.. there are many far more in-depth, less rehashed, and far superior plot elements that could have been generated and used. 

 

 For example -- why can't the Tenno have simply been hyper evolved Technocyte -- perhaps born from the children of the lost ship ? Or they could have even developed a pseudo-spiritual "the tenno are children that appeared from the Void and nobody knows where they came from"-- if they had made the Tenno "virgin births" (appearing from the Void with no known origin except the Void).. that would have been MUCH better.. 

 

Simply put, the "molehill" I am making is a two pronged issue:

 

1.) The current lore is dull and lots of unique and deep points were missed/lost. The story is, at this point, just rehashed material. They could have done something more profound (Tenno = Evolved form of Infestation, Tenno = Avatars of the Void, Tenno = The ghost of the Void kids)  or they literally could have even done the same story arc --but just tweeked it so that it had potential to become DEEP.  As it stands, its weak. Very weak. 

 

2.) I also am not going to forget that "warframe=armor" has been the lore for 2 years. Again, I say, read this very website. And, if you don't believe me-- go read Excaliber's CODEX entry. It clearly refers to the Warframes being put ONTO the Tenno.  There is no metaphor here-- no symbolism. The entry clearly reads that they returned from the Void and were clothed in Warframe armor. 

 Point being : The lore was changed.

 

 Is the lore change awful ?  No.

 Is it weak ? Yes

Did they waste a deep opportunity ? Yes. 

Was this what they always intended?  Clearly not, considering their website and CODEX entries evidence warframe=armor. 

 

 Those are my points. 

 

 And, you yourself even have figured out that this lore "Devalues" (be honest, you mean 'contradicts') many other quest lores in the game. 

That is because this wasn't what was intended. 

 

 And, before -ANYBODY- requotes Ember Prime's Codex, I will just end with "Ember Prime's CODEX doesn't retroactively prove this lore. It just means ONLY what it says. That entry can be backstory for a 100 different plot lines.. it doesn't absolutely have to conclude in the U18 lore."  

 

In fact, if you combine Ember Prime's Entry with Excaliber's Entry-- you actually are forced to come to the conclusion that the children are unknown void children (they didn't know where they came from) and that  they were given the warframe armor to wear.  Please, by all means, go and read both entries and you will see.

 

Also-- the Stalker's Entry contradicts the Lore.. because Stalker's entry listed him as a Guard, not as a Tenno.  His CODEX entry literally says he is a "low guard" who looks on as the Tenno kill the Orokin.  But--now--suddenly he is a Tenno too ?  What gives? 

[Frostbite6900]

I think you will agreed if I say, "most of us think we were just suit up in an exoskeleton".

The exoskeleton were powered by orokin reactor as a power supply, upgrade the reactor will let us have more power to supply and thus we can 

install more mods or higher power consumption mods".

 

 

But what actually make us think these way?

 

1st, in a survival mission we were being inform that our fellow tenno is going to raid for supply so we are there to buy time for him/her".

It will be great if DE can include the npc tenno during the cutscene of the survival mission then he/she(random) dissappeared to raid for supply.

 

2nd, in "rescue mission" it is the counter part of raid/spy mission where our fellow tenno fail to escape or being capture during the 

progress and their suit/equipment was removed(but they still have those ninja move, so they won't die easily XD).

 

3rd, in "defense mission", what you see inside the objective? It is the similar look to the one that we rescue during rescue mission right?

The different is, he/she still snoring in side and wait to be extracted while we fight like @#$@%. Is this were we save/awake more tenno/npc?

 

4th, when we visit relays, there are npc(tenno) that in a group of 3 or more and they have different uniform where I think that shows that 

they are from different school/enclave.

 

5th, some of us had been thinking that warframe will actually have a gender selection in future update(since were are still in beta) where by 

each frame will have male/female version. And these feature was implemented in the second dream, but sadly (T-T) it only applies to the ordis 

like character that sit in our liset store room.

 

 

In second dream, we came to know that there are some kid(aren't they suppose to go to school, instead of killing) that actually manipulating the 

frame, but apart from that the frame come to move by him/her selves (may be that where us as player come in as another entity to control the frame).

To me those so call tenno were just act as our assistance, that's why they keep on telling us these and that becaused he/she can't even move the frame.

But all these have to be officially concluded by DE as we were just going to accept their decission.

[KaeseSchnitte]

Actually-- no, I have to disagree with you on the above-- not out of personal interests, but out of simple logic.

 

 There never was a reason to explain the ability to change warframes-- ever.  It would be like having to have an in-game explanation why you can Pause the game, or log-in and log-off.  It is called 4th wall.  You can change to any warframe you like BECAUSE it is a game.. the assumption is always that the frame you are playing is the only frame you are "in that moment".. ..

