Rhino Changes Feedback [U18 Megathread]

[TheHUNKMrDeath]

I would love to test Rhino with 700 armor, however I must admit that such amount of armor is relatively over the top. Besides - it it not sure if DE will change his armor rating anyway, thus we can argue about stats without any real effects on the game.

[Zarozian]

What is a Iron Skin Gate?

 

-A Iron Skin Gate is a mechanic that prevents our Iron Skin dropping too rapidly! 

 

Why should we have one?

 

- Our Iron Skin is either going to be too tanky or too weak, with no middle ground the balance it out. When fighting stronger and multiple harder enemies it just drops and runs out and we would die in that split second during recast!

 

We would have no time to prepare ourselves to get a safe distance away, or while we're trying to revive allies in the heat of battle! >;( 

 

- A iron skin gate would enrich gameplay by removing one-shot kills.

 

- It will allow Rhino's freedom to react accordingly and how they choose to react to multiple high damage enemies and various situations without removing the enemy's threat.

 

- The fact that one-shot kills exist is a reason why rhino is less popular than tanks like Valkyr.

 

- It gives Rhinos much bit more build freedom by allowing use of other things besides specialized niche builds + tactics(such as heavy CC spam in order to not get hit).

 

 

 

 

 

Iron Skin Gate features

 

- Iron Skin Gate - Iron Skin will have a 1 sec invulnerability every time Iron Skin HP drops 25%, before damage begins to leak into the next 25%.

 

- Iron Skin Break Invulnerability(ISBI) - Protects health for 1 second immediately after Iron Skin has been depleted(Has a cooldown of 60 seconds). Note: The duration of the invulnerable phase is based on the duration of the smoky flakes that appears when our Iron Skin fades.

 

Picture of the smoky fade for reference:

Sexy.

 

 

That smoke lasts for 1 second.

 

The cooldown would only apply to the invulnerability(ISBI) period.

 

- Self-harm damage would completely bypass all iron skin gate features to prevent abuse.

 

Why is the invulnerability(ISBI) necessary?

 

The invulnerability is necessary to facilitate the survival of Rhino under hordes of enemy fire. Without this feature the gating effect would be insufficient as the player is frequently receiving fire from multiple sources.

 

Here's a scenario detailing the Iron Skin Gate:

 

Scenario

 

Your Rhino has 1200(100%).

 

You get shot by a bullet that deals 1000 damage.

 

You are left with 900(75%).

 

Another bullet dealing 400 damage hits you but you don't take damage for 1.0 seconds. 

 

After that a third bullet hits you.

 

You are left with 600(50%) which results in another 1.0 sec invulnerability phase.

 

Your butt would be saved so many times by this.

 

Synopsis

 

A Iron Skin Gate will allow Rhino players the freedom to allow more variety in their builds, in high level/endless play without trivializing the enemy threat, or having a profound effect on lower levels by giving shields a small but greatly beneficial effect. It will also allow maximization for any and all Rhino builds. Should players want to maximize on becoming completely tanky without any duration, they are able to do so, and should a player want to go full CC with Rhino, they can do so as well without entirely jeopardizing their tankiness!

 

Inspired by: Sentient's Damage Resistance Adaption & EmptyDevil's thread on Shield Gates:

[Zarozian]

^one question^

Are you able to recast ironskin while in ISBI?

 

And sexy is not what i would use to describe that rhino but i do like his colors :)

Silence traitor! >; (

 

And yes you can~

[phetaduck]

Played Rhino a lot since the "rework". He's as useless as before. Charge does cosmetic damage and weak CC. Iron Skin marginally better than before. Roar is useless because range and liw damage buff. Stomp is laughable as ult. Unfortunately, Rhino belong to other garbage frames, that have no place in sorties.

[Zarozian]

Played Rhino a lot since the "rework". He's as useless as before. Charge does cosmetic damage and weak CC. Iron Skin marginally better than before. Roar is useless because range and liw damage buff. Stomp is laughable as ult. Unfortunately, Rhino belong to other garbage frames, that have no place in sorties.

 

The rework wasn't really a buff at all sadly.

 

I still feel as strong as I did before the rework, not much of an improvement, other than being able to use charge.

