Rhino's Rework Is Actually Pretty Lackluster.... He Needs To Be Buffed!

[Zarozian]

nonsense zar0

he's the best thing since domestic cats

you said it yourself like 100million times in skype

so inconsistent.. kek

Wut is dis? A KuroNeko? Confronting Zaro directly?!

 

What dimension am I in?! >;O Am I in a different universe?! Is it the end of the world already?! >;O

 

I always thought Julie would give in before you did! But oh my.....How things change when you're gone~ :>

[FireDemon11]

Because it in no way impedes rhino's mobility. WHAT i really would have liked from the rework is an aggro draw, perhaps attached to roar. It would produce better ability synergy as well, which is what DE has been focusing on lately

Rather than the roar having an aggro draw. I think roar should put the enemies into a panic state. It would make more sense than a roar causing aggro, but that's just my opinion

Edited December 14, 2015 by FireDemon11

[KuroNekoXlll]

Wut is dis? A KuroNeko? Confronting Zaro directly?!

 

What dimension am I in?! >;O Am I in a different universe?! Is it the end of the world already?! >;O

 

I always thought Julie would give in before you did! But oh my.....How things change when you're gone~ :>

things have changed, i noticed you admit to rhino's lackluster when im not around

you would never admit that your favorite frame was lame to me on skype

 

btw julie is here somewhere but she's a lurker 

 

well.. I took some time to read this thread, fun fun read as always. Weirdos bring such life to any forums they go  to

I don't wanna brag like taking statistics was a huge achievement for me but uuh Zaro; had you taken statistics, you would have certainly failed because you're completely data illiterate.

tl;dr

Edited December 14, 2015 by KuroNekoXlll

[Vargras]

But man you people really don't want Rhino to receive an armor buff really badly. Where is this determination coming from?

I'm sure people wouldn't mind an armor buff if it's warranted. You're wanting one purely for a hypothetical scenario. It's uncalled for, and thus, unnecessary.

[JuicyPop]

I'm in awe regarding the reaction of people to asking making rhino a little more tanky.

 

Chroma, trinity, mesa, valkyr and mirage? Oh yeah they deserver immorality TOTALY! Why ask?

 

But when you want to make rhino as tanky as them?

 

OMG U WANT IMMORTALITY BROKEN OP!!!1111!!111111

 

You realize that DE's balancing decisions and player opinions don't necessarily align, correct? I'm a Trinity main and I'm unhappy that she is still just a walking immortality/energy bot with very little active play to her kit.

 

I'd like for people to attempt to justify whatever buffs they propose, but I've yet to see one instance of that in this thread in regards to changes to Rhino's armor.

 

Pointing at other frames with an envious finger isn't a valid justification.

Edited December 14, 2015 by JuicyPop

[JuicyPop]

Ok, let's take trinity out the equation.

 

Justify valkyr, chroma mesa and mirage.

 

Do they deserve it as well?

 

If you want to discuss the balance of other frames, make a new thread.

 

This discussion is supposed to relate to Rhino's recent changes.

[Eftycchia]

Valkyr requires you to just charge in to keep her buffs up.

Chroma the same. He builds up his own benefits from taking damage.

Mirage, She's a trickster. Hiding in the shadows and dealing damage while being fabulous is her merit.

Mesa can only deflect up to 95% of projectile and ballistic damage, not melee damage.

 

Rhino has all that now.

 

Let's just admit it we want Iron Skin to return to its good ol' duration-based one now.

Edited December 14, 2015 by ViroVeteruscy

[JuicyPop]

Rhino's a tank that can't tank, his second ability is luckluster and dies fast, his buff is mediocre compared to others and his CC is the most basic CC possible.

 

What more do you want?

 

He's a tank insofar as people want him to be in their own head-canon. If DE isn't designing him with a 'tank role' in mind, then he simply isn't a tank.

 

If you want him to be a tank, then you need to make a thread with a re-design in mind, not a simple 'buffs please!' threadnaught.

Edited December 14, 2015 by JuicyPop

[JuicyPop]

Valkyr clicks on 1 button. There's no need to keep her buffs up.

And mirage's reason for invincibility is her "merit"? Yeah that's a good reason for god mode.

 

Mesa can just run backwards. You people are acting as if running backwards is impposible.

