Pvp Is Too Slow

[Renegade343]

Hyperbole isn´t a useful argument - unless you are serious and are saying that you can´t tell the difference between a slow-paced shooter and Warframe because they reduced the average speed by like 0.1 - in which case get your eyes checked.

It actually is very similar to slow-paced PVP shooters now. By inspection, I did compare sprinting down a lane in Warframe with sprinting down a lane with roughly the similar length in Call of Duty, and both of them feel similar for the most part. 

 

Pvp is still fast - if your current speed doesn´t suit you mod for more or pick a faster frame or both. PvE most definitly should not be the standard for how Pvp should work - I am just fine with them adjusting the average speed as long as they give reasonable options which let me go fast.

My point is: 

 

Mod should not be mandatory for fast gameplay because Warframe Conclave has always differentiated itself as a fast-paced shooter with parkour right off the bat. Having that now be done only through mods removes that uniqueness, and makes it less appealing. 

 

Also, PVE should set some standards for PVP (and I need to find that Devstream that stated there would be consistency between PVE and PVP again), because it is more likely that a player would play PVE first before going off to PVP, and with the major differences in PVP now, from almost no easily acquired mods from PVE (I am still bitter about the decision to remove Hush and Suppress by the way, simply because it just treated the symptom, not the root cause) (stances are a bit of a mixed bag now, with slide attacks also staggering on hit) to weapon damage changes to heavy mobility changes, one is justified in wondering why is PVP not a fully separate game from Warframe. 

 

Also just because you prefer something doesn´t mean that it is "mandatory" - the world doesn´t just revolve around you, other people will have different preferences. The entire point of the modding system in pvp should be that you can use it to adjust your loadout if the default doesn´t suit you. I hate how people constantly want to overthrow that aspect because they expect that what they want should be the default and screw evryone else. This is such a pointless exercise - there will always be a group of people who doesn´t like the default who than demands change because they can´t be arsed to use mods. I like it fast as well so guess what? I use the damn mods.

See above post about Conclave's uniqueness. Uniqueness is what attracts players. U17 was in a good spot because new players can still fight back without using mobility mods, skilled players can really shine with or without the use of mobility mods, and it was exciting to play in. Also, you need three mods to actually get the fast pace back. Three mandatory mods for fast-paced gameplay, in which all of them are either: 

 

1. Locked behind Conclave Points (which is fine, except for a small point about needing to rank up a lot to access them).

2. Locked behind End of Match rewards (so rolling the dice and pray to whatever entity you believe in to get those mobility mods). 

 

If I have to go through all of this to get that fast-paced feeling back, or at least make mobility have some semblance to PVE, then why should I bother smashing my head in to re-obtain the once innate uniqueness of Conclave, especially for new players who would feel this change more harshly? 

 

Also, with a good percentage of Conclave players, both in forums and in matches I played, complaining about speed decreases in Conclave, I would wager that it is not just me asking for reverting or tweaking to make things faster again. 

[HoakinBlackforge]

U WOT

 

Pvp is already damn fast to me.

[Burnthesteak87]

Yeah, but Prideseekers want it to be super-skillful to prove the World and themselves they're Gods among casual players...

That's the fate of PVP.

[Renegade343]

Yeah, but Prideseekers want it to be super-skillful to prove the World and themselves they're Gods among casual players...

That's the fate of PVP.

I want PVP to be fun, and for this PVP, the fun lies in fast movement and decent aiming. I do not care about ego, proving myself as a god or whatnot; I want PVP to be fun and also relevant to the skills from PVE, with respect to movement and aiming. 

 

You know what? I think I would just wait for private Conclave matches and see if they allow for good customisation. If so, I will leave public Conclave be, unless there is something gamebreaking. 

[Burnthesteak87]

I want PVP to be fun, and for this PVP, the fun lies in fast movement and decent aiming. I do not care about ego, proving myself as a god or whatnot; I want PVP to be fun and also relevant to the skills from PVE, with respect to movement and aiming. 