[Qynchou]

hahaha, if rhino gets 700 base armor you'll be able to EASILY tank level 150 enemies, which no other frame in the game can effectively do, except for valkyr.

 

stop being ridiculous.

[TheHUNKMrDeath]

hahaha, if rhino gets 700 base armor you'll be able to EASILY tank level 150 enemies, which no other frame in the game can effectively do, except for valkyr.

 

stop being ridiculous.

At the moment - Rhino without his iron skin can not tank anything. THAT is ridiculous.

However previous posts gave me and idea for pasive - "Iron Grace" - when Rhino is 5HP from death, he stops receiving dmg and iron skin pops up (if U have enough energy).

[TheHUNKMrDeath]

Lol so all you have to do is mentain a little energy (which is really easy with max efficiancy and 200 large energy restores, oh and you just might get ev trinity in squad) and you would be immortal. Yeah no way this is going to happen unless you limit it somehow.

 

And no frame really is capable of tanking without using abilities.

With the first statement I could agree to some degree, however tanking capabilities of Rhino (Tank) are lower than Excalibur (Swordsman) + Valkyr (Berserk) can really tank without 4 if she wants to.

And now about energy - if U have energy restores U can have Valkyr immortal for that matter with her 4. U can have Trin immortal because of her skill set, without any restores. I have mentioned 2 possible pasives - choice is yours.

[-N7-Leonhart]

I suppose Rihno's complete power is not obvious for everyone. With the right build, he is more that worthy of a tank, but if you didn't figured that already I am not going to enlighten you. I suppose newbies should go to their Valkyr and come back to Rihno when they learned to create their own builds, instead of waiting for an youtuber to post a "new and OP build".

Edited December 28, 2015 by -BM-StormVanguard

[TheHUNKMrDeath]

And well maybe you can have immortal valkyr and trin but still a passive that saves your butt almost every time? Thats a bit cheap for passive dont you think? It would make rhino more compareable as tank to some other frames but i highly doubt DE would do that in this way.

I can not really argue about that because you are right, that would be cheap. However we can both agree, that 190 armor for a "tank" is a little bit low, don't you think ?

[Ronyn]

Well yeah that can also be true, i mean, thats already something else than passive. I wouldnt mind rhino having more armor. But its not a perfect solution to all rhinos problems as some may think, but would work for a start cuz apparently DE likes to take things slowly when it comes to rhino.

I'd say more armor is the right place to start on a solution, not the total and complete solution in itself.

[TheHUNKMrDeath]

My first idea for pasive was 50% of total armor affecting shields, but I am not sure, how others would respond to that.

[Qynchou]

At the moment - Rhino without his iron skin can not tank anything. THAT is ridiculous.

However previous posts gave me and idea for pasive - "Iron Grace" - when Rhino is 5HP from death, he stops receiving dmg and iron skin pops up (if U have enough energy).

How exactly would that change anything? Youre basically asking to lower the skill ceiling. Just watch your own iron skin HP and recast (augment) when its low.

 

Newsflash everybody: Rhino isnt supposed to tank without iron skin, hence, you know, his main tanking and signature ability being iron skin. Also it scales with ironclad charge with which you can easily get over 2000 armor.

[TheHUNKMrDeath]

How exactly would that change anything? Youre basically asking to lower the skill ceiling. Just watch your own iron skin HP and recast (augment) when its low.

 

Newsflash everybody: Rhino isnt supposed to tank without iron skin, hence, you know, his main tanking and signature ability being iron skin. Also it scales with ironclad charge with which you can easily get over 2000 armor.

So basicly you've just said that you need augments to make him work. For the recast of iron skin you need iron shrapnel augment, and for the that "2000 armor" buff you need another augment (it has a timer).

Besides - have you seen later comments, rather than dig up irrelevant one at the moment.

[Qynchou]

So basicly you've just said that you need augments to make him work. For the recast of iron skin you need iron shrapnel augment, and for the that "2000 armor" buff you need another augment (it has a timer).

Besides - have you seen later comments, rather than dig up irrelevant one at the moment.

He works without augments, augments push him into endgame lv80+ enemies.

 

You can EASILY get a 10k hp iron skin without any augments, just by pressing 2, if you think thats not sufficient for sub lv50 enemies you dont know what youre talking about.

 

Not really getting this circlejerk, do any of you actually play rhino at all? I feel like none of you actually play rhino, let alone main him.

