Pvp: Some Current Srs Can 1 Shot Squishy Enemies, And Rubico's Damage Is Really Wonky

[AlphaSierraMike]

As of now and the sniper rifles that I've used, because of the extra damage buff on scope in on top of Lies In Wait as a multiplicative bonus, Vectis P and Rubico can one shot, as far as I'm aware, Loki and Mirage for certain, Vectis P doing something like 175 damage on Loki. That's not exactly fair, even if the Loki is in invis. And certainly not sporting against Mirage.

 

At the same time, if Rubico's stat is correct, with a base 72 damage, Lies In Wait makes that 115.2, there's a damage discrepancy when body shots with the Rubico was able to one shot Mirages at 160 HP. So, does that mean Rubico's ADS bonus got altered for PvP? If the devs did change the ADS crit based bonuses into damage bonus, it would be nice to actually know the values.

 

Also, put a 3.0x headshot multiplier on the Rubico already, there's nothing more frustrating than running it without Lies In Wait, seeing a yellow number pop up and end up not getting the kill on even the most average frames like Excal

 

Assuming Rubico's stats are correct, it should take 2 shots to kill Ivara at ~175 HP total, the 65 armor not really helping, But somehow I was able to one shot Ivara at 180 damage with a max rank Ripper round. Even if the crit damage ADS effect is changed to a straight up damage effect, that seems off considering most damage bonus only go up to 15% and the Rubico's damage against Ivara is above 50%.

 

It only happens so often, sometimes Ivara will take 2 shot, sometimes 1. So I was thinking it had something to do with the combo meter, but pretty much all of the times my combo meter was right at 0 and I checked that the combo meter doesn't seem to affect damage at all. 

 

It's only really noticeable on Ivara because she's kinda squishy, but not as squishy as Loki and can tank a shot in normal circumstances, so any increase in damage would make it one shot.

 

Kinda wished the devs stuck with the idea of not having IPS, would make checking for these bugs a lot easier....

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Great now theyre going to nerf the snipers to uselessness again.

 

Loki and Mirage are the extreme speed frames. They should get 1 shotted by a sniper. If you are unable to throw off someones aim with that speed. Then it is a matter of skill and not that the snipers are OP. Especially now when all the mid-high EHP frames are rocks

[Feyangol]

[...]

Kinda wished the devs stuck with the idea of not having IPS, would make checking for these bugs a lot easier....

There is a little misunderstanding here.

The devs (at least the pvp team) do not stuck on the idea of having ips, the pvp team just can't remove it. Did you already forget that they wanted to have such a "neutral dmg type", also tried to have one and then the player base found out, that it was not as neutral as we believed in.

[Renegade343]

There is a little misunderstanding here.

The devs (at least the pvp team) do not stuck on the idea of having ips, the pvp team just can't remove it. Did you already forget that they wanted to have such a "neutral dmg type", also tried to have one and then the player base found out, that it was not as neutral as we believed in.

I did wonder at some point if they could hard-code neutral damage into Conclave itself (as in: Just a damage value, nothing more and nothing less). 

Edited December 7, 2015 by Renegade343

[Pythadragon]

There is a little misunderstanding here.

The devs (at least the pvp team) do not stuck on the idea of having ips, the pvp team just can't remove it. Did you already forget that they wanted to have such a "neutral dmg type", also tried to have one and then the player base found out, that it was not as neutral as we believed in.

 

Got a source for that?

 

PS

If all damage were to shift to 100% slash, then that's within 5% (estimate, not calculation) of neutral damage vs most frames...

 

I did wonder at some point if they could hard-code neutral damage into Conclave itself (as in: Just a damage value, nothing more and nothing less). 

 

Arsenal ui for awhile did display 'just damage numbers without ips' for awhile, but damage has never been neutral in Conclave.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Pythadragon

[Renegade343]

Arsenal ui for awhile did display 'just damage numbers without ips' for awhile, but damage has never been neutral in Conclave.

I know that, and I was one of the first to find out damage in Conclaves (around U16) is not neutral. That led me to wonder if the Conclave team could just hard-code neutral damage in Conclave games. 

[Auramaru]

The people getting one-shot by a Sniper chose to accept that fate.

 

If you play a tanky frame, you survive the shot. If you choose a squishy frame, you die to the shot... but you have the mobility to avoid it.

 

This is completely fair.

[Pythadragon]

I know that, and I was one of the first to find out damage in Conclaves (around U16) is not neutral. That led me to wonder if the Conclave team could just hard-code neutral damage in Conclave games. 

 

Misread your post as "I wonder if at some point they did hard-code..."

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

The people getting one-shot by a Sniper chose to accept that fate.