 

And no. We want iron skin to make rhino compare with the other frames.

 

Then what is his role? If we take his abilities one by one and compare them to others they still suck.

 

Charge has a delay at the beggining and end of his charge and in exchange knocks some enemies down and leaves you in the middle of an enemy crowd. Yay?

 

His iron skin is the worst damage absorbing/reduction/tank skill out of all the frames in the game.

 

His buff is mediocre at best. As other frames offer stronger and more versatile buffs.

 

His CC is the most borderline basic one in the game doing nothing but stunning for a limited duration, not to mention how prism costs less, lasts longer and has the same range as stomp.

 

And don't bring up that headcannon BS. Rhino being supposed to be a tank is no headcannon, it's what he was advertized as. It's not something rhino players came up with randomly one day.

"This is Rhino, an immovable force and highly resilient."

"With the right mods he becomes and almost unstoppable tank"

"Heavest warframe combining offensive and defense abilities"

 

 

 

Now please. Do tell me that those official descriptions are meant to signify anything other than a tank.

 

If you've managed to convince yourself that Roar and Stomp are mediocre, then I'm not really sure what would satisfy you. Propose some buffs to those skills if you would be so kind.

[dodyouserious]

299% strength maxed steel fiber and armored agility cast iron skin 3 bullets later my iron skin is gone and died

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

died without having a chance to cast iron skin again

Edited December 14, 2015 by xvxjiniwai

[sappinmahsentry]

For one, roar needs to be a multifunction ability like so many others already are. After rhino gains proper tanking capability, it needs to act as a taunt to draw fire away form allies, have the augment built in by default and cause an impact proc for minor grace period.

 

Stomp itself is, like I said, the most borderline basic CC possible considering we have ultis that blind, strip armor alongside stunning ect.

 

  All the other "cool stuff" is already taken by the majority of actuall CC frames. What I would do with it, is scrap it and replace it with another ability to aid in rhino's tanking, leaving his CC instead of abilities, to the actuall roar, that draws enemies to him using himself as the control.

 

Stomp needs a lot of work to offer something unique to the game.

Stomp doesn't need anything unique, if you actually knew how to make a stomp build you'd see it's among the best CC in the game. As you can lock down an INFINITE amount of enemies for more than 8 freaking seconds in a 25 meter range which you can increase through OE and Stretch. Oh, and it's spam-able. Stomp is by far Rhino's best skill, no matter how you buff everything else. No other ultimate absolutely deactivates enemies in such a long, unhindered by terrain range other than Mirage's Prism. But building for that absolutely destroys her other abilities, and melee enemies will hit you if you so much as make a tiny peep. How about you rethink your life choices, because Rhino may not be a tank, but he'll be something better. That something better is one of the best CC machines in the entire game. Oh, and you have a timer on your stomp so you know when to reactivate it.

[JuicyPop]

For one, roar needs to be a multifunction ability like so many others already are. After rhino gains proper tanking capability, it needs to act as a taunt to draw fire away form allies, have the augment built in by default and cause an impact proc for minor grace period.

 

Stomp itself is, like I said, the most borderline basic CC possible considering we have ultis that blind, strip armor alongside stunning ect.

 

  All the other "cool stuff" is already taken by the majority of actuall CC frames. What I would do with it, is scrap it and replace it with another ability to aid in rhino's tanking, leaving his CC instead of abilities, to the actuall roar, that draws enemies to him using himself as the control.

 

Stomp needs a lot of work to offer something unique to the game.

 

Additions to Roar might be reasonable, but I think you still have a skewed perspective on the relative power of Stomp.

 

If you would, please do go into detail on which ultimates offer an 8 second, 25 meter radius hard CC effect that can be recast to catch new arrivals and can be reliably chained to keep an area in permanent lockdown?

 

I'm sure you'll find many forms of soft CC that appear to offer as much on the surface, but most of these still allow enemies to move in some fashion, to attack nearby players or to throw explosives among other actions. The only similar forms of CC that I can think of are Crush and Sound Quake, which require both frames to be locked in place while casting. Tentacle Swarm and Tornado may also seem to be similar, but as you should be well aware, they are both notoriously unreliable.

 

The only abilities that can seriously contend with Stomp are stuck onto dedicated CC frames such as Vauban or true tanks such as Frost and even those have trade-offs and limitations.

