Rhino Changes Feedback [U18 Megathread]

[Zarozian]

On 2/28/2016 at 1:58 PM, AKKILLA said:

Wait Rhino Charge doesnt scale off melee mods? I thought it did. That should be added it be a nice addition

Yeah I was also hoping for the melee mods to affect his Charge damage or at least lock on to enemies like how Atlas' Landslide did.

[NogginMasher]

Atlas would be rendered obsolete if rhino had charge damage scale off of melee mods, kept the current combo mechanic, buffed armor with the augment and had 3 other useful skills. Why play Atlas if Rhino does it too?

[Ronyn]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

 I turned rhino into a support cc tank, as he's suppose to be. Not the damage sponge chroma is or the aggro that valkyr and limbo are.

When people say "as he SUPPOSED to be" I have to wonder what they are basing that statement on.

[NogginMasher]

1 hour ago, AnzeBozic said:

"buffs up iron skin reliably by a player decision or action made in mission, not on the liset", em ... and the bright side of that is? I dont see that as any particular reason this should be something we would try to achive. Charge with agument works on IS pretty simple: charge some enemies and for few seconds you can cast stronger IS. Maybe you ment strategical tactics back there but this is too simple and obvious to be called strategy. All i can see in this is annoyance, cuz that means IS isnt very effective if you dont charge enemies meaning whenever you want to cast IS you have to find some dudes and charge them first. Yeah i would just rather have it like i mentioned before.

Ironclad charge buffs armor (by extension, iron skin) in a very simple way. Doesn't require an armchair general or master strategist to get it to work, just common sense. Charge enemy, get armor buff, cast iron skin. It doesn't need to be complicated, it just needs to work. And tying it to a player action (however simple) is more engaging. The player is consciously doing something to make themselves better. Putting a little thought into the game to make something work is a good idea, copying a cookie cutter build and never thinking about it again is a bad idea.

 

So, what simple mechanic do you propose to replace ironclad charge that involves some sort of player action?

[(PSN)Crixus044]

6 hours ago, NogginMasher said:

Using Rhino for CC and support is a great idea, but I fail to see how self-damage helps that. Self damage is a cheap tactic to buff iron skin by 16 000 hp. What does that have to do with CC and stomp? You may not have to slot in strength, armor or augments, but roar is useless without strength. You make rhino a one-trick pony, CC and average iron skin (which is what we had before).

A 62m stomp for 8 seconds of status that only cost 25 energy while having 16,000 hp ironskin to tank a few hits (key word FEW as those guys deal insane damage) seems more than a one trick pony to me. By that logic, Ash is a one trick pony for Blade Storm or Ember for World on Fire. 16,000 is more than average. It's more than any high strength build, and with the +180% power strength + ironclad charge build I use for tank rhino, it takes almost 7 enemies to hit to reach what self-damage use to do for iron skin's hp. That may not always happen with a single rhino charge. Plus, self damage can take out those damn melee enemies that would usually one shot you. I can run straight into level 130 grineer gun fire, taking some hits, jump in the middle and prepare a stomp that would lock them down. Player in need of revive? Iron up, get to his point, lock down the map, and revive him safely. I see nothing wrong with this kind of rhino. I don't think you've ever taken rhino prime into a law of retribution raid.

[Ronyn]

4 hours ago, NogginMasher said:

Atlas would be rendered obsolete if rhino had charge damage scale off of melee mods, kept the current combo mechanic, buffed armor with the augment and had 3 other useful skills. Why play Atlas if Rhino does it too?

So we have two characters with a forward charge type move. If the either frame becomes obsolete just because both frames do good damage with their charge move...we should be looking to improve their various differences not insisting that one of these frames have a weak power.

[(PSN)MrDemigod81]

10 hours ago, AnzeBozic said:

Hes not getting love, what he is gettin is a set of basic tweaks again and again which never fulfill the task of bringing him to his original place and thus making a need for another set of tweaks, while nekros never left his original place, he is what he has always been, lootframe. And does a damn good job at it. Rhino just has more weight behind him from comunity than nekros and its been going on for so long. I would also like to see neky something more than just desecrator of rotten bodies and rusting robotics but rhino is gonna keep getting these tweaks till hes where he should be, if he will ever be, because DE apparently set themselves a goal to do that but are not so good at achiving it so far.