 

If you play a tanky frame, you survive the shot. If you choose a squishy frame, you die to the shot... but you have the mobility to avoid it.

 

This is completely fair.

^ This

 

Yet people will still say snipers are OP 

[Phasedragon]

^ This

Yet people will still say snipers are OP

The problem is that even if they're absolute crap in their function and viability, a oneshotting sniper will make someone stop and go "wtf was that? That's so unfair!" Even if an assault rifle can kill a single enemy faster, a group of enemies faster, require less aim, and be more forgiving.

[Lordricker]

that is because the person shot only knows what happened when they are shot and not what had to happen in the seconds before getting shot that the sniper was setting up the kill. The only way they can know about the setup part is for them to try out a sniper for themselves. Ive had people convinced that the daikyu was the best thing ever, till they tried it out...:/

[Pythadragon]

The problem is that even if they're absolute crap in their function and viability, a oneshotting sniper will make someone stop and go "wtf was that? That's so unfair!" Even if an assault rifle can kill a single enemy faster, a group of enemies faster, require less aim, and be more forgiving.

 

A one shot sniper rifle has a ttk of 0 seconds

An auto rifle has a ttk of something like 0.5-1.5 seconds

 

Don't delude yourself with that.

 

We have never had a one shot sniper rifle in pvp 2.0 except on headshot.

 

The snipetron is currently the most powerful sniper rifle that has ever existed in pvp2.0

The snipetron currently is more powerful than pre nerf vectis.

 

Only charge weapons (opticor) or projectile weapons (bows) should have one bodyshot potential on any frame.

Hitscan sniper weapons should not have one bodyshot potential.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Pythadragon

[Phasedragon]

A one shot sniper rifle has a ttk of 0 seconds

An auto rifle has a ttk of something like 0.5-1.5 seconds

Don't delude yourself with that.

We have never had a one shot sniper rifle in pvp 2.0 except on headshot.

The snipetron is currently the most powerful sniper rifle that has ever existed in pvp2.0

The snipetron currently is more powerful than pre nerf vectis.

Only charge weapons (opticor) or projectile weapons (bows) should have one bodyshot potential on any frame.

Hitscan sniper weapons should not have one bodyshot potential.

If an enemy is even bothering to move around, they still have a pretty good chance of killing with an assault rifle faster than with a sniper. On top of that, being damaged consistently can throw off your aim. I'd also like to throw in that auto rifles make it far too easy to killsteal from snipers while they're reloading or switching to a secondary. Overall auto rifles are just easier to use and more effective. Every time I run into any opposition with my snipetron, I just pull out an mk1 braton and suddenly they aren't a threat anymore.

As I've said before, one shotting squishies doesn't work, but the damage that the snipetron puts out is simply necessary against any decent tank. More than 2 shots is unacceptable unless they've casted a buff power (and one that doesn't absorb damage or can be recasted for instant health like iron skin as it currently is.)

[Shin]

If an enemy is even bothering to move around, they still have a pretty good chance of killing with an assault rifle faster than with a sniper. On top of that, being damaged consistently can throw off your aim. I'd also like to throw in that auto rifles make it far too easy to killsteal from snipers while they're reloading or switching to a secondary. Overall auto rifles are just easier to use and more effective. Every time I run into any opposition with my snipetron, I just pull out an mk1 braton and suddenly they aren't a threat anymore.

As I've said before, one shotting squishies doesn't work, but the damage that the snipetron puts out is simply necessary against any decent tank. More than 2 shots is unacceptable unless they've casted a buff power (and one that doesn't absorb damage or can be recasted for instant health like iron skin as it currently is.)

I agree with this up to a point where you say Snipetron is necessary.

 

What i think necessary is reducing Full auto's damage and headshot damage multipliers and making their reload speeds take longer. Tyranny of Full auto's must end first, then we can talk about balancing frames around Speed and Surviveability. 

 

So long as we have every single weapon deal 2x headshot damage and keep the spray weapons damage this high, we wont get anywhere.

[Pythadragon]

I agree with this up to a point where you say Snipetron is necessary.

 

What i think necessary is reducing Full auto's damage and headshot damage multipliers and making their reload speeds take longer. Tyranny of Full auto's must end first, then we can talk about balancing frames around Speed and Surviveability. 

 

So long as we have every single weapon deal 2x headshot damage and keep the spray weapons damage this high, we wont get anywhere.

 

Nail on the head here for a huge problem with auto guns. Spam guns should not benefit from random double headshot damage. If you can't hit the head intentionally through skill, then you shouldn't get rewarded for it.