Edited December 14, 2015 by JuicyPop

[NogginMasher]

The buffs to iron skin don't need to be dramatic.

I propose two things: buff armor modestly, to 300-450 range

Make iron skin innately recast-able like Frost's snow globe. The iron shrapnel augment would only add damage and CC on the recasts.

Just add those two things, and I think he'd be fine.

Arguments can be made that a powerful iron skin would trivialize content, but the same could be said for any incredibly effective skill. Valkyr's hysteria, Chroma's stupendous armor potential, Mesa's 95% damage reduction all make low to mid level content rather easy. That just means the skill is working rather well. If iron skin was recast-able like Frosts snow globe wherein you could effectively add HP to iron skin without replacing it, that by itself would make the skill more viable. Not asking for Valkyr's invincibility or reverting back to a minute of invincibility from days of old, just a sensible change to make it recast-able.

[JuicyPop]

[...]

 

Prism is a blind and is therefore soft CC, refer to my earlier comment.

 

Avalanche has a base 15m range [and a 2.5s cast time] versus 25m for Stomp. That's a fair trade off for extra utility and damage in my opinion. 

 

Radial Disarm [paired with ID] is probably the best soft CC in the game and is the primary reason that Loki is still considered by many to be the best frame. If Stomp needs a rework simply because it's 'inferior' to RD then it can get in line with literally every other CC ability in the game.

Edited December 14, 2015 by JuicyPop

[Machayna]

Just cast iron skin and shoot from Penta between your legs.

Tactical potato on youtube just did a video on this.  I agree with the people who have said he's much better than he was.  Even without the self damage iron skin trick I haven't really had any issues getting through any mission up through T4 void.  Iron skin seems to hold just fine.  Haven't tried him in sorties yet but I imagine he'd be fine there as well.  I think he's in a decent place now.

[JuicyPop]

Prism completely immobilizes enemies leaving them open to oneshots while they are unable to do anything (like attack move or dodge). Why doesen't that count?

 

I thought hard cc was stun and soft cc was reduction of ability to fight (ect molecular prime, ice wave, ect).

 

Radial disarm is in a league of its own. The point about it is, that the frames that do come toe to toe with RD offer something other than a temporary stun, which stomp lacks.

 

That's just down to different definitions coming from different games, etc.

 

Your definition is probably the more generalized, to be honest, and I should have specified what I meant beforehand.

Edited December 14, 2015 by JuicyPop

[Zarozian]

things have changed, i noticed you admit to rhino's lackluster when im not around

you would never admit that your favorite frame was lame to me on skype

 

btw julie is here somewhere but she's a lurker 

 

well.. I took some time to read this thread, fun fun read as always. Weirdos bring such life to any forums they go  to

I don't wanna brag like taking statistics was a huge achievement for me but uuh Zaro; had you taken statistics, you would have certainly failed because you're completely data illiterate.

tl;dr

Dat ho~

 

And nah I am only saying it now because the buff to him wasn't enough.

 

People call him a noob frame only cause he's both hard to use and because he's also easy to use, but then hard to master, he's designed in such a way now, that even endgame players can't make him strong/tankier with the best builds.

 

And nah I'm not data illiterate~ >;( The numbers don't show everything Kuro. It's like that professor from Harvard. Just because he went to and teaches at Harvard, doesn't mean he's actually smart at all, and then people found out how ignorant he really was when he lead all his students on some protest against the police like some hippy.

 

You're telling me the grade you got is really the grade you deserve? Whatever rubic they are grading based on doesn't factor in everything and nor is it fair. Someone whose clearly more intelligent but isn't able to do the work would receive a lower grade, while the person whose an complete nitwit, has his older sister whose already finished college. help him with his work, giving him a larger advantage over those students who try to do the work on their own using what they learn.

 

This is the same thing with Rhino. Those of you who don't play him extensively won't notice or understand certain things and how pathetic this buff to Iron Skin really is. It's like they only changed it and added some mechanics which made Iron Skin feel only a little bit stronger than what I usually use with my endgame build, except now i have to add a maxed Steel Fiber mod while sacrificing power strength for it! And based on this crappy formula that he has for his Iron Skin. I AM TELLING YOU. HE NEEDS MORE ARMOR.