No, changing your warframe is not beyond this "4th wall", it is a part of the game. When you pause the game (which you can't in Warframe), you are shutting down the game, but not the universe the game takes place in. Changing your warframe happens within this universe and thus it needs to be explained. Ordis even reacts sometimes when you change your warframe.

 

And the rest of the arguments you are presenting are your opinions. I for one am almost completely happy with the reveal.

Edited January 1, 2016 by KaeseSchnitte

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

No, changing your warframe is not beyond this "4th wall", it is a part of the game. When you pause the game (which you can't in Warframe), you are shutting down the game, but not the universe the game takes place in. Changing your warframe happens within this universe and thus it needs to be explained. Ordis even reacts sometimes when you change your warframe.

 

And the rest of the arguments you are presenting are your opinions. I for one am almost completely happy with the reveal.

 

Absolutely incorrect. If you are playing Solo, you can Pause the game. You cannot Pause the game when in a multiplayer match because -- well, that is that good ol' 4th wall again--- you can't pause because it is a multiplayer game, not because of anything related to the lore. Your pointing out that PAUSE cannot be access during multiplayer sessions only proves the 4th Wall dynamism within the game.

 

As for your objection to the 4th Wall relating to the switching of frames-- I have no way to retort your personal opinion. The switching of frames is clearly  a game mechanic.  

 

However, if we wanted to assume that the switching of frames was NOT a game mechanic-- then even this would not require the frames to be telepathically piloted drones.  The simplest solution is simply that the armor is modeled after the "original frame" (which the lore supports) and the gender of the Tenno is irrelevant to the gender the armor was made to mimic.  So, in that regards,a male Tenno can wear a Female Frame and a female Tenno can wear a male Frame.  For example, Mirage's lore highly supports this approach.  

 

But, point is--- the changing of Frames does not need to be addressed... but, assuming the players demanded it, the Devs could have easily done something ALOT more interesting than drones. 

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

 

I think you will agreed if I say, "most of us think we were just suit up in an exoskeleton".

The exoskeleton were powered by orokin reactor as a power supply, upgrade the reactor will let us have more power to supply and thus we can 

install more mods or higher power consumption mods".

 

 

But what actually make us think these way?

 

1st, in a survival mission we were being inform that our fellow tenno is going to raid for supply so we are there to buy time for him/her".

It will be great if DE can include the npc tenno during the cutscene of the survival mission then he/she(random) dissappeared to raid for supply.

 

2nd, in "rescue mission" it is the counter part of raid/spy mission where our fellow tenno fail to escape or being capture during the 

progress and their suit/equipment was removed(but they still have those ninja move, so they won't die easily XD).

 

3rd, in "defense mission", what you see inside the objective? It is the similar look to the one that we rescue during rescue mission right?

The different is, he/she still snoring in side and wait to be extracted while we fight like @#$@%. Is this were we save/awake more tenno/npc?

 

4th, when we visit relays, there are npc(tenno) that in a group of 3 or more and they have different uniform where I think that shows that 

they are from different school/enclave.

 

5th, some of us had been thinking that warframe will actually have a gender selection in future update(since were are still in beta) where by 

each frame will have male/female version. And these feature was implemented in the second dream, but sadly (T-T) it only applies to the ordis 

like character that sit in our liset store room.

 

 

In second dream, we came to know that there are some kid(aren't they suppose to go to school, instead of killing) that actually manipulating the 

frame, but apart from that the frame come to move by him/her selves (may be that where us as player come in as another entity to control the frame).

To me those so call tenno were just act as our assistance, that's why they keep on telling us these and that becaused he/she can't even move the frame.

But all these have to be officially concluded by DE as we were just going to accept their decission.

 

 Yes, we agree on this point. The pre-U18 lore completely STATED that warframes were armor. It wasn't assumed or suggested. It is explicitly stated.

 

And, this lore presents dozens of contradictions and plot issues. no point in going over them all again..

 

 But, as it stands, it is extremely juvenile.  But--- I guess we just wait and see what future updates provide. Hopefully, some of the sludge of this update will be smoothed out over the next couple of updates. 

[KaeseSchnitte]

Absolutely incorrect. If you are playing Solo, you can Pause the game. You cannot Pause the game when in a multiplayer match because -- well, that is that good ol' 4th wall again--- you can't pause because it is a multiplayer game, not because of anything related to the lore. Your pointing out that PAUSE cannot be access during multiplayer sessions only proves the 4th Wall dynamism within the game.

 

As for your objection to the 4th Wall relating to the switching of frames-- I have no way to retort your personal opinion. The switching of frames is clearly  a game mechanic.  