[Raddet]

Posted 22 December 2015 - 12:59 PM

Raddet, on 22 Dec 2015 - 5:42 PM, said:

Hi.
I write here to talk about how in fact iron skin is actually useless and how simply this problem could be solved.

Iron skin basics are good, I mean now, good base health (but not much impressive), anti stat effects and those things....... but at the end of all, just at the moment iron skin should be useful.....it fails, and that moment is when the % of iron skin's health is low. This is cause when you have a 5% health on iron skin, it's similar to not having anything, because when you receive an important amount of damage with a shoot or in a burst, iron skin is really uneffective. This important problem of this skill could be solved easily if it could be recasted as our wish, same as frost's globe, then you could evade that critical moment of having low% health just at spending energy.
I use Rhino regulary, and I find this problem really annoying. No matter how much armor, strengh or whatever increase iron skin health (just considering many posts I saw before, giving posible solutions). You could have 10000 armor and a base health of 50000, but when you were on 1%, it would crash. I can use it with normal health or with high health, when its health becomes lower and I receive a high damage shoot or a burst of damage, I can die easily. Just using numbers........having its health at 1% with intensify, power drift and steel fiber (3800 health) is the same as having an iron skin with 38 health....well, that's not good in any case. The problem is that I can't do anything when I have it at 1%, just w8 to receive any non lethal damage that make me able to recast it, but if damage is high enough, rhino's iron skin is totally useless.
Everyone is giving ideas to improve this poor rhino that doesn't find its way, but all the ideas are useless if you don't change that base problema. I repeat, no matter how much armor, health or whatever that makes it having 9999999 health. When it is at 1% and you receive a high damage shoot or burst.......YOU WILL DIE.
Plz consider to rework that skill because is not a problem of being much or less OP, it's simply that this skill doesn't works as expected when its %health is low. Just a simply rework that allows us to recasting the skill would solve it completely.
I apreciate all changes made to rhino in the last times, but this is a base problem that have to be solved, so I wish you consider it as soon as possible.

Thanks and keep improving this nice game.

It can be recast. Its called iron shrapnel.

 

 

 

We know there is a skill that do the recast, but what we are talking about is that it should be a base purpose of Iron skin.....can't spend a mod slot with a frame that needs every slot we can spend on necessary mods to lose one just to recast that skill and make it useful.

 

And I will repeat it everytime, no matter how much armor, strengh or whatever you want to use to increase its base health.........you will die if you have a low % and receive a high damage shoot or a burst. Yes, we can use Iron shrapnel.......but losing, duration, vitality, range.....all that thing Rhino needs and make it that good support frame it is.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Raddet

[Ronyn]

Newsflash everybody: Rhino isnt supposed to tank without iron skin,...

According to who? Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning whether rhino should be able to wade into level 100 enemies with no power active. lol

But who says that part of his intended design isn't to take a certain amount of punishment outside of iron skin? That in mind, how much exactly would that be?

 

He works without augments, augments push him into endgame lv80+ enemies.

 

You can EASILY get a 10k hp iron skin without any augments, just by pressing 2, if you think thats not sufficient for sub lv50 enemies you dont know what youre talking about.

So then, do you believe that frames should have to rely on augments to do end game 80+ content?

 

Not really getting this circlejerk, do any of you actually play rhino at all? I feel like none of you actually play rhino, let alone main him.

This kind of talk is out of line.

[(PSN)HELLHOUND_ROCKO]

i was testing Post-U18 Rhino Prime on my Platform for a while now (without Self Damage Abusing, even though i hear it might still be possible on PS4 - and without Void-Laser Semi Self Damage Abusing) - and i have got to say: i'm quite happy with the Buffs. 

 

the ability to recast Stomp is very welcome, although it is not much of useful without refreshing the Stasis Timers though - that could really use tweaking or otherwise normal/ near normal Duration Builds still remain the best course of action unless one want's to end up with Enemies falling outta Stasis at different times - so refreshing the Stomp every around 8 seconds remains safer, which is on the other hand fine too IMO. 

 

Roar should still be made recastable though - as it would gain Rhinos no anyhow gamebreaking advantage but would only allow them to support their Squads better while bringing more much needed usefulness to the underused corresponding Augment Mod. 