 

But most people here who are against it just don't get it, cause they don't really play Rhino like that, nor do they use him for endgame either. What they do instead of using Rhino is use a mediocre Valkyr, Vauban, Loki. Excalibur, and Ash. Which leaves Rhino with nothing other than his ability to ignore procs and resistance to knockdowns. So i know for a fact that Iron Skin, for at least Rhino Prime, needs that buff of armor.

 

 

Also why are you even here? >; (

Edited December 14, 2015 by Zarozian

[Zarozian]

Alright dude you said it, you want him to have more armor -_-

You dont have to keep repeating same thing over and over.

 

You know~ The best politicians say the same things over and over in different ways until everyone is convinced and agrees with him.

 

Also it's not that I want him to have more armor. It's just that with this new formula with his Iron Skin he needs more armor.

[DSpite]

Alright dude you said it, you want him to have more armor -_-

You dont have to keep repeating same thing over and over.

 

Thing is, I play Rhino, and he does not need more Armour. As far as Iron Skin is concerned, it simply needs to be more flexible then "wait till zero, cast again". I don't know the EXACT way to make it better, but as it is right now, it's not quite right.

 

I mean, heck, I'd rather have it drop by 1 per second, and I would STILL like it better, at least on say 10% I'd wait it out, recast and go do something more dangerous then play peek-a-boo with 2-3 units to let them strip it off for a recast.

Edited December 14, 2015 by DSpite

[Zarozian]

Thing is, I play Rhino, and he does not need more Armour. As far as Iron Skin is concerned, it simply needs to be more flexible then "wait till zero, cast again". I don't know the EXACT way to make it better, but as it is right now, it's not quite right.

 

I mean, heck, I'd rather have it drop by 1 per second, and I would STILL like it better, at least on say 10% I'd wait it out, recast and go do something more dangerous then play peek-a-boo with 2-3 units to let them strip it off for a recast.

Then come up with a better idea then.

 

Cause you know for a fact in endgame having like 1-40% Iron Skin left can really screw you over on the next hit that you take.

 

The way I see is that adding more base armor to at least Rhino Prime only, would be the only solution, it's either that or changing the multiplier in his formula from 2.5x to 5x.

[JuicyPop]

You know~ The best politicians say the same things over and over in different ways until everyone is convinced and agrees with him.

 

Also it's not that I want him to have more armor. It's just that with this new formula with his Iron Skin he needs more armor.

 

It's just that with this new formula with his Iron Skin I want him to have more armor.

 

You have yet to demonstrate that there is an explicit need for such a buff at a reasonable point of balance.

Edited December 14, 2015 by JuicyPop

[Zarozian]

It's just that with this new formula with his Iron Skin I want him to have more armor.

 

You have yet to demonstrate that there is an explicit need for such a buff at a reasonable point of balance.

Is it reasonable for Valkyr to have total invulnerability based on power efficiency?

 

Then why is it unreasonable for Rhino Prime to have more armor?

 

 

Coul you please explain me how the heck is that a solution, it does give you some more durability of course when skin gets down to mybe ease it a bit for you but you still have to deal with the same problem.

 

That's exactly what's needed and exactly why it's reasonable to buff armor.

 

You just answered it.

[GnosticCat]

Is it reasonable for Valkyr to have total invulnerability based on power efficiency?

 

Then why is it unreasonable for Rhino Prime to have more armor?

 

 

 

That's exactly what's needed and exactly why it's reasonable to buff armor.

 

You just answered it.

According to this problem is not armor, but other frames. If Valkyr's Hysteria got removed then Rhino will be fine?

[JuicyPop]

Is it reasonable for Valkyr to have total invulnerability based on power efficiency?

 

Then why is it unreasonable for Rhino Prime to have more armor?

 

Envy isn't a valid method of justification. Adding to that, you shouldn't assume that Valkyr is in a perfectly acceptable state for DE or the community at large.

Edited December 14, 2015 by JuicyPop

[Zarozian]

According to this problem is not armor, but other frames. If Valkyr's Hysteria got removed then Rhino will be fine?

I wouldn't want to bring that down on anyone who loves Valkyr.

 

My love for Rhino shouldn't result in a nerf to other frames or it's complete removal.

 

There's a way we can all be happy. And that's to buff Rhino Prime's armor.

 

Am I right or am I wrong?