Thank you for you politeness some other idiots would like to tell you to go some other place and gripe someone else, when your free put your own opinion. I understand now thank you!

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 hour ago, Ronyn said:

When people say "as he SUPPOSED to be" I have to wonder what they are basing that statement on.

His profile and just a look at his powers is enough. Stomp doesn't deal a lot of damage and it's not suppose to. It can take out lower level enemies and soften higher level enemies, that's all it really is for damage-wise. Crowd Control wise, stomp is god for locking down entire rooms. Iron skin is great for tanking damage, but it's not meant for rhino to be a bullet sponge for a whole mission. Chroma is that kind of tank. He's an aggro/damage sponge that is used primarily to draw enemy fire and revive allies. That's all he's there for. Valkyr has a similar purpose, although her claws are probably the best endgame dps weapons around. Limbo is a defensive aggro. He's no tank by any means. He's like frost, but different and he can be great aggro with a 70 second rift walk. Rhino is suppose to be locking down maps and buffing allies. Yes he can take some hits, but he's not suppose to be a bullet sponge. He's suppose to be able to take a few hits, enough to give him time to cast stomp and take out the enemies he's stunned. He charges into enemies to knock them down and get in the middle of a crowd. Cast stomp, take out suspended enemies. That was his original purpose. Rhino as of now can do this superbly in mid-tier and high-tier content. The problem is that around level 80 and above, he starts falling off faster than any frame. Roar doesn't buff damage enough at that point and iron skin can't hold up. This is were he starts not becoming endgame viable. How can i prove this. Go to any random raid. If you see a rhino prime player there, it's probably me. That's it. His profile says he specializes in crowd control and becomes an immovable tank. Tank doesn't ALWAYS mean bullet sponge. Therefore, rhino is suppose to be a cc support tank.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

10 hours ago, AnzeBozic said:

Hes not getting love, what he is gettin is a set of basic tweaks again and again which never fulfill the task of bringing him to his original place and thus making a need for another set of tweaks, while nekros never left his original place, he is what he has always been, lootframe. And does a damn good job at it. Rhino just has more weight behind him from comunity than nekros and its been going on for so long. I would also like to see neky something more than just desecrator of rotten bodies and rusting robotics but rhino is gonna keep getting these tweaks till hes where he should be, if he will ever be, because DE apparently set themselves a goal to do that but are not so good at achiving it so far.

Terrify is fantastic crowd control and I center my nekros around that power. I have a despoil/terrify balanced build that I prefer using over desecrate only. Nekros is a lot more than just a farmer. In an interception mission, he can become the best  crowd control frame there is. it's the reason why I brought him to the phoenix intercept escalation mission. Just keep the enemies running from ya with debuffed armor.

[Ronyn]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

His profile and just a look at his powers is enough. 

No. No it isn't. Because at any given time we are dealing with the reality that intention and execution don't always match up. All of us players here are doing our best to understand what aspects of him are acting as intended and which aspects are under or over performing.  (Besides, the exact words of his flavor text and profile video emphasis his ability to do damage, and specifically absorb damage more than they emphasize his ability to CC)

More to the point, no one is arguing that he isn't also a solid CC frame who can buff allies.  Though I will point out that when I Rebecca for the devs intended roll for Rhino  is, was and will continue to be..... she said they mean him to "excel in both dishing out and absorbing damage". Yep, THAT is his primary function. The other stuff is secondary.

The whole "rhino is not a damage sponge because he is a CC/support tank" is a just player speculation. Now I'm not saying you can't have the opinion that is what you want him to be...but to argue that is what the devs want for him requires backing that doesn't exist. There has never been any statement by DE that rhino should be any less resilient, any less effective at absorbing damage than any other frame. Particularly several other frames who were never even referred to as a tank or anything like it.