 

You know what? I think I would just wait for private Conclave matches and see if they allow for good customisation. If so, I will leave public Conclave be, unless there is something gamebreaking. 

That's your idea of PVP, let's see what DE thinks.

[Renegade343]

That's your idea of PVP, let's see what DE thinks.

But it is a PVP that most active players enjoy. 

[Phasedragon]

On the contrary, the nerfing of tanks has driven most players to higher mobility frames. That combined with the changes and additions to mobility mods, and I find most matches to actually be far faster than they've ever been, and I'm having a hard time keeping up in fact. I'm sure I'll adjust, but no, it does not need to be faster.

Edited December 7, 2015 by PhaseShifted

[Burnthesteak87]

But it is a PVP that most active players enjoy. 

Most active players? Numbers? 20 forum users following the PVP section?

Most active players are a minority of the total community.

There are people which, in spite of being used to play PVP on other games, totally avoid Warframe's because of its imbalance (cause it's on development of course) or because it's too much harsh.

Also consider that a game mode which results more accessible and "easy"(in its learning curve) for most of the player base is going to lure more people, instead than rejecting and discouraging them (exactly what's happening recently).

 

[Phasedragon]

Most active players? Numbers? 20 forum users following the PVP section?

Most active players are a minority of the total community.

There are people which, in spite of being used to play PVP on other games, totally avoid Warframe's because of its imbalance (cause it's on development of course) or because it's too much harsh.

Also consider that a game mode which results more accessible and "easy"(in its learning curve) for most of the player base is going to lure more people, instead than rejecting and discouraging them (exactly what's happening recently).

 

So you want to balance the game towards the random people who play a couple times and then leave, rather than the people who've played pvp for years? Yeah, ok. 

 

If you're concerned with being stomped all the time, that's perfectly fine. Warframe has a very high skill level so obviously there are going to be differences. If that's the case, then you should be arguing for better, rank-based matchmaking, not crippling the players who play and love pvp actively.

[Zerga-08]

Yeah, but Prideseekers want it to be super-skillful to prove the World and themselves they're Gods among casual players...

That's the fate of PVP.

 

That's your idea of PVP, let's see what DE thinks.

 

Most active players? Numbers? 20 forum users following the PVP section?

Most active players are a minority of the total community.

There are people which, in spite of being used to play PVP on other games, totally avoid Warframe's because of its imbalance (cause it's on development of course) or because it's too much harsh.

Also consider that a game mode which results more accessible and "easy"(in its learning curve) for most of the player base is going to lure more people, instead than rejecting and discouraging them (exactly what's happening recently).

 

Have you noticed you haven't been constructive at all in the last 3 posts?

 

At OP: I find PvP to be at a weird place right now. It is both faster and slower than it has ever been.

 

Faster because equipping the 3 mobility mods a light or medium frame allows you to go pretty damn fast (I feel like my Nyx Prime reaches Loki speeds while only loosing 15 HP). It is slower though to because a lot of the tanks are now painfully slow, making 2 of the 3 mobility mods mandatory on them.

[Renegade343]

On the contrary, the nerfing of tanks has driven most players to higher mobility frames. That combined with the changes and additions to mobility mods, and I find most matches to actually be far faster than they've ever been, and I'm having a hard time keeping up in fact. I'm sure I'll adjust, but no, it does not need to be faster.

And there is the problem: Mandatory use of mods and/or fast Warframes to get the feeling back. Mobility was fine where it was with U17; there were just a few outliers with health and problems with damage types, not mobility. 

 

And before anyone says, "Then use those.", do bear in mind that: 

 

A: Those mods can be difficult to acquire.

B: I do not use Warframes for the stats; I use them because I like its aesthetics or whatnot (alright, and to have the speed I can get in PVE without having to smash my head in to obtain the mods necessary for it). 

[Phasedragon]

And there is the problem: Mandatory use of mods and/or fast Warframes to get the feeling back. Mobility was fine where it was with U17; there were just a few outliers with health and problems with damage types, not mobility. 

 

And before anyone says, "Then use those.", do bear in mind that: 

 

A: Those mods can be difficult to acquire.