 

and with the Survivability Buffs my Rhino Prime can finally wrestle with Level 150 Enemies in the Void Solo just fine (maybe even with higher Level Enemies in the Void Solo - but i haven't tested it above Level 150 Solo yet) - but since Wukong and prolly Valkyr too can wrestle with Level 300 Enemies in the Void without too much of effort into their Loadouts, i still simply expect an Armor Buff to Rhino - for DE's stated intent with Rhino as one of the top Tanks in Warframe IT SHOULD HAPPEN - unless DE is planning on nerfing Wukong's, Valkyr's and maybe Chroma's Tank that is. 

 

but it is still awesome especially for Melee Combat that Iron Skin protects not just from the Damage of a few Toxin and Slash Procs here and there for the sakes of comfort - but that it also protects from the near Instant Kills from certain Ancients who don't even need to be high in Level to achive that - as this Attacks entirely bypass not just Shields but also any Armor, regardless of how high it is buffed from Mods and active Powers like Vex Armor - which is something most People entirely overlook when comparing for example Rhino and SoS-SotD Nekros with other Frames it seems.

 

and the Passive - well, it's there, buggy, limited in usefulness, not unique - but also kinda fun, a few Buffs and Fixes it could use, sure - but it's overall IMO already about decent for a Passive (as it seems to me like DE's intent with the Passives in general is that they are not supposed to be anything super useful/ super advantageous anyway). 

 

and finally: Charge - the most big surprise to me with this small Rework. when i had read that Rhino has gotten his Charge replaced by a "Landslide-Like Power" with "less Range" and "no Melee Mod Interaction" i was pretty stunned and assumed the worst (including that it would have become a lock-on Power) - but now after testing it for a while i've gotta say: it's sweet (and thankfully no lock-on Power)! 

 

so before U18 my Arcane Vanguard Rhino Prime's main Loadouts Charge was this: with 156% Duration it was a 40 Meters instant Charge for not too much decreased Energy Cost - and it was used by mine like NEVER outside of winning races to Extraction unnecessarily. 

 

but my Post-U18 Rhino Charge is this: with being constantly under the effects of Roar at around doubled Strength, it deals decent Damage to near everything outside of endless Missions at Combo Level 3 - and thanks to maximum Energy Overflow from my Zenurik Focus and just 125%-135% Efficiency i can constantly keep it at Combo Level 3 without loosing Energy. and it's Range at even just normal Range Modifier on Rhino, but especially at just 145% Range on him already seems pretty substantial to me given that it costs me no Energy and that it can therefore be used breaklessly and indefinitely. 

 

in short - for me it changed from a great Utility Tool mainly for Movement that i did use like never to an almost like Gameplay Mode of Rhino.

 

an almost Gameplay Mode of Rhino that makes him super Agile by default, deals decent Damage (and heavy CC) to near everything outside of endless Missions, makes Rhino near impossible to stop for his Enemies on the Field, allows him to do something when either per Power Use or per Weapon Use nuking Squadmates attempt to get all the Kills for themselves (getting around so fast with this great Linear and additionally small Radius Damage+CC AoE does the trick) - and on top of that it is pretty fun stuff to do for a change as well.

 

thank you for this new Rhino Charge DE, you surprised me a lot with it - now please just finally give Rhino/ Prime the Armor Buffs they deserve, make Roar recastable - and fix the Triggerability Issues with Heavy Impact as well as maybe increasing it's Range and Damage a little. 

Edited December 29, 2015 by (PS4)HELLHOUND_ROCKO

[Qynchou]

According to who? Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning whether rhino should be able to wade into level 100 enemies with no power active. lol

But who says that part of his intended design isn't to take a certain amount of punishment outside of iron skin? That in mind, how much exactly would that be?

 

So then, do you believe that frames should have to rely on augments to do end game 80+ content?

 

This kind of talk is out of line.

Your solutions are mediocre at best, be offended but Im telling like it is. You dont just do a kneejerk reaction to a problem like buffing the armor from 275 to 700. If that was the case hed be extremely overpowered defensively. 700 base armor isnt a bit of punishment, its the most punishment in the game , thats the highest base armor value hed have, in the game, and then youd have iron skin that would go up to 51-100k hp.