No doubt some of Rhino's aspects fall off too dang quickly. That is why myself and others are in this thread trying to get those aspects brought up to par.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

2 minutes ago, Ronyn said:

No. No it isn't. Because at any given time we are dealing with the reality that intention and execution don't always match up. All of us players here are doing our best to understand what aspects of him are acting as intended and which aspects are under or over performing.  (Besides, the exact words of his flavor text and profile video emphasis his ability to do damage, and specifically absorb damage more than they emphasize his ability to CC)

More to the point, no one is arguing that he isn't also a solid CC frame who can buff allies.  Though I will point out that when I Rebecca for the devs intended roll for Rhino  is, was and will continue to be..... she said they mean him to "excel in both dishing out and absorbing damage". Yep, THAT is his primary function. The other stuff is secondary.

The whole "rhino is not a damage sponge because he is a CC/support tank" is a just player speculation. Now I'm not saying you can't have the opinion that is what you want him to be...but to argue that is what the devs want for him requires backing that doesn't exist. There has never been any statement by DE that rhino should be any less resilient, any less effective at absorbing damage than any other frame. Particularly several other frames who were never even referred to as a tank or anything like it.

No doubt some of Rhino's aspects fall off too dang quickly. That is why myself and others are in this thread trying to get those aspects brought up to par.

I could work with ya on fixing rhino. I have some ideas. But I remember when rebecca said this. Yes he can dish and tank damage, but it's not his primary roles as you say. He's primary role is support. His description in the video is "specializing in crowd control". That's why I say his profile and look at his powers is enough. Watch his profile video. It's one of the first things stated.

[Ronyn]

28 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

IBut I remember when rebecca said this. Yes he can dish and tank damage, but it's not his primary roles as you say. He's primary role is support.

False. DE has NEVER said that cc and/or support were his primary roles. When asked what he is "absorb and dish out damage" are always the primary references from dev statements.

28 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

IHis description in the video is "specializing in crowd control". That's why I say his profile and look at his powers is enough. Watch his profile video. It's one of the first things stated.

The profile video.... "This is rhino, an immovable force and highly resilient, specializing in crowd control he sacrifices speed for strength...(describes his powers and mods then finishes off with" becomes and almost unstoppable tank" The first thing it mentions is his ability to keep standing through damage, then it mentions crowd control, then mentions his ability to not be stopped at the end. Choosing the one part of the sentence about CC as the main point is cherry picking. When you look at the information as a whole it's clearly more focused on his ability to barrel through and survive.

At most one could say crowd control is just as important to him as his other aspects. Certainly not more though. 

28 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I could work with ya on fixing rhino. I have some ideas. 

At any rate I always welcome more minds to help figure this out.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Ronyn

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 minute ago, Ronyn said:

False. DE has NEVER said that cc and/or support were his primary roles. When asked what he is "absorb and dish out damage" are always the primary references from dev statements.

The profile video.... "This is rhino, an immovable force and highly resilient, specializing in crowd control he sacrifices speed for strength...(describes his powers and mods then finishes off with" becomes and almost unstoppable tank" The first thing it mentions is his ability to keep standing through damage, then it mentions crowd control, then mentions his ability to not be stopped at the end. Choosing the one part of the sentence about CC as the main point is cherry picking. When you look at the information as a whole it's clearly more focused on his ability to barrel through and survive.

 

At any rate I always welcome more minds to help figure this out.

I'm gonna make a topic soon about my rework ideas, i'll spread the link to you and tell me what you think.

 

Using chronological statements to define his primary focus is kairos and not really accurate for defining purpose. Even if, his description was said that he specializes in crowd control and is well equipped for taking and dealing damage. Crowd control + tank = cc tank. Keep in mind that support does not mean like trinity or any of the debuff frames. There's multiple kinds of cc. Rhino is for locking down maps and taking hits from enemies, thus allowing him to deal a lot of damage with weapons to enemies as they roll in suspension. When i say support, I mean he helps allies by locking down rooms, taking out weaker enemies, and taking hits for them where they can't. That seems like enough of a support tank to me. He's not meant to stand there and take hits like chroma, valkyr, or wukong.