B: I do not use Warframes for the stats; I use them because I like its aesthetics or whatnot (alright, and to have the speed I can get in PVE without having to smash my head in to obtain the mods necessary for it). 

As much as I agree with you on choosing based on aesthetics, I think your entire premise is slightly off the mark. Tanks need to be removed effectively by lowering their ehp and increasing their mobility. Average and even squishy frames are in a good spot right now.

[Renegade343]

As much as I agree with you on choosing based on aesthetics, I think your entire premise is slightly off the mark. Tanks need to be removed effectively by lowering their ehp and increasing their mobility. Average and even squishy frames are in a good spot right now.

I already have a rough draft of a solution in mind, with respect to mobility and health: 

 

Innate mobility values from 0.85 - 1.1 (85% to 110% of PVE parkour speed), corresponding to effective health values from 250 - 166 (166 is normal Loki's effective health, without anything else) in a linear relationship (so that things would run more smoothly). All damage types are now gone, and elemental weaponry are differentiated by the status effect it can inflict (with altered resistances, such as Fire DOT only dealing +5% - +10% to Flesh), so that there would be no more obviously dominant damage types and throwing more wrenches into the system. This would also come with a lot of adjusting weapon damage stats. 

 

Mobility mods will only go up to ±0.05 at max rank (with corresponding decreases/increases in health/shields such that the linear relationship is still held), and the elemental bullet jumps mod will not give additional mobility. I am not so sure about how to tweak Low Current Leap at the moment though. Final Act and Tactical Retreat seem to be fine mods for now, given its requirements, but time will tell. 

 

EDIT: Forgot one thing: Prime Warframes will just be cosmetically different to their normal counterparts. That is to streamline balancing. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by Renegade343

[Naftal]

Mobility should always be kept the same as it is in pve. Same with weapon mechanics etc. Only damage and ehp values should be changed to be balanced in a pvp environment. (And of course power stats like they already are)

Edited December 7, 2015 by Naftal

[ElijahZayd]

to all those who say "bawwww pvp too slowww" not everyone is one of those twitchy players that can do 100 actions per second, let normal people play too, 

[Nighttide77]

I have to play a good few more matches to get a better feel for things, but last night I played with Limbo, +mobility -shield Ash Prime, and Frost Prime. Limbo felt pretty fast, like Loki Prime did before the update, and would be great for hit and run tactics. Ash Prime + mobility mod didn't feel any different from before, personally. Frost Prime definitely felt a little slower because of the loss of slide velocity, but I was still able to get around, double jump/aim-glide/etc to be a harder target, and take more than what I felt was my fair share of damage.

To a large extent, the movement restrictions make it feel more like only veterans who were used to specific movement mechanics got nerfed, while all the newbies and casual players had nothing serious happen to them. It's like veterans got nerfed to be unable to move much differently than casual players, unless they're using light frames that allow them to basically fly across the map and barely touch the ground.

[Lordricker]

The movement nerf seems ok, i mean at least they still give us the ability to move as fast as we did before, they could have just not given us mobility mods but i think that is a very good example of what modding is about. I used to play valkyr all the time but now she moves like a brick so now she is my tank frame (using the +hp -mobility) and i use nyx (+mobility -hp) for hit and run while jumping off ALL the walls cause i still find that fun. Honestly for me the pick between the two completely depends on the match and how the others are playing cause nyx gets shot out of the sky by autos :/

 

I agree that the nerf to movement was a slap since the frames that we used to use (mine valkyr) now feel like bricks. I currently still feel like movement should be buffed just a TINY bit, but that might change the more i get used to the movement now. I think the biggest benefit now is that not everyone is running around with tanks like they used to and squishy frames are ACTUALLY VIABLE

[Renegade343]

A note: I am still managing (sort of) with Conclave without all those mobility mods, but it really, really feels different from how I play in PVE now, or just the speed in PVE in general (apart from Sortie Missions). 