 

However, if we wanted to assume that the switching of frames was NOT a game mechanic-- then even this would not require the frames to be telepathically piloted drones.  The simplest solution is simply that the armor is modeled after the "original frame" (which the lore supports) and the gender of the Tenno is irrelevant to the gender the armor was made to mimic.  So, in that regards,a male Tenno can wear a Female Frame and a female Tenno can wear a male Frame.  For example, Mirage's lore highly supports this approach.  

 

But, point is--- the changing of Frames does not need to be addressed... but, assuming the players demanded it, the Devs could have easily done something ALOT more interesting than drones. 

Glad we settled the question wether or not you can pause the game. That doesn't help you with your argumentation though.

 

As for switching warframes being beyond the 4th wall, there is no opinion needed, since it's simply wrong. You switch your warframes in your arsenal, which is inside your ship, which is flying through the universe of warframe. It happens inside of the universe and thus it must be explained.

 

If the Tenno is wearing the warframe, then the Tenno would have to fit in each and every warframe there is, which is simply not feasible.

The Tenno is a human after all and would have to look horribly underdeveloped to fit into all frames.

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

---- New plan:  I'm just going to jump from arguing my points and will jump into U18 analysis. 

Edited January 2, 2016 by (PS4)Nujintuai

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

With my dissenting opinion well established and supported, I present the following:

 

 Based on all of the details, some directly stated and some the result of my best attempts to make conflicting story elements comport, I have currently arrived at the following conclusion:

 

1.) Tenno and Warframes are two distinct beings. The Tenno is the "void baby", but the Warframe is a separate Being as well. The relationship is no "pilot and drone", but rather, a symbiotic relationship.  

 

I know that others have posted this theory, but I will attempt to RATIONALIZE the theory with evidence.

 

- Alad V NEVER said the Warframes were "empty shells"-- as so many claim---  Alad V has said that he could not find the source of the Warframe's powers... meaning that he couldn't find the Tenno (the source of power).

 

- Lephantis sees the Warframe as one of its own, which means the Warframes must be made with infested material. 

- Mesa and Chroma are listed as Infested, meaning that a Warframe is a form of infested when it is default (without a Tenno).

- The bodies inside the pods are therefore assumed to be individuals infested with Technocyte who are scheduled to be fused with armor parts and turned into Warframes ? (This is very unclear, but is the only rational theory at present. It also explains how you can build a new warframe.) 

- The Warframe moved on its own during the cinematic, which is also echoed in Rhino Prime's CODEX (although, as stated, Rhino Prime's CODEX proves nothing definitively). This further evidences that Warframes are some measure independent from Tenno.

 

I think though, one of the most compelling parts-- and crucial to what I believe to be a proper understanding of this dynamic-- is  a bit of audio which no one quoted this entire time-- and that was when the voice-over audio directly mentions the Warframes as being a Bio-Weapons project which had been rejected, but that they could possibly be used for the Transference project for the Void Babies.  This single line of audio is surprisingly important (and actually provides a ridiculous amount of structure to the lore) and is surprisingly easy to miss (Good thing I finally played through on the PS4 version, lol) .

 

Also, the Tenno pops up on the screen and talks to the Warframe-- and it is a  I-talk-to-You statement, not a "I-talk-to-myself" like so many have suggested.  The Tenno is not thinking out loud to themselves.  No, the Tenno is talking directly to the Warframe. This is further proof of the "horse and rider"  symbolism...  

 

Thus, rather than "pilot and drone" it is more "Tactician and Field Operative"  or "Horse and Rider".. 

 

Also, in alignment with the above, the Tenno directly says the Infested were "An Orokin weapon's project gone horribly wrong."  This clearly aligns with the other material in HIGHLY SUGGESTING that the Warframes are actually Technocyte infested people, armored up, and powered/focused by the Tenno. 

 

This also explains how the U18 lore and existed with Valkyr--- The Tenno operative was fine.. the Warframe (the infested person which is focused by the Tenno) was the one to go crazy. This would be similiar to when Mutalist Alad V can take control of your Warframe with his neck-trap. The Warframe is an Infested-- but, an "evolved Infested"--- and the Tenno focuses and powers the them,

 

There are other details, but I believe this is sufficient.  

 

On a personal note: Since I played the PS4 version and heard that line of audio which, to me, confirms the Warframe is its own being and that Tenno and Warframe are not "pilot and drone", but rather, "focusing source and infested warrior" (a symbiotic relationship)...then I have to officially eat some of my own words and say that the U18 Lore is actually decent. 

 

There, I said it, U18 Lore is decent.  

[BornWithTeeth]

 

On a personal note: Since I played the PS4 version and heard that line of audio which, to me, confirms the Warframe is its own being and that Tenno and Warframe are not "pilot and drone", but rather, "focusing source and infested warrior" (a symbiotic relationship)...then I have to officially eat some of my own words and say that the U18 Lore is actually decent. 