[NogginMasher]

With the Rhino's most recent rework, he is very good at taking hits.

iron skin now has the potential for tremendous tanking with the addition of ironclad charge+iron shrapnel combo. Put the two mods on, and iron skin is stupidly effective. That was DE's decision to make ironclad buff armor and iron skin scale off of armor. Players didn't make that mod, no player put out the update, that was all DE.

Players did shoot themselves in the feet with angstrums and kulstars to buff iron skin, and DE removed that.

Say what you want about intentions, but actions speak louder than words. DE made iron skin more powerful, and now I can run around in T3/4 survival for an hour maintaining iron skin no problem.

DE also made stomp recastable, helping out CC. Plus roar lasts quite a while and gives a decent damage boost, my build is 36 secs with 2.2x more damage.

 

Based on how Rhino actually plays, I'd say DE wants him as a jack of all trades, tanky+CC+support frame with decent damage.

[Ronyn]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I'm gonna make a topic soon about my rework ideas, i'll spread the link to you and tell me what you think.

 

Using chronological statements to define his primary focus is kairos and not really accurate for defining purpose. Even if, his description was said that he specializes in crowd control and is well equipped for taking and dealing damage. Crowd control + tank = cc tank. Keep in mind that support does not mean like trinity or any of the debuff frames. There's multiple kinds of cc. Rhino is for locking down maps and taking hits from enemies, thus allowing him to deal a lot of damage with weapons to enemies as they roll in suspension. When i say support, I mean he helps allies by locking down rooms, taking out weaker enemies, and taking hits for them where they can't. That seems like enough of a support tank to me. He's not meant to stand there and take hits like chroma, valkyr, or wukong.

I wasn't using JUST chronology (though it does matter) but also the number of times they drive the same point. Like...how many times do they use a word synonymous with resilient between his video and flavor text? Is that Not obviously his main theme or at least as much of a main theme as anything else? Crowd control is mentioned once in his video and not at all in his flavor text. Plus crowd control, in real combat, often relates to holding back crowds by being too hard to knock down or push back. (note how DE doesn't really mention CC for vauban or Nyx? weird right...) or then we have the term "heavy" that in real world combat generally references things like high amounts of armor or weaponry Not simply weight. Rhino, called the heaviest frame, is implied to be those things. But hey I really don't to spend too much time arguing that line of thinking.

Either way I don't have a problem with giving rhino the classification of "c.c./support Tank". That's fine. What I have a problem with is that somehow allegedly meaning rhino shouldn't be about as resiliant as other frames like valkyr or chroma.

Both valkyr and chroma have team buffs and some lesser but still solid CC (despite what some claim) and other aspects rhino lacks yet neither of them have profile videos that repeatedly mention how resilient they are to the degree that rhinos does. So if chroma, meant to be versatile and bring good buffs according to DE, is mostly just used as a take-hits-tank then we need to work on his buffs and versatility being more pronounced....not hold back rhinos resiliance using chroma's lack of something other than straight tanking as a reason.

Ultimately I just don't buy the whole "rhino isn't meant to be a bullet sponge like some other frames" thought process. Rhino should be at least as good as any other frame is at that....based on all of DEs statements about him.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Ronyn

[(PSN)Crixus044]

2 minutes ago, Ronyn said:

I wasn't using JUST chronology (though it does matter) but also the number of times they drive the same point. Like...how many times do they use a word synomous with resilient between his video and flavor text? Is that Not obviously his main theme or at least as much of a main theme as anything else? Crowd control is mentioned once in his video and not at all in his flavor text. Plus crowd control, in real combat, often relates to holding back crowds by being too hard to knock down or push back. Just as the term "heavy" in real world combat generally references things like high amounts of armor or weaponry Not simply weight. Rhino, called the heaviest frame, is implied to be those things. But hey I really don't to spend too much time arguing that line of thinking.