 

I have to play a good few more matches to get a better feel for things, but last night I played with Limbo, +mobility -shield Ash Prime, and Frost Prime. Limbo felt pretty fast, like Loki Prime did before the update, and would be great for hit and run tactics. Ash Prime + mobility mod didn't feel any different from before, personally. Frost Prime definitely felt a little slower because of the loss of slide velocity, but I was still able to get around, double jump/aim-glide/etc to be a harder target, and take more than what I felt was my fair share of damage.

Yes, I know one can still get around, but I am still wondering why the decision to decrease mobility when decreasing effective health was also a viable choice, and would probably affect less of the feel of Conclave. 

 

To a large extent, the movement restrictions make it feel more like only veterans who were used to specific movement mechanics got nerfed, while all the newbies and casual players had nothing serious happen to them. It's like veterans got nerfed to be unable to move much differently than casual players, unless they're using light frames that allow them to basically fly across the map and barely touch the ground.

The new players I see seem to be adequate enough to move quickly before U18 Conclave, which is why I question the decision to decrease initial mobility, then give mods to gain them back. 

 

The movement nerf seems ok, i mean at least they still give us the ability to move as fast as we did before, they could have just not given us mobility mods but i think that is a very good example of what modding is about. I used to play valkyr all the time but now she moves like a brick so now she is my tank frame (using the +hp -mobility) and i use nyx (+mobility -hp) for hit and run while jumping off ALL the walls cause i still find that fun. Honestly for me the pick between the two completely depends on the match and how the others are playing cause nyx gets shot out of the sky by autos :/

 

I agree that the nerf to movement was a slap since the frames that we used to use (mine valkyr) now feel like bricks. I currently still feel like movement should be buffed just a TINY bit, but that might change the more i get used to the movement now. I think the biggest benefit now is that not everyone is running around with tanks like they used to and squishy frames are ACTUALLY VIABLE

As I have said multiple times before: Conclave had differentiated itself by being quick without the definite use of mods, allowing players to choose whatever Warframe they want to play as and what mods they fancy. That is the definition of modding; mods should not be required to be equipped in order to gain a benefit that should have been innate in the first place. Mods should:

 

A: Be optional, only equipped if the player wants to. 

B: Not end up being too powerful against the others. 

 

This is more crucial in PVP than in PVE (not that mods in PVE should not be tweaked), for PVP is against other players than AI. 

[Nighttide77]

-snip-

Most all the newbies/casuals I played against didn't know the tricks and stuff to mobility mechanics, and thus I was usually running in circles around them. I guess your experience was different.

From what little I experienced I would guess mobility was decreased because most players don't play hardcore and thus their brains aren't as developed. Perhaps it helps even the playing field a little more.

The slower mobility does make the matches a little less hectic...to an extent, somewhat a little more enjoyable when I don't want that much stress.

[rockscl]

The new players I see seem to be adequate enough to move quickly before U18 Conclave, which is why I question the decision to decrease initial mobility, then give mods to gain them back. 

 

 

the latest changes of speed are an answer to the demands of the veterans that fills the forum, noobs arent here at all, veterans complained because speed and tanks, and DE answered making speed optional, yes it is optional, not mandatory

 

 

As I have said multiple times before: Conclave had differentiated itself by being quick without the definite use of mods, allowing players to choose whatever Warframe they want to play as and what mods they fancy. That is the definition of modding; mods should not be required to be equipped in order to gain a benefit that should have been innate in the first place. Mods should:

 

A: Be optional, only equipped if the player wants to. 

B: Not end up being too powerful against the others. 

 

 

now mods are optional, long time ago, in another age, you actually needed not only mods but specific weapons to move around

 

DE is making a nice job, and looks like most ppl underestimate their balancing logics, they have proven to me to be handling parameters beyond the player base`s understanding, even if every patch comes with some broken stuff

Edited December 7, 2015 by rockscl

[Renegade343]

The slower mobility does make the matches a little less hectic...to an extent, somewhat a little more enjoyable when I don't want that much stress.

And I am now wishing private Conclave matches allows different Conclave 2.0 versions. 