 

Headshots for inaccurate auto guns are the same as RNG.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Pythadragon

[JonBenj]

I understand the points of removing headshot multipliers on Auto. But that is going to kill my Burston Prime technique of running the burst up the chest and into the head. Maybe a 1.25 multiplier?

[Shin]

Nail on the head here for a huge problem with auto guns. Spam guns should not benefit from random double headshot damage. If you can't hit the head intentionally through skill, then you shouldn't get rewarded for it.

 

Headshots for inaccurate auto guns are the same as RNG.

Still just removing the headshot multiplier would solve only a part of the problem. Once someone lands their target reticule on you while using a squishy frame like Banshee, chances are you are dead before you react to it if they are using a weapon like Braton. This is simply unacceptable. This whole thing leads people to tanky frames because lets be honest, who likes dying in a split second ?

 

Same thing with some Secondaries, Like why does V.Marelok has higher damage than a sniper rifle? Why are their damage numbers are similar just doesnt make any sense. I see more and more people using this weapon because its a pocket sniper rifle with short reload and fast fire rate. 

[Lordricker]

I think you can fair pretty well with light frames, due to their mobility you can dodge pretty well which is what balances them with the heavier frames

[JonBenj]

Both Mareloks have undependable accuracy. Compared to what they were like in 1.0 where you could hit across the map with spam. They aren't pocket sniper rifles. Maybe at low to mid range they are.

[Shin]

I think you can fair pretty well with light frames, due to their mobility you can dodge pretty well which is what balances them with the heavier frames

Still doesnt change the fact that you die way too fast. Unreasoabiliy fast with too little effort. 

 

 

Both Mareloks have undependable accuracy. Compared to what they were like in 1.0 where you could hit across the map with spam. They aren't pocket sniper rifles. Maybe at low to mid range they are.

That undependable accuracy is what scoring half of the headshots in conclave also in a short to medium range, its way too effective. It is like a pocket sniper rifle if not a shotgun. In the first place their high damage is just straight unbalanced. 

[JonBenj]

Still doesnt change the fact that you die way too fast. Unreasoabiliy fast with too little effort. 

 

 

That undependable accuracy is what scoring half of the headshots in conclave also in a short to medium range, its way too effective. It is like a pocket sniper rifle if not a shotgun. In the first place their high damage is just straight unbalanced. 

 

Yeah, I can agree about the damage, and the Shotgun analogy. Bring the damage down a bit and it should be fine.

[AlphaSierraMike]

Seems like people are generally going for "they have high mobility so they should be able to dodge shots". That's really only the case if requires more than one shot. Even if they move fast enough, the gun only needs that split second for the reticle to hover over the target and click, instant kill. It's not so bad if it's a headshot, because that target is tiny, but a full body as the target to get a one shot kill, that's too easy. And it's also not as big of a problem if it was torso shots that get one shot kills, when its movement in space is more or less in control by the player, but limb shots also one shot kill, and their movement is on the whim of the animation department. The guy could dodge it and still get killed because the character decided to fling his arms out.

 

Besides, landing two shots is barely a nerf, Ideally it's just going to be pre nerf Vectis at 140 damage, that's plenty of damage to two shot all frames but not powerful enough to one shot Loki. Or maybe 149, just in case Valkyr or Frost tanks a bit.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Seems like people are generally going for "they have high mobility so they should be able to dodge shots". 

Well yea. Because it works. 

 

This game is all about mobility, I dont think the P-Team understands that yet. The frames with more mobility will always win, the player with the best grasp of the mobility controls will always win. This pvp has and always will be centralized on movement regardless of the changes they do. Once they realize that movement is an intergral, unique and prominent part of the game than players will finally be forced to move fast and acquire targets fast.

 

This way players who actually understand the movement and mastered it will not complain about these 1 shot weapons, because it is very difficult to hit a target in the first place. Because I assure you, if players mastered the movement controls there would never be a complaint towards 1 shot sniper based weapons.

[Nighttide77]

Piercing bows are the 2-shot weapons.  If Snipers are 2 shot, then Bows have no place.  If snipers 2-shot, bows need to 1-shot.

 

At the same time, as it seems to stand, snipers 2-shot most everything except heavy frames...of which after the 2nd shot the heavy frame is left with a sliver of health, so you then need to swap to a spray weapon or use a power.

 

The Daikyu follows that pattern, as well as some bows.  It one-shots most everything but heavy frames, so against heavy frames you need to swap to a secondary or use a power to finish a foe.

 

If Snipetron is out-performing the Vectis, I'm pretty sure the sniptron needs to be brought down a notch or two.  I'm pretty sure "bolt-action" snipers should be at the top tier for snipers.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Nighttide77