Either way I don't have a problem with giving rhino the classification of "c.c./support Tank". That's fine. What I have a problem with is that somehow allegedly meaning rhino shouldn't be about as resiliant as other frames like valkyr or chroma.

Both valkyr and chroma have team buffs and some lesser but still solid CC (despite what some claim) and other aspects rhino lacks yet neither of them have profile videos that repeatedly mention how resilient they are to the degree that rhinos does. So if chroma, meant to be versatile and bring good buffs according to DE, is mostly just used as a take-hits-tank then we need to work on his buffs and versatility being more pronounced....not hold back rhinos resiliance using chroma's lack of something other than straight tanking as a reason.

Ultimately I just don't buy the whole "rhino isn't meant to be a bullet sponge like some other frames" thought process. Rhino should be at least as good as any other frame is at that....based on all of DEs statements about him.

What he should be is different than what he's suppose to be. I agree he should be able to tank like chroma, wukong, and valkyr as well as have cc power, but with the way iron skin is, it isn't suppose to and it really doesn't tank that much. I tried to bring my max strength rhino build into law of retribution raid with ironclad augment. Even with 720% and 990% buffs, I still was being carried. It can't be done. He cannot tank with the likes of valkyr and chroma, or even trinity, because they way it is now isn't made for that kind of tanking. It's made for taking SOME hits.Then you stomp, stun-locking a map and the roaring and goring begins. Rinse, and repeat. You must understand, that I don't want rhino to be the support-centric frame, but that's what he is at endgame. It works, and self-damage made it amazing for endgame, but now, he's back to the struggling paper tank he's always been.

[NogginMasher]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

What he should be is different than what he's suppose to be.

Uhh... What? Think you have a poor choice of words there. Can you explain that one again?

6 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

What I tried to bring my max strength rhino build into law of retribution raid with ironclad augment. Even with 720% and 990% buffs, I still was being carried. It can't be done. He cannot tank with the likes of valkyr and chroma, or even trinity, because they way it is now isn't made for that kind of tanking.

And from personal experience, the augments work stupidly well. I have multiple screenshots to show you of 35-72 000 hp iron skin. Hitting 72 000 doesn't happen very often, but I usually hit 35 000 no problem. It really depends on the enemy spawning, and LoR raid with huge rooms and CC spamming is hard to get a buff with ironclad charge. Indoor survival missions with tight quarters and pockets of enemies are really good for ironclad charge. Just go a few pages back, I have a screenshot of 72 000 hp iron skin. I can upload a video if you really want, or maybe even run a mission with you.

Armor and ironclad outclasses self damage unless you only hit 2 or 3 enemies. You say yourself that 16 000 iron skin is pretty good for endgame, then you say a 990% buff isn't good enough.

And Valkyr and Trinity are poor examples for tanks, literally no one can outtank invincible hysterical Valkyr and 99.5% blessing Trinity with a built in EV energy generator. Chroma on the other hand works by buffing up effective health, and iron skin is a skill that directly adds on to effective health. From personal experience, I have outlasted Valkyrs and Chromas in long survivals (I can't say they were using the best tank build, I'm just saying it can be done).

And earlier, about the 'one-trick pony' thing. A rhino stomp with 62 m radius, 25 energy cost and 8 second duration is probably made possible by a low power strength build. Therefore, roar is useless. And without the augments, iron skin is useless. Rhino does one thing, spam stomp --> one-trick pony. A blade storm Ash and WoF Ember that does one thing all day are also one-trick ponies.

Do you want iron skin to only be sorta effective? Buff the CC in stomp and nerf iron skin? I'm confused what your plan is. Whatever your view of what rhino should be, how would you propose changing him?

[(PSN)Crixus044]

15 minutes ago, NogginMasher said:

Uhh... What? Think you have a poor choice of words there. Can you explain that one again?