 

There, I said it, U18 Lore is decent.  

 

 

You are a person on the internet who said "I take it back, I was wrong, this is ok". It's not even about whether I agree or disagree with you, it's about being so reasonable!

 

 

 

Awesome. Making the interwebbytubes better, one reasonable conversation at a time.

 

 

 

 

(For the record, I still think that particular theory is a little dubious. It smacks of "I don't like the Operator, so I'll just assume the Warframe is doing it all while the Operator watches and gives directions."

           It also doesn't particularly mix well with the part where we can build and then discard Warframes at will. If the Warframe is sentient, then the game is 100% ok with slavery, and killing your slaves when you upgrade to a better model. As pointed out, I don't think DE would pull that one.)

Edited January 2, 2016 by BornWithTeeth

[KaeseSchnitte]

During the Second Dream Quest, the warframe powers down completely when the operator is released from the pod. And only when the operator touched the warframe and powered it back up, it began to move again. Furthermore, the reason why the warframe is moving so weirdly and slow when carrying the operator, is probably that the link between the operator and the warframe is pretty weak.

Edited January 3, 2016 by KaeseSchnitte

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

Grant it, that makes sense initially.... however, if you refer back to the bullet points I provided above, we have a few key issues: 

 

1.) Mesa and Chroma  (and Rhino in the CODEX) all operated without a Tenno.  Chroma and Mesa are specifically identified as "Infested".  Thus, we see two key points :  1.) Warframes do not require a Tenno  and 2.) They appear to be predator/wild (like Infested) when not focused by Tenno.

 

2.) This also explains Valkyr--- the Tenno didn't go crazy, the Warframe went crazy. It is impossible for Valkyr to have gone crazy if it is the Tenno.. we are left with a MAJOR plot hole/contradiction.  However, if the Warframe itself went crazy, this would make sense.  (Personally, I believe it was because they changed lore midstream, but ironically, this CAN work with the provided explanation.) 

 

Lastly, the Lore itself said that the Warframes were a Bioweapons project which was scrapped (This might even be the project that cause the Archamedian to be executed.. unless the Archamedian was Margulis.. and that was her execution for the Void-Baby project..) ---- even the little Tenno Operator pops up on your screen and confirms that the Infested were a failed project. 

 

 Summarily, it is reasonable to conclude the Warframes are Infested Body with armor-- I see nothing that negates this and the lore appears to be supporting this. 

 

 The Tenno focus and power the Frame-- again, the lore seems to support this and nothing negates this.

 

 The Warframes can move independent of Tenno (Chroma, Mesa, and Rhino Prime)... 

 

 I don't see another reasonable conclusion other than  what I have provided. I am open to suggestions, but it is best if those suggestions come with supporting arguments-- or there is really nothing to discuss (can't have a one way dialogue) by default. 

[Frostbite6900]

I assume most of us already know the original dark sector concept by DE. Notice that the liset design was quite similar to the current 1.
I have been with warframe for 2 yrs +, the second dream lore is some what confusing as what I originally know.

1. The Tenno are descendants of an ancient and mystical civilization of lost warriors from the Orokin era on Earth.
Preserved in cryopods for centuries, the Tenno now awaken to a new war, fighting and resisting warring factions as
the sole bearers of the Orokin-created Warframes.  While the memories of the Tenno have faded over time, their
mastery of guns, blades, and Warframe exo-armor has not.

So in second dream may be DE wanted to expose tenno memories/consciousness fade over time due to technocyte plague,
it need to be awaken time to time by the operator(shows him/her the path, not to drive by hatred) to prevent it from total corruption.
I guess the corrupted one will be like stalker which kill the operator.
It may be the answer where the warframe powered off when the operator is released from the pod and it began to move again when the operator touch it.


2. The Sentients had won. They had turned our weapons, our technology, against us.
The more advanced we became, the greater our losses. The war was over unless we found a new way.
In our desperation we turned to the Void. The blinding night, the hellspace where our science and reason failed.
We took the twisted few that had returned from that place. We built a frame around them, a conduit of their affliction.
Gave them the weapons of the old ways. Gun and blade. A new warrior, a new code was born. These rejects, these Tenno,
became our saviors. Warrior-Gods cast in steel and fury striking our enemies in a way the could never comprehend.


Tenno are technocyte plague infected survivors, which also helps explain why the infested insist you and they are of the same flesh and why one become powerful.

If you go search for the first tenno, eventually you will find Hayden Tenno as the first tenno on earth and answer your few question about the technocyte plague.


Still hope DE can clear more thing in up coming release.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Frostbite6900