 

What I would agree on would be increasing his base armor but reducing iron skin HP per armor point.

 

So If you want 700 base armor his iron skin HP per armor point would have to go down from 2,5 to 1. I understand your point of bringing the gap closer, but just buffing the armor without changing anything else would break rhino (which so far thats been the only suggestion here, JUST buffing armor).

[Ronyn]

Your solutions are mediocre at best, be offended but Im telling like it is. You dont just do a kneejerk reaction to a problem like buffing the armor from 275 to 700. 

Wow. I never suggested raising his armor to 700 that was someone else. You don't even know who you are talking to. lol

 

BTW-I'm not "offended", I'm just telling you that using phrases like "circle jerk" are out of line with the forums code of conduct.

And before you spout your mess about none of us playing rhino you might at lest recognize that there are many different viewpoints being expressed here. 

 

 

 I understand your point of bringing the gap closer, but just buffing the armor without changing anything else would break rhino (which so far thats been the only suggestion here, JUST buffing armor).

There have been more than just that suggestion in this thread though it has mostly been focused on that aspect

For what it's worth I have made it a point to say that I think raising his armor is a good start to the solution (though I never said 700) but I also said higher armor is not the total solution in itself.

[(PSN)Daikon177]

Ive been playing rhino since i started warframe and hes always been my main and i started when nekros was the new frame on the block. I think his changes are good and im fairly happy with him. Now ive just started playing again after taking a break for some time so i havent tried some of these new tank frames out so i dont know how they compare. If DE decides to buff rhino there a are a few things that i think they could do.

First move the 3 seconds on absorb to the last 1% of IS so you have a few seconds to get out of the situation and also like many have said, make it recastable (yes i know about the augment that does that) . This would prevent any self damage/death orb lazer abuse and give you those 3 seconds when you really need it.

Second give charge the abilities of iron clad charge so this ability is actually useful, we shouldnt have to use augments to make abilities useful. Give charge a new augment if you want but thats how it needs to work in the first place.

Third give him more armor. Im not asking for a ton of armor, especially if they do my second suggestion but i think everyone agrees this needs to happen. Not everyone seems to agree on a number but we all think its a little to low now.

Like i said im pretty happy with the changes they already made but if they decide to look at him again i think these might be some decent changes.

Edited December 30, 2015 by (PS4)DA_HEFF_

[(PSN)LegionOfZoom1410]

Rhino Changes are nice but could be alot better especially Iron Skin....

I ran With Rhino in A Shortie Yesterday & granted I didn't die I was very disappointed to see the HP ticker still depletes Iron Skin way to fast like before the update.

The thing is DE you guys mentioned it would work just like Frost snow globe & atlas Tentonics

But those 2 abilities last twice as long & are more effective then iron skin..

Rhino is supposed to be a tank even u guys admitted he's a tank frame but he doesn't work like one.

In the view stats with mods section I'm only getting 8k farriet Armor with all power str + armor mods

Yet I see people who get there's up to 14 k to 20k I'm not sure how there doing that but if I could get it there then Rhino would work as intended & he would finally be on part with frost & atlas

That said iron skin doesn't work like u guys said & the fact is it won't work until u give it the same health as Frost snow globe & at last Tentonics & able to last as long in high missions

That's the way it should work only then will it be perfect DE can you plz fix this to work as intended

It's better 4 sure but not quite there & clearly not as advertised like u said

A 4k farrairt armor increase with mods is not really much of an upgrade.

I know u guys are looking at feedback & I hope u consider making him work as advertised thx de happy holidays

[TrueHawkEye]

There is something I've noticed with rhino that is either a bug or intended.

 

-If you have fleeting expertise (maxed) and streamline maxed rhino efficiency is stuck at 175

 

                             +60                                      +30                        =                                 190

 

So I dont know if this is an error or intended.

[(PSN)Daikon177]

There is something I've noticed with rhino that is either a bug or intended.

-If you have fleeting expertise (maxed) and streamline maxed rhino efficiency is stuck at 175

+60 +30 = 190

So I dont know if this is an error or intended.

Pretty sure Efficiency Is capped at +175% but i may be wrong

[TrueHawkEye]

Pretty sure Efficiency Is capped at +175% but i may be wrong

Ah if that is the case , I can throw away streamline and put in something else.