And from personal experience, the augments work stupidly well. I have multiple screenshots to show you of 35-72 000 hp iron skin. Hitting 72 000 doesn't happen very often, but I usually hit 35 000 no problem. It really depends on the enemy spawning, and LoR raid with huge rooms and CC spamming is hard to get a buff with ironclad charge. Indoor survival missions with tight quarters and pockets of enemies are really good for ironclad charge. Just go a few pages back, I have a screenshot of 72 000 hp iron skin. I can upload a video if you really want, or maybe even run a mission with you.

Armor and ironclad outclasses self damage unless you only hit 2 or 3 enemies. You say yourself that 16 000 iron skin is pretty good for endgame, then you say a 990% buff isn't good enough.

And Valkyr and Trinity are poor examples for tanks, literally no one can outtank invincible hysterical Valkyr and 99.5% blessing Trinity with a built in EV energy generator. Chroma on the other hand works by buffing up effective health, and iron skin is a skill that directly adds on to effective health. From personal experience, I have outlasted Valkyrs and Chromas in long survivals (I can't say they were using the best tank build, I'm just saying it can be done).

And earlier, about the 'one-trick pony' thing. A rhino stomp with 62 m radius, 25 energy cost and 8 second duration is probably made possible by a low power strength build. Therefore, roar is useless. And without the augments, iron skin is useless. Rhino does one thing, spam stomp --> one-trick pony. A blade storm Ash and WoF Ember that does one thing all day are also one-trick ponies.

Do you want iron skin to only be sorta effective? Buff the CC in stomp and nerf iron skin? I'm confused what your plan is. Whatever your view of what rhino should be, how would you propose changing him?

I can explain my horrible grammar (i was really tired, still am)

Suppose to be: What his mechanics allow him to be endgame viable as it stands

Should Be: What his mechanics should be doing at endgame.

I never said that the 990% armor buff wasn't enough. I said I was being carried, as in I was contributing very little to the team. My low strength build for iron skin was alleviated by the self-damage buff I use to do. I use to have 13,000 hp on iron skin because I hadn't perfected my angstrum build. I had max range, efficiency, and high duration as our trinity kept feeding me energy. I could take plenty of damage, lock down a map, and move on. I took damage and I took control of a room. That ain't no one trick pony. I get the high strength iron skin along with some of the best crowd control. I can see you've probably haven't done enough raids, because in raids, you don't kill ANYTHING except G3 and battery carrier in final mission. Maybe a bombard or napalm. So damage buff from roar isn't needed. Saying rhino is good for raids is like saying speed novas are good for raids because I can kill the enemies really quickly, when in reality, if you bring a speed nova to raid, you'll personally be hunted down and killed by one of your teammates. With the change, only way I was able to survive was with high strength which meant that I had to sacrifice range and duration. I could tank better than ever, but my stomp wasn't helping my team which needed more range. I was using up too much energy and on the final mission, I was basically useless because vay hek can still take me out.

In a t4, my squad and I were aiming for 2 hours minimum to make the leaderboards, but I was losing viability at 1 1/2 hours and by 1 hour 45 minutes, I was basically a hinderance. How did I survive? Shadow Step. Was I doing anything important? Nope. Maybe CCing a small crowd of enemies, but the idea of me taking hits from a corrupted bombard at that level is completely absurd. I have a screenshot of when I was able to get 182,000 health on my iron skin in the simulacrum, but in that mission, I was able to get at most 80,000 on my iron skin. Did it matter? nope. At the 2 45 minute mark, I went down for the 4th time. Our team was comprised of a saryn p, trinity p, and nekros. The nekros was a pure farm build so any thoughts of a nice terrify were out the window. Trinity could only bless me so many times. Saryn was great for the first hour, but she too lost viability, although were viral procs were nice for doing double damage to enemies (read about how viral procs work with damage). I tried to keep the nekros and saryn up, but it didn't matter because I couldn't stick around to revive them if I was taking damage too.

What would have fixed this mess? If iron skin is gonna stay the way it is, better bring back self-damage. If iron skin will change, please make it good for endgame as so many other frames are. I want to bring back my high range and duration build so that I can have entire rooms locked down while tanking damage from the best enemies we face. I can't do that rn. There are so many warframes that can last almost forever if modded and synergized correctly. Rhino isn't one of them.