 

lol, the latest changes of speed are an answer to the demands of the veterans that fills the forum, noobs arent here at all, veterans complained because speed and tanks, and DE answered making speed optional, yes it is optional, not mandatory

We (As in: Veterans in the forums) asked for decrease in effective health for tanks, not mobility. Even more so now. 

 

now mods are optional, long time ago, in another age, you actually needed not only mods but specific weapons to move around

I have experienced the time before Conclave 2.0 (and played quite a lot in it, although to be fair, it was around 70% Dark Sectors PVP), and I found similar speeds by slide + jump at that time, then coptering if I need the extra boost. 

 

You know what? Maybe I am just bitter that the main thing I enjoyed in Conclave is gone, and the only thing to get it back is to painstakingly play Conclave and gain the mobility mods now so that the feeling comes back, rather than gaining instant access to it. 

[Lordricker]

As I have said multiple times before: Conclave had differentiated itself by being quick without the definite use of mods, allowing players to choose whatever Warframe they want to play as and what mods they fancy. That is the definition of modding; mods should not be required to be equipped in order to gain a benefit that should have been innate in the first place. Mods should:

 

A: Be optional, only equipped if the player wants to. 

B: Not end up being too powerful against the others. 

 

This is more crucial in PVP than in PVE (not that mods in PVE should not be tweaked), for PVP is against other players than AI. 

 

The Devs saw we had a problem with tanks (everyone used them) so they are trying this solution, and so far its a pretty decent solution. "Allowing players to choose whatever warframe they want to play as and what mods they fancy" just ended up as play tanks to win :/. I dont understand why you think being fast has to be for every frame? you can be fast but not as a tank what is wrong with that? 

 

The other way they could have fixed the problem would be bring the ehp and the speed closer together for all frames but that would create less diversity so instead they created more diversity by keeping ehp differences and just increasing the differences in speed. 

I still think Mobility should be buffed just a little and equally across all frames

[Renegade343]

The Devs saw we had a problem with tanks (everyone used them) so they are trying this solution, and so far its a pretty decent solution. "Allowing players to choose whatever warframe they want to play as and what mods they fancy" just ended up as play tanks to win :/. I dont understand why you think being fast has to be for every frame? you can be fast but not as a tank what is wrong with that? 

 

The other way they could have fixed the problem would be bring the ehp and the speed closer together for all frames but that would create less diversity so instead they created more diversity by keeping ehp differences and just increasing the differences in speed. 

I still think Mobility should be buffed just a little and equally across all frames

There is a thing called "too much diversity", which causes its own set of problems. Narrowing the range of initial effective health and mobility would keep things balanced while still giving the player a choice on what to play.

[Pythadragon]

There is a thing called "too much diversity", which causes its own set of problems. Narrowing the range of initial effective health and mobility would keep things balanced while still giving the player a choice on what to play.

 

By tweaking the -mobility/+tankiness mods, they decreased the range of EHP possible.

Gone are the days of 443 EHP frost prime vs 144 EHP loki..

 

By changing the +mobility mods to flat bonuses rather than scaling, they decreased the diversity of mobility values.

The mobility gaps between tanks and squishies (with max mobility mods) used to be

0.896 (frost prime) to 1.54 (Loki)

 

That gap is now 0.9 (frost prime/Ash prime ect) to 1.4 (Loki).

 

This latest patch has decreased both the diversity of EHP and mobility.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Pythadragon

[Renegade343]

By tweaking the -mobility/+tankiness mods, they decreased the range of EHP possible.

Gone are the days of 443 EHP frost prime vs 144 EHP loki..

 

By changing the +mobility mods to flat bonuses rather than scaling, they decreased the diversity of mobility values.

The mobility gaps between tanks and squishies (with max mobility mods) used to be

0.896 (frost prime) to 1.54 (Loki)

 

That gap is now 0.9 (frost prime/Ash prime ect) to 1.4 (Loki).

 

This latest patch has decreased both the diversity of EHP and mobility.

It is still quite wide, according to your values.