[NogginMasher]

Why in the world anyone would want to go beyond 1 hr in a mission is beyond me.

Let's look at Rhino scaling

Early game

rank 5 mods, uncommon mods, maybe a rare mod

Good iron skin for fending off the mobs

Good damage, CC stomp

Mid game

rank 10 mods, corrupted mods

Good iron skin for fending off the mobs

Good damage, CC stomp

Late game

rank 10 corrupted mods, primed mods, syndicate augments

Great iron skin for fending off mobs (w/ augments, sucks w/o)

poor damage, good CC stomp

Preposterously unbalanced super long late game

Pushing build to the limits

Paper thin iron skin that might soak up a bullet or two (lvl 200 anything hits like a train, you're probably going to be one-shot)

abysmal damage, good CC stomp

 

Iron skin scales well, until you push the game to the limits of infinite scaling. When you're facing lvl 100+ enemies, iron skin becomes less and less effective. Tanking hits is no longer a viable plan, the key here is to avoid taking hits at all (invis loki, blind mirage, Vauban). If you push the game to the limit that iron skin is basically useless and all your using Rhino for is CC, it's time to bring a diff't frame that specializes in CC. And tacking on 16 000 hp to iron skin by self damage (btw, self damage is capped at 16K) only delays the inevitable, sooner or later  a stray bullet will one-shot your iron skin and you can forget about it. Making iron skin viable in a 2 hr T4 survival would make it stupidly unbalanced in anything lower than that.

If you want CC in preposterously unbalanced late game, bring someone else that specializes in CC, like Loki, Nyx, Vauban or Mirage. As it stands now, Rhino is pretty good late game, like 1 hr survivals and sortie missions (admittedly, I haven't taken him to a raid).

 

Also, why oh why do people think the game should be balanced at all when you stay in a mission for 2 hrs? With infinite scaling for enemy damage and effective health, there is going to be a point sooner or later that everyone will die by the slightest whisper of an enemy, or the enemy will be so stupendously strong that nothing can kill them. Don't balance out the extremes, balance the main part of the game.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

2 minutes ago, NogginMasher said:

Why in the world anyone would want to go beyond 1 hr in a mission is beyond me.

Let's look at Rhino scaling

Early game

rank 5 mods, uncommon mods, maybe a rare mod

Good iron skin for fending off the mobs

Good damage, CC stomp

Mid game

rank 10 mods, corrupted mods

Good iron skin for fending off the mobs

Good damage, CC stomp

Late game

rank 10 corrupted mods, primed mods, syndicate augments

Great iron skin for fending off mobs (w/ augments, sucks w/o)

poor damage, good CC stomp

Preposterously unbalanced super long late game

Pushing build to the limits

Paper thin iron skin that might soak up a bullet or two (lvl 200 anything hits like a train, you're probably going to be one-shot)

abysmal damage, good CC stomp

 

Iron skin scales well, until you push the game to the limits of infinite scaling. When you're facing lvl 100+ enemies, iron skin becomes less and less effective. Tanking hits is no longer a viable plan, the key here is to avoid taking hits at all (invis loki, blind mirage, Vauban). If you push the game to the limit that iron skin is basically useless and all your using Rhino for is CC, it's time to bring a diff't frame that specializes in CC. And tacking on 16 000 hp to iron skin by self damage (btw, self damage is capped at 16K) only delays the inevitable, sooner or later  a stray bullet will one-shot your iron skin and you can forget about it. Making iron skin viable in a 2 hr T4 survival would make it stupidly unbalanced in anything lower than that.

If you want CC in preposterously unbalanced late game, bring someone else that specializes in CC, like Loki, Nyx, Vauban or Mirage. As it stands now, Rhino is pretty good late game, like 1 hr survivals and sortie missions (admittedly, I haven't taken him to a raid).

 

Also, why oh why do people think the game should be balanced at all when you stay in a mission for 2 hrs? With infinite scaling for enemy damage and effective health, there is going to be a point sooner or later that everyone will die by the slightest whisper of an enemy, or the enemy will be so stupendously strong that nothing can kill them. Don't balance out the extremes, balance the main part of the game.

One shotting 16k+ iron skin? That maybe would happen against a level 4000 heavy gunner, but other than that, iron skin can still tank few a shots. Key word....FEW. I'll put this in extremely simple terms. Iron skin can take a few shots. In order to keep the shots to only a few, you need big cc. To have big cc, you need big and long stomp. So to be an endgame cc tank, you need big stomp with strong skin, but without self damage, you can have one or the either. I use to have both and I use to excel with the likes of nova and trinity. Now, I can't. Either bring back self damage or change iron skin. And the only reason why 2 hours of survival is "pushing" rhino's abilities is because he can't handle those levels. Going 2 hours with nova, trinity, nyx, chroma, valkyr, wukong, or loki isn't "pushing" their abilities at all. Their powers can last much longer. A vauban, banshee, trinity, and nekros can go 3 hours no problem. I know because I was the nekros lol. Rhino can't do that. It's a shame because he's so awesome. What a waste.

[NogginMasher]

Look, CC scales well. The frames you and I both mentioned, nova, Nyx, Loki, Vauban, are CC frames. Valkyr tanking scales well because she is invincible, no one can beat that. Iron skin doesn't scale well into 2 hrs. IT DOESN'T NEED TO. You balance iron skin for 2-3 hr survival, you ruin it for everything less than that. 2 hrs is on the leaderboard because it is hard to do, and because people don't usually do it. I play far more missions that last 10 minutes or less than I play missions that last 2+ hours. If self damage was brought back, the 10 minutes missions that most people do most of the time would become trivial. Rhino would go back to noob frame, and become a crutch for new players. Pushing iron skin to the point that only 2 hr survival missions can kill him would make him horribly unbalanced.

 

Balance the main part of the game, not the extremes.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

2 hours ago, NogginMasher said:

Look, CC scales well. The frames you and I both mentioned, nova, Nyx, Loki, Vauban, are CC frames. Valkyr tanking scales well because she is invincible, no one can beat that. Iron skin doesn't scale well into 2 hrs. IT DOESN'T NEED TO. You balance iron skin for 2-3 hr survival, you ruin it for everything less than that. 2 hrs is on the leaderboard because it is hard to do, and because people don't usually do it. I play far more missions that last 10 minutes or less than I play missions that last 2+ hours. If self damage was brought back, the 10 minutes missions that most people do most of the time would become trivial. Rhino would go back to noob frame, and become a crutch for new players. Pushing iron skin to the point that only 2 hr survival missions can kill him would make him horribly unbalanced.

 

Balance the main part of the game, not the extremes.

I actually suggested something in a previous thread that you may like. I suggested bringing back self-damage, but making damage absorption 50%, not like is is now and affected by strength mods, so that it can be even more powerful, but requires more than 200% power strength. Would you say this is more balanced since maxed self damage would at most increase health by 8,000 which isn't that much until a lot of power strength is added. Btw, iron skin without self damage cheese those 10 minute missions. He cheesed it before his buff. He was always the "noob frame" (although I highly disagree)

Edited March 1, 2016 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Nulak]

15 hours ago, NogginMasher said:

Players did shoot themselves in the feet with angstrums and kulstars to buff iron skin, and DE removed that.

Players did QA for a game company, for free and they fixed it. Like 90% of the game company nowadays. 

[(PSN)Crixus044]

22 hours ago, AnzeBozic said:

Hey here is an idea. Why do we just make our rework topics on this forum and post links here and we will have enough stuff to critisize each other till either rhino gets deformed from all the tweaking he got or till the game program simply decomposes itself. So whos with me? Ok i will go firs: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/617534-rhino-rework-yes-again/

 

lol. My turn?

[Zarozian]

On 3/2/2016 at 4:59 PM, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

lol. My turn?

Do it lad!